40 gallon breeder new build advice

[stevediaz1]

Hello everyone my name is steve I have a question
I'm starting a new build on a 40 gallon breeder ( reef )
I need advice on what's the best way to plumb this tank
i want to build/do a open stand as well to showcase the sump as well so plumbing is a essential for the design and looks for the sump I'm thinking another 40 gallon breeder what do you guys think?
I want to be able to keep it nice and tidy
What flow rate should I be looking for in this build?
Also
-plumbing pipe size?
-overflow options
-plumbing external or internal?
-I'd appreciate all the help and advice I get on this I want to do it right thanks everyone

[Scottedontknow]

I run a ghost overflow on my 40b with a bean animal set out out the back. I seem to always use 1" for drain plumbing and 3/4" for return plumbing. I hate hang on back overflows I just think they are ugly (people have plenty of success with them, I just feel they are tacky and too much work for what they do)

I do DIY sumps, they are simple to make look nice for a display sump all it takes is some time and organization.

I also use return pumps that allow me to dial in the flow rate without the use of a ball or gate valve. (Vortech, jebao are what I use)

There are a million ways to achieve what you're looking for this is just what I do :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lsufan]

U will have to do some designing on the stand to be able to fit a 40 breeder sump but it can be done. U will have to build the stand a little taller then normal because u will have to use a wider top frame then u would with just a normal stand. I like my stand for my 40 breeder atleast 42" tall anyways.

As far as the overflow box I would look into one of the ghost overflow boxes. They have quite a few direct brands of them out there because they are becoming more & more popular. If u are good at DIY projects u can make a ghost type overflow & it will be custom to your needs. The premise ones are a good option to but I believe they are only 24" wide, that would be ok for a 40 breeder but not ideal for a larger tank. If u do a custom box I like to stop the box 3 or 4" from the edge of the tank if u can view the tank from the sides, to me it looks better. It also gives u a place to drill for your return bulkhead if u don't want it going over the back of the tank.

I would look into a bean animal drain setup, by far the best drain setup to have. U can use all 1" plumbing but I like to use 1 1/2" for the open channel because it stays quieter & can handle more flunctuations in the system. It will work fine though if u want to keep everything at 1".

If u want the plumbing to look nice u need to drill your holes for your drains & returns to where they have the straightest shot to the sump as possible. U really should do this anyways though. U can also use colored pvc & fittings to make it look good or u can do like I did & use regular pvc & paint it the color u want. I paint mine black & just use black pvc anywhere it touches water which is mainly where it enters the sump.

As far as return pump I would shot for a pump that is around 700gph & just valve it back to the flow u want. I have a ehiem 1262 on my 40 breeder but it is overkill for that size tank, I have it feeding a manifold & I still have it valved back quite a bit, it is rated for around 950 gph.

[stevediaz1]

why don't i just use 1 inch for both return and drain would that cause a problem?

[FamilyTank]

I'm starting a 40breeder now to, the stand is roughly 40" tall. With a display sump, I would seriously consider a premade black metal stand from HD or Lowes, wait I think you can get them out of Staples or Office Depot etc.Theres a thread on here with youtube video. Buy set it up,if you don't like the look return it. It fits 2 40breeders perfectly! Just replace the chessey particle board shelves.

[FamilyTank]

I'm just about to start plumbing also. I've read here to upsize because of the frictional lose of flow. My question is what about the additional weight the pump has to push? If a foot of gravity is something to contend with about about the same foot with more weight. I'm not the mathy type to start crunching numbers,lol. Just thinking out loud. Hope you don't think this is hi-jacking.....

[Lsufan]

U should be fine using 1" on the return. Usually u want to upsize atleast 1 size from the output of the pump. So if the pump output is 3/4" u would want 1" return plumbing. Most pumps that are around the size u need have around a 3/4" output but it may be wise to decide on a pump before u decide on your return plumbing, but u will more then likely be ok with 1"

[uncleof6]

I'm just about to start plumbing also. I've read here to upsize because of the frictional lose of flow. My question is what about the additional weight the pump has to push? If a foot of gravity is something to contend with about about the same foot with more weight. I'm not the mathy type to start crunching numbers,lol. Just thinking out loud. Hope you don't think this is hi-jacking.....

Weight is not a consideration in plumbing pump fed piping systems. It is a bit complicated, however we are dealing with head pressure not weight. In other words, the pump only sees the height it needs to lift the water, and the resistance to flow caused by the pipe.

To explain this, we need to take a brief look at pressure. Static pressure does arise from the weight of the fluid, however it is expressed by: the density of the fluid x height of the column x acceleration due to gravity. What is missing however, is the tricky part: the fluid pressure at a given depth does not depend on the total mass or total volume of the fluid. The other basic principle is pressure at any given point in a fluid container is equal in all directions.

Say you have 16psi at a point in a fluid container... that is 16psi up, down, left, right, and all points inbetween. Pressure at a given depth will also be the same regardless of the shape of the container.

Practical application: Say you have a straw full of water, that is 24" tall, and 1/8" in diameter. The pressureat at the bottom of the straw is given as x. Now you go out to the ocean, and measure the pressure at 24" below the surface. You will find it will be equal to x. A more practical application: an aquarium pump.

If the return pipe is 1/8" in diameter and the height of the return pipe is 24", the pressure will be given as x. Upsize the pipe to 1.5", with the same height, and the pressure the pump will see is equal to x. The only difference will be it will be easier to pump y gallons per hour in the 1.5" pipe, than it would be in the 1/8" pipe due to the drastic difference in friction loss; and a larger pump would be required to pump y gallons per hour in the 1/8" pipe.

Hope that clears up your issue with the weight of the water... ;)

It is not hijacking by the way, as engineering aquarium plumbing is a much lacking skill in this hobby.

EDIT: added some numbers....

The actual pressure at 24" would be 15.59psi for saltwater, at sea level. 14.7psi + (2*.445psi)

[FamilyTank]

Thanks for posting on this. I'm still pondering...

[uncleof6]

Thanks for posting on this. I'm still pondering...

Well, unfortunately, the question you raised lands right in the middle of Fluid Mechanics. It is mostly mathy. Fortunately, the basic principle of upsizing the pipe on the pump outlet is pretty simple; for that you can skip to the end of this dissertation.

I gave you half the solution above, static pressure, (at rest) and barely touched on the dynamics involved that get the water to move. A fluid moves due to pressure differences, e.g. from high pressure to low pressure.

So you have x psi in static pressure. [14.7psi + height in feet * .445psi (the weight of a 1 square inch column of seawater 1' high)] The pump raises the pressure of the fluid to z psi, and therefore the fluid flows from z psi to atmospheric pressure of 14.7psi. (or the pressure at the pipe outlet, if it is submerged.)

The simple part is per hydrostatics, the pressure x psi will be the same whether the pipe diameter is 1", 2", or 100miles in diameter. Therefore the pressure z psi will be the same.:hammer: Therefore the output of the pump will be the same, if we do not consider the resistance to flow in the pipe.

But nothing is exactly free. When you increase the pipe size you do lose something: pressure. Applying some more physics, we conclude that High pressure = low flow; and low pressure = high flow. And since friction loss is based on velocity, and pressure is partially dependent on velocity, and a given volume of water moves slower in a large pipe and faster in a small pipe, hence High pressure = high friction loss; and low pressure = low friction loss. :hammer:

Hopefully, you are getting where I am going this: pressure is a really complicated way to look at all this, although it is the most accurate way.

That is why pumps are rated in maximum head capability in feet. Static head is expressed in feet; and friction loss is expressed in feet. (Remember we are actually talking about pressure however.) We don't need to really know what y psi (how much the pump raises the pressure,) we only need to know how high the pump can push water. So we can add the static head + friction head (both expressed in feet) look at the flow curve and determine the approximated flow rate. The friction loss (head) will be less as the pipe diameter increases, but static head will remain constant. However, there are also friction losses on the suction side, so still we are not at a complete solution.

The simplest and most direct way to look at this, is to just accept that upsizing the outlet pipe size (but never larger than the pump inlet diameter with an external pump) will allow the pump to push more water at a given constant static head, than a smaller pipe diameter. In the end, it is both observable and measureable; and it can be mathematically proven. :bounce2:

[stevediaz1]

wow guys thats a hole lot of info and made me dizzy just reading it just tell me whats the best size pipe to get for a mixed reef and what pump should i be looking at please sorry for being blunt I'm a simple kind of guy thanks heres a over flow I'm looking at adding still deciding on wether to use a large or go with two small over flows ill post a pic

[uncleof6]

I run a ghost overflow on my 40b with a bean animal set out out the back. I seem to always use 1" for drain plumbing and 3/4" for return plumbing. I hate hang on back overflows I just think they are ugly (people have plenty of success with them, I just feel they are tacky and too much work for what they do)

I do DIY sumps, they are simple to make look nice for a display sump all it takes is some time and organization.

I also use return pumps that allow me to dial in the flow rate without the use of a ball or gate valve. (Vortech, jebao are what I use)

There are a million ways to achieve what you're looking for this is just what I do :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

400gph, 1" pipe all around, depending on the drain system you are ultimately going to use, but to be honest, that does not tell you much, and a 1.5" durso would probably be sufficient. As is typical with eshopps, those boxes are pretty small to do a set up that would typically use two or three standpipes and the surface skimming will be insufficient. Much more performing would be to do a custom overflow, though I think someone else mentioned that already. You are going to have to drill the glass, so may as well make the most of it, rather than settling for something a manufacturer considers reef ready, and being insufficient is the reason custom designs exist.

As far as a 40 breeder sump goes, you won't be able to get a 40 breeder sump under a 40 breeder tank, using a stand that properly supports the tank (direct vertical support at the four corners from the bottom of the tank to the floor.)

I don't mind people being blunt, by the way, so long as they don't mind me being blunt. That stuff up above that is making you dizzy? That is some of the stuff you need to know and deal with to set up a pump fed system that actually works the way you want it too, without the exaggerated flow rate claims, and guess work... yes it does matter, and it can save you money and time... :spin3:

[Rubasu]

IMO, just use one bigger overflow. I went with a Modular Marine overflow and I had him customize it for me. On my 40B, I have an 18" internal box without teeth and then a 12" external box running a bean animal with 3/4" drains. Seems to work well for me. If you email modularmarine, you can have him customize it to whatever you want (within reason.)

[Underwood]

I am with Rubasu -> one bigger overflow is plenty. I used a glass-holes 700 gph overflow kit (1.5") with a gate valve and it is more than enough. For the return I am running 3/4".

If it was me, I would re-think the open stand idea. Besides the aesthetics, it is just noisy.

I built my stand so the center "brace" between the cabinet doors is only held in place with magnets. That way (+ with the cabinet doors on the sides) I have full access underneath the tank.

[uncleof6]

400gph, 1" pipe all around, depending on the drain system you are ultimately going to use, but to be honest, that does not tell you much, and a 1.5" durso would probably be sufficient. As is typical with eshopps, those boxes are pretty small to do a set up that would typically use two or three standpipes and the surface skimming will be insufficient. Much more performing would be to do a custom overflow, though I think someone else mentioned that already. You are going to have to drill the glass, so may as well make the most of it, rather than settling for something a manufacturer considers reef ready, and being insufficient is the reason custom designs exist.

As far as a 40 breeder sump goes, you won't be able to get a 40 breeder sump under a 40 breeder tank, using a stand that properly supports the tank (direct vertical support at the four corners from the bottom of the tank to the floor.)

I don't mind people being blunt, by the way, so long as they don't mind me being blunt. That stuff up above that is making you dizzy? That is some of the stuff you need to know and deal with to set up a pump fed system that actually works the way you want it too, without the exaggerated flow rate claims, and guess work... yes it does matter, and it can save you money and time... :spin3:

Quoted the wrong post on this reply...