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barrysalt
12/20/2016, 02:27 PM
Although I do water changes on my 180 reef every 4 weeks --25 gal--I also do a 300 g water change on each of my 1500 gal FOWLR tanks every 4 weeks. Exhausting! and expensive! On fish only tanks, what do you folks out there think is necessary or required on these larger tanks? What volume, what frequency do you recommend?

worm5406
12/20/2016, 03:05 PM
Have you ever thought about continuous water changes instead?

A dual head peristolic pump set to put in and replace at the same time?

m0nkie
12/20/2016, 03:09 PM
I use Genesis renew/storm to do automatic water change and top off on my 560gal.

barrysalt
12/22/2016, 12:42 PM
I'd like to consider automatic water changes, as you both suggested, but where do I find the information on how this is accomplished? If new water goes in at the same time as old water is pumped out, wouldn't the newest water get pumped out as well? How is that avoided? Thanks for whatever info you can send my way!

worm5406
12/22/2016, 01:01 PM
Well lets put it this way. Take out near the start of the sump, put back in at the end of the sump. Always getting the water. While mixing will result in, like it says 'mixed', you would have to do 100% water change to not get mixed water in a normal water change anyway.

I will post later on this, but search these forums for water change and see what you find.

m0nkie
12/22/2016, 03:21 PM
I'd like to consider automatic water changes, as you both suggested, but where do I find the information on how this is accomplished? If new water goes in at the same time as old water is pumped out, wouldn't the newest water get pumped out as well? How is that avoided? Thanks for whatever info you can send my way!

The genesis system comes with two 1 gallon bucket. It would drain out 1 gallon, store inside the bucket. Then dump that out. At the same time, the other bucket will store a gallon of new water, and replenish the sump. I put the intake and output far away from each other. Their auto top off system is connected with the auto water change system so it will not top off when sump water level drops.

I guess if you do multiple small WC a day, you technically lose a little bit of the new water mix. I don't think it will make any difference

d-man
12/22/2016, 06:36 PM
OP, what are the bio loads of the tanks? That's more the determining fact than anything.

If the bio loads are minimal and filtration is maxed then water changes can be minimal for sure.

I have an 860 mixed reef with 200g sump. My bioload is medium ata moment. Maybe 40 fish, but only a few large 4-6" ones. Rest are wrasses and smaller fish .I have a BK300 ext, chaeto, and rock in sump. I use a CaRx for mineral replacement. I water change maybe 100-125g every 4-5 weeks or so. My parameters are 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and 20ppm nitrate. Consistantly

worm5406
12/22/2016, 07:13 PM
A few others have chimed in as well, good.

Here is a thread talks a little bit about what to get:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2607079&highlight=stenner

I just feel like a continual change keeps parameters in line and no spikes at all.

Lets let some other people chime in here as well.

trivan
12/22/2016, 07:45 PM
Doesn't get much attention on here but have you looked at a denitrifying reactor. No water changes needed. People have had very good success with it, there is a DIY thread as well. I set one up and do very minimal water changes on my 120 gal. (Approximately 170 total volume) just to get trace elements back in and old habits die hard.

Zatoichi
12/23/2016, 12:43 AM
I would just like to commend you on your epically large tank

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barrysalt
12/23/2016, 12:47 PM
Thanks for all the input. Bioload is modest--35 fish in each tank, mostly med to large, a few smaller anthias, a couple xlarge sailfin tangs. Again, no corals! FWLR ONLY. Two tanks, each feeding into a single very large sump. My phosphate readings have been very high (8-10 on hi-read meter)--have tried many additives, mostly from Brightwell, to no avail. I'm shrugging this off, since fish have been healthy, eating well for over a year now. BUT...
still trying to get a handle on 1. How often do you recommend a water change, and 2.is a 20% water change sufficient? I currently do this every 4 weeks.

m0nkie
12/23/2016, 02:16 PM
What is the goal for increasing WC?

for FOWLR, I don't think WC is that important. Fish can live with some nitrate and phosphate.

cheapest way to reduce nitrate IMO is ceramic rocks. Marine Pure blocks work well. Siporax works well. I have used both in my tanks. All my tanks, I have trouble detecting nitrate. and I feed frozen food like crazy..

another route is to build an algae scrubber. a little more expensive.

for Phosphate, some high quality GFO from BRS works well. use x2 the recommended dosage and change them out every week. I do this until phosphate is within range, then reduce dosage.

To answer your question. I personality think 10%-20% a month is more than enough for FOWLR. I have been lazy and skipped doing WC for 6-7 months.. it's expensive to do WC in large tanks. I think you should first address why you want to increase WC.

barrysalt
01/02/2017, 10:06 AM
Good feedback: Thanks...but I'm not looking to increase water changes. I'd like to lessen the frequency, that's why I'm trolling for feedback from you out there as to your water change cycles on very large tanks. I'm thinking that if I reduced from every 4 weeks (@20%) to every 6 weeks with the modest bioload I have, that would work without any negative effects of livestock. Time and expenses would also lessen.

dave.m
01/02/2017, 10:14 AM
One of the wiser things that Reef Central ever did was to take on the hosting of Reefkeeping Magazine articles. They are a treasure trove of information.
You can use Google to search for topics of interest.

Here is a good one (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/) in that it helps you get a handle on the concepts of partial water changes and how they affect your various key parameters.

Dave.M

worm5406
01/02/2017, 10:20 AM
Well instead of playing catchup every 4 weeks, a continual change could be set to extend the frequency to a longer time frame.

Hold your breath for a minute. vs Take half breath every 45 seconds vs take quarter breath ......

The longer the water is in the tank the quicker it becomes soiled and nutrients build up. A water change of 20% every 4 weeks is really catchup always staying ahead of the curve. Thus time and expenses would also lessen.

I am going to have a 200g ASW water storage container full, along with a 200g rodi/topoff. I am going to set it up so that I do a 66g weekly water change across 665 gallons of DT/Sump/Fuge. That will last me three weeks before I have to mix up more.

While your volume is much higher a change in the frequency should adjust your percentage needed doing.

anthonys51
01/02/2017, 11:18 AM
just to chime in here, i was wondering the same thing too. if your goal is simple keep nutrients in line and you have other means of doing that is every 6 months ok to replenish trace elements if you use a calcium reactor. i have about 600 plus gallons and i set up an old 57 tank with about 9 inches sand and put macro algae and mangroves in it. i was hoping that would be enough to keep nutrients down plus a Refugium in my sump.

dave.m
01/02/2017, 02:37 PM
is every 6 months ok to replenish trace elements if you use a calcium reactor.
No. Nutrient use depends entirely on the specific type, number and size of the inhabitants in your system and how they use those nutrients. You should never think you can stop testing water parameters weekly (at least) or just plug in any arbitrary quantity of nutrients for resupply on a set schedule. Nature doesn't work that way. Sorry, but if that is too much trouble for you I think you may be in the wrong hobby.

Dave.M

ca1ore
01/02/2017, 03:34 PM
I haven't kept a large FOWLR in many years, but when I did I never found large water changes necessary. Kept them lit on the low side, so pest algae wasn't really a problem. What problem are you trying to address with such large water change? Also you're doing more WC on the FOWLR than the reef? Seems counterintuitive to me.

ca1ore
01/02/2017, 03:39 PM
just to chime in here, i was wondering the same thing too. if your goal is simple keep nutrients in line and you have other means of doing that is every 6 months ok to replenish trace elements if you use a calcium reactor. i have about 600 plus gallons and i set up an old 57 tank with about 9 inches sand and put macro algae and mangroves in it. i was hoping that would be enough to keep nutrients down plus a Refugium in my sump.

I'm approaching 600 system gallons as well, and my every other week 40 gallon water change begins to seem somewhat paltry. No data to support my opinion, but I do think the use of a calcium reactor is an elegant way to replenish elements in about the same ratios that they are being taken up by growing corals. Part of what has driven my total volume up is the addition of a large refugium (a 120XH) so I'm hopeful for greater stability overall.

anthonys51
01/02/2017, 03:46 PM
No. Nutrient use depends entirely on the specific type, number and size of the inhabitants in your system and how they use those nutrients. You should never think you can stop testing water parameters weekly (at least) or just plug in any arbitrary quantity of nutrients for resupply on a set schedule. Nature doesn't work that way. Sorry, but if that is too much trouble for you I think you may be in the wrong hobby.

Dave.M

your a little rude dave
too much trouble, i wouldnt have bought 4 tanks totally over 600 gallons if i was too lazy to do a water change. dont think i am worried about the trouble of a water change. since this is my first really big system over 600 gallons. i was wondering if the dsb tank 57 gallons 9 inches deep. think thats like 9 football fields of surface area plus 100 gallon just refugium would be enough. no duh it all depends on what and how much you keep. just looking for people who have big systems and how they do it.

anthonys51
01/02/2017, 03:54 PM
I'm approaching 600 system gallons as well, and my every other week 40 gallon water change begins to seem somewhat paltry. No data to support my opinion, but I do think the use of a calcium reactor is an elegant way to replenish elements in about the same ratios that they are being taken up by growing corals. Part of what has driven my total volume up is the addition of a large refugium (a 120XH) so I'm hopeful for greater stability overall.

yes i wanted to see that info on this subject too. i did add my old tank to my new system. kind of neglected the tank a little while building the bigger system. just so much work, more than i though. well when i added the 57 to the 550 gallon system with all the fish and corals, tested for nitrates 2 days later it was 60ppm. added the dsb next day and macro algae, even bought more fish 3 weeks later it is down to 20. haven't tested in 3 days might be lower. didnt do a water change that whole time. i do know that 9 inches of sand over 3 feet is a lot of surface area, so maybe was hopeing someone else has a system like this and can give advice. i am too new into this to draw any conclusion

dave.m
01/02/2017, 04:42 PM
your a little rude dave
Not intended to be rude, but to point out the need for constant testing and evaluation. I am trying to convey the need to stay on top of your system so that you don't pour thousands of dollars into it and then have it slowly turn to mush. That would be like buying a Lamborghini and then not taking it in for servicing until it starts to make unhealthy noises.

Dave.M

anthonys51
01/02/2017, 05:08 PM
Well maybe I read it wrong. No I test alk once a week nitrates and phosphates biweekly calcium monthly. Test are cheap corals not do cheap


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worm5406
01/02/2017, 10:05 PM
The OP stated:

Although I do water changes on my 180 reef every 4 weeks --25 gal--I also do a 300 g water change on each of my 1500 gal FOWLR tanks every 4 weeks. Exhausting! and expensive! On fish only tanks, what do you folks out there think is necessary or required on these larger tanks? What volume, what frequency do you recommend?

So he is looking to reduce the headache and expense on the FOWLR tanks. He is doing 20%(300g) a month for them.

I would agree depending on certain parameters to reduce them since he is not worried about them as much as, I assume, his reef tank.

But to what level? 100g a month instead?

barrysalt
01/04/2017, 10:20 AM
Got a lot of feedback, most of which seemed to get off track. Again, straightforward info, and a question:
I take care of two- 1500 gal tanks.
FOWLR--no corals!
I do a 300 gal water change on each, once every 4 weeks.
I'd like to consider the same amount of water change, but extend out to every 6 weeks.
My phosphates are high, but have been for over a year with no algae problems.
Fish are all healthy, eating well, very little loss except for natural causes.

So here is the question: Given the above, does anyone out there have fact-based reasoning to dissuade me from water changes every 6 weeks vs. 4 weeks? That's it! thanks...

anthonys51
01/04/2017, 10:53 AM
Yes you can phosphates don't matter to fish. As long as your nitrates stay in line your good


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worm5406
01/04/2017, 09:51 PM
I agree. You are familiar enough to testing the water, so you would know how the tank looks overall. It would be fine. I am curious on how far out you could go. Maybe 8 weeks?

anthonys51
01/05/2017, 06:12 AM
Yes unfortunately every tank is different. There is no way anyone can tell you this answer as a fact. It will just be a guess. It's trial and error. But luckily will fish only tank there is more room for error than a reef. Good luck


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anthonys51
01/05/2017, 06:24 AM
Yes unfortunately every tank is different. There is no way anyone can tell you this answer as a fact. It will just be a guess. It's trial and error. But luckily will fish only tank there is more room for error than a reef. Good luck


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cleanmyaquarium
01/05/2017, 06:51 AM
Got a lot of feedback, most of which seemed to get off track. Again, straightforward info, and a question:
I take care of two- 1500 gal tanks.
FOWLR--no corals!
I do a 300 gal water change on each, once every 4 weeks.
I'd like to consider the same amount of water change, but extend out to every 6 weeks.
My phosphates are high, but have been for over a year with no algae problems.
Fish are all healthy, eating well, very little loss except for natural causes.

So here is the question: Given the above, does anyone out there have fact-based reasoning to dissuade me from water changes every 6 weeks vs. 4 weeks? That's it! thanks...
Build a sulfur denitrator and add a gfo reactor and you can reduce h2o changes to 8 weeks....probably even 12 weeks. In 1 year your savings on salt will pay for the new equipment. Pm me if you want to talk about how to do it.
Thanks for all the input. Bioload is modest--35 fish in each tank, mostly med to large, a few smaller anthias, a couple xlarge sailfin tangs. Again, no corals! FWLR ONLY. Two tanks, each feeding into a single very large sump. My phosphate readings have been very high (8-10 on hi-read meter)--have tried many additives, mostly from Brightwell, to no avail. I'm shrugging this off, since fish have been healthy, eating well for over a year now. BUT...
still trying to get a handle on 1. How often do you recommend a water change, and 2.is a 20% water change sufficient? I currently do this every 4 weeks.


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barrysalt
01/05/2017, 09:27 AM
A sulfur denitrator sounds interesting. I have used (over 4 months) GFO, and several of Brightwell's phosphate-removing chems, including a reactor chock full of their "balls" to remove PO4--all to no avail. But I'll listen to any reasonable way to keep tanks healthy and reduce frequency of h2o changes. Thanks...Barry

m0nkie
01/05/2017, 05:37 PM
I used the premium GFO from BRS when I had high phosphate.. had to switch them out every single week. Felt like a huge waste but it got the job done. not cheap buying all those GFO

McPuff
01/06/2017, 07:57 AM
I would do much of what has been suggested by the other posters.

Use the Marine Pure blocks to reduce nitrates. I've said it many times, these things work VERY well in my experience. And I see NO negative effects as some fear (i.e., aluminum).

Use a large GFO reactor to remove phosphate... high capacity is your best bet.

Add chaetomorpha and/or dragon's breath to the refugium (add a refugium?). This will provide a natural sink and means to export nutrients.

Finally, it seems that an auto water change system such as Genesis, would be ideal. You'll stabilize the water chemistry and reduce the headaches associated with such huge water changes.