Noob turning fresh tank to reef

[Oiler3535]

Hi all! Background (question below): So I got my first aquarium about 2.5 years ago. I wanted to see if I could care for a tank well enough; I did fresh water first so the failure costs would be lower. I've successfully kept nearly all fish alive (I discovered my female bushynose pleco will kill any other algae eaters including other BNs), so am ready to move on to what I really want to do, which is a coral sustaining tank. I was originally going to keep my fresh tank going until my angels succumbed, but I am likely moving a good distance next spring/summer and with my local store willing to buy/take my fresh stock, I think I'll use it as an excuse to switch over.

Besides a better light (any reasonably priced LEDs good enough for corals?), is there anything I absolutely have to do/know? I'll obviously research how to best cycle it to start and necessary testing kits/additives. I've got a 46G bowfront that is about 18" tall, 12" deep and 24" wide. Do I need a protein skimmer for sure? I've got a canister filter that produces a good current near the top of the tank (I've made a big diffuser bc my African butterfly doesn't like current). My long term goal is to have a tall live rock on both ends, with layers of Montipora halfway up on each sticking out toward the middle, corals above them that need the faster current, and corals below that do not. Then on the floor in the middle a mixture of things on smaller live rocks for the few fish I'll get (thinking couple of cardinals, a fire fish and a clown for my wife). Any corals I absolutely can't have near each other or in the same tank at all? I'm completely ignorant of marine/reef necessities so am happy for any and all advice. Get my fish in before starting on corals? Add only 1-2 frags at a time? No idea on anything.

[asting]

You don't need a protein skimmer, but it can certainly help. With low fish stocking, you could probably get away without it.

Canisters are not very popular with saltwater as they can quickly become detritus traps.

You'll also need additional flow - a few powerheads in the tank will do the job. Jeboa powerhead are pretty awesome budget wave makers.

You'll want to keep the long sweeping corals clear of others for the most part (hammers, frogspawn, etc.) as they can sting the crap out of other things.

You can add the fish and coral in whatever order you'd like. Just be aware that as you cycle, it will be easier to sustain the fish after than it will the coral. As you add fish your bio load will increase and water quality can dip slightly while your tank adjusts. Coral add much less, especially when you are discussing frags.

[Oiler3535]

Thanks for the reply. When you say canisters are detritus traps, what exactly do you mean? If it just means I need to clean it more often that's not a problem; my canister is easy to get at and only takes 5 minutes to clean out. Weekly cleanings won't bother me.

For flow, my filter pumps strongly enough that without my diffuser on it'll go across the entire tank width no problem. If I put the outflow at the bottom of the tank aimed at the curved front it should have a nice circulation down there. Then put an oscillating powerhead up top in the middle to roil up the top? Or would 2 smaller ones aimed at each other so the meet in the middle be better? My long term goal is 2 towers of live rock/coral at either end with smaller rocks on the bottom in the middle.

[MuShu]

Check out media reactors. You can set up your canister as more of a media reactor and that will help prevent it from becoming a nitrate factory.

[xREEFINaintEZx]

Hello and welcome. Test kits... Get yourself the salifert or read sea test kits. If you extra $$$ look into the Hanna checkers. Read about dkh and how it keeps other parameters stable. Just go slow, research everythibg and you'll be fine.

[schnebbles]

I'm contemplating this same thing. I've been told by many that the canister can somehow hold nitrates so I'm ditching it if I move forward. Last night I was told a HOB aquaclear would be better, along with a HOB protein skimmer if I don't do a sump.

[Sk8r]

Marine tanks depend on bacteria living in rock and sand to take nitrate and break it all the way down to nitrogen gas, which then floats to the surface. If you have a sponge, bioballs, wet-dry, or filter in the system, the gunk that decays to nitrate just stops at nitrate, which will kill corals, and which fish don't like that much.

If you have NO filter, the sand and rock do their thing, nitrate > nitrogen gas and leaves the tank; and any amino acid waste from protein is collected as froth in the skimmer cup, which is the only thing you have to clean and empty---usually just a tiny turn and lift free, take to sink, toss, and wipe---every few days in a mature system. But it's a lot less messy than coping with filters; and your water is way cleaner. If ammonia itself gets loose in the decomposition chain, say, because your tank's biosystem isn't set up properly, while corals may survive a little ammonia, fish won't. So at either end, just put your freshwater gear in a box and prepare to get a sump, downflow box, skimmer, new lights, and 2 lbs lacy live rock (the holes are important) per gallon of tank. Your sump holds your inflow hose, your return pump and hose, your skimmer, which itself may have a 1'x1' footprint, your heater, your autotopoff rig (which keeps the salinity steady) and your return pump with 'up' hose. You also need an ato (autotopoff) reservoir of fresh water that's come through a ro/di filter, which you also need. Keep a list of these buzz words and ask about brands, sizes, recommendations, etc.

There are reef-ready tanks which have a factory-installed downflow box that is neater than a hang-on box, but both work. Just the factory-installed doesn't have siphon tubes to mess with. Some drill their own tanks and glue in a box, but tempered glass can leave you with a lapful of glass chips if you drill a tempered panel. BRands of tank differ as to where tempered glass is and is not.

The flow for a marine reef is generally stronger, all the way up to gale force. In my 50 gallon I used a 950 gph pump and it was nicely balanced for stony corals---didn't blow the large-polyp (lps) too hard and was enough for the small-polyp.

Light is critical: if you start with an LED system, be SURE it's really adequate for your reef---we have a whole section in the stickies about how to pick your lights, v what you want to keep.

[Sk8r]

THere is, for a starter, a 300.00 alternative (roughly) called an 'all-in-one.' They're little thirty-gallon tanks, which means you can't have tangs, angels, etc, pretty well limits you to blennies, gobies, and basslets, maybe a small jawfish or clown pair---but they come with all equipment and lights, and will handle soft coral. It's a self-contained package. Once you're sure this hobby is for you, you can then put it up for sale and get (sometimes) a much larger system off one of the online list-it services. By then you will have learned brand names and know what's good and what's not-so, and whether the blue tang that comes with that 100 gallon tank is really a good deal (it's not.) THis is a good way to go if you live where there's a lot of people in the hobby (hence a lot of choices near you of systems to buy). If you're one house 400 miles from all other civilization and fish stores, not so much.

[Oiler3535]

THere is, for a starter, a 300.00 alternative (roughly) called an 'all-in-one.' They're little thirty-gallon tanks, which means you can't have tangs, angels, etc, pretty well limits you to blennies, gobies, and basslets, maybe a small jawfish or clown pair---but they come with all equipment and lights, and will handle soft coral. It's a self-contained package. Once you're sure this hobby is for you, you can then put it up for sale and get (sometimes) a much larger system off one of the online list-it services. By then you will have learned brand names and know what's good and what's not-so, and whether the blue tang that comes with that 100 gallon tank is really a good deal (it's not.) THis is a good way to go if you live where there's a lot of people in the hobby (hence a lot of choices near you of systems to buy). If you're one house 400 miles from all other civilization and fish stores, not so much.

Appreciate the input. However, just 2.5 years ago I spent a ton (for me) of money on everything for a tank and no chance my wife is okay with starting over. Plus, will be moving to a place almost 2 hours drive from the nearest real fish store and city. I'm hoping to be able to slowly build up my stock so that a good LED light is my main beginning expense.

[lockdown52]

As for a less expensive light that will give you all that you need for coral retention and growth, go to Ebay. They have a couple of different brands of 165 watt LED lights for $100.

[Oiler3535]

As for a less expensive light that will give you all that you need for coral retention and growth, go to Ebay. They have a couple of different brands of 165 watt LED lights for $100.

I'll definitely look there! My tank is 46g bowfront and 36wide, 20"high, and 15ish deep. How much lighting do I need? Will the glass cover I have for the tank stop any of the intensity? Should I remove it if I clean the light regularly to keep salt down?

[asting]

I'll definitely look there! My tank is 46g bowfront and 36wide, 20"high, and 15ish deep. How much lighting do I need? Will the glass cover I have for the tank stop any of the intensity? Should I remove it if I clean the light regularly to keep salt down?

Glass will lead to a slight reduction. A more significant issue may be heat, as you may need to run without the glass to increase evap and lower the temp.

With a 46 bow front, one of the "165w" fixtures likely won't give enough coverage. The bow front is 36" long, right? You could try removing the optics and running closer to the water. The outcome may just be that you carefully place your high light corals closer to the center of the tank.

Also, the 165w fixtures are 5x11 (array size), and the 180w are 6x10. I have a 20Long and went with the 5x11 for the greater length.

[Oiler3535]

Glass will lead to a slight reduction. A more significant issue may be heat, as you may need to run without the glass to increase evap and lower the temp.

With a 46 bow front, one of the "165w" fixtures likely won't give enough coverage. The bow front is 36" long, right? You could try removing the optics and running closer to the water. The outcome may just be that you carefully place your high light corals closer to the center of the tank.

Also, the 165w fixtures are 5x11 (array size), and the 180w are 6x10. I have a 20Long and went with the 5x11 for the greater length.

The plan is to have large live rock columns on each side so might be able to get away with not 36" wide coverage bc I'll have the high light corals near the middle.

[colodano]

For a good cost and decent amount of light for that size tank, I would look into the Marsaqua 300w led lights. There is a huge thread on them, and many people are very happy with them, myself included.

[Oiler3535]

For a good cost and decent amount of light for that size tank, I would look into the Marsaqua 300w led lights. There is a huge thread on them, and many people are very happy with them, myself included.

Good pointer! Checked out the thread (well, a few pages of it!) and looks good. Saw a comment on Amazon that it went on sale for 99 at one point. Even though was American, even with shipping and exchange here to Canada I'll have to keep an eye out over the winter and see if I can find it on sale again before I need it next summer!

[Oiler3535]

I asked an engineer friend of mine about making my own LED array and he said it was very easy to make, but LeDs themselves are expensive enough to make it not really worth it. Interesting to think about though. He found me 3 companies in Canada that sold them and without buying hundreds of each wavelength, it's about a dollar per light at cheapest, so really not worthwhile. I'm sure you could find them cheaper somewhere, but with shipping/quality concerns I think I'll just spend the winter looking online regularly for deals.

[Bugboy2020]

Check out Rapid LED's. They seem to have decent prices on individual LEDs.

[Oiler3535]

Check out Rapid LED's. They seem to have decent prices on individual LEDs.


Unless I'm looking in wrong place, they're over $3 USD per 3w LED.

[Oiler3535]

If I'm promising to invest and take care of my 46g tank, what is my stocking limit? I'm seeing people say everything down to 1" of fish per 10gal. Which is 1 fish for me. My ideal beginner fish list is:
2 ocelaris (sic) for my wife
2 PJ Cardinals
2 Bangai Cardinals
1 tailspot Glenn young
1 firefish goby
1 Royal Gramma

Any good mix? I'll only add 1 species per month max.

[nereefpat]

It would be easier if there was a simple "inches per gallon" rule.

It really comes down to three things:

1. Tank size requirements for each individual fish
2. Compatibility among fishes
3. How much water quality issues you are willing to deal with.

Your list would make your tank pretty full. Each fish is fine for your tank size. I'm not sure if you will have issues with the different cardinal species. Also Cardinals, if they don't pair up, may not tolerate each other. I would add the firefish first, and hopefully the clowns or gramma don't chase it out of the tank.

[Oiler3535]

Excited. Moved July 4th, and set up my tank a few days later. Following the instructions on the salt (actually a bit less...they said 1/2 cup per gallon and I did about 1 3/4 cups per 4 gallons), my salinity was off the chart. Had to remove about 8 gallons and add fresh water to get it down to 1.025. Running over a week now with 30lbs of aragonite and about 2lbs of live rock from a couple of different stores. My homemade dead rock isn't ready yet. But, and this is the exciting part, after a week of feeding the tank to keep the ammonia between 1-2, I finally got my first nitrites reading! Yay! Keep up the feeding another week and hopefully will be cycled. Going away this weekend, then if I'm lucky the tank will be ready for my first live stock next week.

[nereefpat]

If your NH3 spiked to 2ppm, I wouldn't feed anymore. That's high enough to cycle, and more will just lead to higher NO3.

Just go slow, and don't add any livestock until ammonia and nitrites drop to zero.

[Sk8r]

It's not what you buy---but how they grow. 5" to 12" adult size for a fish is not uncommon in this hobby. THink of a freshwater sunperch for one of the larger clowns...and they go up from there. Some are also speed swimmers (tangs) and need more room; others are highly territorial (damsels) and many need 100 gallons before they calm down. My advice is go for a mostly-invert and small coral tank at first, with a couple of fishes that stay tiny, under 3".

[sde1500]

If I'm promising to invest and take care of my 46g tank, what is my stocking limit? I'm seeing people say everything down to 1" of fish per 10gal. Which is 1 fish for me. My ideal beginner fish list is:
2 ocelaris (sic) for my wife
2 PJ Cardinals
2 Bangai Cardinals
1 tailspot Glenn young
1 firefish goby
1 Royal Gramma

Any good mix? I'll only add 1 species per month max.

Not sure all 4 cardinals will mix. I'd pick one or the other, then the rest of the fish should be just fine.

[Oiler3535]

If your NH3 spiked to 2ppm, I wouldn't feed anymore. That's high enough to cycle, and more will just lead to higher NO3.

Just go slow, and don't add any livestock until ammonia and nitrites drop to zero.

That's the plan. I'm just excited bc when I first got nitrites readings when I first did this tank 3.5 years ago, the tank was cycled less than a week later.

[Oiler3535]

It's not what you buy---but how they grow. 5" to 12" adult size for a fish is not uncommon in this hobby. THink of a freshwater sunperch for one of the larger clowns...and they go up from there. Some are also speed swimmers (tangs) and need more room; others are highly territorial (damsels) and many need 100 gallons before they calm down. My advice is go for a mostly-invert and small coral tank at first, with a couple of fishes that stay tiny, under 3".

All fish I'm looking at are under 3". Going to start with a pair of Occellaris (sic), then depending on what I can get (live 90 minutes from fish store) and how good my parameters stay, I'll slowly add a Royal Gramma, Firefish, Tailspot Blenny, Banggai Cardinal, and PJ Cardinal. As I go I'll keep an eye online for a decent LED so I can slowly add some beginner corals (montipora, Xenia, green slimer, buttons, elegance, star polyps, Kenya tree, frog spawns, brains and mushrooms).

[Oiler3535]

Getting my first Nitrates reading now :). Ammonia around 2, the Nitrites are the 3rd colour down, and the nitrates between the second and third. Yay! Cycling :)

[Oiler3535]

How long does the cycle take? Ammonia has been around 2 for 2 weeks +, and Nitrates have been off the scale for a week almost. Some Nitrates but still only a little.

[Oiler3535]

Nitrites off the scale, nitrates minimal.

[sde1500]

Give it a couple more weeks.

[Oiler3535]

Ya, that's kind of what I thought. Was just hoping for magic before Friday as I'm going to be near my 'local' fish store then and would have loved to be able to buy my first fish. Store is 1:40 drive away and don't go often. One plus is that today the Nitrates are much higher and the Nitrites colour is noticeably less purple (though still lowest colour, getting close to being closer to penultimate).

[Oiler3535]

Are these white tubes little feather dusters? Came on the live rocks I got from my lfs to help cycle. Lots of little dusters seem happy. Okay long term in what I hope to eventually have corals in? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFyO0CdUwAAB8-_?format=jpg&name=large

[Oiler3535]

Sorry for the noob questions, but the amount of information around is overwhelming. What parameters are important to regularly test for? To this point (no fish yet):
pH 8.2
Alk 13 drops kh
Salt 1.026
Ammonia <.25 (colour vision issues...can't tell if the yellow or first green)
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10-20 (same colour issue, can't tell between the 2...will do 1/2 water change before adding fish to lower more)

What are pivotal parameters to measure for fish?
Which are pivotal once I add corals months from now?

[sde1500]

Nitrate and Alk for fish, nitrate, phosphate, alk, calcium, mag for corals.

[Oiler3535]

Nitrate and Alk for fish, nitrate, phosphate, alk, calcium, mag for corals.

Thanks. Calcium I figured for corals. Magnesium I didn't. Thanks.

[Oiler3535]

Got my first fish! Didn't have any ocelaris (figure getting my wife's Nemo fish would have made her less annoyed at me paying more attention to my new tank than her after moving lol...ah well). So got the aroyak Gramma. Looks amazing. Picked a corner and the only time it has been over 10 inches away has been when the Scarlett crab has come over. Didn't like that. Tried nosing it away to no avail. Then just pushed between the crab and the glass and waited for it to move. Highly entertaining. Already eating happily. Sees its reflection in the side glass and bonking the glass. Guess that's why only 1 per tank! Also got a few small mushroom frags (well, attached to old snail shells but I'll call them frags). Wasn't planning on getting corals already, but got almost free. I guess they're False Florida Ricordeas by the looks of my google search. Very sharp looking. One is all green, the other is green outside and orange inside.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGRXaAtUIAAumyl?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGRXaAxUMAA8OeA?format=jpg&name=large

[pfan151]

Definitely making a mistake not quarantining. Grammas are pretty prone to ich.

[Oiler3535]

Definitely making a mistake not quarantining. Grammas are pretty prone to ich.

Was an empty tank before it. Quarantine what from what? Also, zero chance my wife approves a second tank. I know I'd be better with one, just not possible ATM.

[pfan151]

Was an empty tank before it. Quarantine what from what? Also, zero chance my wife approves a second tank. I know I'd be better with one, just not possible ATM.


You'd be quarantining the gramma so you can treat it for anything it is carrying. Once ich is introduced to your display it's not easy to get rid of. You may get lucky but in my experience at least, most fish that are prone to ich will have symptoms showing within 2 weeks of purchase.

It would also be a good idea to add more rock to give the fish somewhere to take shelter. A fish with no place to hide will be stressed and be even more likely to succumb to parasites.

[Oiler3535]

I'd love a quarantine tank, I really would. But my option is no tank or 1 tank.

[Oiler3535]

Went away for a week. Think the house sitters fed tank too much. Fish all fine (2 Ocellaris, 2 Banggais, and a Royal Gramma). Ammonia 0, phosphate nearer 0 than the first colour on API test, and Nitrates indistinguishable from the 0 colour. But tank covered in hair algae, and other algaes on sand and glass (orange spots?). Got a brown emerald crab (cousin to emerald?), but no snails at lfs. Going to bigger store Tuesday so hoping to grab a tailspot blenny (very unlikely), a few Astraea, a few zombie snails, and a few Trochus. Hopefully help. And yes, I scraped everything I could and did a 20% water change first thing. Kinda amused by the hermit crab with the Trump hair though. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHe_S3TVoAAY3od?format=jpg&name=large

[Jon0807]

I think you're going way too fast on the fish stocking. And a QT can consist of a little 5 to 10 gallon tank. Heck, you can even use one of those plastic totes. It's not something you have to keep running, just enough to go through the quarantine process.

[Oiler3535]

I realize about the stocking. But lfs never gets Banggais. Started with the gramma, then a couple of weeks later got the Banggais be they actually had them. Then a week later was given the clownfish. Wasn't planned.

[schnebbles]

I think you need a bunch more live rock. It's crucial for your tank from what I know. I also switched from fresh back in October. I've crashed it twice :( 2nd time I'm sure was me not doing my water changes and over feeding. I'm sill afraid I over feed but doing my wc's weekly.

The rock is so important to keep everything operating.

It's heartbreaking when you crash it and lose your fish. Not saying you will, just telling you my mistakes over the past year.

I'm so glad to see Sk8er told us how the canister is bad, I've been running one but I think I'll remove all of the bio balls/sponges from it and switch it to something else in it. I like it merely for the water flow at the top of the tank from the spray bar. I never understood just why they were bad. Now I get it!

Good luck!

[Oiler3535]

Ya. I've got a good 50lbs of dead rock curing. Not ready yet though.

[schnebbles]

Ya. I've got a good 50lbs of dead rock curing. Not ready yet though.

awesome! I think when I got mine I mixed my rock so it all went in right away. Never thought of that and if you mentioned it I didn't see it.

ps - starry blennies are the coolest fish! I lost mine in my 2nd crash and just got another one and I realize how I missed mine. they are cool. I got a flame hawk too and I'm awaiting him to get adjusted because they are pretty neat too but he's hiding around my skimmer (no sump). i got him Thursday so I'm hoping he comes out of hiding soon. I watched one at the store quite a while before I made my mind up to get one.

[Oiler3535]

Never seen a starry blenny. I wanted a tail spot. Will look that one up! My lfs only seems to get bicolour or red lipped, and not sure how reef safe those are.

[Oiler3535]

Starry blenny looks great, but says it gets over 4-5 inches and already near max bioload in my tank (yes I know many would say I've blown way past that already lol---seen many people say I should have 4-5 inches of fish total in my 46g)

[Oiler3535]

Diatom bloom on sand. Phosphates and Nitrates negligible. Driving the 90 minutes into the city Tuesday, so hopefully my lfs (until closes in a month) has some good clean up crew in stock. Hoping for some Astraea, trochus, zombie snails, and maybe a shrimp or two.

[Oiler3535]

Cannot find any snails anywhere. The couple of emerald crabs have decimated the hair algae, and I scraped the glass well before a water change and looking much better. Managed to get 1 Astraea snail, but always upside down and eventually a hermit got it. Never seemed to do a damned thing. LFS keeping snails on order for me and hopefully get some at some point. They will have a tiger blenny, which while I wanted a tail spot which they can't get, looks good.