Bean animal microbubble problem

[Sohal Tang Tim]

Hello Everyone, Usually the bean animal works fine but when I turn the return pump on...it usually causes MAJOR LARGE air coming out of the return line
from overflow to SUMP..so causes BOIL OF BUBBLES In the skimmer compartment that the return line from overflow goes.. After about 3 or 4 minutes that boil usually stops and all is good. Now..the BOIL IS NOT stopping and I cannot get the microbubbles that it produces in the display tank therefore to stop. Why am I getting so much air coming out of the return line going into the sump from the Bean Animal Overflow? Any ideas?
Thanks
Tim
:uhoh3:

[Grayhead]

Is the air on the main siphon, or the line coming to the display?

[Sohal Tang Tim]

There are 3 pipes inside the overflow.
Two of the pipes have elbows and one of those elbowed pipes is a durso with a hole drilled in the top....

The lowest elbow has a gate valve the others do not.

Right now the water is going down the highest pipe which I believe is the
emergency pipe with no elbow.

The water draining to the sump from the durso is BOILING and wont stop..


When I open the gate valve wide open it makes NO difference in the water level in the overflow..This gate valve again is on the lowest elbowed pipe in the overflow box. When I close the gate valve on that same pipe it
makes NO difference on the height in the overflow.

The lowest overflow pipe goes to a TEE that splits the line and one line goes to refugium with a ball valve and the other tee goes to another sump compartment...It is suspected that there may be an airlock in that line...
but I have no idea..

:worried:

[Sohal Tang Tim]

The boiling is occurring at the end of the line coming from the durso to the sump.... That is causing air bubbles to be chopped up by return pump
and sending microbubbles MAJOR into the display.

[Sohal Tang Tim]

I am getting an airlock in the lowest drain pipe in the overflow...would drilling the hole bigger in the durso pipe's cap relieve some of the air that builds up during the start up?

[Rybren]

Part of the problem is that you have T'd off your siphon drain line. This will cause problems and could prevent the line from purging the air. In a BA drain, the siphon and Open channel lines have to terminate in the same portion of the sump to work properly. Furthermore, the ends should terminate no deeper than 1" below the normal operating level of the sump. Both of these issues could contribute to your problem.

Do you have a hose in the hole on the open channel? You should, and it should terminate just above the emergency drain.

Try this: Completely open the valve on the siphon line. Once the overflow box has drained, slowly start to close the valve and watch the water level rise in the box. Once the water is even-ish with the mid-point of the siphon elbow, stop closing the valve and let things settle down. You should only have a trickle of water going through the open channel. If you have a lot of bubbles in the open channel, then slightly open the valve.
You'll have to play around with the valve position a bit to get it set properly.

If after all that, your siphon still won't purge the air, then look at getting rid of that T. It is also possible that the flow from your return pump isn't powerful enough to purge the air from thr siphon. For example, if you have a 2" drain and a 350 gph pump, it likely won't work.

HTH

[Grayhead]

Is the gate valve just spinning.? If you have the siphon wide open, and the water level doesn't go down in the overflow box, then you have an obstruction, or the gate valve is bad.
I have a tee in my siphon, and it works fine. do you have a level section in the siphon drain?

[Lsufan]

How far is your syphon drain terminate below the water level in the sump. It sounds like your syphon isn't getting going & one of the most common reasons is because the syphon outlet should only be 1/2" to maximum of 1" below the water level in the sump. If your valve on the syphon isn't doing anything then your syphon may be having trouble purging the air which happens if it's submerged to far. Your open channel (the one with the airline) shouldn't have much water going through it after startup. Anything more then a trickle will start to be loud & make bubbles. That's something u have to tune in once u get it going.

If u can post some pics of your setup it will help and someone will be able to tell u your problem most likely. Like I said, I would first check & see how far your syphon is submerged & see if that takes care of it. If it doesn't it something u can cross off the list but I suspect it may be your problem

[Sohal Tang Tim]

Thanks gents some very good information much appreciated.
We figured a way around the problem without having to remove the tee...

Basically there is an airlock being produced in the right side of the tee
so...I just have to , upon fire up of return pump, close the left side of tee
for 10 seconds...it blows the air out of the right side then open the left
side again and voila...the water level in overflow then drops to proper
level and the boiling stops in the sump....all good...

Not ideal...but it works and all air bubbles are gone...main thing...
When I move to our new house in year or two I will have it replumbed and likely remove the tee at that time..... The tee was done so could reduce flow in the refugium...where the right half of tee line ends up.
Thanks everyone, Tim.

[Sohal Tang Tim]

Hello guys..there is a NEW problem... now...the huge amount of micro bubbles
are coming on the other return line to the sump... The water level in the
overlow is it supposed to be at the bottom of the lowest pipe? I think what happens is the water is going a bit lower then that and air is getting into the line that returns to the sump...causing gurgling and way tooo many bubbles being returned to the sump..it is not a tight siphon for example...
Would drilling the hole in the highest pipe in the overflow help get rid of that air?

I am tempted to have the whole thing re-done but...dont want to if not necessary... The sump was purchased WITH THE TEE piping in place so that flow could be slowed to the refugium part of the sump...seemed like a good idea..now I am seeing that it is detrimental to the bean overflow method...The overflwo was built exactly like shown on the video I drew from but the piping*after* the overflow is not the same obvously....
Tim

[hogfanreefer]

Which return line? The siphon (lowest), the open drain (the lone with the hole in the top)? There should be just an occasional bubble out of the open pipe. If there are lots you may need to open the gate valve on the siphon until there are just a few bubbles occasionally.

[Sohal Tang Tim]

Thanks Hog! I am wondering why all the years I did NOT have a bean animal why I bothered this time.... I have absolutely NEVER had this problem in 27 years of reefing!
I am notttttt a fan of bean animal....even though it is not the bean animal that is the problem...its BECAUSE of the fact we have bean animal that this is happening as the plumbing is not co-herent with the bean....apparently..>I wish I would have went with a PLAIN JANE OVERFLOW! ARRRGHHHHHHHHHHHH frustrating...sorry...

[Grayhead]

Can you post a few pictures? Might be helpful. My setup has the main siphon drain split. It took me a while to tune it properly. My issues were with the water level in my sump. Now it restarts everytime. Once set, you should not have to adjust anything. My new system is the first time using a bean setup. I did not realize I had to split my siphon till I received my sump. But it can work.

[Sohal Tang Tim]

I wonder if the hole drilled in the top siphon in the overflow is big enough?
I wonder if drilling that hole bigger would help drain more air from system?
Pls advise ,
Thanks, Tim

[mcgyvr]

Tim,
Please post pictures of your setup.. That would help greatly..
Also
Please use the following terms to describe each pipe..
"Siphon Drain"
"Open Drain"
"Emergency Drain"

"Return" makes one think its the lines from the pump to the display tank..

IMO..The words you are putting down are confusing and hard to follow what the real problem is.. and a lack of pictures isn't helping either..

The BA is hands down the best system.. Its when you don't follow the rules and attempt something its not designed for is when the problem comes in..
It WILL be better than any "plain jane" overflow.. once you get it setup properly..

[Rybren]

The hole size in the open channel shouldn't make any difference. What is the size of your drain lines and what return pump are you using? Have you cleaned the return pump? If you haven't, then there is a chance that your flow has been reduced to the point that the flow doesn't match the size of the plumbing and the system can't purge the air.


Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

[Sohal Tang Tim]

McGVR...thanks sooooo much for your super input and help...much appreciated.
I am not the one who plumbed it..I am all thumbs and I do nottttt get involved in the plumbing....All I do is take care of the inhabitants...I have people that do the rest for me...
The Siphon Drain (assuming its the lowest opening in overflow) is the one that is teed off.

RYBREN , , , I think there is a chance you hit the nail on the head as thatttt is what
I believe has happened also....the flow coming out of the returns to the display seems
to have weakend also so I think the EHEIM return pump is partially plugged...will be
looking at that today....I think your bang on!!!!! Figures..your from CANADA!! looololhoaohoahoahaoahoha KIDDING NO OFFENCE AMERICANS !!! WE LOVE YOU UP HERE!!! lololol just had to take the shot!!!! hahahaahah.

Tim

[Sohal Tang Tim]

I wonder if we drilled a hole on top of Siphon Line Elbow if that would help??
IDEAS??? Thx
Tim

[Grayhead]

Drilling a hole would defeat the purpose of a siphon drain. It would become a loud open drain till the water covered the drilled hole. Please take a few pictures and post them before you start drilling. Especially show where the siphon line tees into 2 areas of your sump

[Sohal Tang Tim]

ok drilling is out....will get back to you today after my friend arrives and looks at it....I mayyyy replace the whole sump and the plumbing we'll see...Thx Gray,
Tim

[mcgyvr]

IDEAS??? Thx
Tim

Post pictures please... We will still be here when you come back. :thumbsup:

And just to add more info..
Siphon drain = does not have vent hole/tube + has downturned elbow + has valve to adjust water height in overflow box (only a valve is needed here.. No others have/need a valve)
Open drain = has vent hole/tube + has downturned elbow
Emergency drain = no hole + has upturned elbow

Adding a vent to the siphon defeats the purpose entirely.. Do not do that..That is not the solution to the problem at all..

Please "refresh" here.. Take the time to read it all please..
http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx

[Sohal Tang Tim]

thanks mcgyvr....will not drill...Yes our siphon draing, open drain, emergency drain all fit your descriptions and were built to spec of the video online...yes have ball valve under the siphon drain...which tees into two compartments in sump.... Will shoot pics later today if we do not resolve...thanks again...huge help!! Tim

[mcgyvr]

And now it is "normal" to have some air/bubbles on startup.. But that should stop fairly quickly.. (a few minutes max)..

And temporary "bubbles" in the display is not an issue really..

But on a properly designed setup the bubbles shouldn't make it to the return pump at all really.. Thats what bubbles traps/baffles are there for..

[Sohal Tang Tim]

what is the red tubing coming off the highest standpipe? Is it required? WE have only a hole drilled with zero red tubing for example. Thanks, Tim

[Sohal Tang Tim]

I do not have a microbubble to the display tank problem...I have a BOILING effect
right now in the left tee line going into the sump and a half hour ago it was BOILING
in the line into the sump from the emergency the open drainline....then after 1/2 hour of boiling there it suddenly stopped and then started boiling in the right tee line which it is still doing and has been doing for a bloody hour...my buddy knows how to stop this boiling but I am fed up with the problem...I do not think this plumbing is adequate for the bean...its a good possibility rip all apart and start over...not sure..tba...will send pics ...Thx, Tim

[mcgyvr]

what is the red tubing coming off the highest standpipe? Is it required? WE have only a hole drilled with zero red tubing for example. Thanks, Tim

What the tube does (when set properly so the free end is slightly below the emergency elbow opening in the overflow box) is that as the water level in the overflow box starts to "rise" for whatever reason the water rises over the end of the tube and causes that open drain to go to a "full siphon" drain (because no air can be sucked in) and thus attempting to stop the rising water problem before the emergency channel is even used..

When not used properly there is the possibility that (say for example.. the full siphon is completely blocked) that the open channel and open emergency drain can't handle the total flow of water through the system (because neither are at a full siphon)..

So essentially the normal full siphon is blocked and out of the equation but the open channel is now the full siphon and the emergency becomes the open channel drain..

Now if the water level rise was just temporary then once the water level in the overflow box lowers the end of the tube is uncovered and air is allowed to enter thus turning it back into the open channel again..

[mcgyvr]

I do not have a microbubble to the display tank problem...I have a BOILING effect
right now in the left tee line going into the sump and a half hour ago it was BOILING
in the line into the sump from the emergency the open drainline....then after 1/2 hour of boiling there it suddenly stopped and then started boiling in the right tee line which it is still doing and has been doing for a bloody hour...my buddy knows how to stop this boiling but I am fed up with the problem...I do not think this plumbing is adequate for the bean...its a good possibility rip all apart and start over...not sure..tba...will send pics ...Thx, Tim

ok so "boiling" just being air trapped in the pipes (which is expected with a T on the siphon drain)..
I'm not positive yet (waiting on pictures/clearer picture) BUT... I might suggest removing the "T" from the drain and making a "T" off your return plumbing to put more water into whatever you are doing there..
Thats a fairly simple fix that doesn't involve starting over and should fix the issue completely..

Or maybe just put the open channel into where the T went..
Or maybe something else..

But a simple change should be all thats needed..

[Sohal Tang Tim]

here are some pics...the black pipe on left is boiling right now....
if I close the gate on it that will force bubbles into right side fuge...
but the problem comes right back when close the valve again...

this is a NEWWWW problem... the other day it was the left side going directly into the skimmer that was boiling and that's the line that boils on start up...and it boils for 3-5 minutes before it stops IFFFFF it stops..sometimes it wont till I bleed the left tee...but today the left tee is whats acting up.

complicated problem... on top of that someone suggested it may be the
return PUMP that is causing problem if it is slightly blocked lowering the flow then the system cannot purge the air...that's interesting...could be right will check the pump when buddy arrives tonite. Thanks so much for your interest and help. Tim.:uhoh3:

[Sohal Tang Tim]

mY BUDDY said to let you know that we have an ELBOW on the second drain line also..is that a problem???

[Sohal Tang Tim]

T on siphon line.... elbow on second drain line.

[Rybren]

what is the red tubing coming off the highest standpipe? Is it required? WE have only a hole drilled with zero red tubing for example. Thanks, Tim

The tube should be bent and terminate a tad higher than the top of the emergency drain. In the event that the siphon becomes totally blocked, the open channel and emergency take the flow. If these two pipes can't take the flow, the water level will rise in the overflow box and cover the end of the hose, turning the open channel into a full siphon.

[Rybren]

The pipes on the siphon look to be too deep. At most, they should only be 1" below the water level. Mine are at 1/2"

[Rybren]

mY BUDDY said to let you know that we have an ELBOW on the second drain line also..is that a problem???

Where is the elbow? If it is in the overflow box, then no problem. If it is in the sump, then it could be contributing to the problem.

[Sohal Tang Tim]

The right side of the tee goes down into a spray bar at bottttttom of the fuge....
IS thatttt a problem? That's certaininly 1 foot below waterline! ???
Tim

[Rybren]

I'm not sure, as you aren't supposed to have a T in a Bean system. However, I suspect that it would affect the ability of the siphon to purge.

As someone else already mentioned, your best bet is to remove or block off one side of the T and feed the fuge either by a separate pump or by T'ing off the return line.

You could probably get away with a very small pump, maybe even a maxijet 1200.

[mcgyvr]

The right side of the tee goes down into a spray bar at bottttttom of the fuge....
IS thatttt a problem? That's certaininly 1 foot below waterline! ???
Tim

Thats a big part of your problem..
The outlets of the full/open drains should be above to just below the normal surface of the water in the sump.. Anymore than an 1" and you start to have "issues" that you don't need to have.. (1/2" is perfect)
The only reason to put them underwater at all is to prevent the sound of the water "falling" into the water..
But doing so changes the "atmospheric" pressure at the outlet.. The deeper into the water, the greater the pressure = the harder it is for the siphon to do work..
If you want to really "geek out" and learn somethings....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon#Explanation_using_Bernoulli.27s_equation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle

[Sohal Tang Tim]

QUESTION: The standpipes in the overflow..do they all have to be glued in?
We did not glue them so that if we had to clean or change them we could....
I am suspecting air is getting in right at the spot that would have glue on it if glued in.
???? Scared to glue it in case we have to get rid of the bean! lolol Pls advise
thanks, Tim

[Grayhead]

No they do not. Friction fit is fine

[Sohal Tang Tim]

thanks Gray!

[Sohal Tang Tim]

I think problem solved...we turned the fuge right side tee OFF....tight...
and we put the return from the Carbon reactor into the fuge which gave it the perfect
slow flow through the fuge....bubble problem gone! System fires up and boils for very short time in sump and then settles down all perfect. I bought about a baseball size of
cheato 2 weeks ago..today I pulled out WATERMELON size! The light I bought for my fuge grows cheato so fast you would not believe it! Take thattttttt Phosphate! :-) Me happy now. :-) lolol Thanks everyone for your super input and help!

[Sohal Tang Tim]

QUESTION: is the water from the bean animal overflow supposed to go to the
sump via both drain and siphon standpipes in normal operation or should the water be
only going to the sump by the siphon lowest line? Thanks, Tim

[Grayhead]

You want a slight trickle in the second line. Emergency should be dry.

[Sohal Tang Tim]

right now most of the water is coming through on the second line...very little through
the siphon...is that ok?

[Rybren]

If most of the water is coming through the open channel, then the system isn't properly adjusted. It will still work as a drain, but you won't have the reliability and safety of the Bean.

Try this: Completely open the valve on the siphon line. Once the overflow box has drained, slowly start to close the valve and watch the water level rise in the box. Once the water is even-ish with the mid-point of the siphon elbow, stop closing the valve and let things settle down. You should only have a trickle of water going through the open channel. If you have a lot of bubbles in the open channel, then slightly open the valve.
You'll have to play around with the valve position a bit to get it set properly.

[mcgyvr]

Tim,
Sorry I didn't respond to your PM's last night.. I just saw them this morning.

Make sure you address the depth of the outlets of those drains in the water level as we have been talking about..
They should exit just below the water level.. Too deep and it won't start right and make noise,etc...

Seems like you got it mostly sorted out though..

[Grayhead]

Another option is to look for bean animal designs on you tube. Plenty of info there and you will actually see one operate live.
If you have more water going to the open pipe than the siphon, then you have an issue somewhere.
You mentioned earlier one of the lines was tied to a spray bar. If that is the main siphon, then that is probably your issue. I can't see how it would start properly or function like that

[Sohal Tang Tim]

thanks guys....we removed the spray bar and shut that line off completely...
the ISSUE is gone but the system is not working the way it should be so we will
try closing that ball valve and doing what Rybren says above...my buddy wont be back till next weekend so we will wait till then..I do not screw around with this stuff as I do not
know what I am doing.....that's why I pay my buddy to do it. He is good..he will
fix it...but he was totally unfamiliar with the bean..>We copied the video design in the overflow itself..its after the overflow that things were plumbed according to the piping already installed in the sump....he did best he could...and all is working perfectly fine right now but I want the BEAN working like a BEAN or defeat purpose...thanks Gents. Tim