What murdered my clowns?

[Ssteve]

Came home to both my clowns ripped to pieces on the bottom of my tank and I have no idea why. They have been in the tank for about 3months with no aggression shown to them by any other fish and the only inverts I have are a few red leg hermits and three emerald crabs.

The tank gets fed decent but I have cut back to one small feeding the last three days to help with some algae issues.

Fish list is:
Small hippo tang
Three chromis
Flame hawk fish
Algae blenny
Two firefish
Six line wrasse
Bicolor dottyback

All fish are juveniles and the clowns were pretty small.

The only recent change has been the addition of the wav powerheads and I am runny them really high almost all day with a Tom of flow throughout the tank.

Is it possible that they got sucked in at night? I find it hard to believe since they both died. One clown was so chewed up there was practically nothing left of him and I couldn't even get him out of the tank.

Here's the other one.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i45/ssleevin/27B1EB16-D1DD-40E9-B14B-48CFC330C134_zpst0y30vcr.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/user/ssleevin/media/27B1EB16-D1DD-40E9-B14B-48CFC330C134_zpst0y30vcr.jpg.html)

[Fish Friend]

"Murder!!!!"
*hug* I am so sorry about your clowns :(
Well..those little nips in it's fins would be out of context if the wave-maker is behind this. Scavengers had free pickings, so those could look like nipped fins.

Flame hawk might have been the one.
Maroon clowns in anemones might be compatible but small clowns (even in anemones) gets provoked and assaulted.

Hippo tang might have been part of the battle, they will often rub themselves against other fish to spear them with their small pointy bits - but I searched through the internet and the statistic of what others reported were mostly towards the flame hawk.

It could have decided that their competition got out of control and probably, given the condition of the remaining evidence, most of your aquaria feed on the clowns after the act.

[Ssteve]

That's odd since they are both dead in one afternoon. I would think that if it was the flamehawk I would have seen some aggression from him towards any other fish in the tank and that's not the case. I mean he basically just purches on his preferred green slimer on the other side of the tank.

[CrayolaViolence]

Maybe they both just succumbed to the same thing, that wasn't necessarily another fish, rather disease or parasite. What you have left, looks to me like carcasses that were fed on by a clean up crew such as snails, crabs, and shrimp. They always seem to go for the gut first. Mostly because that's where the most nutritious part of the animal is.

[Fish Friend]

That is rather informative, perhaps they did just get scavanged.

[Pericyte]

How big is your tank? Tangs can become aggressive in small tanks. I would be surprised if the hawk fish did it, i would expect to see agression towards the blenny first, unless your clowns were under an inch.

All that aside, i Think your 6 line is the most likely culprit. Mine is huge and I have seen him go after my clowns (who are the same size as him) while they are in their anemone. Keep an eye on him.

Also, any chance there is a hitchhiker in your tank?

[Ssteve]

The clowns were small but the six line is also very very small. I purchased all my fish except the hawkfish as small as I could possibly get them.

My tank is a 120 currently.

[ThRoewer]

What was the last addition and how long ago?

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[Ssteve]

Six line about 8 weeks ago

[Grimreaperz]

It could have been a combination of several factors....

I'm a newbie but from everything I have been reading here is what I have picked out....

You reduced feedings.
Introduced some fish that may not be compatible with eachother....regardless of size.
If one encroached on another's territory. (Clowns usually travel in pairs) they are going to fight it out....sometimes to the death.

Do you QT or do any type of QT Process prior to adding fish into the DT?

I think it's either a battle for territory/food as the feed they were used to was no longer being offered...so they need to get it else where...this can cause aggression....

And if no QT is done it can't be certain they didn't just die to a parasite and got scavenged...

But to pinpoint exactly what was the cause maybe be impossible but this is what I have seen from the information provided as possibilities...

I am truly sorry for your loss!!!
I wish you all the best in finding the culprit(s)

Remember a lot of fish are opportunistic feeders/fighters....

They see a wounded animal and instinct is often to attack....either because they are hungry or they want to reduce competition...the reasoning I'm not to sure but it happens not only in saltwater but in all bodies of water...this is often why wounded fish are used as bait by fisherman...so one fish could have attacked it...wounding it and from there others saw blood or a wounded fish and proceeded to attack as well...once the one clown is dead the other is easy pickings....

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[ThRoewer]

You said you came home and found them dead, and one almost fully eaten up.
How long where you gone?
When did you see them the last time alive?

Generally it is strange that both were killed around the same time. That would fit a disease better than aggression.
With clownfish Brooklynella is usually the first suspect.

Aggression is usually rather gradual. Generally you would see at first shredded fins and other evidence of fighting. Particularly if the last addition is that long ago. You should have seen at least some aggressive behavior before.
Also, that dead fish in the picture doesn't look like as it was in any fight.
A predator is also rather unlikely since both clownfish seem to have died around the same time.


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[Ssteve]

You said you came home and found them dead, and one almost fully eaten up.
How long where you gone?
When did you see them the last time alive?

Generally it is strange that both were killed around the same time. That would fit a disease better than aggression.
With clownfish Brooklynella is usually the first suspect.

Aggression is usually rather gradual. Generally you would see at first shredded fins and other evidence of fighting. Particularly if the last addition is that long ago. You should have seen at least some aggressive behavior before.
Also, that dead fish in the picture doesn't look like as it was in any fight.
A predator is also rather unlikely since both clownfish seem to have died around the same time.


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Thats kind of what I was thinking. It was exactly 12 hrs between the time I saw them last and when I discovered them dead. There has never been any aggression in my tank except for the first couple hours the six line went in the tank the dottyback harassed him but not relentlessly and it was completely squashed after that.

I am thinking disease or a powerhead accident. I am running the neptune wav's at 100%(4000gph) for brief periods during the day and normally the clowns would tuck into their corner when the flow got really turbulent.

[ca1ore]

It is entirely possible the pumps got them, particularly if the fish were small and the powerheads large. Also keep in mind that a dead fish can get significantly deconstructed by your CUC in even 12 hours.

Some folks will tell you that a healthy fish cannot be lost to a powerhead, but they certainly can. I've watched a small anthias get blended by my MP60. On another occasion I noticed a strip of 'meat' stuck in the grate of the pump. Took me a while to work out that it was my 3 yr old leopard wrasse. Major bummer.

[jcjrogers]

Do you have an anemone? If so, I wonder if disease or something caused them to lose slime, and the anemone killed them. Possibly the anemone didn't try to eat them or some other fish pulled them out of the anemone while they were struggling. It might not be likely but is plausible since both clowns died and both would visit the anemone.

[Fish Friend]

The fin on it's back still looks nipped to me and the flame hawk looks to.have a really pointy mouth as well. Clowns show their belly when they surrender and again, if you think that the wave-maker perhaps is too hard for some of your livestock - that might ofc. be the problem.

Since the processing of the carcasses had progressed in two different stages, they probably did not die at the same time.

- but I am sorry either way and hope you have a period of peaceful hobbying after that unfortunate discovery.

[ThRoewer]

I don't know how small the clownfish were, but I lost 4 orchid dottybacks to the WAV pumps. The dottybacks like to explore the inside of the pumps when they are not running, and when they are still inside when the pumps come back on the result is dottyback sashimi
But to my fish it happened one by one over a couple of weeks.

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[zooman72]

The fin on it's back still looks nipped to me and the flame hawk looks to.have a really pointy mouth as well. Clowns show their belly when they surrender and again, if you think that the wave-maker perhaps is too hard for some of your livestock - that might ofc. be the problem.

Since the processing of the carcasses had progressed in two different stages, they probably did not die at the same time.

:facepalm:


Anywho, not sure an infection would take 3 months, but possible. I am surprised no one has questioned the inclusion of the bicolor dottyback into your collection - they are capable of being quite territorial (even more so if still maturing), and are quite capable of killing fish bigger than them. Your clown looked quite small too, and I agree with what others have already stated - the clean-up crew could have easily caused the damage evident in the photo...

[ThRoewer]

They died at the most a couple of hours apart. But that one was almost completely eaten up while mostly intact can have other causes.

As for the dottyback - they usually don't hold back for some months and then go all of the sudden berserk. Due to their relatively small size they usually wage a war of attrition and rarely go for a direct kill. I have had a good number of dottybacks, and they always rather harassed other fish to death than killed them in a direct attack.
BTW, Sixlines operate very similar. Their trademark is to go for the opponent's eyes.
Still one single fish successfully attacking a pair of clownfish that stay together is rather rare. I've seen dottybacks and tangs trying it, but usually it was the attacker that got beaten up by the clownfish.

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[Ssteve]

Should be interesting to see what happens when I add new clowns. I am going to start with a little larger set this time and I will put them in a acclimation box for a couple days and see if a particular fish is aggressive with them.

[zooman72]

As for the dottyback - they usually don't hold back for some months and then go all of the sudden berserk. Due to their relatively small size they usually wage a war of attrition and rarely go for a direct kill. I have had a good number of dottybacks, and they always rather harassed other fish to death than killed them in a direct attack.
BTW, Sixlines operate very similar. Their trademark is to go for the opponent's eyes.
Still one single fish successfully attacking a pair of clownfish that stay together is rather rare. I've seen dottybacks and tangs trying it, but usually it was the attacker that got beaten up by the clownfish.

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I have seen a purple dottyback (P. porphyrea) stalk and kill a pair of Talbot's damsels (C. talboti) over the course of 2 weeks or so, with fins showing evidence of damage, but little else until they were killed within a day of each other - and the purple dottyback is not typically considered one of the "problematic" species. It did however change behavior quite rapidly after setting up a territory and settling in (being introduced after the damsels had been in the tank for a while).

Bicolor or royal dottybacks (P. paccagnellae) are often considered one of the most aggressive dottybacks, and have been known to kill fish larger than them. Now, I do find it odd that all of the fish in question are reported to have been together for some time without issue, and that only the two clowns perished within a short time of one another - this would also be odd for one of the typical afflictions known to affect clownfishes and others. However, dottybacks can become quite aggressive over time if they are maturing and expanding their territory.

Should be interesting to see what happens when I add new clowns. I am going to start with a little larger set this time and I will put them in a acclimation box for a couple days and see if a particular fish is aggressive with them.

The best bet would be to use a larger pair this time around, but by all means, make sure you quarantine them, and the acclimation box is often my go-to introduction tool at least for smaller fishes) as well...:thumbsup:

[Fish Friend]

I notice that if you summon up all the suggestions and thoughts here, it does not matter if it was an increase in aggression because of either general growth&competition or the cut-back in food you've mentioned, or if it was the mechanics of the tank.

Get bigger, stronger clowns and they should be able to handle the tribulations better the next time.

- I was totally surprised when I saw two 5yr old normal (true or false, I don't recall) clowns at my LFS, I was unaware of how small these clowns are, because of a fully grown polymnus I had seen earlier on. Saddlebacks is a good medium size & aggression fish, colours range from orange/coffee types to black&white types with less or more yellow.

In all regards, enjoy and good luck :)

[ThRoewer]

... Saddlebacks is a good medium size & aggression fish, ...

Then you've never seen a fully grown 5" A. polymnus! I have, and those were large enough to scare large Angelfish of the typical size you find in stores...