Why not make an offer

[hkgar]

I have run into this a couple times when I have offered something for sale and list the asking price. People will express interest and then rather than making an offer, they ask what I will take.


If you are interested, why don't you make an offer? I don't understand? People ask what I'll take, when I have posted what I'll take. That may not be the lowest I'll take, so that is why the normal way is to then make an offer. Please help me understand the logic.

If there is a better forum for this than move it. I thought about the lounge but that says non reef discussion, and this could be or could not be.

[Mishri]

I guess it's the tactic of someone who is bad at negotiating? Yes, proper negotiations as a buyer you offer something lower than you think they would take.. and move from there... Tell them they are bad at negotiating and should feel bad :)

[Taahirs]

Sometimes if the price is already good on a cheap item I'll just ask for a frag or something to be thrown in.

But I agree. Always make an offer on stuff. Especially the more expensive items.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pisanoal]

I'm with you. That drives me crazy. Obviously I am not going to tell you the lowest that I would take so that you will get the absolute best deal you could get. Then I would be the bad negotiator. I'm going to try to get what I WANT out of it, and most times I don't even know what I would take until I hear a number and say, "yeah I can live with that." To me, it seems like not only bad negotiating that only works against equally bad or worse, but bad manners to ask that.

[mcgyvr]

Plain and simple..

You ask $100..
I might say.. "well would you take $75?"
and you say "sure"... (because you would have taken $60 so $15 more is great and that benefits you)
and now I'm thinking.. "crap.. what if I said $60"...

So by asking what is the lowest you'd take I assume I'm going to get the lowest price and not risk offering more than you would have taken as a bottom..

[pisanoal]

Sometimes if the price is already good on a cheap item I'll just ask for a frag or something to be thrown in.

But I agree. Always make an offer on stuff. Especially the more expensive items.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And if the price is already good, and lower then what others sold for with equal quality, then I pay it. Especially if its a newly posted, popular item. That means the price is fair. If I'm selling something, I expect a fair price to be paid on a good item. If it doesn't move at that price, that's a different story.

[pisanoal]

Plain and simple..

You ask $100..
I might say.. "well would you take $75?"
and you say "sure"... (because you would have taken $60 so $15 more is great and that benefits you)
and now I'm thinking.. "crap.. what if I said $60"...

So by asking what is the lowest you'd take I assume I'm going to get the lowest price and not risk offering more than you would have taken as a bottom..

Why would I give you the lowest number I would take, just because you asked? Chances are, id give you something higher, because that's how negotiations are supposed to work. I post what I want to get, and what I already think is a fair price, based on what it costs new, how old, what others sold for around same quality. You offer less but more then my minimum, we agree, we both get a decent deal. I get a little more then the worst I would take, and you get it for a little cheaper then average. Good negotiating leaves both parties happy.

[hkgar]

[QUOTE=mcgyvr;24792112]Plain and simple..

You ask $100..
I might say.. "well would I'll take $60?"
and you say "sure"... (because you would have taken $70 so $15 more is great and that benefits you)
and now I'm thinking.. "crap.. what if I said $70"...


Don"T you think that my thought process would be:
I might say.. "well I'll take $70?"
and you say "sure"...
and now I'm thinking.. "crap.. what if I said $80"...

So you are NOT going to get my lowest acceptable offer. How ever you figure it at what ever price, you have gotten the product you wanted and I have gotten the price I wanted (willing to accept). Therefore the price is fair - whatever it is. It is called the free market and it works.

[JZinCO]

Guessing this is craigslist or similar..where noone knows how to negotiate.

As a buyer, I've knowingly low balled with an initial offer because I want to work to an agreeable middle. As mcgyvr says, if it's offered for $100 and I say, how about 50, i expect a counter offer and we end up at 75. As a seller, I expect the initial offer to be a top anchor, and a seller, the first offer is a bottom anchor. They establish the range that the final price will settle at.
So, yeah buyers expect bottom dollar and sellers expect top dollar. This is frustrating because I've had the other party stop communicating after I give my initial sell/buy price. Maybe it offends you, but if you want to make the deal, the other party has to counter and negotiate.

Also, others don't realize that time spent listing, reponding to offers, and negotiating costs money. the offer is $10 too high or too low? just give up your ego and make the deal because the time spent haggling costs more to me than arriving at a higher sale price.
/rant

[EMeyer]

Negotiation is an inherently antagonistic practice. Its something for third world countries.

Tell me what the price is and I'll pay it. If you expect negotiation, that means the price youve asked is more than you really expect to get. That makes you a scammer, and I'm not longer interested in dealing with you at any price. Its an inherently antagonistic move: "lets see how much I can fleece this guy for!"

I refuse to haggle over price because I'd like to pretend we're civilized human beings. I may just ask for your price to sidestep the entire dishonest thing and cut to the chase.

[tklb]

Plain and simple..

You ask $100..
I might say.. "well would you take $75?"
and you say "sure"... (because you would have taken $60 so $15 more is great and that benefits you)
and now I'm thinking.. "crap.. what if I said $60"...

So by asking what is the lowest you'd take I assume I'm going to get the lowest price and not risk offering more than you would have taken as a bottom..

But that is like the seller saying, "What is the most you would pay?"
In your example above you ask if I would take $75, and I say "Sure", but you might have been willing to pay $90.

Negotiations find a point where the price is agreeable to both the seller and buyer. Or they are too far apart and no deal is struck. The buyer doesn't get it for the lowest price, just because he asks, just like the seller doesn't get the most that the buyer would be willing to pay.

[mcgyvr]

Don"T you think that my thought process would be:
I might say.. "well I'll take $70?"
and you say "sure"...
and now I'm thinking.. "crap.. what if I said $80"...


No.. I don't..
Someone asked what your lowest price is.. If you wanted to sell it you would give an acceptable answer..

You wouldn't ask for lower than you were comfortable selling it for..
It doesn't work the same from a sellers and buyers perspective..

[hkgar]

Negotiation is an inherently antagonistic practice. Its something for third world countries.

Tell me what the price is and I'll pay it. If you expect negotiation, that means the price youve asked is more than you really expect to get. That makes you a scammer, and I'm not longer interested in dealing with you at any price. Its an inherently antagonistic move: "lets see how much I can fleece this guy for!"

I refuse to haggle over price because I'd like to pretend we're civilized human beings. I may just ask for your price to sidestep the entire dishonest thing and cut to the chase.

But once you ask for my lowest price you have become a negotiator and entered into the antagonistic practice, and from what you said you ask the lowest price question and if I answer at a price lower than I listed you will not do business with me because I am a scammer. Your logic leaves me confused.

[pisanoal]

Guessing this is craigslist or similar..where noone knows how to negotiate.

As a buyer, I've knowingly low balled with an initial offer because I want to work to an agreeable middle. As mcgyvr says, if it's offered for $100 and I say, how about 50, i expect a counter offer and we end up at 75. As a seller, I expect the initial offer to be a top anchor, and a seller, the first offer is a bottom anchor. They establish the range that the final price will settle at.
So, yeah buyers expect bottom dollar and sellers expect top dollar. This is frustrating because I've had the party stop communicating after I give my initial sell/buy price. Maybe it offends you, but if you want to make the deal, the other party has to counter.
/rant

It offends some people because they probably put what they felt was a fair price on the item. When you take their fair price and cut it in half, that is offensive as you are seen as someone who is not a serious buyer and just wants it at a phenomenal deal. This is how I would personally view such an offer, as I try to post an already fair price. If you come back at me with a fair price, there is a good chance I will accept. If you are willing to risk not getting the item because you offended the seller, then that is your own prerogative.

[Bent]

Negotiating 101 man.

The party that names the price first loses.

[tklb]

Negotiation is an inherently antagonistic practice. Its something for third world countries.

Tell me what the price is and I'll pay it. If you expect negotiation, that means the price youve asked is more than you really expect to get. That makes you a scammer, and I'm not longer interested in dealing with you at any price. Its an inherently antagonistic move: "lets see how much I can fleece this guy for!"

I refuse to haggle over price because I'd like to pretend we're civilized human beings. I may just ask for your price to sidestep the entire dishonest thing and cut to the chase.

Just my opinion, but that is a really odd way to look at it. So if I come to your house and we are looking at your tank, and you have just fragged a coral and I want to buy the frag. It is your initial price or nothing? What is a "Fair" price in that case? What if your initial price is $5 more than I am willing to pay? Are you a scammer if you initially ask for $50, and I say, well I would give you $45, and you accept? Or do you stand on principal and not sell it to me, or even say, give me $50, and I will throw in some Macro Algee?

How do you buy cars? houses? Etc?

[JZinCO]

Negotiation is an inherently antagonistic practice. Its something for third world countries.

Tell me what the price is and I'll pay it. If you expect negotiation, that means the price youve asked is more than you really expect to get. That makes you a scammer, and I'm not longer interested in dealing with you at any price. Its an inherently antagonistic move: "lets see how much I can fleece this guy for!"

I refuse to haggle over price because I'd like to pretend we're civilized human beings. I may just ask for your price to sidestep the entire dishonest thing and cut to the chase.

Negotiation is just a tool to find market value. Firm prices are inefficient in second hand markets because the market value is unstable and possibly unknowable ahead of time.

[mcgyvr]

As a buyer...
I want to pay the lowest price..
If I don't want to offend you and just totally low ball you I will ask what is the lowest you are comfortable taking..
Any offer I make that I don't believe is a low ball... I will always second guess myself "did I get his lowest price"..
I take a chance that the seller will give me his lowest offer if I ask..or that the offer he gives is lower than I would have asked because I didn't want to low ball/offend..


As a seller..
I want the highest price..
I also don't want to be offended by low ballers over and over..
If someone asks me whats the lowest I will take I will give a price that I'm comfortable with..

[JZinCO]

It offends some people because they probably put what they felt was a fair price on the item. When you take their fair price and cut it in half, that is offensive as you are seen as someone who is not a serious buyer and just wants it at a phenomenal deal. This is how I would personally view such an offer, as I try to post an already fair price. If you come back at me with a fair price, there is a good chance I will accept. If you are willing to risk not getting the item because you offended the seller, then that is your own prerogative.

asking prices can be perceived as not fair by one or both parties as can be initial offer prices. If someone rejects a deal from the pool of potential buyers/sellers, they're only shooting themselves in the foot by ignoring market value.
And that's life. If I don't think it's fair that I cannot find a house I want in my town because the prices are "too high", in my opinion, that's fine but I won't find a seller that is 'fair' to me. It may not be fair to me in my eyes but objectively the market value is the fairest because it is agreeable to a majority of buyers and sellers (who effectively create the market value)

[pisanoal]

Negotiation is an inherently antagonistic practice. Its something for third world countries.

Tell me what the price is and I'll pay it. If you expect negotiation, that means the price youve asked is more than you really expect to get. That makes you a scammer, and I'm not longer interested in dealing with you at any price. Its an inherently antagonistic move: "lets see how much I can fleece this guy for!"

I refuse to haggle over price because I'd like to pretend we're civilized human beings. I may just ask for your price to sidestep the entire dishonest thing and cut to the chase.

I partially agree with this. I'm fine with negotiating, but the seller should start at a fair price, and any negotiations should happen within a fair limit. Just because I would take 160 for something that was $300 brand new and is selling for around $200 doesn't mean I should ask $160. It also doesn't mean that because someone was willing to buy it for $200 yesterday, that makes it worth that today. The item is worth what someone will pay for it, and I want to get a fair price that is decided upon between me and the buyer through negotiation. This is why auctions exist, and even the stock market... Tell me you don't have stocks/bonds at least in a 401k or IRA?

But, like I said before, a good negotiation should leave both parties pleased, not someone feeling like they got ripped off, and the other person smiling because they did it.

[pisanoal]

Negotiation is just a tool to find market value. Firm prices are inefficient in second hand markets because the market value is unstable and possibly unknowable ahead of time.

I wish I was this concise... haha. 100% agreed

[jacksonpt]

IME, negotiating is rarely worth the time and energy. Even on bigger ticket items like cars. Pay what the item is worth to you. If the seller is asking more, look elsewhere. If they are asking less, consider yourself fortunate.

As far as corals go... the extent of my negotiating is whether or not the seller will cut me a larger frag than originally advertised, but I also offer to pay more for it.

I have no interest in dicking around over $5. It's just not worth it to me.

[DivingTheWorld]

Negotiating 101 man.

The party that names the price first loses.

Yep.

I always list a price with "OBO", like say $100 OBO. If someone emails me and says, "What's your best/lowest price?", I just reply with "$100 Or Best Offer".

That said, I NEVER get mad at lowball offers. Lots of people do, and they need to be thicker skinned. Like people who list "NO LOW BALLS!" in their ad. I just skip over those if I'm a buyer. If I get a lowball offer, I reply nicely that the lowest I would take is $x. I have sold several times to people who initially offered ridiculous amounts but later came up to something reasonable.

[taby15]

In this hobby one has to develop negotiation skills. The more you save the more frags you are able to buy. Me personally i pay everything with I.O.U vouchers.

[pisanoal]

asking prices can be perceived as not fair by one or both parties as can be initial offer prices. If someone rejects a deal from the pool of potential buyers/sellers, they're only shooting themselves in the foot by ignoring market value.
And that's life. If I don't think it's fair that I cannot find a house I want in my town because the prices are "too high", in my opinion, that's fine but I won't find a seller that is 'fair' to me. It may not be fair to me in my eyes but objectively the market value is the fairest because it is agreeable to a majority of buyers and sellers (who effectively create the market value)

I agree, which is why I try to start in what is to the best of my knowledge, a fair market value. Like I said, that is a moving target which is why the negotiations are necessary. I tend to view someone selling something at exorbitantly high starting price as dishonest. Maybe they would sell if for a price I like, but id rather start with someone that shows they have a better idea of what its worth. If I am shooting myself in the foot because they would have sold it for the price I wanted, that's ok with my. If its rare, and i really want it, I might try to deal. In the other case, I might be the one who is wrong on the price, but then so might the other 3 people who have a better price listed. In which case, inherently the high baller is wrong.

[pisanoal]

Yep.

I always list a price with "OBO", like say $100 OBO. If someone emails me and says, "What's your best/lowest price?", I just reply with "$100 Or Best Offer".

That said, I NEVER get mad at lowball offers. Lots of people do, and they need to be thicker skinned. Like people who list "NO LOW BALLS!" in their ad. I just skip over those if I'm a buyer. If I get a lowball offer, I reply nicely that the lowest I would take is $x. I have sold several times to people who initially offered ridiculous amounts but later came up to something reasonable.

Its good to think this way. Sometimes its hard, especially on sites like craigslist where there are so many ridiculous people who aren't serious about buying. If I get a ridiculous low ball of "would you take "x" (being less than 50% of what im asking," I will politely reply, "No, thanks for the offer." If they are serious, they will come up on their own. If they come up to a reasonable range, we will deal. If not, ive sorted through the a**clowns.

[DivingTheWorld]

How about the sob stories?

Insert sob story here:

My car is in the shop.
I don't get paid till next week.
My kid needed money for school.
We can't afford to pay full price because of x.

Sob stories annoy me and I never respond to them. I consider them a scam. If they're not a scam, I prefer them to keep their money. They obviously should be spending it elsewhere.

[JZinCO]

How about the sob stories?

Insert sob story here:

My car is in the shop.
I don't get paid till next week.
My kid needed money for school.
We can't afford to pay full price because of x.

Sob stories annoy me and I never respond to them. I consider them a scam. If they're not a scam, I prefer them to keep their money. They obviously should be spending it elsewhere.

Or.. "but I drove all the way here!"
Your examples of sob stories, I have gotten and I will NOT sell to them. If they can't afford it now, they can't afford it next week. They have money management issues and I will not participate in perpetuating their hardships.

[Bent]

How about the sob stories?

Insert sob story here:

My car is in the shop.
I don't get paid till next week.
My kid needed money for school.
We can't afford to pay full price because of x.

Sob stories annoy me and I never respond to them. I consider them a scam. If they're not a scam, I prefer them to keep their money. They obviously should be spending it elsewhere.

Mostly are. In health care when you collect someone's H&P and they start giving you some sob story, most of the time they are drug seeking.

[JZinCO]

I agree, which is why I try to start in what is to the best of my knowledge, a fair market value. Like I said, that is a moving target which is why the negotiations are necessary. I tend to view someone selling something at exorbitantly high starting price as dishonest. Maybe they would sell if for a price I like, but id rather start with someone that shows they have a better idea of what its worth. If I am shooting myself in the foot because they would have sold it for the price I wanted, that's ok with my. If its rare, and i really want it, I might try to deal. In the other case, I might be the one who is wrong on the price, but then so might the other 3 people who have a better price listed. In which case, inherently the high baller is wrong.

agreed. I guess if they ignore a perceived low-ball, either I did low-ball or they have unrealistic expectations. In either case the deal fails, just as if I, as a buyer, ignore any initial sale offers that are exorbitant. So I concede your initial point partially.

It's just, that in a thinly traded, local niche hobby market, the "fair" market value (as defined by what buyer and sellers will trade at) is not knowable until the trade has been made. If we did have a market with more buyers and sellers, then yeah it would make it easy to define a high/low ball offer (e.g. the bottom quartile of buyer's offers and the top quartile of seller's offers).

[D-Nak]

Mostly are. In health care when you collect someone's H&P and they start giving you some sob story, most of the time they are drug seeking.

There's a reason I call my LFS "the crack den"

[ktownhero]

Negotiation is an inherently antagonistic practice. Its something for third world countries.

Tell me what the price is and I'll pay it. If you expect negotiation, that means the price youve asked is more than you really expect to get. That makes you a scammer, and I'm not longer interested in dealing with you at any price. Its an inherently antagonistic move: "lets see how much I can fleece this guy for!"

I refuse to haggle over price because I'd like to pretend we're civilized human beings. I may just ask for your price to sidestep the entire dishonest thing and cut to the chase.

Negotiation is only antagonistic if you are attempting to get something from someone at their disadvantage. When you approach negotiation from the perspective that you are trying to find a place where both parties are happy, then you will be much more successful. All of my most successful negotiations were very friendly and left both of us feeling like we got what we were looking for. Negotiating is very different from taking advantage of someone.

"Antagonistic" tactics are arguably antithetical to the whole concept. A successful negotiation does not leave either party wishing they had done something differently. The sooner you can convey value to the other party, the sooner you can negotiate. I find that with online sales it is good to emphasize the value in simplicity i.e., "I am a serious buyer and will pay right away", "I see you have been trying to sell that for a while, I can get it off of your hands" or "I am in no rush so feel free to save on shipping".

[HippieSmell]

Plain and simple..

You ask $100..
I might say.. "well would you take $75?"
and you say "sure"... (because you would have taken $60 so $15 more is great and that benefits you)
and now I'm thinking.. "crap.. what if I said $60"...

So by asking what is the lowest you'd take I assume I'm going to get the lowest price and not risk offering more than you would have taken as a bottom..

Or, tell them to give a $100 or **** off. It's just easier that way. I hate hagglers. Post a price that you'll be happy receiving and stick to it.

[itz frank]

The funny thing about selling or buying is that everything is worth something to someone.

You sell an item when the buyer sees enough value in the item to purchase it for the price discussed. Period. Now, that works two fold. If the buyer will buy something that is $100 for $50, you either show them the value to bring up their price or reduce the price to get to perceived value.

An offer is exactly what it says and most people will offer you below that you're listing something for. I think it's silly for someone to list something $100 OBO. You've basically told the buyer that you're not expecting to get $100 for it.

Selling is easy. List the item for what you want or fair value. Get offer from buyer. Build value in item and ask them to buy it at $x. It really is a simple process.

People that get mad that you won't "GIVE THEM YOUR BEST PRICE" are rediculous.

Imagine it like this... I come to your house. Your fridge isn't for sale. Again, IT IS NOT FOR SALE. But I hold out $3,000 in cash and ask you if I can have it. Your fridge wasn't for sale... but it is now. Period.

Buying and selling is emotional. I want $100 for my item. I wouldn't consider $50 on my own accord.... But it's been a few weeks that I've been trying to sell it and you message me and ask, would you take $50 if I come pick it up right now?.. I'm probably saying yes. But I wouldn't have considered it if you asked me what my best price was... I listed it for my best price... $100 is what I want.

Hopefully, you guys followed that rant.

[jstack]

if ur old enough
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNQRqAoT-2c

[scar79]

Interesting thread. I've sold stuff here, on car forums, and on ebay. This crowd is pretty good, but every group has its low ballers and tire kickers.

Ebay is the worst for low-ballers. You'll post something for sale lightly used for $175 when it's $250 new, and you get people asking you if you'll take $90 for it. Give me a break!

My buddy bought a Deep Blue tank at wholesale and decided not to use it. He threw it up on craigslist still wrapped in cellophane on a half pallet for exactly what he had paid for it, not looking to make a dime and trying to get retail for it. The only guy that offered him full ask would only pay that if my buddy delivered it to him 3 hours away. So many offers for 1/3, 1/2 what he was asking. Crazy.

My worst reefer experience was when I broke down my tank and was selling off livestock. I lined up several serious buyers and scheduled pickups. The last guy to pick up had committed to a good chunk of my livestock and had agreed to come the day I broke down. I had bagged all of his fish and corals, and when he showed up, he gave me this sob story about how he got pulled over on the way down and had to pay a fine so he couldn't afford to take everything. At this point, my tank is already drained, so I'm scrambling to find more buckets and splitting up water so I can keep the stuff he couldn't take so I could at least trade it in for pennies on the dollar at the LFS.

It's unfortunate, but a select few people can ruin it for everybody else. Nobody gets the benefit of the doubt unless they are well known members that other well known members know on a personal level.

[pisanoal]

agreed. I guess if they ignore a perceived low-ball, either I did low-ball or they have unrealistic expectations. In either case the deal fails, just as if I, as a buyer, ignore any initial sale offers that are exorbitant. So I concede your initial point partially.

It's just, that in a thinly traded, local niche hobby market, the "fair" market value (as defined by what buyer and sellers will trade at) is not knowable until the trade has been made. If we did have a market with more buyers and sellers, then yeah it would make it easy to define a high/low ball offer (e.g. the bottom quartile of buyer's offers and the top quartile of seller's offers).

Sounds like we are on the same page for the most part. My "rare" item comment applies to what you said about thinly traded/local market etc. In that case, you are very right on it being hard to nail down a price. I guess I have been guilty of dismissing tanks i've been looking for because of an outrageous price on "full setups" that I thought were unreasonable. In my defense on that, when I have tried, they were not willing to negotiate much. They didn't understand you tend to not make your money back on this hobby. As this thread goes, I took it mostly as being about buying and selling on the dry goods forum here which is mostly used equipment. Its pretty easy to get a feel on market value on a lot of that stuff. There again, tanks and full setups are still sold locally on here, so that part holds true.

[tklb]

I am utterly amazed at a lot of the opinions in this thread. Everyone is entitled to theirs, but wow this is eye opening.


I don't understand the idea that negotiating (in good faith) is antagonistic. Maybe some people just don't like it and are uncomfortable, because they aren't good at it.

Buyers can come with a low offer, but the seller can't start with a high offer? That is a weird position to take. If it is too much work for you to make an offer and negotiate toward an acceptable deal, as the buyer, then you deserve to either pay more than you could have, or to have to look elsewhere for a better deal. If it is too much work as the seller to negotiate toward an acceptable deal, then you deserve to get less than what you could have, or have to wait for another buyer to come along.

And by the way, where is the rule that says the seller has to come down to his minimum acceptable offer every time? That is a skewed view. The seller might have multiple potential buyers, in which case, the buyers are competing with each other. But, the seller might be competing with other sellers for the attention of a single buyer. It is all about leverage, who has it, and who doesn't, just like it should. Kinda sounds like supply and demand, no?

Any time that one party wants to sell an item, that item has a certain value to them, and a separate value to the buyer. How bad does the buyer want it, how bad does the seller need to sell it, how hard is it to find, how many are available, all those things come into it. Working toward a price that meets both parties' perceived value is not by any means antagonistic. You don't have to make a deal. If the price is too high, you don't have to buy it. If the offer is too low, you don't have to sell it.

A seller can't force the buyer to purchase it, and vice-versa. So I don't know what the problem is. I have never been offended by a low ball offer, I just make a counter offer. Sometimes that leads to additional negotiation, sometimes not.

As the seller or the buyer, you have no idea of the other party's situation. They might be willing to spend way more than what you think. Or they might be willing to sell it for way less than their initial price. Chances are you will never know, and ultimately, that is a good thing.

It would be interesting to know everybody's age in this thread. I am 44. My guess would be that there are a lot of millennials in this thread.

[pisanoal]

Interesting thread. I've sold stuff here, on car forums, and on ebay. This crowd is pretty good, but every group has its low ballers and tire kickers.

Ebay is the worst for low-ballers. You'll post something for sale lightly used for $175 when it's $250 new, and you get people asking you if you'll take $90 for it. Give me a break!

My buddy bought a Deep Blue tank at wholesale and decided not to use it. He threw it up on craigslist still wrapped in cellophane on a half pallet for exactly what he had paid for it, not looking to make a dime and trying to get retail for it. The only guy that offered him full ask would only pay that if my buddy delivered it to him 3 hours away. So many offers for 1/3, 1/2 what he was asking. Crazy.

My worst reefer experience was when I broke down my tank and was selling off livestock. I lined up several serious buyers and scheduled pickups. The last guy to pick up had committed to a good chunk of my livestock and had agreed to come the day I broke down. I had bagged all of his fish and corals, and when he showed up, he gave me this sob story about how he got pulled over on the way down and had to pay a fine so he couldn't afford to take everything. At this point, my tank is already drained, so I'm scrambling to find more buckets and splitting up water so I can keep the stuff he couldn't take so I could at least trade it in for pennies on the dollar at the LFS.

It's unfortunate, but a select few people can ruin it for everybody else. Nobody gets the benefit of the doubt unless they are well known members that other well known members know on a personal level.

This is the kind of low-balling that drives me crazy. But at the same time, I wouldn't have paid him what he paid for that tank. :) If I can get it from a retailer for what im paying him for it, im going to get it from the retailer. That way, if there is an unseen flaw, I have a chance of getting my money back. Its also definitely somewhere between 1/2 price and full... Maybe 90% of value or so. The fact that no one offered him asking price contributes to what we have been talking about with perceived value, and market price being the whole reason negotiating is necessary.

[jrp1588]

Hobbies are great for building negotiation skills. I've saved several hundred dollars in go fast parts for my Subaru alone in the past few months by shooting a very low initial offer, and then meeting in the middle. I usually start around 60% of asking price and work up. (got $400 off of a used turbo on ebay a month ago doing this, they actually accepted the initial offer) 50% offers tend to annoy me when I'm selling, so I don't want to step on the seller's toes.

Asking for the lowest price they'll take is just a lazy shortcut. I'll usually knock around 10% off my asking price if someone pulls that on me when I probably would have done 25% off had they done the dance. That being said, I'm glad I don't have to haggle prices when I go to the grocery store like some places in the world.

[pisanoal]

I am utterly amazed at a lot of the opinions in this thread. Everyone is entitled to theirs, but wow this is eye opening.


I don't understand the idea that negotiating (in good faith) is antagonistic. Maybe some people just don't like it and are uncomfortable, because they aren't good at it.

Buyers can come with a low offer, but the seller can't start with a high offer? That is a weird position to take. If it is too much work for you to make an offer and negotiate toward an acceptable deal, as the buyer, then you deserve to either pay more than you could have, or to have to look elsewhere for a better deal. If it is too much work as the seller to negotiate toward an acceptable deal, then you deserve to get less than what you could have, or have to wait for another buyer to come along.

And by the way, where is the rule that says the seller has to come down to his minimum acceptable offer every time? That is a skewed view. The seller might have multiple potential buyers, in which case, the buyers are competing with each other. But, the seller might be competing with other sellers for the attention of a single buyer. It is all about leverage, who has it, and who doesn't, just like it should. Kinda sounds like supply and demand, no?

Any time that one party wants to sell an item, that item has a certain value to them, and a separate value to the buyer. How bad does the buyer want it, how bad does the seller need to sell it, how hard is it to find, how many are available, all those things come into it. Working toward a price that meets both parties' perceived value is not by any means antagonistic. You don't have to make a deal. If the price is too high, you don't have to buy it. If the offer is too low, you don't have to sell it.

A seller can't force the buyer to purchase it, and vice-versa. So I don't know what the problem is. I have never been offended by a low ball offer, I just make a counter offer. Sometimes that leads to additional negotiation, sometimes not.

As the seller or the buyer, you have no idea of the other party's situation. They might be willing to spend way more than what you think. Or they might be willing to sell it for way less than their initial price. Chances are you will never know, and ultimately, that is a good thing.

It would be interesting to know everybody's age in this thread. I am 44. My guess would be that there are a lot of millennials in this thread.



I am a "millennial" at 29, but I'm not sure how that comes into play as all of my posts are in agreement with everything you have said here...

[tklb]

I am a "millennial" at 29, but I'm not sure how that comes into play as all of my posts are in agreement with everything you have said here...

I just find it very interesting that many millennials are very pro socialism and anti-capitalism.

Obviously not all, as you prove. I have a lot of friends that are millennials, and they have some very unique views.

[Rakie]

That said, I NEVER get mad at lowball offers. Lots of people do, and they need to be thicker skinned. Like people who list "NO LOW BALLS!" in their ad. I just skip over those if I'm a buyer. If I get a lowball offer, I reply nicely that the lowest I would take is $x. I have sold several times to people who initially offered ridiculous amounts but later came up to something reasonable.

I feel you, but it does get aggravating at times. There are some... 'characters' out there.

There's a guy on another forum I frequent. He's begging to buy a Radion G3, refuses to pay more than $150 for it.. Yet he's selling a ratty old poorly repaired Octopus 1000 skimmer for $160.. When *that* guy emails you an 'offer' you know it's gonna really good for a laugh, and not much else. When he PM's you about every single item, multiple times.. It gets old, fast.

[pisanoal]

I just find it very interesting that many millennials are very pro socialism and anti-capitalism.

Obviously not all, as you prove. I have a lot of friends that are millennials, and they have some very unique views.

Haha. I'm not going to lie, I took a little offense to that comment. But your post says why...

[Rakie]

I just find it very interesting that many millennials are very pro socialism and anti-capitalism.

Obviously not all, as you prove. I have a lot of friends that are millennials, and they have some very unique views.

I think it's because big business is basically the devil, and people are seeing that more clearly, even at younger ages.

The kids on campus are 'meh' about politics. They're meh about almost every single topic there is, but they all hate big corporations.

[tklb]

I think it's because big business is basically the devil, and people are seeing that more clearly, even at younger ages.

The kids on campus are 'meh' about politics. They're meh about almost every single topic there is, but they all hate big corporations.

I would disagree, and say that the younger generation doesn't know what socialism really is. Not their fault, they just aren't being taught.

Don't want to take this topic too far away from the OP's original premise.

Back to Negotiating...

[pisanoal]

I think it's because big business is basically the devil, and people are seeing that more clearly, even at younger ages.

The kids on campus are 'meh' about politics. They're meh about almost every single topic there is, but they all hate big corporations.

I don't know where you got that they are "meh" about politics, but from what I have seen, that is very false. Of course, the more vehement ones are the ones you notice more, but I see them as for the most part strongly liberal and very vocal about it. Which is funny to me, because most of them haven't had to earn anything yet, hence the "socialism" views. I was not very political in college, because I recognized I didn't know enough yet. Obviously what I said is not ubiquitous, just my observation.

[pisanoal]

I would disagree, and say that the younger generation doesn't know what socialism really is. Not their fault, they just aren't being taught.

Don't want to take this topic too far away from the OP's original premise.

Back to Negotiating...

Yes, back on topic... haha

[Bent]

Considering the amount of people who suffered and died at the hands of communist dictators, the amount of people who died fighting those communist dictators and those people who are currently living in the throes of socialism, i think you have the wrong "devil". Make no mistake about it, despite the current propaganda being spit out, the only difference between socialism and communism is a gun.

The demonization of businesses and corporations and anti-capitalistic propaganda is a huge problem in this country today, and it's all done for the monetary and power gain of those individuals pushing it.

Capitalism and business is the heart of America, if people don't like it, there are jets and boats that leave every day.

[Rakie]

I don't know where you got that they are "meh" about politics, but from what I have seen, that is very false. Of course, the more vehement ones are the ones you notice more, but I see them as for the most part strongly liberal and very vocal about it. Which is funny to me, because most of them haven't had to earn anything yet, hence the "socialism" views. I was not very political in college, because I recognized I didn't know enough yet. Obviously what I said is not ubiquitous, just my observation.

I get it from me being a college student surrounded by students who couldn't give a rats about politics. Yeah, young people are engaged in politics as well, but in all my courses when politics come up those who have actual concerns are the *vast* minority. As a whole, were rather short-sighted. Most students care more about whats happening Friday then next year.

I think that could be in part due to politicians all but refusing to take any stances on anything outside the obvious party generalities. When asked who votes in sociology, a class of 70'ish students had less than 10 who bother to vote.

[Bent]

I get it from me being a college student surrounded by students who couldn't give a rats about politics. Yeah, young people are engaged in politics as well, but in all my courses when politics come up those who have actual concerns are the *vast* minority. As a whole, were rather short-sighted. Most students care more about whats happening Friday then next year.

I think that could be in part due to politicians all but refusing to take any stances on anything outside the obvious party generalities. When asked who votes in sociology, a class of 70'ish students had less than 10 who bother to vote.

Can you blame them? I don't. Craps depressing dude.

[hkgar]

I just find it very interesting that many millennials are very pro socialism and anti-capitalism.

Interesting, I felt the same way about those who think that negotiating is "antagonistic". Sort of, let someone else tell me what to do.

Oh and I am the OP and age 72. Been around a bit, but didn't expect this amount of reaction to my post. WOW

[itz frank]

Considering the amount of people who suffered and died at the hands of communist dictators, the amount of people who died fighting those communist dictators and those people who are currently living in the throes of socialism, i think you have the wrong "devil". Make no mistake about it, despite the current propaganda being spit out, the only difference between socialism and communism is a gun.

The demonization of businesses and corporations and anti-capitalistic propaganda is a huge problem in this country today, and it's all done for the monetary and power gain of those individuals pushing it.

Capitalism and business is the heart of America, if people don't like it, there are jets and boats that leave every day.

We're leaving the original topic but remind me how the most recent Wells Fargo venture benefited anyone pro-capitalism.

I'm 31 and I share a mixed view of this. The biggest problem that we have is that people deserve to be paid for their services and the consumer deserves to not be ripped off. So, at a certain point there needs to be some governing of what "fair" pay for "fair" services is. Winning in capitalism, IMO, is where everyone loses. The seller doesn't get everything they want and neither does the buyer. But that's kind of the idea behind capitalism. Businesses openly competing with each other to create a fair market for everyone.

Unfortunately, bad business is more than just propaganda and the idea that capitalism itself will govern itself is as skewed as me saying that socialism is a good idea.

I feel that you need to find grounds in the middle for everyone to win.

Also, I'm 31 and I sell cars for a living. I feel that I deserve to be paid for my time and my product. But at the same time, you as the consumer do not deserve to be taken advantage of. I pay retail for almost everything as long as I get good service and the product that I'm getting is as promised. Period.



I think that the nail was hit on the head earlier. The buyer is not required to buy. The seller is also not required to sell. If you don't like negotiating, pay asking price or move on.

[EMeyer]

I'm 40, very pro capitalism, very anti socialism. This isnt political. Its about civilized behavior. Haggling is something you encounter in third world countries and not something we should import to our society.

Its inherently antagonistic to expect the buyer to haggle because of the dishonesty. The price youve listed isnt the actual price you expect to receive? Then just save us both some time and be honest about the price in the first place.

Its inherently antagonistic to the seller because theyve listed their price, and now youre gonna try to give them less? They just told you the price, what makes you such a special unique snowflake that you get to have it for less?

"Developing negotiating skills". Thats like telling me I need to develop some sleight of hand skills so I can slip merchandise in my pockets without anyone noticing. Yes it would benefit me, but no its not how the world should work.

To be clear, I'm not arguing its unethical or illegal to expect haggling. Just very rude, rude enough I'm immediately no longer interested in any kind of transactions with the person. We dont all have to agree. But its useful to know when the behavior youre encouraging ****es off a fraction of society.

[hkgar]

Two important principle of the free market. Sorry to use the Latin, but I would encourage those who don't understand these principles to look them up and study them.

Caveat emptor
laissez-faire

[hbrochs]

I'm 40, very pro capitalism, very anti socialism. This isnt political. Its about civilized behavior. Haggling is something you encounter in third world countries and not something we should import to our society.

Its inherently antagonistic to expect the buyer to haggle because of the dishonesty. The price youve listed isnt the actual price you expect to receive? Then just save us both some time and be honest about the price in the first place.

Its inherently antagonistic to the seller because theyve listed their price, and now youre gonna try to give them less? They just told you the price, what makes you such a special unique snowflake that you get to have it for less?

"Developing negotiating skills". Thats like telling me I need to develop some sleight of hand skills so I can slip merchandise in my pockets without anyone noticing. Yes it would benefit me, but no its not how the world should work.

To be clear, I'm not arguing its unethical or illegal to expect haggling. Just very rude, rude enough I'm immediately no longer interested in any kind of transactions with the person. We dont all have to agree. But its useful to know when the behavior youre encouraging ****es off a fraction of society.

I don't understand how negotiating for a used item is rude. There are plenty of situations where the price is fixed, groceries, gas and the like. My car, Tesla, is sold at a fixed price. I knew this going in, and it was a great stress free buying experience. So its nice when the buyer offers the item at a fair price and the seller just pays it. Say its a high priced item, like an ELOS tank thats a year old. I don't see where its rude to make an offer below the ask.

I sold my mom's car on Craigslist in one day. I priced it just a little below blue book. Got multiple offers, and we got to choose the buyer that we liked the best. Each situation is different depending on supply and demand.

[scooters reef]

I'm glad I didn't just "accept" the offered price on my new house!!!! I also got many low-ball offers when selling my previous house. In the end, a different price was negotiated on each. On my old house I simply refused the low-ball offers, countered for those at least in the ballpark. In the end, one of those low-ball offers I refused outright with no counter came back with a 2nd offer close enough to accept. LOL, well below what I "hoped" for, but carrying two mortgages and maintenance adds up fast!!

Why should it be any different here? Used cars, rummage sales, all are open for offers. Just refuse the ones you don't like!!! If buying, know you may be refused and miss the deal. When I did my tear down I held pretty firm on my prices initially, then started coming down to move it all. On the other side of the coin I have sent messages to some sellers here and was surprised how offended they were. I always pointed out I KNEW it was a low-ball, hoped they got what they were asking, but clarified I have a LOT of time before I need the equipment so just give me a shout if/when they would accept it if it doesn't sell for them otherwise. 99% say thanks and get into side discussions, 1% flips out as if I was somehow denigrating what they were selling. Also, none were HUGE low balls, but just a little below what I'd seen others go for and time to wait.

With that said, I've never sent anyone a message but get a kick how many ask as much, or more, than I could get it new at BRS after accounting for the credits on next purchase. Why would I do that? Then sending an offer 10-15% below what I can get it brand new is offensive. LOL, I just move on!

[hkgar]

To those who believe is is rude, antagonistic or whatever you call it, negotiation takes place for every, new and used and if new and not controlled by MSRP). Any time you shop for a bargain by comparing prices you have participated in negotiation. But than there are those who believe it is virtually criminal for "big box" stores to sell for less.

[EMeyer]

Its funny how much pushback this simple idea is getting.

No, bargains are nothing like negotiation. The buyer knows ahead of time what the price is, and two buyers at the same store get the same price. The price doesnt depend on haggling (i.e. being an annoying SOB), so that some people get a good price and others get a bad price. Advertised bargains are equitable -- everyone gets the same bargain.

Yes, negotiating also happens with big ticket purchases like cars and houses. I'm not clear how thats a rebuttal. I am equally annoyed in those cases and if I could flip a switch and change history, I'd make it so that we didnt accept haggling in those cases either. Just like we dont accept haggling for a new TV, a gallon of milk, or a gallon of gasoline.


The expectation that if I dont haggle I'll pay a higher price is offensive. The fact that if someone else comes in after me and haggles, theyll get a better price, is ethically questionable at best.

Like I said -- we dont all have to agree. But when someone points out that they find a practice rude, whats the point of arguing? Thats like continuing to use the word retarded after people tell you theyre offended by it. Youre not offended, so do you argue with them and try to talk them out of it? Or do you take that as a learning opportunity, and realize that its a word that offends some people?

[jmm]

I'm 40, very pro capitalism, very anti socialism. This isnt political. Its about civilized behavior. Haggling is something you encounter in third world countries and not something we should import to our society.

Its inherently antagonistic to expect the buyer to haggle because of the dishonesty. The price youve listed isnt the actual price you expect to receive? Then just save us both some time and be honest about the price in the first place.

Its inherently antagonistic to the seller because theyve listed their price, and now youre gonna try to give them less? They just told you the price, what makes you such a special unique snowflake that you get to have it for less?

"Developing negotiating skills". Thats like telling me I need to develop some sleight of hand skills so I can slip merchandise in my pockets without anyone noticing. Yes it would benefit me, but no its not how the world should work.

To be clear, I'm not arguing its unethical or illegal to expect haggling. Just very rude, rude enough I'm immediately no longer interested in any kind of transactions with the person. We dont all have to agree. But its useful to know when the behavior youre encouraging ****es off a fraction of society.

This is how I feel, too.

[hkgar]

Have you ever bought something at a store that advertises We'll beat any advertised price?

The free market is a constant process of negotiation made through the billions of selling/buying decisions made every day

[Bent]

The bottom line is that unless you haggle someone, your being ripped off. It's the sellers job to make as much money as possible. It's the buyers job to spend the least money possible.

I would never in 100 years buy a car or much anything else at a "set" price. It just means your being ripped off, and I guess some people are cool with that. I'm not.

Personally, I could care less if haggling someone is considered abrasive in today's cupcake lilly liver society. I'm going to look out for myself and my own wallet, it's not the sellers job to do that, it's mine.

[scooters reef]

My wife has the same issues. She LOVES rummage sales, but will never ask. Someone will have something out for $5, but to HER it's only worth $2. Why not offer the $2? If the answer is "No", then so be it. It may be worth $20 to someone else and they get a steal!

How do you price anything used? Say, a return pump. Some potential buyers may prefer it be almost new, some ok with it being older if not used much, others only worried about energy usage, or any other number of things. To YOU it may be worth much more. Maybe you only want to upgrade if/when you can get what you think is a good price. Maybe you simply need to sell it FAST. The buyer may only be looking to upgrade if/when a good price is found, or could need it NOW!

How do you put a price on all those variables? You can't. You put up a price where you hope you can get what it's worth to YOU. Others will offer what it's worth to THEM. If they don't match, then no deal. If they match, then what's the problem with that? Anyone selling anything used is making an educated guess, at best, on what it may be worth to others.

[Bent]

My wife has the same issues. She LOVES rummage sales, but will never ask. Someone will have something out for $5, but to HER it's only worth $2. Why not offer the $2? If the answer is "No", then so be it. It may be worth $20 to someone else and they get a steal!

How do you price anything used? Say, a return pump. Some potential buyers may prefer it be almost new, some ok with it being older if not used much, others only worried about energy usage, or any other number of things. To YOU it may be worth much more. Maybe you only want to upgrade if/when you can get what you think is a good price. Maybe you simply need to sell it FAST. The buyer may only be looking to upgrade if/when a good price is found, or could need it NOW!

How do you put a price on all those variables? You can't. You put up a price where you hope you can get what it's worth to YOU. Others will offer what it's worth to THEM. If they don't match, then no deal. If they match, then what's the problem with that? Anyone selling anything used is making an educated guess, at best, on what it may be worth to others.


Shrug,

I guess that's why "obo" came about. Me personally, if I sell something, I set the price at double my lowest price and say obo.

This way if I want to get 50 bucks out of something, I may end up getting 55 or 60.

[reef thief]

People will express interest and then rather than making an offer, they ask what I will take.


If you are interested, why don't you make an offer? I don't understand?

.

OMG. I just dealt with this the last 3 months selling my house. Luckily I'm making money on this sale and had equity built already. But there's an asking price for a reason. I offered the family across the street $20,000 off of asking price and they agreed but still struggle to meet the financing on the place after the price cut. They stalled as long as they could but I can't back out now because the house is in Wisconsin. No one will buy a house this time of year.

[scooters reef]

Shrug,

I guess that's why "obo" came about. Me personally, if I sell something, I set the price at double my lowest price and say obo.

This way if I want to get 50 bucks out of something, I may end up getting 55 or 60.

Sorry, that was directed at the "set price" responses and not yours. However, stating "OBO", or "Firm" does help :)

[Potatohead]

Plain and simple..

You ask $100..
I might say.. "well would you take $75?"
and you say "sure"... (because you would have taken $60 so $15 more is great and that benefits you)
and now I'm thinking.. "crap.. what if I said $60"...

So by asking what is the lowest you'd take I assume I'm going to get the lowest price and not risk offering more than you would have taken as a bottom..


Just bad negotiation all around. If I was the seller in this situation I probably wouldn't even accept the first number right away, even if it was at or higher than I wanted. I would have come back with "sorry, but no, I will go to $85."

[SecretiveFish]

I have been having some similar musing about negotiations recently... I had one person offer 50% of asking price, I countered and they disappeared... Were they insulted that I countered because they were convinced I would go for their offer? Did they find a better deal (doubt it)? Fall off the face of the earth?

I know I will never get an answer but am perplexed nonetheless.

[Ghost25]

Interesting to see everyone's perspectives. As a buyer I usually only contact people selling something in the ballpark of what I consider fair or a good deal. I don't make a lower offer over text or email. I check it out, maybe chat for a minute, point out any flaws or defects that would bring down the price. Then I'll usually ask if they'll take 10-20% less than advertised. Negotiate if they're willing and if their not I usually buy anyway.

I'll usually only low ball if I'm at a flea market or garage sale, something where I didn't arrange to meet the person. I usually don't bother messaging if I think the price starts too high even if I think they might come down a bit.

[jayball]

In general I will offer lower than asking if it says OBO, assuming I think it should be priced lower.

[jrp1588]

Its funny how much pushback this simple idea is getting.

No, bargains are nothing like negotiation. The buyer knows ahead of time what the price is, and two buyers at the same store get the same price. The price doesnt depend on haggling (i.e. being an annoying SOB), so that some people get a good price and others get a bad price. Advertised bargains are equitable -- everyone gets the same bargain.

Yes, negotiating also happens with big ticket purchases like cars and houses. I'm not clear how thats a rebuttal. I am equally annoyed in those cases and if I could flip a switch and change history, I'd make it so that we didnt accept haggling in those cases either. Just like we dont accept haggling for a new TV, a gallon of milk, or a gallon of gasoline.


The expectation that if I dont haggle I'll pay a higher price is offensive. The fact that if someone else comes in after me and haggles, theyll get a better price, is ethically questionable at best.

Like I said -- we dont all have to agree. But when someone points out that they find a practice rude, whats the point of arguing? Thats like continuing to use the word retarded after people tell you theyre offended by it. Youre not offended, so do you argue with them and try to talk them out of it? Or do you take that as a learning opportunity, and realize that its a word that offends some people?

You're entitled to your opinion, and I don't think anyone is bothered that you have it. The problem is, like it or not, this is how things work. You can stand on principle and not haggle, but all it's going to get you is a lighter wallet. I don't enjoy haggling, but I do enjoy getting the best deal I can, and realistically that comes from haggling.

[pisanoal]

Its funny how much pushback this simple idea is getting.

No, bargains are nothing like negotiation. The buyer knows ahead of time what the price is, and two buyers at the same store get the same price. The price doesnt depend on haggling (i.e. being an annoying SOB), so that some people get a good price and others get a bad price. Advertised bargains are equitable -- everyone gets the same bargain.

Yes, negotiating also happens with big ticket purchases like cars and houses. I'm not clear how thats a rebuttal. I am equally annoyed in those cases and if I could flip a switch and change history, I'd make it so that we didnt accept haggling in those cases either. Just like we dont accept haggling for a new TV, a gallon of milk, or a gallon of gasoline.


The expectation that if I dont haggle I'll pay a higher price is offensive. The fact that if someone else comes in after me and haggles, theyll get a better price, is ethically questionable at best.

Like I said -- we dont all have to agree. But when someone points out that they find a practice rude, whats the point of arguing? Thats like continuing to use the word retarded after people tell you theyre offended by it. Youre not offended, so do you argue with them and try to talk them out of it? Or do you take that as a learning opportunity, and realize that its a word that offends some people?


I'm confused how you are not doing the same thing as you pointed out in your last paragraph... But aside from that, if you don't want your point countered, then why are you participating in a discussion between two sides? Inherently, there is going to be a point made, and a rebuttal. Do you find discussions with two opposing sides offensive and rude too? I can only imagine where we would be as a civilization without disagreements... No one would ever prove any preconception wrong. Hmm, I guess the earth is flat since disagreeing is rude.

And as far as negotiating goes, if you are fine listing your house at the value that you think it has, which probably has zero emotional attachment(sarcasm), and not selling it because it is too high for market value and no one wants to be "rude." Then by all means, keep it. Or you can wait 6 months, drop the price, wait another 6 months, drop it again... have fun taking 3 years to sell your house. And by the way, this is directly relevant to this conversation. Same exact principles at play. As stated numerous times, there is no way to determine an exact value of worth on a used item until you both come to an agreed upon price. Doesn't have to be a scammer seller, or a rude buyer. Seller lists for what they think its worth, someone comes by and says well I just paid a little lower for same item, ill give you that price for this one. Accept or don't. You can find it rude if you like, but its just targeting a value.

And we aren't "bringing" anything to our country. It was here long before you or I were born, and predates our ancestors unless you are Native American.

[EMeyer]

I'm not criticizing anyone for having a different opinion on this. As you point out, its only because there are differences of opinion that the conversation is worth having.

It goes both ways. The conversation is interesting to me because it blows my mind anyone would defend haggling. I find it incredibly rude and will literally walk away in most cases. But its worth having this conversation because it helps both sides realize where the other is coming from. It tempers my reaction. Instead of cussing the person out I am now inclined to instead quietly walk away.

As for "bringing something to our country" -- yeah, we used to crap in a hole in the ground. Then we invented the flush toilet. There are countries where they still crap in a hole in the ground. I dont support bringing that practice just because we used to do it here.

As a society, we've moved beyond haggling for almost everything. It only remains for big ticket items (houses and cars) and used items. I'm looking forward to the future when we move beyond haggling altogether. In the meantime I've avoid it as much as possible, and argue we should not expect it or encourage it.

[Bent]

I'm not criticizing anyone for having a different opinion on this. As you point out, its only because there are differences of opinion that the conversation is worth having.

It goes both ways. The conversation is interesting to me because it blows my mind anyone would defend haggling. I find it incredibly rude and will literally walk away in most cases. But its worth having this conversation because it helps both sides realize where the other is coming from. It tempers my reaction. Instead of cussing the person out I am now inclined to instead quietly walk away.

As for "bringing something to our country" -- yeah, we used to crap in a hole in the ground. Then we invented the flush toilet. There are countries where they still crap in a hole in the ground. I dont support bringing that practice just because we used to do it here.

As a society, we've moved beyond haggling for almost everything. It only remains for big ticket items (houses and cars) and used items. I'm looking forward to the future when we move beyond haggling altogether. In the meantime I've avoid it as much as possible, and argue we should not expect it or encourage it.

This might be the most frightening thing I've ever read...

[jayball]

This might be the most frightening thing I've ever read...



First time on the Internet?

[Bent]

First time on the Internet?

Nope.

[HippieSmell]

Considering the amount of people who suffered and died at the hands of communist dictators, the amount of people who died fighting those communist dictators and those people who are currently living in the throes of socialism, i think you have the wrong "devil". Make no mistake about it, despite the current propaganda being spit out, the only difference between socialism and communism is a gun.

The demonization of businesses and corporations and anti-capitalistic propaganda is a huge problem in this country today, and it's all done for the monetary and power gain of those individuals pushing it.

Capitalism and business is the heart of America, if people don't like it, there are jets and boats that leave every day.
Socialism is not communism. Capitalism is not democracy.

[GriffinMarsh]

As a buyer...
I want to pay the lowest price..
If I don't want to offend you and just totally low ball you I will ask what is the lowest you are comfortable taking..
Any offer I make that I don't believe is a low ball... I will always second guess myself "did I get his lowest price"..
I take a chance that the seller will give me his lowest offer if I ask..or that the offer he gives is lower than I would have asked because I didn't want to low ball/offend..


As a seller..
I want the highest price..
I also don't want to be offended by low ballers over and over..
If someone asks me whats the lowest I will take I will give a price that I'm comfortable with..

This is my practice as well for most items. Luckily Ive been in the hobby long enough to see what most things should sell for, but at times I feel like corals especially, aren't described appropriately, or called something similar but maybe aren't. So if that happens and the price is reflecting a designer piece price for something that might not be I will ask what is the lowest they are willing to take. If I'm interested in a piece, but feel the price is high, I don't want to offend a seller by giving my honest offer. When they come back and say give me an offer, and I do, they seem more often than not to get offended. Unless its a friend, then we argue over prices consistently.

[tklb]

I'm 40, very pro capitalism, very anti socialism. This isnt political. Its about civilized behavior. Haggling is something you encounter in third world countries and not something we should import to our society.

Its inherently antagonistic to expect the buyer to haggle because of the dishonesty. The price youve listed isnt the actual price you expect to receive? Then just save us both some time and be honest about the price in the first place.

Its inherently antagonistic to the seller because theyve listed their price, and now youre gonna try to give them less? They just told you the price, what makes you such a special unique snowflake that you get to have it for less?

"Developing negotiating skills". Thats like telling me I need to develop some sleight of hand skills so I can slip merchandise in my pockets without anyone noticing. Yes it would benefit me, but no its not how the world should work.

To be clear, I'm not arguing its unethical or illegal to expect haggling. Just very rude, rude enough I'm immediately no longer interested in any kind of transactions with the person. We dont all have to agree. But its useful to know when the behavior youre encouraging ****es off a fraction of society.

I just don't get how having an honest variance in perceived value and working toward a price/value agreeable to both parties is rude. You keep calling it rude and antagonistic, but it just simply is not. If you are intimidated by the practice, then I guess I can see how you would perceive it as rude or antagonsitic, and of course there are some scumbags out there, but in general it is neither rude nor antagonistic.

I don't understand how you can be "Very Pro Capitalism", yet anti-haggling. It is all about supply and demand, and leverage, and finding common ground in value. I hope you don't own any Gold, Silver, Commodities, Stocks etc. Because those are ALL priced based on what people are willing to sell for and what people are willing to buy for. Or are you OK with those prices being 'Haggled' in that sense, since it is not you doing the haggling?

[Bent]

Socialism is not communism. Capitalism is not democracy.



1: Yes it is. Communism is a political model, socialism is a financial model. Communism in all forms used a socialist economic system.
2: I never said it was.
3: the US isn't a democracy

[HippieSmell]

1: Yes it is. Communism is a political system which uses socialism as an economic system.
2: I never said it was.
3: America isn't a democracy

OK, capitalism isn't a republic, then. You're conflating economic models with social models. Most of Europe is socialist, and our ally. What's so evil about Europe?

I would also point out that the US isn't a pure capitalist state, either.

[Breadman03]

Yep.



I always list a price with "OBO", like say $100 OBO. If someone emails me and says, "What's your best/lowest price?", I just reply with "$100 Or Best Offer".



That said, I NEVER get mad at lowball offers. Lots of people do, and they need to be thicker skinned. Like people who list "NO LOW BALLS!" in their ad. I just skip over those if I'm a buyer. If I get a lowball offer, I reply nicely that the lowest I would take is $x. I have sold several times to people who initially offered ridiculous amounts but later came up to something reasonable.



I once low balled someone for 5 Radions. He asked if I was joking. I told him that I was serious, had the cash for all five ready to go and that he wouldn't need to deal with piecing them out across multiple buyers. We agreed on a slightly higher price and now we're FB buddies.

There's a big difference between making a lowball offer to negotiate from and being an ignorant buyer who is a pain to deal with.

[Bent]

OK, capitalism isn't a republic, then. You're conflating economic models with social models. Most of Europe is socialist, and our ally. What's so evil about Europe?

I would also point out that the US isn't a pure capitalist state, either.

you have to conflate socialism and communism, one would not exist without the other.

I never said europe was evil either, I was merely making the point to the other gentleman (or woman) that demonizing capitalism and romanticizing socialism is completely backward considering the sizeable body count that socialist governments have racked up over the course of a century.

[gone fishin]

As for "bringing something to our country" -- yeah, we used to crap in a hole in the ground. Then we invented the flush toilet. There are countries where they still crap in a hole in the ground. I dont support bringing that practice just because we used to do it here.



Never been camping I take it.:lol:

[Breadman03]

never been Infantry i take it.:lol:


ftfm :)

[CStrickland]

I used to be nervous about haggling, until I lived in a country where it was more part of the culture. Now I don't mind, and it can even be a fun interaction like a friendly competition.

you have to conflate socialism and communism, one would not exist without the other.

But when you do that it sounds like you think Canada or the Netherlands have the same body-counts as the USSR or China. Socialism absolutely exists without communism, and without authoritarianism.

[Bent]

I used to be nervous about haggling, until I lived in a country where it was more part of the culture. Now I don't mind, and it can even be a fun interaction like a friendly competition.



But when you do that it sounds like you think Canada or the Netherlands have the same body-counts as the USSR or China. Socialism absolutely exists without communism, and without authoritarianism.

Those places aren't pure socialist and it's not the individual country I have a problem with. Socialist economics was born from communism and other forms of authoritative models. If a form of capitalist republic government like the USA was so evil and profitable, more dictators would be doing it, they aren't. There is a reason that socialism is the economic model of choice for evil power hungry dictators.

Again, I have zero desire to dabble in an economic model that literally millions of people like many members of my family and many other families, have died fighting. Just my opinion.

But anyways, I'm derailing this thread. Sorry.

[hkgar]

Socialism is not communism. Capitalism is not democracy.

One is a government system and one is an economic system. Many don't any longer understand the difference as the government has become far too involved in the economic system.

PS. We are nt supposed to be a democracy, but rather a republic.

[pisanoal]

I'm not criticizing anyone for having a different opinion on this. As you point out, its only because there are differences of opinion that the conversation is worth having.

It goes both ways. The conversation is interesting to me because it blows my mind anyone would defend haggling. I find it incredibly rude and will literally walk away in most cases. But its worth having this conversation because it helps both sides realize where the other is coming from. It tempers my reaction. Instead of cussing the person out I am now inclined to instead quietly walk away.

As for "bringing something to our country" -- yeah, we used to crap in a hole in the ground. Then we invented the flush toilet. There are countries where they still crap in a hole in the ground. I dont support bringing that practice just because we used to do it here.

As a society, we've moved beyond haggling for almost everything. It only remains for big ticket items (houses and cars) and used items. I'm looking forward to the future when we move beyond haggling altogether. In the meantime I've avoid it as much as possible, and argue we should not expect it or encourage it.
I had to laugh at the crapping in a hole in the ground... Haha. You bring up a valid point. However, even that still has its place in our country... Ever been back country camping? Its pretty rude to just leave a turd sitting out in the open, and I'd really rather not have the wilderness littered with gas stations and rest stops. I appreciate all those things when I get back, but they belong where they belong and they don't where they don't. My point is, just because something is outdated, doesn't mean it doesn't still have its proper place in our world. There are many more examples, antique cars, forging by hand, painting a picture, etc. These are all outdated practices made "better", faster, more convenient by modern technology. Yet some antique cars are worth more then most new ones, a hand forged knife costs 10-100x as much as what you would by at the store, and a lot of times is better, and the same goes for paintings.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[pisanoal]

I also hope you don't take offense to the "arguing" as for the most point I try not to cause any. I appreciate the discussions.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[pisanoal]

One is a government system and one is an economic system. Many don't any longer understand the difference as the government has become far too involved in the economic system.

PS. We are nt supposed to be a democracy, but rather a republic.
Democratic Rebuplic, although we function more like a straight republic more and more...

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[Bent]

I also hope you don't take offense to the "arguing" as for the most point I try not to cause any. I appreciate the discussions.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

Same. Sometimes there's a fine line between arguing and discussing. Especially on the internet where body language and tone of voice are removed from the equation. I wasn't out to argue, just discuss.

[cleverbs]

I don't get this idea of buyers wanting to get the "absolute lowest price" that people are talking about. As a buyer I have no interest at all in making sure I scrap the buyer for every penny I can. I am only concerned about 2 things. A.) Is this a fair price for the item. This can easily be figured out by what the item is and its condition. B.) Do I feel comfortable with this price.

I buy very little used however for my new build I did buy three used items.

I got 2 MP40s and a 24wx8bulb ATI fixture. Now I can look at these items and know the quality of the item because they are well known products. The ATI was listed at a very fair price plus I saw it when it first posted I was comfortable with the price it was listed at and knew the desire these fixtures have in the market place so I paid his asking price. Could I have gotten it for 25$ cheaper? Maybe. Do I care that I missed out on 25$ because I got a 600$ fixture + 6x Almost new bulbs for 45% of the cost of the items new? No I didn't.

Same goes with the two MP40s I got. We see them sell all the time so we know what they are worth and we know how well they hold their value.

where we get into trouble and where I stay away from used products is on brands that don't have the best rep like jaboe I am not going to buy a 6 month old jaboe off a guy for anything more then 20% or so of its value because its just not worth it.

we should never go into negotiation as a goal to screw each other we want to go into find a fair price for both to pay. just because the buy asks for 100$ and I say no 50$ doesn't mean that the true fair price is 75$. I sell to a lot of people locally equipment when I am done with it, fish, and coral. For some reason people are obsessed with the pay as little as possible for something idea. I sell amazing gold vile angel fish for 6$ each. Cheap as can be. I just like breeding them and I can recoup some money at 6$ each. I will have people ask me if they can buy them at 3$...you are getting a $18+ angel that is locally raised and you want to get it for 3$ instead of the 6$ I am asking. I decline any off like that because I know my price is fair and they are just trying to take advantage of thinking I need to unload them and ill just take anything I can get. That isn't true at all I can easily take them to the many fish stores and unload them any time I want.

[jrp1588]

I don't get this idea of buyers wanting to get the "absolute lowest price" that people are talking about. As a buyer I have no interest at all in making sure I scrap the buyer for every penny I can. I am only concerned about 2 things. A.) Is this a fair price for the item. This can easily be figured out by what the item is and its condition. B.) Do I feel comfortable with this price.

I buy very little used however for my new build I did buy three used items.

I got 2 MP40s and a 24wx8bulb ATI fixture. Now I can look at these items and know the quality of the item because they are well known products. The ATI was listed at a very fair price plus I saw it when it first posted I was comfortable with the price it was listed at and knew the desire these fixtures have in the market place so I paid his asking price. Could I have gotten it for 25$ cheaper? Maybe. Do I care that I missed out on 25$ because I got a 600$ fixture + 6x Almost new bulbs for 45% of the cost of the items new? No I didn't.

Same goes with the two MP40s I got. We see them sell all the time so we know what they are worth and we know how well they hold their value.

where we get into trouble and where I stay away from used products is on brands that don't have the best rep like jaboe I am not going to buy a 6 month old jaboe off a guy for anything more then 20% or so of its value because its just not worth it.

we should never go into negotiation as a goal to screw each other we want to go into find a fair price for both to pay. just because the buy asks for 100$ and I say no 50$ doesn't mean that the true fair price is 75$. I sell to a lot of people locally equipment when I am done with it, fish, and coral. For some reason people are obsessed with the pay as little as possible for something idea. I sell amazing gold vile angel fish for 6$ each. Cheap as can be. I just like breeding them and I can recoup some money at 6$ each. I will have people ask me if they can buy them at 3$...you are getting a $18+ angel that is locally raised and you want to get it for 3$ instead of the 6$ I am asking. I decline any off like that because I know my price is fair and they are just trying to take advantage of thinking I need to unload them and ill just take anything I can get. That isn't true at all I can easily take them to the many fish stores and unload them any time I want.

If i can save $25 on a $600 fixture, I'm going to save that $25. That's over an hour worth of work at my payscale, time I'll never get back. I don't usually dicker around with low dollar items, but if it's over about $50, you better believe I'm going to try to shave a bit off if I can. I'm not made of money.

[scooters reef]

So, Cleverbs, you were quite happy getting bulbs at only 45% of new price. Let's say you regularly see them sell for 50-60%, so that was a good deal and you took it. Now, someone lists one at 75%. Is that still a good deal to you? I'd assume you would pass, knowing another will come along at some point wanting less than 60%. If passing on it anyway, "haggling" would be no more than letting the seller know that you would be willing to pay up to 50% of new, but will otherwise pass. Because you already know what it's worth to you, as well as the frequency in which the item sells in the range you feel is fair.

[Potatohead]

I don't get this idea of buyers wanting to get the "absolute lowest price" that people are talking about. As a buyer I have no interest at all in making sure I scrap the buyer for every penny I can. I am only concerned about 2 things. A.) Is this a fair price for the item. This can easily be figured out by what the item is and its condition. B.) Do I feel comfortable with this price.

I buy very little used however for my new build I did buy three used items.

I got 2 MP40s and a 24wx8bulb ATI fixture. Now I can look at these items and know the quality of the item because they are well known products. The ATI was listed at a very fair price plus I saw it when it first posted I was comfortable with the price it was listed at and knew the desire these fixtures have in the market place so I paid his asking price. Could I have gotten it for 25$ cheaper? Maybe. Do I care that I missed out on 25$ because I got a 600$ fixture + 6x Almost new bulbs for 45% of the cost of the items new? No I didn't.

Same goes with the two MP40s I got. We see them sell all the time so we know what they are worth and we know how well they hold their value.

where we get into trouble and where I stay away from used products is on brands that don't have the best rep like jaboe I am not going to buy a 6 month old jaboe off a guy for anything more then 20% or so of its value because its just not worth it.

we should never go into negotiation as a goal to screw each other we want to go into find a fair price for both to pay. just because the buy asks for 100$ and I say no 50$ doesn't mean that the true fair price is 75$. I sell to a lot of people locally equipment when I am done with it, fish, and coral. For some reason people are obsessed with the pay as little as possible for something idea. I sell amazing gold vile angel fish for 6$ each. Cheap as can be. I just like breeding them and I can recoup some money at 6$ each. I will have people ask me if they can buy them at 3$...you are getting a $18+ angel that is locally raised and you want to get it for 3$ instead of the 6$ I am asking. I decline any off like that because I know my price is fair and they are just trying to take advantage of thinking I need to unload them and ill just take anything I can get. That isn't true at all I can easily take them to the many fish stores and unload them any time I want.

I tend to agree. If the price is fair I am happy, I don't particularly care about the last few percentage points.

[CStrickland]

Those places aren't pure socialist and it's not the individual country I have a problem with. Socialist economics was born from communism and other forms of authoritative models. If a form of capitalist republic government like the USA was so evil and profitable, more dictators would be doing it, they aren't. There is a reason that socialism is the economic model of choice for evil power hungry dictators.

Again, I have zero desire to dabble in an economic model that literally millions of people like many members of my family and many other families, have died fighting. Just my opinion.

But anyways, I'm derailing this thread. Sorry.

I think you are coming close to a 'no true scotsman' fallacy here. Varying degrees of collective ownership of the means of production have allowed a great many countries to increase standards of living, and general welfare. Of course if you dismiss the peaceful and thriving democratic socialist states as impure, you are left with more authoritarian and communist ones. But then in order to make a fair comparison, you would have to dismiss the 'impure'ly capitalist ones. Like the US since even before the New Deal. Is there a purely capitalist state even? Because by your logic if pure capitalism were so beneficial, many countries would be doing it.

I think rather, it is the power-hungry dictator part that is problematic like all centralized power. As they say, it corrupts absolutely. This is true whether in the form of communist bureaucracy, non-substantive democracy, nationalist demagoguery, or the disproportionate influence of the bourgeoisie in capitalist systems. For me, the key is self-determination - the better system is the one that affords individuals greater opportunity to pursue their chosen destiny. Socialist democracies with decentralized power structures do a very good job of that IMO, certainly better than communism or pure capitalism.

PS some of your arguments sound like you might be confusing socialism with not only communism but also state capitalism, where a (usually authoritarian) government directly controls capital and production as opposed to the workers as represented by the state.

[hkgar]

Democratic Rebuplic, although we function more like a straight republic more and more...

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

No it was originally called a Representative Republic. BIG BIG difference. Sadly we are becoming more and more a democracy. Rule of law (Republic) rule of man (Democracies)

[Bent]

I think you are coming close to a 'no true scotsman' fallacy here. Varying degrees of collective ownership of the means of production have allowed a great many countries to increase standards of living, and general welfare. Of course if you dismiss the peaceful and thriving democratic socialist states as impure, you are left with more authoritarian and communist ones. But then in order to make a fair comparison, you would have to dismiss the 'impure'ly capitalist ones. Like the US since even before the New Deal. Is there a purely capitalist state even? Because by your logic if pure capitalism were so beneficial, many countries would be doing it.

I think rather, it is the power-hungry dictator part that is problematic like all centralized power. As they say, it corrupts absolutely. This is true whether in the form of communist bureaucracy, non-substantive democracy, nationalist demagoguery, or the disproportionate influence of the bourgeoisie in capitalist systems. For me, the key is self-determination - the better system is the one that affords individuals greater opportunity to pursue their chosen destiny. Socialist democracies with decentralized power structures do a very good job of that IMO, certainly better than communism or pure capitalism.

PS some of your arguments sound like you might be confusing socialism with not only communism but also state capitalism, where a (usually authoritarian) government directly controls capital and production as opposed to the workers as represented by the state.

With respect, much respect, we agree to disagree my friend.. :beer:

:love2:

[pisanoal]

No it was originally called a Representative Republic. BIG BIG difference. Sadly we are becoming more and more a democracy. Rule of law (Republic) rule of man (Democracies)

John Adams among others called a representative democracy, not a representative republic. But I digress as its way off topic and depends on which definitions you use, as they are pretty close depending on the source.

[chefbill]

To the OP: you never in your life asked for a pay raise? I do X for you, you pay me Y. Your time has a value. Someone else needs something done. Haggling is all around in subtle forms. Salaries, crops, stocks, commodities

Sent from my LGL52VL using Tapatalk

[pisanoal]

To the OP: you never in your life asked for a pay raise? I do X for you, you pay me Y. Your time has a value. Someone else needs something done. Haggling is all around in subtle forms. Salaries, crops, stocks, commodities

Sent from my LGL52VL using Tapatalk

He isn't against haggling from what I've gathered. But is against and annoyed with people who ask for the lowest the seller would take right off the get go instead of making an actual offer.

[CStrickland]

:beer:With respect, much respect, we agree to disagree my friend.. :beer:

:love2:

:love2:
Since you were so nice about it, I'll put in a good word for you with the politburo ;)
:beer:

I'm going to look at a used car now guys! Putting on my haggle-pants

[Bent]

:beer:

:love2:
Since you were so nice about it, I'll put in a good word for you with the politburo ;)
:beer:

I'm going to look at a used car now guys! Putting on my haggle-pants

Ooooooooh

What kind of car?

[75mixedreef]

So what do you do when the price is not specified? I have seen before where people post items for sale and do not have every item priced out. Would you ask for a price on those or just give an offer? Same for if you meet to buy X and you see Y that you would also like to buy. Do you shoot them an offer, or do you ask what they would like to get for it?

Personally I like haggling because many times I'm honestly not sure what it is worth. If I am selling, then I put a price I know is too high but not by too much and expect to negotiate to determine market value. If I'm buying I usually start low and work up. If an item has a fixed price then there is no need for negotiation, everyone should know what it is worth, haggling is just the mechanism we use for items foe which the prices are not as concise.

[DivingTheWorld]

So what do you do when the price is not specified? I have seen before where people post items for sale and do not have every item priced out. Would you ask for a price on those or just give an offer? Same for if you meet to buy X and you see Y that you would also like to buy. Do you shoot them an offer, or do you ask what they would like to get for it?

Personally I like haggling because many times I'm honestly not sure what it is worth. If I am selling, then I put a price I know is too high but not by too much and expect to negotiate to determine market value. If I'm buying I usually start low and work up. If an item has a fixed price then there is no need for negotiation, everyone should know what it is worth, haggling is just the mechanism we use for items foe which the prices are not as concise.

This reminds me of the listings that say, "Make offer, NO LOW BALLS!!" So you have no idea what they're looking for and there is a good chance you'll offend them with the first offer you make! :hammer:

[CStrickland]

Ooooooooh

What kind of car?

This kind! :D
It's a 4 year old Subaru with 50k. I like subarus a lot and this is one my husband can pretend he's rally racing in.

I haggled 12% off the ask, upgrade to certified used car warranty, and 2% off the interest rate. :celeb1:

[jrp1588]

This kind! :D
It's a 4 year old Subaru with 50k. I like subarus a lot and this is one my husband can pretend he's rally racing in.

I haggled 12% off the ask, upgrade to certified used car warranty, and 2% off the interest rate. :celeb1:

I drive an 04 STI. It would be fun to rally if i had more than 2.5" of ground clearance on the front. haha