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Potatohead
09/15/2016, 09:19 AM
About a week ago, most of my acros started having almost no polyp extension, and I really don't know why. They still seem to be growing and overall fine, but they're not as fun to look at. I really don't know what has happened. I can think of three things that changed;

- I turned my lights up a very small amount, about 2 or 3%. I have since turned them back down and waiting on results.

- I dose aminos/trace elements in small amounts, once a week. I did this a day or two before the extension went away

- New batch of salt seems to have higher mag than the old one, and my mag is about 80 - 100 ppm higher than I had it before (it's now at 1440).

All my other parameters are stable and in normal range.

Does any of this sound like it would cause it? I don't have any nippy fish either.

vinhle00
09/15/2016, 09:29 AM
Have you gotten new corals in the past few months? I would check for bugs, aefw.

Potatohead
09/15/2016, 09:36 AM
I forgot to mention I have done that too :headwallblue:. I will keep checking but I don't see anything in there. One of the corals that actually hasn't changed much is a mille and I hear those are bad for bugs.

SPS911
09/15/2016, 10:03 AM
So odd, because I was about to post the same thread. My initial thought always goes to pests but I QT and have inspected them with a ogles mesoscope and they are clean. Looking forward to others ideas

vinhle00
09/15/2016, 10:07 AM
What kind of lighting do you have? What about recent change out or addition of GFO?

Potatohead
09/15/2016, 10:50 AM
What kind of lighting do you have? What about recent change out or addition of GFO?

LED/T5 setup. I have been running the LED's (AI's) at about 75 - 80% for a while, I felt the tank was too dim and shimmery and some acros were brownish so I added the T5's maybe six weeks ago and have been turning them up about ten minutes every 3-4 days. Right now I am at 2 3/4 hours with them. I have no signs of bleaching, and color is better. I have been running GFO on the tank since day one, phosphate is typically in the .01 - .04 range depending on how much I feed.

Temp - 78
Ph 8.0 - 8.2 depending on time of day
Salinity - 1.0255
Calcium 420 - 430
Alk - 8.0 - 8.1 (I test this 5-6 times a week and it's always this amount, to the point I thought my Hanna was fubarred but I double checked it last night against a know sample at 6.8, and it was correct. In the last two months I may have had two or three tests at 7.8 - 7.9). I'm using kalk in my top off at 1/2 saturation.
Mag - 1440
Nitrate - 6-8
Phosphate - last night was .042 one hour after I fed pretty heavily.


¯\_(ツ)_/¯

vinhle00
09/15/2016, 11:08 AM
At this point i would assume its the light. i would go much slower on the changes.

dieselkeeper
09/15/2016, 11:17 AM
Any angel fish? I have an acan colony that had polyp extension 24/7. Until I added a swallowtail angel. Which is supposed to be reef safe. A day or two after adding her, the acan colony had no more polyp extension. Only coral in the tank that lost it. I watched for a week until I caught the angel in the act.

Potatohead
09/15/2016, 11:35 AM
At this point i would assume its the light. i would go much slower on the changes.

OK, I'll scale it back a bit more and go slower. I thought I was going pretty slow already :o

Potatohead
09/15/2016, 11:35 AM
Any angel fish? I have an acan colony that had polyp extension 24/7. Until I added a swallowtail angel. Which is supposed to be reef safe. A day or two after adding her, the acan colony had no more polyp extension. Only coral in the tank that lost it. I watched for a week until I caught the angel in the act.

Nope. Two clowns, six line, azure damsel and that's it. All my LPS are still opening like normal.

markalot
09/15/2016, 11:38 AM
Spy on the tank at night, or very early in the morning and see if you have polyp extension. If so then someone or something is nipping, otherwise keep looking for a source. If everything lost extension at once I might suspect either a contaminant or possibly electrical. Any cheap pumps you can afford to unplug for a few days to see if anything changes?

Potatohead
09/15/2016, 12:37 PM
I have a good multimeter, if I check the water for voltage, is there normally any at all? What number would be considered maximum?

Potatohead
09/15/2016, 01:31 PM
Doing some reading it looks like if there was stray voltage, the GFCI would trip (which I do have my tanks on). I also put my hands in the tank a lot to get test water and never had a problem. I'll try lowering the light levels and bringing them up more slowly.

bobssecrtsn
09/15/2016, 06:50 PM
Have you recently replaced carbon? That may be something to consider

Potatohead
09/15/2016, 07:30 PM
Have you recently replaced carbon? That may be something to consider

No it's about three weeks old :(

Potatohead
09/15/2016, 08:13 PM
I don't know what is going on. I have a purple efflo and a green birdsnest side by side, and some brown algae has started growing on the tips I know is a bad sign. I just tried to blow it off with a turkey baster and tissue/polyps came off of them. Just a week ago they were doing (what seemed) great. :sad2:

Potatohead
09/15/2016, 09:59 PM
Talking to myself (lol) but I decided to turn everything down for a couple weeks and see what happens. Turned my LED's down 7-8%, cut the T5 photoperiod by 30 mins, and raised them a couple inches. I guess now we wait and see.

bps619
09/16/2016, 12:35 AM
This might now be it but recently I had no PE and rtn/stn on my acros. Come to find out it was because of my rodi. My membrane was toasted. I did some Water changes with the LFS rodi and it seemed to bounce back. Got my color and PE back. Something to think about it and good luck.

Grant W
09/16/2016, 01:19 AM
Mag over normal range can give a bit of a burn. Maybe drop back to 1350 range.

Potatohead
09/16/2016, 10:33 AM
This might now be it but recently I had no PE and rtn/stn on my acros. Come to find out it was because of my rodi. My membrane was toasted. I did some Water changes with the LFS rodi and it seemed to bounce back. Got my color and PE back. Something to think about it and good luck.

Checked that, it's ok, still testing zero. My tap is only 14 to begin with.

Mag over normal range can give a bit of a burn. Maybe drop back to 1350 range.

In the process but it's a bit tough since the salt is mid 1400's when mixed. I could mix in a lower mag content salt I guess.

I do think it was lighting for two reasons - Any of the damaged polyps on my birdsnest are on the top side, and my red planet had some green on the base until a couple weeks ago when it started to turn lighter red, and then a few days later the polyp extension stopped. I have a green monti cap that is a little faded also. My tank doesn't look at all that bright but I guess LED's are pretty strong. I am going to leave at the new lowered setting are for at least two weeks and observe, and then increase my T5 photoperiod slowly without touching LED intensity.

Reel North
09/17/2016, 05:42 PM
Nitrates and po4 are low too. I run my sps like a dirty pig lol.

I haven't really tested po4 for a long time, but I clean the glass maybe every 5-7 days! I have chaeto in my fuge that isn't actually doing very well right now ( no nutrients) but my sps is lit right up and I can literally see the growth daily.

I feed a TON. Equivalent of 4-5 cubes of mysis, a clip of nori, and 4 feelings of pellets.

If you have changed salt (why?) and your mag jumped, odds are there are some minerals or other inclusion in the other salt that is now missing and the corals don't like it.

I used to mess around with my tank a lot.

I went back to radiums with a reefbrite xho and everything took right off.

Stop adjusting and changing, and feed feed feed.

I don't even use carbon or gfo.

Take the carbon off. Difference might surprise you

Potatohead
09/17/2016, 10:26 PM
You're not the first I've heard that thinks dirty is better. The ULNS movement that has been popular seems to be being challenged lately. I'm trying to stay somewhere in the middle.

My problem was/is definitely lighting. Thinking back there were some signs that I attributed to something else at the time, and was simply wrong. I also thought if it was too much light the corals would be turning white but with LED that doesn't seem to be the case. The tank also looks quite dim so it's really deceiving. I don't know if there's any way to brighten a tank without adding par, that may be a dumb question. About half my acros now have at least one burnt tip or small spot of stn :mad:. A few were throwing mesenterial filaments today also. I have a bit of brown algae on a few tips, should I just let them do their thing or should I cut the tips off? I don't want to stress them any more.

I tested my water again today and everything is basically the same, but alk went to 8.3 for the first time in forever I am assuming because nothing is growing anymore, so I took the kalk offline for now. I set the LED's about 15% lower now and reduced the T5's to two hours, and also raised them.

Right now kinda bummed and ticked at myself, but I'm not going to give up... I think most of them still have a fighting chance.

andy67
09/17/2016, 10:44 PM
At this point I think I would wait it out for a couple of weeks and see if you see any changes.

Potatohead
09/18/2016, 01:10 AM
At this point I think I would wait it out for a couple of weeks and see if you see any changes.

Ok, I'll leave them alone. Thanks

Potatohead
09/30/2016, 09:44 PM
Well, here we are almost a couple weeks later... About half my SPS is slowly crashing, I can't figure out why. I reduced the lights even more but I'm starting to wonder if that was even the issue because things are not slowing down. I have four or five corals that seem to be doing fine , but the other day it was seven to eight and now a couple more are stn'ing from the base. I have checked for pests and don't see any, only thing I see at night are snails and pods, and I have four millepora which are apparently bad for pests, and all four are among the corals that are seemingly doing ok. I doubt it's related but I'm getting some brown turf algae growth on the back glass I never got before also. I have been feeding more in an attempt to help the corals heal, so I guess that's probably why.

I'm really at a loss and will probably end up removing a bunch of corals this weekend. My euphyllia, acans and zoas all still appear to be basically normal.

bobssecrtsn
10/01/2016, 08:12 AM
I picture would help a lot , tell us exactly what you do as far as husbandry and salt brand. Picture of the coral that's not doing well.

spkennyva
10/01/2016, 11:17 AM
How old is the tank?
How long were the acros in the tank before you started noticing issues?
What kind of flow is in the tank?

Potatohead
10/02/2016, 08:01 PM
I picture would help a lot , tell us exactly what you do as far as husbandry and salt brand. Picture of the coral that's not doing well.

I don't know how much pics would help, it looks like normal stn. I tore all the bad stuff out this weekend, I am down to about 3/8 the SPS I used to have. I tried fragging one of my acros since it was only stn at the base, one of those two frags died overnight. Everything I removed I gave at least 10-14 days and no signs of slowing down. I do still have some SPS that are seemingly fine (even growing) and some that look like they're just hanging on.

I am using Aquaforest reef salt and have since my cycle was finished. I do all the normal stuff, 10% water change every 10-12 days, filter sock change every 3-5 days, skimmer cup emptied every 3-5 days, etc.


How old is the tank?
How long were the acros in the tank before you started noticing issues?
What kind of flow is in the tank?


Tank finished cycle 4.5 months ago

Some have been in the tank a good three months and are doing ok, some are in the tank two weeks and start to have issues... And vice versa

Flow is two MP10's, tank is a 36g with about 45g system. I use mostly reef crest with some nutrient transport and tidal swell mixed in for two hours each per day. They max out at 70%. My lights are two AI Primes and two T5 supplements (one blue plus, one coral plus)

I mean I can see having issues with acros if something goes off but I have even had problems with a birdsnest, monti cap and a digitata which is just bad. I also have an encrusting monti currently not looking so hot. I'll do full testing a bit later tonight.

Grant W
10/02/2016, 10:30 PM
Tank is small and young my friend. Probably too soon for any really delicate sps. Take your time until it gets some age on it.

Potatohead
10/03/2016, 12:40 AM
Tank is small and young my friend. Probably too soon for any really delicate sps. Take your time until it gets some age on it.

I have to admit I thought this was all a bunch of hooey, and that with good husbandry and good parameters it would be fine... Maybe there's something to it because everything I can measure seems fine. Just tested everything tonight;

Temp 78.0-78.5
Salinity 1.0255
Cal 420
Alk Salifert says 7.6, Hanna says 8.0-8.1, this is always rock stable because no growth (lol)
Mag 1400
Nitrate 6-8
Phos .033

I guess not much left to do other than wait it all out and see what happens. I'm discouraged but not ready to give up yet.

Pife
10/03/2016, 07:02 AM
Put a poly pad in to see if it pulls anything out. Never know if you have something weird in the water

nmotz
10/03/2016, 08:08 AM
I guess not much left to do other than wait it all out and see what happens. I'm discouraged but not ready to give up yet.

I wouldn't despair. My tank behaved similarly to yours until it began to mature. My ALK/Ca are usually stable, but SPS are really sensitive to all kinds of different stuff. Honestly, I don't think the anecdotal stuff most of us know is even half the story. It's just the best we can do.

Keep parameters stable, but try not to mess with it too much. Keep your hands out of the tank, just let it be. It's tough, but you might just need to give it time. If this hobby can teach you patience, it's been worthwhile. And we all feel your pain, don't worry!

rovster
10/03/2016, 08:48 AM
I'll share what has happened in my own tank and that I've observed over the last few years of SPS keeping. Any time a change is made (light schedule, adding carbon dosing, anything....) sometimes SPS takes a few days to adjust. They stall out. If your cal/alk is not compensated and followed carefully during the few days after you can get a push in the upward direction of parameters. Usually it's not much but seems enough to cause issues. Birds nest and montis are first to suffer followed by acros. This starts a chain reaction that sends the tank into a slow downward tail spin. Mr. Reefer freaks out and starts to "do stuff" which further exacerbates the problem.

What to do then? Assuming you ruled out all the other stuff the answer is do nothing and watch your acros slowly decline. I know it's hard but at some point assuming this is what's going on they'll stop getting worse and then turn around. I've seen my tank comeback from what looked like an imminent graveyard to great again. The catch is this takes months but you have to let it happen. A month in if your parameters are good and you are second guessing yourself throw a new acro in there to see what happens. Sometimes the new ones do great because they don't carry baggage. While tank is recovering stop dosers and ca reactors until it's apparent tank is sucking it up again.

Hope this helps...

Scorpius
10/03/2016, 09:25 AM
4.5 month old tank is wayyyyy to early for any sps unless you are a seasoned sps reefer. Sps I have learned like a mature stable tank. Wait one year before trying sps. Been there done that.

Grant W
10/03/2016, 09:59 AM
Try a Digitata or something really tough for a while.

MichaelW
10/03/2016, 01:58 PM
I feel a little differently about the tank needing to be like a year before keeping sps. I started my new tank with 100% dry rock and sand, a bottled bacteria product and I moved sps from my 90 into it within 2 weeks. Didn't loose a single one of those pieces from the move. If the water is stable and you keep it stable that is all that matters. Acros don't know how old your tank is it makes no difference to them. Now I am not saying it's as easy to keep the water stable in a new tank as an old tank, but if the water is stable than its no worry about how many months old it is

spkennyva
10/03/2016, 04:33 PM
I concur with those that say its takes time. I started my current tank with dry rock and a few small pieces of live rock (no bacteria) and it took probably more than 9 months (closer to 1 year) before an acro would survive. My tank is now three years old and grows acros very well - I'm still working on color, but growth has come along. I suspect that the real masters can achieve success in much shorter time, but for us mere morals, patience is key.

Potatohead
10/03/2016, 09:41 PM
Try a Digitata or something really tough for a while.

Already had one that went up in smoke. It was super bizarre too because I put it in the tank and it was growing like crazy, instantly. Two weeks later it stalled out and slowly died over the next two weeks.


I feel a little differently about the tank needing to be like a year before keeping sps. I started my new tank with 100% dry rock and sand, a bottled bacteria product and I moved sps from my 90 into it within 2 weeks. Didn't loose a single one of those pieces from the move. If the water is stable and you keep it stable that is all that matters. Acros don't know how old your tank is it makes no difference to them. Now I am not saying it's as easy to keep the water stable in a new tank as an old tank, but if the water is stable than its no worry about how many months old it is

I concur with those that say its takes time. I started my current tank with dry rock and a few small pieces of live rock (no bacteria) and it took probably more than 9 months (closer to 1 year) before an acro would survive. My tank is now three years old and grows acros very well - I'm still working on color, but growth has come along. I suspect that the real masters can achieve success in much shorter time, but for us mere morals, patience is key.

This is why it's confusing.

I know myself and I am pretty pedantic, probably too much so. I am not the type to let things go. I am totally honest saying I've never missed a water change, never left a sock in too long, etc. When things were going ok I checked my alk at least 5-6 times a week and it was always 7.9 - 8.1 on my Hanna. The only thing I ever dosed was some kalk in my topoff but only 1/4 saturation. I stopped it when this all started.

The only thing I am guilty of perhaps is ramping my lights too quickly, which felt like forever (lol), or maybe not acclimating long enough, and probably trying too many things at once after I started having issues. Keep in mind I do have three Euphyllia in this tank doing great, a few acans which are growing and three colonies of zoas that are ridiculous and getting 1-2 new heads each a day. I know they are easier to keep but I find it hard to believe I have a major water issue with these other corals seemingly thriving.

I did start my tank with dry rock and live sand. Two of my zoa colonies are on live rocks but they were not added until after cycling. I have had some green coralline for a couple months but the purple is very slowly coming just in the last week or so, just a few spots on the rocks and nothing on the glass yet. I don't know if that means anything or not.

In any event thank you for the opinions, this is a good thread and learning a lot.

Rakie
10/03/2016, 10:16 PM
4.5 month old tank is wayyyyy to early for any sps unless you are a seasoned sps reefer. Sps I have learned like a mature stable tank. Wait one year before trying sps. Been there done that.

Sorry if this sounds argumentative, that's not what I'm trying to do :)

My tank had SPS in it literally weeks after my cycle, all were/are thriving. And I am far from a seasoned reefer -- Check my joined forum date -- that was the last time I kept a SW tank, and back then I was literally using lunch money.

To top it off, my tank is a 29g Biocube -- Things move QUICK in a small tank like this. And as a reefer with zero experience in SPS, in the most unstable circumstances, learning the whole way, in a brand new system. I had SPS growing and coloring up.. And I did everything wrong and still haven't learned all my lessons yet.

The understanding of reefs, husbandry, and water chemistry has evolved *so* much since I was a kid. 10 years ago what you are saying was sage advice -- Today it's a bit of an old wives tale. The technology and understanding is there, you just got to investigate. The only thing I have had die on me are Zoa's. I've had two beautiful mini colonies growing like crazy then suddenly they just shrank away. Of course they were the Gold Mauls and Blue Rhino's, not the BBEB/BamBams -_-

It took *me* about a year to learn what I was doing properly, but through all my mistakes the SPS kept encrusting, growing, and coloring up. Things that I did absolutely put temporary halts on growth, messed up colors, etc etc. But none of that was due to the tank lacking maturity.

Grant W
10/03/2016, 11:20 PM
Then analyse what changed or you did differantly just prior to the decline.

denash24
10/04/2016, 12:22 AM
My advice comes a bit late for you but I would say stray voltage even in small amounts will affect SPS, also if you're using any food clips or pumps with magnets, definitely inspect them for rust. Then lastly don't make any major changes, unfortunately the best thing to do if you can't pinpoint out the problem is too let it be and ride it out, continue doing your normal routine. Remember stability is key for SPS

Esper
10/04/2016, 01:26 AM
You need to do larger water changes than 10% weekly.

Read Randy's article: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/#4


Randy Holmes-Farley
Clearly, larger water changes are much more effective than smaller changes for a fixed number of such changes.

Whatever your problem is, large water changes with good water will help...at least temporarily. If you have a buildup of something or a depletion of something, at least you will fix that problem. Return to baseline when it comes to water quality. The parameters you are testing for look fine, so it must be something you aren't testing for. It may be something you cannot test. Just do a massive water change to rule this variable out.

It also sounds like you have a lot of different coral species in a small tank. Do you run carbon? You may want to get rid of everything that isn't SPS to minimize chemical warfare between different corals.

A picture would REALLY help. Show us your whole setup. You never know what someone will spot.

Scorpius
10/04/2016, 01:11 PM
Sorry if this sounds argumentative, that's not what I'm trying to do :)

My tank had SPS in it literally weeks after my cycle, all were/are thriving. And I am far from a seasoned reefer -- Check my joined forum date -- that was the last time I kept a SW tank, and back then I was literally using lunch money.

To top it off, my tank is a 29g Biocube -- Things move QUICK in a small tank like this. And as a reefer with zero experience in SPS, in the most unstable circumstances, learning the whole way, in a brand new system. I had SPS growing and coloring up.. And I did everything wrong and still haven't learned all my lessons yet.

The understanding of reefs, husbandry, and water chemistry has evolved *so* much since I was a kid. 10 years ago what you are saying was sage advice -- Today it's a bit of an old wives tale. The technology and understanding is there, you just got to investigate. The only thing I have had die on me are Zoa's. I've had two beautiful mini colonies growing like crazy then suddenly they just shrank away. Of course they were the Gold Mauls and Blue Rhino's, not the BBEB/BamBams -_-

It took *me* about a year to learn what I was doing properly, but through all my mistakes the SPS kept encrusting, growing, and coloring up. Things that I did absolutely put temporary halts on growth, messed up colors, etc etc. But none of that was due to the tank lacking maturity.
Whelp. Keeping trying to grow sps in a young tank then. You're going to lose a lot of money in the process until your tank matures and stabilizes. Been there and done that myself. It sucks.

Rakie
10/04/2016, 04:01 PM
Whelp. Keeping trying to grow sps in a young tank then.

My tank is now a year old, it's had no problems since cycle to today.

You're going to lose a lot of money in the process until your tank matures and stabilizes.

Between last year and now I've lost zero SPS. All are growing and have been from tiny frags.

I feel where you're coming from, but as a novice with zero experience whose screwed up the whole way down the path -- Nothing you said was true.

I honestly don't know how people kill SPS. I've done everything to them, they just keep growing. High light, low light, light burn, alk drop, alk spike, salinity spike and drop, dropped the corals, sudden temp change, sudden Temp+Alk+Salinity change, Starved 'em, overfed the tank, etc etc.

They refuse to die. Even my wild aussie acro's won't die. The technology is readily available and fairly priced -- All I learned I learned from RC.

Potatohead
10/05/2016, 12:21 AM
You need to do larger water changes than 10% weekly.

Read Randy's article: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/#4



Whatever your problem is, large water changes with good water will help...at least temporarily. If you have a buildup of something or a depletion of something, at least you will fix that problem. Return to baseline when it comes to water quality. The parameters you are testing for look fine, so it must be something you aren't testing for. It may be something you cannot test. Just do a massive water change to rule this variable out.

It also sounds like you have a lot of different coral species in a small tank. Do you run carbon? You may want to get rid of everything that isn't SPS to minimize chemical warfare between different corals.

A picture would REALLY help. Show us your whole setup. You never know what someone will spot.

Yes I run carbon, I have since I added any livestock. I have about eight SPS frags remaining ranging from doing ok to still growing. Oddly, four are millepora... Along with a setosa, a pink lemonade, a caroliniana, and another unnamed acro. I had maybe fifteen in there spaced 4-5" apart about a month ago.

I have checked my pumps and they are fine, and they're no older than the tank so I wouldn't expect a problem there but I checked anyway. I have a temp probe and it's ok too. I truly am at a loss and am just going to leave it as is, let it run and see how things go. I don't mind the suggestion of doing more water changes, I'll probably try it but I'm doubtful it will do much. Let's hope I guess.


My tank is now a year old, it's had no problems since cycle to today.



Between last year and now I've lost zero SPS. All are growing and have been from tiny frags.

I feel where you're coming from, but as a novice with zero experience whose screwed up the whole way down the path -- Nothing you said was true.

I honestly don't know how people kill SPS. I've done everything to them, they just keep growing. High light, low light, light burn, alk drop, alk spike, salinity spike and drop, dropped the corals, sudden temp change, sudden Temp+Alk+Salinity change, Starved 'em, overfed the tank, etc etc.

They refuse to die. Even my wild aussie acro's won't die. The technology is readily available and fairly priced -- All I learned I learned from RC.

Take it elsewhere please. You're clearly more awesome than any other SPS keeper ever and I'd like to continue the great discussion and help that is occurring in this thread without my toes being stomped on. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.

Rakie
10/05/2016, 05:51 PM
Take it elsewhere please. You're clearly more awesome than any other SPS keeper ever and I'd like to continue the great discussion and help that is occurring in this thread without my toes being stomped on. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.


I'm not sure why you're giving me attitude -- I'm arguing against the guy giving crap advise, on your behalf, because he's telling you there's nothing you can do, and I'm saying he's wrong -- that you can succeed without issue.

Think about all those people who upgrade their tanks -- Many, many people upgrade tanks and take their corals and mount them on brand new rocks, in brand new tanks, just after cycle is complete. Nobody sets up a new tank and gives it 1-2 years to mature before transferring their livestock over.

I guess if you want that guy whose telling you to give up and quit to stay and help, then I sincerely apologize for trying to stand up for you, and help point out that what he said was inaccurate, and not helpful.

Here's his advice, in case you missed it.

4.5 month old tank is wayyyyy to early for any sps unless you are a seasoned sps reefer. Sps I have learned like a mature stable tank. Wait one year before trying sps. Been there done that.

Whelp. Keeping trying to grow sps in a young tank then. You're going to lose a lot of money in the process until your tank matures and stabilizes. Been there and done that myself. It sucks.

Potatohead
10/05/2016, 09:51 PM
I'm not sure why you're giving me attitude

Really?

All advice from anybody aside, you stated this;


I honestly don't know how people kill SPS. I've done everything to them, they just keep growing. High light, low light, light burn, alk drop, alk spike, salinity spike and drop, dropped the corals, sudden temp change, sudden Temp+Alk+Salinity change, Starved 'em, overfed the tank, etc etc.

They refuse to die. Even my wild aussie acro's won't die. The technology is readily available and fairly priced -- All I learned I learned from RC.

So forgive me for believing that is a dig. I have read and researched countless hours into to this before I even started, just as you have. I am not new to fish keeping, not by a long shot, but am new to reefing. There are people on both sides of the fence when it comes to whether or not a new tank can sustain SPS, and I'm not going to call anyone an idiot or say they're giving bad advice for feeling the opposite I do. When I started out I felt firmly in your camp after doing many hours of research. However knowing myself and knowing I don't mess around and tend to do things I set my mind to well, I'm really struggling with what has happened here and simply trying to come to a conclusion about what happened... So I want to hear all sides. You're right in that there are many examples of SPS tanks taking off right away, but there are also many the opposite, and I can't believe it's all bad husbandry.


Anyway...

I took some pics while doing a water change tonight. They're just potato pics so nothing awesome. The only thing in the tank seemingly still maybe dying is the burgundy encrusting monti, algae started growing on it a few days ago and it has little polyp extension. In the last pic the green mille has only been in the tank a few weeks, and the pink one behind it for 2-3 months and has probably grown at least 50% larger.


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa1/RabidRabbit33/56F141AC-ABD4-4AE9-A8C3-CECC802397E4_zpsz5xw4e5o.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/RabidRabbit33/media/56F141AC-ABD4-4AE9-A8C3-CECC802397E4_zpsz5xw4e5o.jpg.html)

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa1/RabidRabbit33/407D1D95-F48B-49F0-A170-69DE14199A12_zpsag15wplv.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/RabidRabbit33/media/407D1D95-F48B-49F0-A170-69DE14199A12_zpsag15wplv.jpg.html)

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa1/RabidRabbit33/4636BECF-9498-475F-B93F-359303A413DF_zpsu872cr9n.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/RabidRabbit33/media/4636BECF-9498-475F-B93F-359303A413DF_zpsu872cr9n.jpg.html)

Marq
10/07/2016, 11:22 AM
Really?

All advice from anybody aside, you stated this;



So forgive me for believing that is a dig. I have read and researched countless hours into to this before I even started, just as you have. I am not new to fish keeping, not by a long shot, but am new to reefing. There are people on both sides of the fence when it comes to whether or not a new tank can sustain SPS, and I'm not going to call anyone an idiot or say they're giving bad advice for feeling the opposite I do. When I started out I felt firmly in your camp after doing many hours of research. However knowing myself and knowing I don't mess around and tend to do things I set my mind to well, I'm really struggling with what has happened here and simply trying to come to a conclusion about what happened... So I want to hear all sides. You're right in that there are many examples of SPS tanks taking off right away, but there are also many the opposite, and I can't believe it's all bad husbandry.


Anyway...

I took some pics while doing a water change tonight. They're just potato pics so nothing awesome. The only thing in the tank seemingly still maybe dying is the burgundy encrusting monti, algae started growing on it a few days ago and it has little polyp extension. In the last pic the green mille has only been in the tank a few weeks, and the pink one behind it for 2-3 months and has probably grown at least 50% larger.


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa1/RabidRabbit33/56F141AC-ABD4-4AE9-A8C3-CECC802397E4_zpsz5xw4e5o.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/RabidRabbit33/media/56F141AC-ABD4-4AE9-A8C3-CECC802397E4_zpsz5xw4e5o.jpg.html)

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa1/RabidRabbit33/407D1D95-F48B-49F0-A170-69DE14199A12_zpsag15wplv.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/RabidRabbit33/media/407D1D95-F48B-49F0-A170-69DE14199A12_zpsag15wplv.jpg.html)

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa1/RabidRabbit33/4636BECF-9498-475F-B93F-359303A413DF_zpsu872cr9n.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/RabidRabbit33/media/4636BECF-9498-475F-B93F-359303A413DF_zpsu872cr9n.jpg.html)

I think that a lot of time things can just go downhill in a reef tank and it's related to something we just can't test for or a process that we do not understand well. But I think that general consensus when it comes to reef keeping is that a mature tank gives you the best chance for growing coral.

Just because someone is able to grow SPS in their tank after 3 months does not mean that everyone can do it. This is the exception rather than the rule. There is always going to be exceptions to all rules. If someone say that you should wait a year for your tank to mature to try acroporas, someone from Missouri is going to post that he did it in only 4 weeks. You can try growing SPS in a 4 week old tank but you will likely be throwing money away.

When all else seem to fail, try just giving your tank time to really mature and keep up with great husbandry.

vinhle00
10/07/2016, 12:38 PM
The rocks looks really new and the tank seems to be going through early stages of algae. Theres no coralline algae growth at all, while some corals don't mind other more finicky ones will have problems. I'm going to just lean towards the tank is just not matured.

vinhle00
10/07/2016, 12:42 PM
[QUOTE=Rakie;24763479]

"Think about all those people who upgrade their tanks -- Many, many people upgrade tanks and take their corals and mount them on brand new rocks, in brand new tanks, just after cycle is complete. Nobody sets up a new tank and gives it 1-2 years to mature before transferring their livestock over."

It's true that some people have success in survivability when doing a tank transfer but if you ever look closely after a transfer the corals were all either browned out or about to rtn. After the transfer it would take months for colors to come back and not all of them report loses here and there while the corals recovers.

Potatohead
10/08/2016, 12:09 PM
There is some purple coralline starting but it is really slow. There has been some green on the rocks for a while that is hard and won't wipe off, I think that's coralline also but maybe not the good kind. The last pic I posted you can see some purple in the top left of the pic. I noticed yesterday a couple more are starting to stn. The green one I recently added just before this all happened however seems to be doing well and still with good polyp extension so I believe/hope the bad ones are just being affected from something that happened a while back or some type of swing that occurred. I have noticed in the last couple months a big rise in both sponges and spirorbid worms, but then their numbers really went back down, I now have maybe 1/3 of the peak number. Also the algae that I complained about earlier in the thread on the back glass is almost gone I'm sure because of my lighting intensity, but I don't really know if these would cause swings that could affect coral. I also had a ton of baby stomatella snails at one point but I haven't looked at night in a while, but I bet a bunch of those died off too. I guess that's the mystery of new tank syndrome.

Thanks again for the help and I will report back in a few weeks. My canary is the green mille, if something starts to happen with that I believe I can be pretty sure I have something in the water or some other oddity going on.

Potatohead
11/27/2016, 12:08 AM
So it has been about seven weeks since my last post... I'm trying to be patient, but this is frustrating stuff.

I haven't really lost anything else since then, but other than a zoa colony and some acans, nothing is really doing anything, it just exists or very, very slowly recedes. None of my acros have any polyp extension except one and it's minimal. I have inspected until I am cross eyed and can't find any bugs. I did start to get some stn on my setosa, but I'm pretty sure it was from switching GFO brands and pulling some phosphate too quickly. I used to clean the glass every 3-4 days and now I can go like 10 days no problem, maybe more. A couple months ago I took out a green monti cap, I didn't realize at the time about a dime sized chunk was left behind, and that has recently in the last couple weeks started to take off... So go figure.

I run my LED's only at 35% for six hours with a two hour ramp on each end making ten hours total. I run the T5's right now at 4.25 hours and raising about five to ten minutes every week or two, I imagine I'll stop around 5 hours but depends on how the corals react.

The tank has now been cycled and running with fish and some corals for six months. I still have just a dozen or so small spots of corraline on the rocks (none on glass or powerheads or anything) and pretty much no other algae. I have been trying to feed a bit more because based on how clean my glass and rock stays maybe the water is too clean... Every time I broadcast feed though I seem to get an explosion of spirorbid worms, don't really know if that's something to be concerned about.

So I don't know, it just is. I'll give it another while, maybe six months or something but I'm not real optimistic at this point. It's like something happened about three months ago and everything just took a dive. I have been racking my brain but cannot remember anything out of the ordinary.

bobssecrtsn
11/27/2016, 02:12 AM
One quick question that I want to know. Did you double check your n03 readings with another kit? what kit are you using?


I ask because I literally read 23 pages of people dosing kn03 ( spectacide stump remover ) and majority of people have the same symptoms as you. first 2-3 weeks explode with growth and color ( usually its because the coral is using up their zoo.) and after that they start going downhill.

double check your nitrate reading with a good brand kit!

Potatohead
12/02/2016, 10:44 PM
One quick question that I want to know. Did you double check your n03 readings with another kit? what kit are you using?


I ask because I literally read 23 pages of people dosing kn03 ( spectacide stump remover ) and majority of people have the same symptoms as you. first 2-3 weeks explode with growth and color ( usually its because the coral is using up their zoo.) and after that they start going downhill.

double check your nitrate reading with a good brand kit!

Hi Bob

I originally had a (couple year old) Seachem kit and it was saying 3-5, I got a Nyos and it said more like ten. Now after using Nopox for a while, it is saying three. I'll probably get Salifert next because that's what is easiest to find here to compare, but I don't expect anything it or the ordinary. I wish/hope it's something that easy.

Potatohead
12/03/2016, 07:18 PM
Went and got a couple test kits today, Salifert nitrate reads the same as my Nyos with a level right around five. I also got a Potassium kit which I have never tested for before, and got in the 360-370 range. I guess that's a touch low but not enough to affect much?

Scorpius
12/03/2016, 11:46 PM
Went and got a couple test kits today, Salifert nitrate reads the same as my Nyos with a level right around five. I also got a Potassium kit which I have never tested for before, and got in the 360-370 range. I guess that's a touch low but not enough to affect much?

I've never had issues with potassium being 360-370 on my system. Acropora grow just fine.

Esper
12/09/2016, 05:04 AM
You have brown diatoms all over your sand, which tells me the tank is either new (which you say it isn't), or the tank is having massive nutrient swings. Diatoms occur very early in the nitrogen cycle. They should disappear largely on its own as the tank ages.

Then you get the green hair/turf algae phase. It will get pretty intense, but with regular feeding and water changes (and some manual removal) the hair algae will disappear on it's own. Then you get coralline. When the coralline explodes, that's when you know the tank is "matured" and you can add SPS.

Have you had the hair/turf algae phase yet? When did that go away?

I've broken this rule and kept acropora just fine throughout these phases, but they did not grow quickly until the coralline stage.

Mrtakeoff53
07/17/2019, 06:59 PM
Went and got a couple test kits today, Salifert nitrate reads the same as my Nyos with a level right around five. I also got a Potassium kit which I have never tested for before, and got in the 360-370 range. I guess that's a touch low but not enough to affect much?

Potatohead,

How’s your tank end up fairing? I’m in a similar boat as you right now. Almost the same set-up. I have SPS but no acros. I was researching what to do and was wondering how your tank turned out?

Oldreeferman
07/18/2019, 10:32 PM
From the pics you presented i have to agree with Esper on all counts. I see diatoms as swell. A reef aquarium may test ok AFTER the initial nitrifying cycle but its far from done maturing & stabilizing, only time does that. When you see Coralline overtaking all the rocks and out competing the algae & growing on the glass................... its matured. Corals love growing on Coralline... especially the encrusting ones. At this point the less you change anything the better (it just resets the clock) just let time age the tank. Testing the tank to death will get you no where on a new tank other then empty pockets if your RO is clean & your using reef saltmix that will have everything you need since your bio load is low.