Fuge plumbing

[stephen.davis.]

So im finishing my plumbing for my 75g and sump. Think i have a good idea but thought i would see if anyone can talk me out of it.

This is a salt water setup. The fuge part of the sump is feed from the return pump. First thought about simple dump then came up with this...

So what you see in the picture is a rough unglued set up. Each horizontal part would have holes drilled in them. The left one the holes will be drilled facing the right side of the fuge area, the right one the holes would be drilled facing up. Hope this would cause a counter clockwise movement to keep cheato rolling/ tumbling.

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah49/cudalover1982/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161026_150151_zpszfbkqfd7.jpg (http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/cudalover1982/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161026_150151_zpszfbkqfd7.jpg.html)

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[mcgyvr]

Its a spray bar setup that used to be done quite often and sometimes still is.. no problem there really..

how are you getting water out?
did you make that tank?

[stephen.davis.]

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah49/cudalover1982/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161026_151244_zpsc5uu5ks1.jpg (http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/cudalover1982/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161026_151244_zpsc5uu5ks1.jpg.html)

This picture might show it better. It just flows over the baffle back to the return pump. It was a 30g i found on the curb on trashday lol. Took second tank i found on curb that leaked and cut it up for baffles.

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[mcgyvr]

ha ha.. The first pic looked like some goofy sized small square but tall tank..
second pic cleared that right up...

[stephen.davis.]

Yeah my stand has three doors so its a little akward for pictures

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[uncleof6]

What are you planning on having the rock in there do? You have a skimmer which equals export. You want to use Chaetomorpha for export as well. (There are far more effective macros around than Chaeto, but... ) Then you have rock, which does nothing but produce what you are trying to export. That is why bio-balls went out of vogue; rock = bio-balls. Pods? That small volume of water is not really going to produce an amount of pods that would be considered significant as a food source. The DT will produce more.

[stephen.davis.]

I understand you feel it wont produce alot of pods. But for me the extra pods it does produce is worth it to me.

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[NanoReefWanabe]

I understand you feel it wont produce alot of pods. But for me the extra pods it does produce is three is no need for rocksworth it to me.

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What he really trying to say is the rock will produce more nitrate problems in your tank than beneficial pods being produced... there is no need for rocks in your fuge...or sand for that matter just a giant ball of cheato rolling around... you would be further ahead using that space as a DSB and not having to do anything with it any more. ..

Trying to remove hunks of cheato and then shaking it ot in the display to release pods turned into eat too much of a chore, and a very wet messy one at that. .. that I no longer bother. .. any pods brace enough to swim over become 100 little pieces when they hit the display. ..

A fire should bee above your display so the **** can freely swim to the display with getting massacred in a pump.

[stephen.davis.]

My set up is what it is, i know what to expect.

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[slief]

+1 to the rocks being a waste and counterproductive in that fuge. I would eliminate the rocks and run with the chaeto. It will provide plenty of refuge for pods to populate without causing a detritus trap and nitrate factory that will result from the rocks in there.

[Ruckus16]

I have the exact same setup. As far as the rocks go, I have always been under the impression the rock itself acts as a sort of filter by increasing surface area for beneficial bacteria.
I shake my rock each water change, remove from fuge area and vacuum the detritus

[NanoReefWanabe]

My bad for the typos...dang phone autocorrect

[uncleof6]

I have the exact same setup. As far as the rocks go, I have always been under the impression the rock itself acts as a sort of filter by increasing surface area for beneficial bacteria.
I shake my rock each water change, remove from fuge area and vacuum the detritus

The thing is, every surface of the entire system is surface area for beneficial bacteria. That means the inside of pipes, the glass, literally everything that is in the system. The misconception here is that MORE surface area is needed, and it simply is not true. I have never seen a system that lacked in surface area for beneficial bacteria to populate. If anything, folks have trouble getting rid of the nitrate produced, rather than needing more surface to produce more of it.

The larger misconception is that the rock rubble contributes to denitrification because it has holes in it. That is very unlikely as there is no mechanism for the bulk movement of water through the rock, at precisely the correct rate, which would be required for denitrification to occur. Certainly the conditions probably exist though the rubble is pretty small. (till the "pores" become clogged with glycocalyx; bacterial secretions,) However there is still the problem of bulk water movement. Sand beds operate differently, as they are "fluid" rather than solid rock.

Looking at it logically, the DT produces, and the sump exports. Adding production to the sump, makes the system less efficient. (no we aren't going to the Holiday Inn Express.)

Incidentally, these aren't feelings. I do feel something over wanabe's spell checker however, I think he ought to fire the spell checker... ;)

[Ruckus16]

So basically if you aren't looking to grow pods, the refugium area would be better off used for an algae scrubber or reactor?

[Grayhead]

No, that area can be used for pods and nutrient export. It will be a biological export rather than a mechanical. As Uncle explained, the additional rock is a nutrient trap and not needed. Use the macro. It adds a nice element to your tank

[stephen.davis.]

The rock itself is a trap or just the space benith it. Sounds like you guys are blowing out of proportion detritus.

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[mcgyvr]

Their whole point is to avoid situations that trap the detritus.
Its better to keep it floating so it can be skimmed out/used as food,etc...

It it going to be a serious problem... Probably not at all ..
Would it be better without it.. Probably..
They are just offering suggestions.. You are free to do what you want..

[uncleof6]

The rock itself is a trap or just the space benith it. Sounds like you guys are blowing out of proportion detritus.

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Acutally, we are not talking about detritus. Detritus is a contituent of a higher level in the food chain. Complex carbohydrates, for instance, covered with micro-organisms (bacteria) is a very nutritious food source for detrivores and filter feeders. The micro organisms feed the critter, and the complex carbohydrates are returned to the water to be colonized again—and eaten again. (trying to keep it simple.) If we were to follow a single detritus particle through this recycling process, it would eventually just disappear.

We are talking about the byproducts of protein (amino acids; containing nitrogen) decomposition. E.G. ammonia/ammonium, nitrite, nitrate -> nitrogen gas + carbon dioxide + water. (last part requires anoxic/near anoxic conditions) I don't care much for the term "nutrient trap," and find "nitrate factory" more descriptive (synonymous with trickle filters.)

Photosynthesis is the other path for nitrate to be "removed" from the water. Macro assimilates the nitrate (resistance is futile) and utilizes the nitrogen to form amino acids. Wonderful. However, putting rock in there with the macro, increases the production of nitrate (more surface area = more bacteria, etc.) Hence the moniker "nitrate factory." The macro assimilates produced nitrate, but the process is inefficient (slowed down) because there is MORE nitrate in the system to remove, and the macro is only going to utilize what it needs, not the total available.

Someone mentioned DSBs above. If looking for a single method to deal with it all (including detritus) the "living" or "live" DSB is the solution. Because it does deal with it all, it is perhaps the least understood method. An RDSB can be implemented in a sump, with caveats.

[stephen.davis.]

Acutally

Acutally the only thing i asked an opinion on was my spray bar set up lol.

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[uncleof6]

Acutally the only thing i asked an opinion on was my spray bar set up lol.

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I know that... how the water gets into that section is almost not important. I see your concept as a bit more complexity than needed.

The other stuff should be the larger concern.

[slief]

Acutally the only thing i asked an opinion on was my spray bar set up lol.

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Then look at it this way.. You're somewhat new to the hobby and you have people with many many years of experience in this hobby trying to help you by giving you sound advice. In fact, between Mcgyver, Uncleof6 and myself, you have upwards of 70 years combined experience in marine aquariums if not more. Take it for what it's worth. It free advice and most importantly good advice. Sometimes less is more in this hobby and the cleaner the system is now, the less issues you will have down the road.

As mentioned above, the spray bar is not needed and infact, it may even be counter productive. If it were me and that was the space I had to deal with, I would remove the rock and set the feed line to the refugium section so that the flow creates a gyre in there and suspends and ultimately rotates the chaeto. That will allow the chaeto to grow faster by getting light to all sides. Pods will thrive inside the chaeto and that section will remain much cleaner and easier to maintain.

[stephen.davis.]

The double spray bar does exactly that create aflow to tumble the cheato. The biggest problem with this forum is forced advice. It maybe good and sound but its forced. You cant be bothered to comment on build build threads and make people welcome but you sure love to force advice.

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[slief]

The double spray bar does exactly that create aflow to tumble the cheato. The biggest problem with this forum is forced advice. It maybe good and sound but its forced. You cant be bothered to comment on build build threads and make people welcome but you sure love to force advice.

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Forced advice.. ok. I didn't see any forced advice. Just people trying to help you. The holes on the right sending the flow into the rocks won't help much if any with the tumbling since the rocks will obstruct the flow. Not to mention that there likely won't be much pressure in terms of flow from the holes with the split return pump feeding that large of a manifold unless you have very few holes or very small ones that will be prone to clogging.

[stephen.davis.]

My set up is what it is, i know what to expect.

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Anything after this comment was forced advice about the rocks.

As stated it was rough setup making sure the spray baris above the rocks is a valid point.

Points about the spray bar set up are appreciated. Not sure why i would need alot of flow to keep the cheato rolling. The holes are roughly 1/4 inch.

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[ericarenee]

Anything after this comment was forced advice about the rocks.

As stated it was rough setup making sure the spray baris above the rocks is a valid point.

Points about the spray bar set up are appreciated. Not sure why i would need alot of flow to keep the cheato rolling. The holes are roughly 1/4 inch.

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my take on the spray bar from personal experience that was a HUGE MISTAKE.
First you need be sure you have twice the number of area with the drilled holes then the actually pipe size. If you have that and none of the holes ever get blocked you will still have no water pressure or water current. making water to calm and causing too much settling .. second restricting the drain from the display in anyway can cause a number of issues. from noise to drain water volume . I also agree From my trial and error like the others have said.. if you just drop the pipe into the corner of that fuge area it will move the water in there more then enough to tumble a small chato ball..

My Opinion is your over thinking .If you wish pm me and i can give you a link to my setup. I am not sure i am allowed to post google plus links here ..

as far as forced advice Welcome to Reef Central where everyone is passionate about Reefing and go above and beyond to make your Reef tank as fun and as rewarding to you as with the rest of us. None of the advice or opinions are giving in any way forcing you to change your mind but only to advise you on what others are doing tried to do and failed at..

Good Luck

[NanoReefWanabe]

my take on the spray bar from personal experience that was a HUGE MISTAKE.
First you need be sure you have twice the number of area with the drilled holes then the actually pipe size. If you have that and none of the holes ever get blocked you will still have no water pressure or water current. making water to calm and causing too much settling .. second restricting the drain from the display in anyway can cause a number of issues. from noise to drain water volume . I also agree From my trial and error like the others have said.. if you just drop the pipe into the corner of that fuge area it will move the water in there more then enough to tumble a small chato ball..

My Opinion is your over thinking .If you wish pm me and i can give you a link to my setup. I am not sure i am allowed to post google plus links here ..

as far as forced advice Welcome to Reef Central where everyone is passionate about Reefing and go above and beyond to make your Reef tank as fun and as rewarding to you as with the rest of us. None of the advice or opinions are giving in any way forcing you to change your mind but only to advise you on what others are doing tried to do and failed at..

Good Luck
Well said. .. as you mentioned. . Most have done this. .. myself included. .. and know full well the Problems that arise from it. ... don't want to listen. .. by all means do what you want it is your tank. .. but the advice you are receiving that you perceive as forced is what it is. ... tried and tested and for the most part if it won't work people will be honest here and let you know. ..it is what it is. .. just know what you are trying to do can be done many other ways better and it is not going to work as well as you think... people trying to help. .. if you don't like the advice then I guess the best way to avoid it is to not post questions...I wish you the best of much with your set up.... if your goal id's to grow pods it can be easier done outside if your system in a stand alone system. .. which allows you to easily feed them rots and phyto.. ale them to thrive and make them easy to harvest. .. kinda line a brine shrimp hatchery setup. .. if your goal is export and nitrate removal then sand would work way better. .. if you wish to pile your tank with more nitrate then your algae can export only do your pods can have a pieced space to grow then do that. .. every system is different and will respond different. . As for the spray bar. .. if you are using a high pressure rated pump then you might get some sort of directional flow out of the spray bar. ..otherwise your run if the mil submerged aquarium pumps won't do anything. .

[Capt_Dan]

This is an awesome setup. I doing something like it myself. How is yours doing?