New hobbyist. Please advise. [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community

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CFR777

11/19/2016, 02:56 AM

schatzi

11/19/2016, 02:30 PM

Hi, my thoughts on your questions....

Hi guys!

I'm setting up my nano reef and I thought I could get some help from you guys.
Just got a 40 gallon bow front tank. I know it's for freshwater, but I thought I could modify it to suit my needs. Ideally, I'd like to have some soft and hard corals, 3-4 small fish and the necessary clean up crew.

I'm about to order the following stuff:

dry rock and some live rock
Carib Sea Special Grade sand
API Saltwater & Reef test kits (pH, kH, Nitrite, Nitrate, Ammonia, Calcium and Phosphate)
2 Hydor Nano 1600
1 external canister filter
sea salt
Seachem Purigen
Fluval Carbon

Please bear in mind I want to keep it as simple as possible. I know that the rock and the sand is the biological filter of the aquarium. So I thought that an external canister with poly-filter, Seachem Purigen and Fluval Carbon could provide the mechanical and chemical filtration.

I have a lot of questions, but here are the most important.

1) Do I have to clean, cook or bathe the dry rock in muriatic acid before I place it in my tank?

If you buy the rock from a vendor it should be good to go. You don't need much live rock to start with, it's expensive and could bring in something you don't want, like bubble algae. The dry rock will become live.

2) I'm planning to get rid of the canopy but I don't know what kind of lights I should buy. A friend of mine gave me 3 sets of Arcadia T5 leads sometime ago and I was thinking I could fit 3-4 Arcadia LED T5 tubes. I suppose I'll also need a controller.
Or I could buy a decent LED light and forget the diy work. I don't want to break the bank though. What's my options?

An open top if you don't replace the canopy with a cover of some kind is an opportunity for a fish to jump out, so keep that in mind. if you're in it for the long haul get LEDS, less expensive to run and maintain but usually more expensive up front. Also depends on what type of corals you want. I have a couple SPS under LEDS and it's great. I bought a diy kit from rapid led.

3) Do I have to buy a RO/DI filter? I mean, the tank is only 40 gallons. Wouldn't it be less of a hassle if I just get the RO water from the lfs?

If you have the room for an RO/DI unit, and again, in this for the long haul, having your own system is the way to go. Far cheaper and more convenient in the long run. Just need space for it somewhere and a canister of some kind to hold the water you make.

4) Is there anything else I should buy?

Better test kits if you want to keep hard corals. Red Sea is my preferred.
Canister filters are less preferred than a sump. Even a 10 or 20 gallon below the Display will help, you can grow some chaeto and help with nutrient export.

Thank you for bearing with me.

CFR777

11/19/2016, 03:18 PM

Thank you for replying schatzi!

After a long search I found this LED light (https://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/aquarium/lighting/zetlight-led/zetlight-lancia-zp4000-marine/) with this controller (https://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/aquarium/lighting/zetlight-led/zetlight-lancia-controller-l200-package-c/) and this receiver (https://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/aquarium/lighting/zetlight-led/zetlight-lancia-i200-r-receiver-package-b/).

Zetlight Lancia : ZP4000
arrow4.gif Length: 742mm
arrow4.gif Power: 28w
arrow4.gif Replaces T5 lamps: 35w
arrow4.gif Replaces T8 lamps: 25w
Aquarium dimensions (when using supplied brackets)
arrow4.gif Minimum Aquarium Length: 75cm
arrow4.gif Maximum Aquarium Length: 95cm
arrow4.gif Lumens: 2100LM
arrow4.gif White Colour temperature: 12000K (48 LED's)
arrow4.gif Blue wavelength: 455-465nm (28 LED's)
arrow4.gif Royal Blue wavelength: 450-455nm (8 LED's)

Do you think it's going to be ok?

My other option is to go DIY with this kit (http://reefled.co.uk/remote-control-diy-led-kits/90w-sunrise-sunset-remote-led-diy-kit).

Any thoughts?
Cheers!

texdoc77

11/19/2016, 10:06 PM

Hi guys!

I'm setting up my nano reef and I thought I could get some help from you guys.
Just got a 40 gallon bow front tank. I know it's for freshwater, but I thought I could modify it to suit my needs. Ideally, I'd like to have some soft and hard corals, 3-4 small fish and the necessary clean up crew.

I'm about to order the following stuff:

dry rock and some live rock
Carib Sea Special Grade sand
API Saltwater & Reef test kits (pH, kH, Nitrite, Nitrate, Ammonia, Calcium and Phosphate)
2 Hydor Nano 1600
1 external canister filter
sea salt
Seachem Purigen
Fluval Carbon

Please bear in mind I want to keep it as simple as possible. I know that the rock and the sand is the biological filter of the aquarium. So I thought that an external canister with poly-filter, Seachem Purigen and Fluval Carbon could provide the mechanical and chemical filtration.

I have a lot of questions, but here are the most important.

1) Do I have to clean, cook or bathe the dry rock in muriatic acid before I place it in my tank?

2) I'm planning to get rid of the canopy but I don't know what kind of lights I should buy. A friend of mine gave me 3 sets of Arcadia T5 leads sometime ago and I was thinking I could fit 3-4 Arcadia LED T5 tubes. I suppose I'll also need a controller.
Or I could buy a decent LED light and forget the diy work. I don't want to break the bank though. What's my options?

3) Do I have to buy a RO/DI filter? I mean, the tank is only 40 gallons. Wouldn't it be less of a hassle if I just get the RO water from the lfs?

4) Is there anything else I should buy?

Thank you for bearing with me.

Couple of things:

1. Do you want it simple or easy? Easy isn't simple and simple isn't easy. What I mean is when I think of simple I think of fewer parts and less complexity to the system, however, that means you will be cleaning the tank and changing the water more often and things like that. You don't get it both ways. The more complex a set up, usually, the easier it is in the long run and vice versa. Honestly if you're looking for simple, you'll get frustrated fast in this hobby.

2. Your questions are good ones, but very simple and have been answered ad nauseam here. This is a good forum and TONS of great people, but they do expect you to do your research which means reading the beginner guides and doing a quick search of any question you might have. For example your rock question; there are many many threads with how to handle all the types of rock you might use and how to cure it.

Hope this helps

SC

Jon0807

11/19/2016, 10:53 PM

Personally, I would not go with the canister filter. They are a pain to clean, and you'll have to do it fairly regularly. A HOB like the Aqua Clear 70 along with a skimmer attachment might be a better option.

As for lighting, I've had this http://a.co/dEP5Vn8 for a few months now and it works great for my 36g bow front.

I used to lug 5 gallon buckets of RO water from the grocery store back home and it became old pretty fast. It's so much more convenient to have your own system and IMO it's worth the price.

CStrickland

11/20/2016, 12:56 AM

I think you're generally on the right track. Just a few suggestions.
- API makes two sets of kits, you should buy the other one. I think it's called reef master? Their phos test is garbage, it can't read low enough to tell you anything useful, but it's still a cost-saver to buy for the alk, ca, and nitrate. During the cycle you'll want to know ammonia, the seachem badges are great for ammo http://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php and theyre like $5. You can pick up a nitrite test, or a pack of strips that tell you ammonia and alk etc for that, as you won't need it after the first month.

CStrickland

11/20/2016, 01:09 AM

Sea salt, just to be clear, you need to buy tank salt, not like table salt.

If you are going to buy the rodi from the lfs, get yourself a tds meter like this http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/tds-3-handheld-tds-meter-hm-digital.html so you can be sure they are selling you pure water. They usually don't. I have a spectrapure 90 gpd refurbished rodi that I like very much.

I think a good hang on protein skimmer would be a much better choice than the purigen, carbon, etc. option but I don't know which models are recommended

OldReefGuy

11/20/2016, 01:27 AM

just curious why you would think a bow front is for freshwater?

Grimreaperz

11/20/2016, 02:16 AM

Drill it for you overflows and returns etc.....I got a 36g BF and in the excitement just set it up wishing I drilled it first! Find out if the glass is tempered or not and if not drill it!

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

CFR777

11/20/2016, 04:34 AM

Couple of things:

1. Do you want it simple or easy? Easy isn't simple and simple isn't easy. What I mean is when I think of simple I think of fewer parts and less complexity to the system, however, that means you will be cleaning the tank and changing the water more often and things like that. You don't get it both ways. The more complex a set up, usually, the easier it is in the long run and vice versa. Honestly if you're looking for simple, you'll get frustrated fast in this hobby.

Hi texdoc77. I'd like to keep it simple. At least for now. I'm aware that this means more work to be done, but I don't mind. I used to have a planted tropical and it was part of the joy for me to change water and clean it.

2. Your questions are good ones, but very simple and have been answered ad nauseam here. This is a good forum and TONS of great people, but they do expect you to do your research which means reading the beginner guides and doing a quick search of any question you might have. For example your rock question; there are many many threads with how to handle all the types of rock you might use and how to cure it.

You have a point there! However, sometimes the more you read, the more you're getting confused. That's what happened to me. I've ordered 20 lbs of Pukani dry rock. I've read that all I have to do is clean it from any debris/dead matter and just put it in the aquarium. Since it's cycling, I don't have to cure the rock or acid bathe it. I would have a problem though, if I put the rock in an established tank without cleaning it properly. Am I on the right track?

Hope this helps

Yes and thank you!

SC

Personally, I would not go with the canister filter. They are a pain to clean, and you'll have to do it fairly regularly. A HOB like the Aqua Clear 70 along with a skimmer attachment might be a better option.

Hi John0807! I reckon it's an advantage that the intake and outflow of a canister are separate. You can place them wherever you want and that helps the flow of the water. Some people say that a canisters are much quieter than HOBs. I'm not sure about that though. I believe that the main concern of many marine aquarists is that a canister is a potential nitrate factory. Yes, if you use bioballs, ceramic media, etc. That's why I chose to use Seachem Purigen instead. Since both HOB and canisters are serving the same purpose, the mechanical and chemical filtration of the tank, I think that at the end of the day it's a matter of taste, right?

As for lighting, I've had this http://a.co/dEP5Vn8 for a few months now and it works great for my 36g bow front.

That's interesting! Thanks!

I used to lug 5 gallon buckets of RO water from the grocery store back home and it became old pretty fast. It's so much more convenient to have your own system and IMO it's worth the price.

I guess I'm going to start with getting my water from my lfs and see how it goes. There's a chance I get bored of the trips and eventually buy a RO/DI system. :)

I think you're generally on the right track. Just a few suggestions.
- API makes two sets of kits, you should buy the other one. I think it's called reef master? Their phos test is garbage, it can't read low enough to tell you anything useful, but it's still a cost-saver to buy for the alk, ca, and nitrate. During the cycle you'll want to know ammonia, the seachem badges are great for ammo http://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php and theyre like $5. You can pick up a nitrite test, or a pack of strips that tell you ammonia and alk etc for that, as you won't need it after the first month.

Hi CStrickland! Yes, I've read that many aquarists are not happy with API test. So I've ordered Salifert's Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate tests to start with and after cycling I'm going to get Calcium, Magnesium and Alkalinity.

Sea salt, just to be clear, you need to buy tank salt, not like table salt.

OMG! I bought 20 lbs of fine table salt!:eek1:
Just kidding.:p

If you are going to buy the rodi from the lfs, get yourself a tds meter like this http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/tds-3-...m-digital.html so you can be sure they are selling you pure water. They usually don't. I have a spectrapure 90 gpd refurbished rodi that I like very much.

Yeah, I've read that some lfs are not that responsible, so I've already purchased one of these meters.

I think a good hang on protein skimmer would be a much better choice than the purigen, carbon, etc. option but I don't know which models are recommended

I've noticed that many hobbyists run their reef tanks without a skimmer. Different paths can lead to the same goal, right?

just curious why you would think a bow front is for freshwater?

Hey OldReefGuy! I wasn't referring to the shape of the tank. I was talking about it's initial purpose. It's obvious that it was built to be a freshwater aquarium as you can see here (http://www.interpetaquatics.co.uk/products/fishpod-aquarium/).

Drill it for you overflows and returns etc.....I got a 36g BF and in the excitement just set it up wishing I drilled it first! Find out if the glass is tempered or not and if not drill it!

I'm not comfortable with the idea. Maybe when I set up my 150 gallon. :)

Any thoughts on my post about the lights?
Do you think it would be ok to start cycling with the stock lights (2x18w compact fluorescent daylight) and install the LED lights later down the line?

Thanks for your input guys! I really appreciate it.

Flaring Afro

11/20/2016, 05:54 AM

I'd suggest not using any live rock at all. You don't need any, just like you don't need wood from the river in freshwater. It provides no benefit over dry rock functionally if you get a good clean up crew. You just get nasty hitchhikers that are a nightmare to deal with. The reason you might want live is to have a ton of little creatures to look for in the tank but I wouldn't suggest it for someone new or that wants things easy.

I also highly suggest drilling it for a sump. It again makes things much easier. Google beananimal overflow for the plumbing.

Bulk reef supply has RO/DI filters for fairly cheap and I wouldn't be surprised if they had some kind of Thanksgiving or Black Friday sale. It's not just about the cost in the long run, it's about the inconvenience of needing to drive out and lug buckets of water around every single water change.

ColoReefer970

11/20/2016, 08:54 AM

I would spend a few extra bucks for not API test kits..(if I had to pick 1 package on a deserted island, Id pick the red Sea combo pack)

nibor75

11/20/2016, 09:45 AM

I guess you are in the UK?

+1 for picking up a handheld TDS meter to check your pure water (essential whether toy buy an RODI or not).

For an RODI, something like this would do:
http://www.osmotics.co.uk/products/Ultra%252dPure-4-Stage-75-Gallon-Per-Day-RO-System.html

As you are in Europe, you can pick up Salifert test kits way less expensive than in the US. This is about the only thing you will find less expensive in Europe..... The API ammonia and phosphate tests are basically useless, the ammonia test often gives a false positive at the bottom the scale and the phosphate test is nowhere near sensitive enough.

+1 for giving the canister filter a miss. It will need cleaning out every couple minutes of days. Look at adding a sump if you can. It will give you somewhere to put your heaters, a skimmer, extra filtration...... plus the extra water in the system is always welcome. If you really cannot have a sump, a simple internal power filter is good for running occasional mechanical/chemical filtration.

Take your time choosing lighting. You don't need anything for the first few weeks and that will give you the time to decide what you really want.

Some of the German online stores a pretty good and will happily ship to the UK.l and you won't get hit with customs charges (at least for the next few months LOL).

http://sewatec.de
http://aquaristic.net

nibor75

11/20/2016, 09:50 AM

Fixed link. For some reason, I can't edit all the typos.
https://www.aquaristic.net

disc1

11/20/2016, 10:21 AM

I'd suggest not using any live rock at all. You don't need any, just like you don't need wood from the river in freshwater. It provides no benefit over dry rock functionally if you get a good clean up crew. You just get nasty hitchhikers that are a nightmare to deal with. The reason you might want live is to have a ton of little creatures to look for in the tank but I wouldn't suggest it for someone new or that wants things easy.

More often you get the beneficial type of hitchhikers that you just can't get any other way. Occasionally you get a bad guy but for the most part they are easy to deal with. The "nightmares" are few and far between.

CFR777

11/20/2016, 10:39 AM

Yes I live in the UK.

I've already ordered:
20 lbs of dry Pukani rock
20 lbs of Caribsea Arag-alive special grade sand
Salifert Nitrite, Nitrate and Ammonia tests
16lbs of Instant Ocean reef salt
2 oz of Dr Tims Ammonia Chloride
D-D Solutions Aquascape epoxy

I'm going to cycle it using ammonia. It takes longer, I know, but that's how I did it with my freshwater and it worked perfectly.

As for the sump, I know that a sump has many advantages over a canister filter. However, I'd rather have a closed system for now. I'm not saying that I won't add a sump in the future. I just want to keep it simple until I learn the ropes.

Thanks for the links nibor75!

Back to reading about lights and coral requirements. :reading:

Rython

11/20/2016, 11:24 AM

CFR777

11/20/2016, 04:41 PM

My understanding is that even for a closed system (without a sump), a hang-on back protein skimmer (like a Reef Octopus Classic 1000), is generally more effective and simpler to clean than a canister filter.

I have been researching a similar build for my nephew, and that seems to be the general consensus of people doing 40 gallon breeder builds.

From what I've read a protein skimmer is used to remove excess nutrients from the water. I think I'm going to try the natural method of filtration, which consists of only liverock and livesand and the nutrient export is provided by frequent partial water changes of 10-15% about every week.

Back to my reading... :reading:

Rython

11/20/2016, 04:54 PM

From what I've read a protein skimmer is used to remove excess nutrients from the water. I think I'm going to try the natural method of filtration, which consists of only liverock and livesand and the nutrient export is provided by frequent partial water changes of 10-15% about every week.

Back to my reading... :reading:

What's natural about a canister filter?

Flaring Afro

11/20/2016, 08:20 PM

More often you get the beneficial type of hitchhikers that you just can't get any other way. Occasionally you get a bad guy but for the most part they are easy to deal with. The "nightmares" are few and far between.

People have hitchhiking algae all the time. That's one of the most frequent reasons why people give up on the hobby, along with disease from overstocking and/or not QTing.

You can get small snails that do just as good of a job as the worms etc that you have in the rock. People who go the 100% dry route don't have any problems with stability and their tanks don't need any more water changes.

CFR777

11/20/2016, 08:56 PM

What's natural about a canister filter?

I'm sorry. I wasn't clear enough. The natural method of biological filtration consists of live rock and live sand. The chemical filtration (nutrient export) can be accomplished by absorption, ion exchange, protein skimming, etc. So, instead of using a protein skimmer, I thought I could reduce the excess nutrients with frequent water changes and a canister filter filled with poly-filter, Purigen and activated carbon (absorption). Like I said, I want a closed system. Hope that makes sense.

CFR777

11/21/2016, 03:35 PM

Walla2GSP

11/21/2016, 05:38 PM

Running a FOWLR with a canister filter can be accomplished, but is a lot more work then running a canister filter on a freshwater system. A saltwater tank is very much a miniature eco-system, so picking the right filter media from day one is very important. It is rare that someone successfully keeps a reef tank with a canister filter, and it will take a lot of diligence on your part if you really want to try it. The hardest part for me running canister filters is keeping parameters steady from week to week when I rinse the filter media in my canister. Oversizing your filter will help a little, but ultimately it is gonna be up to you to change and run the right media, and clean the filter out frequently. Also, look out for leaks, almost every canister filter I have dealt with leaked at some point and needs to be resealed.

Walla2GSP

11/21/2016, 05:41 PM

My tank arrived today! So excited!
I'm receiving the sand (Caribsea Arag-alive) and the dead rock (Reef bones, Pukani) tomorrow. Can you please tell me, is it ok to put them in the tank as soon as I get them?

Best practice is to rinse them then place them in the tank. Spend some time planning your aquascaping and getting the dry rock placed and glued where you want before you add the sand.

CFR777

11/21/2016, 05:51 PM

Thank you for your advice Walla2GSP.
When you say rinse them, I suppose you mean with saltwater, right?
That would make sense for the live sand.
Does it matter if I rinse the dry rock with tap water?

Rython

11/21/2016, 06:52 PM

Pukani in particular really needs to be cured, not just rinsed. It will leach phosphates. Search pukani here and you'll see what I mean. Also, while rinsing is best practice for dry sand, you're going to kill a lot of the bacteria in live sand if you rinse it. Might want to do a search on that too to get it from a more reputable source.

CFR777

11/22/2016, 06:38 AM

CFR777

11/22/2016, 06:40 AM

homer1475

11/22/2016, 07:00 AM

I'm shopping around for a RO/DI system and I came across this one (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Compact-Reverse-Osmosis-Aquarium-Tropical/dp/B00A4EP2BO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479816879&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=compact+reverse+osmosis&psc=1). Is it as good as a full size RO/DI of the same gpd output?

While that will work, it has no DI(deionization) stage which will clean up that last 2 to 4 TDI that the RO doesnt get. Easy enough to add on, but it may be cheaper to just buy a unit from a well respected dealer like spectrapure.

CFR777

11/22/2016, 07:37 AM

thelawnwrangler

11/22/2016, 07:59 AM

3) Do I have to buy a RO/DI filter? I mean, the tank is only 40 gallons. Wouldn't it be less of a hassle if I just get the RO water from the lfs?

I am a year into getting RO/DI water from local fish store for a 36 total gallon system. I just use 5 gallon buckets from Lowes with lids, and pop them in the back of my truck. I have a board in there to keep them from sliding.

I am getting close to doing RO/DI- my sump pump seems to be acting funny though, and I need that to flush waste water so unsure if I pull trigger anytime soon.

75mixedreef

11/22/2016, 10:18 AM

I really don't like the canister filters. The thing you need to remember about filtering is that there are 2 sides to it and you really need to consider both to mitigate the risks, 3 if you care using products for their chemical reactions. There is mechanical filtration and biological filtration.

Biological filtration is great and is how the ammonia gets turned into nitrates, but it is also how nitrates become algae. If you do not remove the nitrates (and phosphates) from the water column then algae will for you. The downside of biological filtration is that it is not very adaptable in absorbing nutrient spikes, it can most of the work long term if you set it up right but one event could cause a chain reaction that could crash your entire tank. Losing anemones and sea cucumbers is a good example, snails follow the same principle but are small enough to not be too damaging. The main advantage is that this process is natural and is relatively cost free once it has the correct conditions. You might need a light or something but with LED costs you can buy a 36W bulb for $30 and run it for $1 or less a month. It also requires some of the least maintenance since you just let it do its thing then, if it is algae, you trim it back for nutrient removal.

Mechanical filtration is your filter socks, screens or floss and your skimmer. Those remove crap from your system before it decays into ammonia or excess nutrients. This means they are good at handling spikes that could otherwise damage your system. The downside is that they can not touch ammonia, NO3 or PO4. As good of a job as they might do, they can never remove those nutrients so they would continue to rise without some other sort of removal. These also require maintenance in order to clean out the filter or skimmer and remove the captured crud from the system.

The chemical removal would be your purigen, carbon, dechlor, ammonia lock, and other chemicals (or similar because I don't believe carbon or purigen is technically a chemical reaction but is similar enough for this example) lock up, or change their targeted chemicals to remove them from your system. This method is relatively simple because you just add it to the system to buy time, absorb for later removal, or have it get skimmed out with your skimmer along with whatever it is taking out. The downside with these is that they are all temporary measures and unless it is very cheap and easy to use like carbon then it is not recommended to use at all times. They also cost much more than other more sustainable processes and require you to initiate the process each and every time making it one of the most demanding in terms of maintenance.

Each category has a range of cost and maintenance required that overlaps by a large margin, so what method you use of each type has a large impact. For example growing chaeto is much easier and cheaper than growing mangroves. Purigen is also relatively easy and cheap, probably more so than grooving mangroves (not sure since I haven't done either) even though they are in categories that would indicate otherwise. So make sure you stay on the easier and more sustainable side of things to start out with where less can go wrong. Your purigen might be just fine for now, but eventually you are going to want to fill in your filtering/nutrient removal process, at least to the point where you have a good mechanical and biological process. Like a skimmer and chaeto. Water changes can sure replace all of this, but that is the most expensive and labor intensive of them all.

CFR777

11/22/2016, 12:56 PM

Hi 75mixedreef and thank you for your input. Allow me to play the devil's advocate though.

The chemical removal would be your purigen, carbon, dechlor, ammonia lock, and other chemicals (or similar because I don't believe carbon or purigen is technically a chemical reaction but is similar enough for this example) lock up, or change their targeted chemicals to remove them from your system. This method is relatively simple because you just add it to the system to buy time, absorb for later removal, or have it get skimmed out with your skimmer along with whatever it is taking out. The downside with these is that they are all temporary measures and unless it is very cheap and easy to use like carbon then it is not recommended to use at all times. They also cost much more than other more sustainable processes and require you to initiate the process each and every time making it one of the most demanding in terms of maintenance.

That's why I chose to use Purigen in a canister filter instead of buying a protein skimmer. It's easily regenerated, so I don't have to replace it every time it exhausts. I reckon that absorption (from Purigen), combined with weekly water changes is another way of removing the excessive organic waste and nutrients.
I'm not saying that this is the right way. But maybe it's an alternative way. Time will tell.

Water changes can sure replace all of this, but that is the most expensive and labor intensive of them all.

I agree that it may be labor intensive. Given that one has a closed aquarium system and a RO/DI, how can this be more expensive than a system with a sump/refugium, protein skimmers, additional lighting and pumps, etc? Please elaborate.

MuShu

11/22/2016, 01:08 PM

homer1475

11/22/2016, 01:56 PM

Thanks for the info homer1475.
The supplier offers an add-on DI cartridge and the filters w/ the membrane are half the price of those of the full size unit. Still trying to figure out what's the catch.

Lol the gallon per day on that unit is 19. If you read the question from the posting someone asks him what the LPD is. He states he makes about 25 litres in 7 to 8 hours or roughly 75 litres if run for 24 hours continuously.

In comparison my unit is a 75 gallons(284 litres) per day unit and I make 5 gallons(19 litres) in about an hour. It will take you days to just fill the tank. And an entire day just to make WC water.

Theres your catch!

CFR777

11/22/2016, 03:30 PM

Lol the gallon per day on that unit is 19. If you read the question from the posting someone asks him what the LPD is. He states he makes about 25 litres in 7 to 8 hours or roughly 75 litres if run for 24 hours continuously.

In comparison my unit is a 75 gallons(284 litres) per day unit and I make 5 gallons(19 litres) in about an hour. It will take you days to just fill the tank. And an entire day just to make WC water.

Theres your catch!

That's not a deal braker for me, as I'm not going to need more than 5 gallons per water change. It may take a bit longer to fill the whole tank though! :facepalm:

CFR777

11/22/2016, 05:27 PM

I have a canister filter, but I run it with just two sizes of seachem matrix and a layer of carbon. It seems to have also become a dark refugium. So far it is working well, but I also clean it regularly.

What kind of canister filter do you have and what's the size of your tank?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OldReefGuy

11/22/2016, 05:44 PM

" I thought I could reduce the excess nutrients with frequent water changes and a canister filter filled with poly-filter, Purigen and activated carbon (absorption). Like I said, I want a closed system. Hope that makes sense."

You can keep a system like you describe above. Just make sure minimum 10% wc a week.
I kept my first tank with just a ug filter and 100lbs LR for over 3 years before wife forced it down.

MuShu

11/22/2016, 07:08 PM

What kind of canister filter do you have and what's the size of your tank?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have a 55gal and run an Eheim Pro 3e. I also run a reef octopus skimmer.

Rython

11/22/2016, 10:57 PM

Thank you for the input Rython. Does that apply for a new tank as well?

Yes. That pukani will come with all kinds of dead stuff on it. You can rinse it and scrub it with a tooth brush, but it's very porous and will still have tons of decaying ocean organisms on/in it.

You can throw it in the tank and let it cure in there, but it can take weeks and will smell horrible (decay). And you'll have to do a lot of water changes to get all those nutrients out. That's why most people do it in a brut trash can outside ou on the garage. A powerheads and heater may speed it up.

You can also bathe the rock in mueratic acid, basically eating away the dead stuff, and the outer layer of the rock. I understand that speeds the process up considerably. You'll want to read up on that.

I'm not sure what you do about the phosphate leaching. You'll have to read up on that. I just know it's a downside to using pukani. But it's a popular rock, so people must have found a way to prepare it for use. Maybe the acid bath will do it.

The live sand is a similar deal. It's been sitting in a bag on a shelf. There is already a lot of die off. But since it's mostly microorganisms the die off isn't going to outweigh the filtration capacity of what's still alive. The dead will feed the living to some extent. But if you rinse it, you'll lose even more live bacteria. And you'll get rid of dead stuff too. But if you're going to do that, it begs the question, why not just buy dry sand and add bacteria in a bottle? Although if you aren't going to run a skimmer, it might still be the better choice, since you won't have a good way to pull that junk out of the water (other than lots of water changes).

Also, I wanted to make sure you know that you can run a protien skimmer without a sump. Many people have successful reefs with just rock, sand, a hang-on-back protien skimmer and water changes for filtration and nutrient removal. Protien skimmers are so effective that forgoing one is kind of "the hard way". But there are certainly many ways to do this, and I would never discourage anyone from trying it their own way. But this is an expensive hobby, so it's good to have a realistic idea of the challenges that lay ahead, so at least you're making informed choices.

CStrickland

11/22/2016, 11:17 PM

The issue with Pukani rock is two parts. It tends to have a lot of dead matter on it, which will decay over time and eventually be processed. It also tends to leach phosphates, because the actual calcium molecules of the rock itself have absorbed a great deal of it. So... the dead stuff rots and bacteria eat it, cycling the tank. But maybe it's too much and the water gets fouled. Worst case scenario the ammonia spikes to a bacteria-inhibiting level and halts the process entirely. And... even in clean water or after blasting it with a power washer, the phos continues to release for months as the levels in the rock try to match those in the water, fueling algae growth.

This is why people "cook" Pukani. Not with heat but by exporting the nutrients out of the rock itself so that it does not throw off the tank chemistry from the jump. There are many threads on cooking/curing Pukani and revitalizing it with acid to burn off the dirtier outer layer. If it were cheap and easy everyone would use it.

CStrickland

11/22/2016, 11:20 PM

Double post, trying to fix a typo

75mixedreef

11/29/2016, 01:34 PM

I agree that it (water changes) may be labor intensive. Given that one has a closed aquarium system and a RO/DI, how can this be more expensive than a system with a sump/refugium, protein skimmers, additional lighting and pumps, etc? Please elaborate.

Sorry, didn't check back until now because of the holiday and I forgot about this thread.

Large water changes get expensive because of the amount or salt and RODI you go through. Without any other filtering, besides live rock, you should be doing weekly 25% water changes. That's 100% a month. It depends on the size of your system, except that the equipment will get bigger with bigger systems as well, but it is almost always better to have some filtering capacity that will reduce the need to have weekly 25% water changes down to 10% biweekly or even monthly. If you can go from replacing 100% of your systems water volume a month to 10% that is a lot of savings in salt in water, especially over time.

Compare that to a 12W light over chaeto and a 13W pump on a skimmer. I did the math for my area at $0.11 per KW and it comes out to about $1 per month to run 25W for 12 hours a day. Skimmer would be on 24 hours a day so maybe $1.50 a month, but that is still way less than the amount of salt you would go through.

My example is for a 75 gallon system, I do 10 gallon monthly water changes so that's a difference of 65 gallons worth of salt. A 200 gallon salt box costs $60 at the local store. That comes out to about $20 just in salt cost, water may not be more than $1 if you make your own, but stores usually sell it for about 40 cents a gallon. The point is that you could easily be paying $20 a month in the difference there. In a year you would have paid for the cost of the skimmer and most likely the chaeto with its light. Large water changes really add up in cost and are necessary when you do not have other methods of removing those nutrients.

I might be exaggerating slightly since you might not be running an SPS system where you need those nutrients to be that low, but even at half that cost it still adds up to be way more than the running cost of equipment. Eventually you will have saved more than the cost of the equipment and the equipment will be much easier than the manual water changes.

Your purigen might work pretty well, but how efficient is it and how often does it need to be replaced? I'm sure it doesn't absorb NO3 or PO4 if it absorbs organics, plus when will it fail or when might you screw up and introduce chlorine to your system. Do you need more than one running at a time? Do you need a second set to run while you clean and dry the first? To me that seems like a lot of variables and things to go wrong that could hurt your tank instead of helping it. I know we have to look at our systems at ticking time bombs where any piece of it could fail at any time, but this one just seems too risky with too much riding on it. I would rather use it as a backup or a secondary method in case something breaks down.

CFR777

11/29/2016, 03:01 PM

Thank you for your input guys! I really appreciate it.

I'm going to soak the Pukani rock in bleach to remove most organics, then leave it in RO water for 2-3 days to see if it leaches any phosphates. If not I'll add it to my tank. If it does leach, then I'm going to "cook" it in citric acid.

Purigen can be regenerated, therefore, theoretically, it lasts forever. I've given it much thought and read more about different types of chemical, biological and mechanical filtration. I've decided to give it a try and run my tank skimmerless. I'm going to use a canister filter (wool/sponge, purigen and carbon in that order from inflow to outflow) for mechanical and chemical filtration and a DIY reactor (rowaphos) to remove any phosphate. I was thinking of adding a DIY algae turf scrubber, but it's too much of a hassle. Theoretically I'm not going to have any problems with excessive nutrients or phosphate if I do a 10-15% water change per week. Practically, I don't know for sure. Time will tell I guess.

75mixedreef

11/30/2016, 08:04 AM

If you add the reactor to remove phosphate, I hope you realize that you have nothing to remove nitrates. I have an algae scrubber to remover nitrogen and phosphates and a skimmer to remove excess organics. You are replacing a filter sock with the floss, the skimmer with the purigen, and some carbon in the canister. I would at least get some chaeto to soak up excess nutrients, otherwise you are counting on water changes to be your only source of nitrate export.

I know you have the purigen but that only removed organics that would decay to nitrates, anything it misses could still cause you problems. I'm also not too confident on the capacity of the purigen, its intended for biocubes. You have a 40 gallon tank with a sump, so probably double the water volume these were intended for even if they say they can work for larger systems. It also says they are for freshwater and saltwater tanks, so who knows what their filtering capacity is on the saltwater side. Freshwater takes so much less to keep it clean, which explains the 100 gallon capacity on that little pouch. I'm not trying to scare you off the purigen, just trying to get you to consider secondary nutrient removal systems.

CFR777

11/30/2016, 12:46 PM

You're absolutely right 75mixedreef! I'm replacing the filter sock with floss/sponge as both are doing the same job, and the skimmer with Purigen. I've read that protein skimmers don't remove nitrates from water column. All they do is remove organics that can later become nitrates. It's the same with Purigen. It will remove the organics before they are converted into the toxic nitrogenous components. Both methods prevent the nitrate levels from increasing to dangerous levels. Therefore, if I place Purigen in my tank from the beginning and do regular water changes, nitrates won't build up. My tank is 30 gallons, water changes of 3-5 gallons every week won't be too much of a trouble. Also, sufficient live rock helps a lot. The anaerobic bacteria inside the rock will convert the nitrates into nitrogen gas. I understand it's a delicate balance but there's more than one way to tackle a problem.

75mixedreef

11/30/2016, 03:33 PM

I'm still afraid that your nitrates are going to be climbing more than you would like. By all means, there is nothing in your setup that would not work. I'm just worried that you will have issues getting rid of green hair algae. Your setup could work for quite a while before the nitrates do start to get high, but when they do you have to remember that the only way for you to lower them is to do water changes.

I prefer to not have to do water changes at all. I have gone 6 months before without doing any water changes and my tank was doing great. I have 2 part and magnesium to maintain my parameters so when you get the system going well with the ATS and skimmer, all you need to do is monitor the parameters like normal and test NO3 and PO4 only when there are symptoms of issues. I run mine as more of a set and forget with spot checks and regular additives. You are aiming for more of a constant maintenance approach with the water changes, regenerating the purigen, replacing carbon and filter floss. All I have to do is clean a skimmer cup once in a while and trim the algae, it takes me less than 5 min a week. I add chemicals when I feed and that takes about 30 sec since I know how much to add. You probably have 60-90 min worth of maintenance every week before you even start testing or regenerating the purigen. I think I'll stick to my less labor intensive strategy where water changer are not the primary source of nutrient removal.

CFR777

11/30/2016, 04:10 PM

You're probably right. Nevertheless, I'll give it a try and see what happens. Thanks for your input!