Algae scrubber vs vodka dosing vs biopellets

[sturner91]

Alright guys I've been having an algae problem for a little while now. I have a good amount of hair algae along with some cyano on the rocks. I went ahead and got a up flow algae scrubber but I think the algae is out competing the scrubber. I run gfo and carbon as well and have a refugium in my sump. My last test was showing 20ppm Nitrate and I don't recall the phosphate at this moment.

In my situation would it be worth it to try diving into biopellets or vodka dosing? Once reaching my desired levels I would attempt to get the algae scrubber to work how needed. I did have an overfeeding problem as well which has been drastically reduced. From feeding a couple pinches of cobalt flake food a day to every few days varying between frozen and flake and pellet. Usually feed about 3 times a week now, roughly.

Any input is greatly appreciated. I will get updated numbers tomorrow after work so there is something accurate to work with.

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[2smokes]

How old is the tank and did you used dry rock?In case of your rock is leaching phosphates then no elgae scrubber ,vodka dosing or biopellets would out competing the algae and cyano that grows on the rocks.Because thoose algae feed directly with po4 before its even released into the water column.In this case ,patience is the best way to go and after a while the leaching rocks will get covered in a thin layer of calcium from the water and your cyano and GHA problems will dissapear.Also ,when you use a ATS is recomended not to use GFO and carbon(i think you meant here activated charcoal not carbon dosing,ie vodka).

[sturner91]

The tank is still a baby. It's been up for 5months give or take. Rock was a combination of live and dry rock. Some was used from my tank when it was a 29g now its a 75g bow front. The added rock was dry rock.
Yes I did mean activated carbon(using brs rox), I'm running the brs gfo and carbon reactor.

Maybe it would be worth it to get a lawnmower blenny to tackle the algae while it's there? It would help with battling the algae as well and keeping the rocks clean, no?

My preference in the end is to stick it out with the ATS once levels are where they should be. As of now I am running the ATS in my display to try and out compete and potential nutrients in the water column. I will be moving the ATS to my refugium eventually though.

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[2smokes]

The more you battle the algae and the cyano ,the more you will have to wait until you will have an established tank;Blooms are in this order,diatoms(sometimes) then cyano then the GHA that takes cyano place.After a while the GHA will slowly dissapear and you will have an established aquarium.In the meantime if you interfere and kill the GHA with chemicals,the cycle will start again with cyano bloom first then GHA ...To keep a foxface,a blenny or snails that will eat algae is not a bad idea but the algae should dissapear by itself even if you dont use GFO ,ATS or even if you dont have a protein skimmer.Normally this takes up to a year and a half.

[sturner91]

I see.
I had cyano problem earlier on I thought that was all I was looking at in blooms. Unfortunately I can't do a fox face due to having a ****y bicolor angel, he's been going after my sailfin tang :(

I think I may draw some luck with a lawnmower to at least help keep the hair algae shortened. Hear they are some good entertainment for the tank too.
I think as you said, it's going to be best to play the patience game at this point. God I hate waiting... [emoji14]

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[TauntingBeef]

Watch out for the lawnmover mine misses with new arrivals

[sturner91]

Wouldnt be adding any other fish except for maybe a mandarin but that wouldn't be till my tank hits the 1yr mark.

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[75mixedreef]

Why do you say that battling the algae interferes with having an established aquarium? I haven't heard that before. I have heard and experienced that it is normal to go through those stages, but I can't see why putting a nutrient export process into place would do anything but benefit your tank long term. Even water changes and manual removal would help the tank, so why do you think that would cause more algae?

The only thing I can think of is if he were to somehow kill off the algae but then not remove the nutrients but that is a separate issue not related to GFO, carbon dosing, or an ATS. If phosphates were leeching from the rock then you want to strip as many nutrients from the water as possible so the phosphates get pulled out faster and with less of an effect. I don't really buy that calcium covers the rock preventing more leeching, the rock becomes live and the phosphates are used up in the live bacteria and whatever else is living in our rocks. The phosphates are mainly still there, but since the living organisms lock it up, it can no longer be used to fuel algae. I just don't see where an algae cycle fits into all this.

[sde1500]

All newer tanks go through periods of algae, no reason not to fight it as much as possible of course. Currently fighting off a lot of GHA myself, but water is testing very low nitrates and phosphates. If the rock is leaching phosphates, algae will bind it as soon as it is released from the rock. Just got to keep working on manual removal, and maybe add some creatures that eat it. I added a pincushion urchin that is making serious headway in the fight. Pair that with a way to keep removing nutrients and you'll get ahead eventually.

@75mixedreef, for the calcium theory, 2smokes has been touting a claim that the best way to fight phosphates is through calcium, and that it would eventually bind it into the rocks. Its been argued to death a bunch in the chemistry forum a month or two ago I believe.

[sturner91]

I have a tuxedo urchin that I added in a couple weeks ago he's been moving around like crazy but the algae seems to be growing faster than he can eat. I do have a bunch of hermits in there as well. The algae is primarily only on the rocks. No where else. My refugium is loaded with cyano which I don't mind. Rather it grow there then in display.

As originally stated my nitrates float around 20ppm. I wanna say my phosphate was around 5ppm but I can't recall at this time. I need to run new tests tonight when I get home to have updated results.

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[sturner91]

As far as I can tell the algae isn't dying off at all. It's firmly attached to the rocks. Takes a good tug to get it off.

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[sde1500]

20 ppm isn't terrible, but you should probably get that down. 5ppm is awful, you need to get that down. Honestly though, I don't think overfeeding is any part of your problem. I feed my fish usually 2x a day, I don't think you should be feeding your fish less than 1x per day. Especially since you seem to have a very heavily stocked tank. 72 gallon I see, from stalking your comments.

How often are you switching out your gfo? With that high phosphates you may need to switch it out sooner as you are exhausting it faster than you think. I think most upflow ATS are pretty low powered, may look into some sort of DIY reactor or waterfall scrubber. Biopellets seems hit or miss, and will take a while to get a good bacteria population built up in them. Vodka/vinegar dosing seems popular, can't hurt to give that a shot to push nutrients down while you do manual removal as well. To fight back the algae, either just keep ripping it out by hand or try a scrubbing it with a toothbrush. Dip the toothbrush in peroxide too, helps kill the algae back.

Also, what are you running in your fuge? Have you tried getting a ball of Cheato in there?

[sturner91]

Yes it is heavily stocked. The gfo/carbon is relatively new. It's been running for about a month. I did replace the gfo and carbon a week ago to play it safe. I'd prefer to use a waterfall style scrubber but I lack the space to run one which is why I went with the upflow scrubber. My thoughts were, I have a reactor that isn't being used at this moment. I could throw biopellet in there and have that run or dose it with vodka or vinegar. The fuge ran chaeto before which dissolved away. I ended up throwing in some grape looking stuff which did great for a while then it slowly dissolved as well. I just restocked my fuge with more chaeto and some red branchy algae(forget the name of it). I have rubble rock in the fuge as well.

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[sturner91]

I do run the eshopps curve led for my fuge for lighting. So I don't think lighting is a problem.

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[sde1500]

Vodka will address the Nitrates more than the phosphates I believe, but there is an underlying relationship between the two. That is beyond my knowledge really. But Vodka I think will have the most rapid impact on the levels. Wouldn't hurt to try that, but also get that fuge running well, that will help long term keeping levels down. And for now I'd replace GFO every other week, could go even sooner, hard to tell when it is exhausted, but when levels are as high as you have them it can exhaust very quickly. I'd be willing to bet your gfo hadn't been doing anything for a few weeks.

[sturner91]

Alright Welp it sounds like my fish are going to get drunk(not seriously). I'm also gonna grab a lawnmower blenny tonight to have. Now to figure out what's a cheap 80proof vodka.

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[sde1500]

Karkov, popov, any of those plastic handles of vodka haha.

[sturner91]

Karkov, popov, any of those plastic handles of vodka haha.
Does it matter if it's grain vs potato? It shouldn't right?

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[sde1500]

Beats me sorry. I don't really dose my tank, I just know using good vodka is a waste.

[sturner91]

One last question, when dosing vodka should I dose before or after the skimmer? Basically, my sump setup I can dose directly into the return section or into my skimmer section. I feel it would be best in the return so the vodka goes straight to the display where the algae is creating problems.

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[75mixedreef]

Alcohol has no protein in it so it will not skim. It should not matter unless the lower viscosity of the alcohol causes less bubbles right when you dose. I usually like to put things in after the skimmer just as a habit, but where ever it works for you. Many people put it in the display tank just because of the low volume is unlikely to affect any fish or corals.

Also, the vodka itself does not do anything so it does not matter where it goes first. It is food for bacteria that will eat up nitrates and phosphates as well. I'm not 100% sure but I think the way it works is that the bacteria blooms with the vodka and the skimmer skims out the bacteria pulling the nutrients it eat with it. I never heard it fully explained on how and why it works just that it does. Its also possible that the bacteria convert the nutrients into a more harmless form like Nitrogen gas, I'm not sure.

[sturner91]

Ahhhhhh!! I wasn't expecting this!! About 80ppm of nitrates. What the!!
Phosphate is floating around <.5ppm

I think when I was playing around in my refugium last night I stirred up something giving me the Nitrate spike.

Good thing I picked up vodka. I can't do a water change till the weekend. :(

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[DamonG]

The vodka/carbon dose is going to take a good couple weeks to start dropping.. I actually run pellets(recirculating reactor) , a scrubber and cheato.. The nutrients of course stay at pretty much nothing.. But.. Your going to need to do something with your Nitrates until the dosing kicks in.. I will say with pellets(but the reactor is key), Nitrates are a non issue and I don't think about them.. Haven't in years..

But in your case, vodka wouldn't be bad.. And what the vodka/carbon source is, is a surface for bacteria population growth(and you have to bear with me since I've been using pellets for years, and that's how I think of it when I explain it. But it's the same for all carbon dosing). This bacteria population growth(increased massively) takes time to build, thus, why it doesn't happen overnight. But, when and once it does, the bacteria then feeds off the Nitrates and phosphate(in the somewhat correct ratio, but even that is a bit subjective), and thus consume those nutrients..

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[sturner91]

Yea I wasn't expecting an overnight fix although that would be nice.. Ha. It seems I should be fine just dosing vodka and running my scrubber at least that's how I feel I'm being directed. Maybe it wouldn't hurt running the pellets with it.. Either way it's going to take a while for the bacteria to populate like you said.

What pellets do you run? I've seen the brs have been troubling for some due to floating?

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[DamonG]

Yea I wasn't expecting an overnight fix although that would be nice.. Ha. It seems I should be fine just dosing vodka and running my scrubber at least that's how I feel I'm being directed. Maybe it wouldn't hurt running the pellets with it.. Either way it's going to take a while for the bacteria to populate like you said.

What pellets do you run? I've seen the brs have been troubling for some due to floating?

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The thing with pellets is mainly the reactor.. If you can get a recirc, your well ahead of the game because you have infinitely more control.. Mine pretty much just trickles water and keeps it at 0.5..

And I have a reef dynamics reactor and ruin the pellets from them (though, avast has an inexpensive recirc design that works pretty well), and you can still get the pellets.. I like the rd pellets, and am lucky that I still have them locally.. But if you can find some, they are worth it.. They are the NoPo pellets.. But if you soak your pellets for 48 hours prior to adding them to your reactor, you will know the floaters and can just pull them.. You will always have a few floaters no matter the brand from what I've experienced.. I always add either some mb7 or zeobak during the soak..

And you'll be fine running that combination.. I even dosed vodka for a little bit with a dosing pump, which made it hands off easy.. But that was before the pellets..

It will probably take two weeks or so of your vodka for it to begin dropping.. If you can wait that long, you will see a significant amount of drop more than likely..

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[sturner91]

It's not a matter of if I can wait that long. I need to regardless. Can you hook me up with some pellets you suggest? I'll browse around for a reactor that has recirculating capability that's within my price range and size requirements.

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[DamonG]

It's not a matter of if I can wait that long. I need to regardless. Can you hook me up with some pellets you suggest? I'll browse around for a reactor that has recirculating capability that's within my price range and size requirements.

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You mean a link?

Here you go:

nopo bio pellets | aquariumsource.com
http://aquariumsource.com/products/bio-pellets

And here is avast :

Fluidized Media Reactor Kits – Avast Marine Works
http://www.avastmarine.com/collections/you-built/products/fluidized-media-reactor-kit

I didn't see the recirculating mod, so you may have to contact them.. But I like the build models, as they are fun to construct, and saves a few pennies.. But mostly, they are fun to build..

From note 5.. rip note 7

[sturner91]

I did. Phone doesn't always type what I want or my thumbs just forget to type it. Thanks!

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[DamonG]

I did. Phone doesn't always type what I want or my thumbs just forget to type it. Thanks!

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No problem.. :)

From note 5.. rip note 7

[sturner91]

Why are recirculating biopellet reactors almost impossible to find? They either cost an arm and a leg or the diy is for outdated products you can't get any more. I can't grasp the concept well enough to try to diy it myself, I need instructions. Mehh

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[DamonG]

Why are recirculating biopellet reactors almost impossible to find? They either cost an arm and a leg or the diy is for outdated products you can't get any more. I can't grasp the concept well enough to try to diy it myself, I need instructions. Mehh

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I honestly don't know as far as availability.. But it's something I noticed also.. I think it's the cost associated.. Maybe.. And the concept is simple enough honestly.. Basically what your doing is taking the output water and making a loop back to the input.. And then on the output, your going to control with a valve how much actually goes out(restriction) and now much you divert back into the recirculation. It does take a bit of I guess really looking at how it works..

Avast, if you contact them probably still has a diagram, that way, you can kind of see if.. But if you look at calcium reactors and study the design, is basically what your doing.. I built one years ago on a tlf media reactor.. And you really only need two pumps and some pvc parts.. Unless you do it with tubing..

From note 5.. rip note 7

[sturner91]

I emailed avast to see if they have any special orders they can do or anything. We'll see from there. I did water cooling for my pc so I'm good with running things like that just need to fully understand the design concept. To my understanding some people get away with running just one pump. Then setting a restriction on the outlet. As water comes out the outlet new water is drawn in. I would need to completely water proof mine so it could run externally. The other part I've been a bit confused about is how much flow would be needed. I get that the pellets should stay moving, but based off the sizing of the piping and the inlet outlet valves, size of the unifitting and what not how much restriction is there and does it need to be compensated? I always overpower pumps but I don't want to overkill this. Especially when there is no need. Minor overkill is one thing.

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[sturner91]

So Damon, let me run this by you and see your thoughts.

I'm thinking this reactor:

https://www.amazon.com/Bubble-Magus-Hang-Media-Reactor/dp/B01DFW7JQ2/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1480528852&sr=8-16&keywords=media+reactor

I'll probably just work with tubing to a pump create the circulation, throw a T or two in and a few ball valves. One valve for internal circulation and one for exit.

Thoughts?

[sturner91]

Avast replied to my email with this:

We discontinued this item when we released the Spyglass reactors. They are a recirculating reactor and the cost was about the same, but the Spyglass works much better and is much easier to service.

The spyglass does look nice. I may just grab one of those and see what happens.

[DamonG]

Avast replied to my email with this:

We discontinued this item when we released the Spyglass reactors. They are a recirculating reactor and the cost was about the same, but the Spyglass works much better and is much easier to service.

The spyglass does look nice. I may just grab one of those and see what happens.
It would certainly be easier.. Especially if you don't want to mess with the theory.. I had a Spyglass and didn't like it actually.. But it could just be me.. But, i was using gfo with mine.. Pellets seem to at least look like they work good since they're a lighter media..

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[sturner91]

Yea the only thing that gets me with the Spyglass is the waterfall style. How it over flows sections. Not sure how much I like that and would really need to investigate my sump space. My skimmer takes up most of the space and not sure if I could get the Spyglass in there. Plus you can't direct where the outflow goes since its just an overflow..

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[DamonG]

Yea the only thing that gets me with the Spyglass is the waterfall style. How it over flows sections. Not sure how much I like that and would really need to investigate my sump space. My skimmer takes up most of the space and not sure if I could get the Spyglass in there. Plus you can't direct where the outflow goes since its just an overflow..

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Yes, that was what I didn't care about it.. Well, a couple things.. For my system and the gfo I was using, I ended up modifying with a larger pump.. And the sponges did not hold up too well.. It was also a bit tight as far as removing the media from the reactor. It just ended up being easier for a traditional reactor, one of their standard models.. And it did take up a lot of space. Just because it had to be in the sump, versus being able to place it outside..

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[sturner91]

So I think I may just end up getting the reef dynamic due to size and external options.

However, I just got home today and have been greated with a skimmer freaking out. How do you guys combat this situation? Maybe I don't have a large enough skimmer? It's a eshopps psk100. The lid is always slipping up like that, bubbles constantly come out through the holes, is this normal skimmer behavior?



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[DamonG]

Too dry of a foam, and it doesn't actually break down back to liquid in the collection cup(one of the dangers of running dry skim..) That's why I always laugh when people are impressed by dark and thick skim. This dry foam, if your skimmer is really producing, sits on the collection cup, and doesn't break back down down. It simply keeps churning foam, and that foam then pops the lid off.. This is fine if your skimmer isn't performing heavily, but if it is, that dry dark foam takes an extremely long time to break down, if it really ever does to liquid. You pop the lid off because your skimmer is just building foam on top of foam..

Simply wet your skim.. Just a little bit at a time.. So that the foam does break down.. I adjust mine so that the foam initially slowly slides down to sides.. Lol, I don't get impressed by deep, dark skim.. That's why, if your skimmer is truly good, you can adjust your skim to whatever consistency you want..

And the dynamics is a great reactor.. Honestly, one of the best, if not the best of your going to do pellets. I've had mine for a few years, and to me, is been one of the best investments I've ever made on a tank.. I initially had it on my 110,moved it to my 50,and now have it on my 180. I have the 135 model, and is worth noting simply because at max, I have put in 16oz of pellets one time and one time only(when I first purchased the reactor). Most of the time I only run 8oz of pellets, and only need to open that thing maybe 1/8 to 1/4 of the way(that is on my 240 gallon two current system).. And I still get 0.5 nitrate... And I haven't had to top off my pellets once this year.,and i still have plenty left in there.

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[italquam]

So it is safe to say that bio pellets work better than algae scrubber???

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[sturner91]

So it is safe to say that bio pellets work better than algae scrubber???

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I think it's arguable. I just received all my stuff to build my biopellet reactor. As of now I've been vodka dosing. I'm dosing 1.8ml a day. I have it split up to .45ml 4 times a day.

I ended up having to hit my tank with chemiclean to knock out my cyano. I still have hair algae everywhere.

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[jstack]

Following 5 month old tank an the advice is vodka dosing maybe just take the wallet out and throw that in their too . But oh wait it a heavily stocked tank

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[sturner91]

Following 5 month old tank an the advice is vodka dosing maybe just take the wallet out and throw that in their too . But oh wait it a heavily stocked tank

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Not sure if just here to be a dick or give reasonable advice. Oh wait, it's just a dick.

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[italquam]

Well it seems like there is no prefect solution, but is seems like bio pellets in a reactor and a good skimmer are a good system

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