Coral Growth Problems

[andrewdingemans]

Hello all,

Long time lurcher, first time poster.:wave:

I have had my current system since Jan 1, 2016. Lately been hitting a wall with what to do with the tank.

I have been going through a number of corals over the year and have yet to have a single coral last longer than 8 months.

Details as follows:

18"x20"x15" DIY glass aquarium (chamfered 8mm glass, GE Silicone 1) (approx 24 Gallons)
10 gallon sump (holds about 6 gallons when running)
Single corner overflow
4" filter sock (changed every other day)
Bubble Magus Curve A5 Skimmer (empty every 5-7 days, very dark tea colored skimmate)
Jebao DCS-3000 return pump (runs at 50% power due to only 3 foot head)
Dual return (one pointed up to front and to the right)
2-Jebao WP-10 on alternating wave flow
Consistent heated to 79F
Light is AquaticLife 78-Watt Light Aquarium Light, 14-Inch, White/Blue/Royal Blue/Red (White channel 30%, Blue and Royal Blue 60% each, 10-hour cycle, royal Blue at 2% for moon light, 6 hours complete darkness (11pm-5am))

Consistent water parameters: (testing with red sea test kits except Alk with Hanna checker)
PH: 8.3 in the morning to 8.4 in the afternoon
Salinity: 1.027
Alk: 8.6 all day, any day....
Mag:1280-1300
Calc: 440-450
Phosphate: 0.02 or 0.00 (sometimes to tell difference)
Nitrate:5-10ppm (10 ppm usually by the end of week 2 before water change)
Nitrite: 0ppm
Ammonia: 0ppm

Dosing: (all red sea products)
NO3:P04X: 3ml per day
Reef Energy A and B: 2ml each per day
Reef Foundation A (Calc, Stront, Barium) :
Reef Foundation B (Alk) :
Reef Foundation C (Mag) :
Reef Colors A, B, C, and D: 2ml each per day

Also feed 1/4 tsp of reef frenzy for my livestock
Feed 9ml Coral Snow each day for corals
Every 15-20 days the tank gets 5ml BioPronto (since I thought the tank may have been lacking live bacteria)

Livestock/Inverts:
1-Orange hermit crab (almost 8 months old)
1-Bumble Bee snail
3-1/2" Astrae snails
2-1.5" Astrae snails
1-Engineer Goby (almost 3 months old. eats consistently every day and is always digging new tunnels

Corals:
Acro's all die within 2 weeks (I've had a pretty penny, 2 different birds nest)
Hammers tend to last about a month.
Duncans stay closed and develop large clear bubbles on the skeleton and die off within a month or 2
Colonies of Zoas last in range of 3-6 months
Acans tend to last about 6-8 months (current orange and green ones I have are almost 7 months old and skeletons are starting to show)
Leather coral seems un affected
Xenia lasts about 2-3 months at best and dies off
Bubble coral was about 2" diameter when introduced to tank about 4 months ago. Last month has shrunk to 1" or under and constantly moving around.
Mushrooms survive, but stay closed up most of the time

30% water changes every 2 weeks with Red Sea Coral Pro Salt, mixed for an hour, heated and tested to 1.027 prior to change.

10 lbs carib sea Fiji Pink substrate and 10lbs of live rock. No signs of micro fauna at all however.

6 stage RODI testing 2 TDS prior to DI and 0 TDS after. Buckets test 0 TDS and no algae problems in tank

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am at a loss for what to do moving forward. Currently working within my financial means as I have a larger 80-gallon high tech planted tank (have had for over 8 years)

Thanks,
Andrew

[heathlindner25]

Your salinity is a tad high but nothing is standing out to me, can I see some pictures?
I naturally want to go toward the silicone or some sort of toxin.

[Patrick.S]

I would think about running some poly filter for a while and try to see if it changes color. It would tell you if you somehow picked up a copper problem.

[Sawen]

Nothing is standing out to me either.

How large is your leather? Do you run carbon? Chemical warfare?

[outssider]

If the crab and snails are doing good, I doubt it's a metal contamination problem

[andrewdingemans]

Your salinity is a tad high but nothing is standing out to me, can I see some pictures?
I naturally want to go toward the silicone or some sort of toxin.

Leather
http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh612/Andrew_Dingemans/20170112_0640161_zpsqih1ykxp.jpg

Mushrooms
http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh612/Andrew_Dingemans/20170112_0640131_zpsfbtylyvk.jpg

From Left: Octospawn (completely receded now but no tissue decay etc yet), Large plug has some xenia but they are only a few millimeters tall, zoas I have had from day 1 a year ago stay extended like that all day and night, pinapple coral died over the holidays, right of that are some neon green colored zoas that have completely lost their color and stay closed, but have not died
http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh612/Andrew_Dingemans/20170112_0640061_zpstcxb9wxb.jpg

Paly used to open but last month or so it stays closed like this
http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh612/Andrew_Dingemans/20170112_0640011_zpsmhq8e2w7.jpg

Acans sort of swell at night after feeding coral snow, but shrivel up like in the pic for the other 85-90% of the time. Slight receeding on a few of them.
http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh612/Andrew_Dingemans/20170112_0639581_zpskq9pxah8.jpg

FTS
http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh612/Andrew_Dingemans/20170112_0639511_zpshby3hhd6.jpg

I would think about running some poly filter for a while and try to see if it changes color. It would tell you if you somehow picked up a copper problem.

I will order a poly filter and try it. I typically don't like using it because it is a huge nutrient sink. I have used it in the first month of reefing and it only ever turned brown.

Nothing is standing out to me either.

How large is your leather? Do you run carbon? Chemical warfare?

Used to run carbon but it didn't seem to do anything compared to when I run without it. Maybe I'll add a bag back. is it worth putting in some chemi-pure instead or in addition?

Leather is about 2" tall in the above picture and grows to about 4" under peak light in the mid afternoon.

If the crab and snails are doing good, I doubt it's a metal contamination problem

Yea I am in agreeance with that. I have tested for copper and comes up as 0ppm.

Thanks all for the help so far. Hoping all the brilliant minds here can help steer me. Been doing a bit of reading about chemical warfare and assume maybe the acros i put in are too close to the leather? The spot I have the leather is the only one that isn't too much flow. If I reduce flow from the pump or powerheads, detritus starts to settle and build up and I get bits of algae growth on the substrate (think my flow is balanced for the way it is laid out (about 2-3" of space from rockwork to glass)

[kevin21]

Tough call. Could be one of the things you are dosing just doesn't get along? I would also stop dosing BioPronto. No need to add bacteria anymore. Doubt that is the issue though. I would double check that nothing is getting into the tank without you knowing. Cleaning products such as windex or along those lines are poisons to the tank. Never know if something could be getting in that you just haven't thought of. Best of luck

[andrewdingemans]

Tough call. Could be one of the things you are dosing just doesn't get along? I would also stop dosing BioPronto. No need to add bacteria anymore. Doubt that is the issue though. I would double check that nothing is getting into the tank without you knowing. Cleaning products such as windex or along those lines are poisons to the tank. Never know if something could be getting in that you just haven't thought of. Best of luck

Hey Kevin,

Have always wondered if the biopronto was doing good or harm but afraid to change any dosing regiment I have been following.

Nothing is getting in for sure. We are very "green" in our house and don't use any chemicals. The tank is also covered with 8mm glass during the day due to our cat not being afraid of water. Nothing else that could get in etc is close by so alas still stumped LOL:headwalls:

I also contacted Redsea a few months ago and asked about conflict of dosing etc and followed their reccomendation with time between food, and reef foundations and NO3:P04X etc with no changes whether good or bad. Went through a 2 week period where I was working at home so tested the tank 3 times a day for EVERYTHING. big waste of time, however was able to see the tank was surprisingly stable with parameters and I was able to memorize how to do all the tests.

[75mixedreef]

It almost sounds like low nutrients, try going without dosing the NOPOX for a while and see if you can get a measureable phosphate level. You could also add another fish.

It seems like you are adding a bunch of chemicals, what is your reason for adding the reef energy and reef colors? I would stop dosing everything and let your tank get back to basics a bit more. Water changes alone should be enough to maintain a system that small if you stay on top of them. Just add a little more live rock for more filtering and you should be fine. Its not like you have a bunch of growing corals that are sucking up the minerals so there should be no need to dose. Monitor your parameters while not dosing (except food) for a week or two and see it there is any noticeable difference in your levels. You might be adding a bunch of trace elements that are adding up to be too toxic.

Also since you mentioned the tank being covered, is it getting enough O2? You might have it too sealed off. If your sump is open at all then it is not an issue, but if you are boxing it in to keep the cat out then there might be a gas exchange issue.

[kevin21]

I don't see any problem with stopping the biopronto. It will not hurt anything in the tank when you stop dosing it. Your tank is mature enough where it does not need the extra bacteria. I saw your tank is around 24 gallons. I have a 28g. Just to give an example of what has been working for me. Although my tank is no where near perfect. I do weekly 5g water changes using reef crystals. Normally this keeps my levels where they need to be. If not, I always have kent tech m, calcium, and alk buffer just in case I need a small adjustment. Normally the only thing I need is to supplement calcium a bit. Normally in the middle of the week before my next water change. I have nopox on hand, but only dose that every other day, and only 2ml per day. It is doing a great job keeping my nitrates around 5. I feed half a cube of mysis, brine, or a squid/plankton mix once per day. I have a kessil a-150 sky blue over the tank. My softies grow great and my LPS do well. Pretty simple the way I am running things. No crazy dosing or anything. Sometimes I worry about all the different products that are sold in the LFS and online. You never know what you could be pouring into the tank sometimes, no matter what the label says.

[andrewdingemans]

I don't see any problem with stopping the biopronto. It will not hurt anything in the tank when you stop dosing it. Your tank is mature enough where it does not need the extra bacteria. I saw your tank is around 24 gallons. I have a 28g. Just to give an example of what has been working for me. Although my tank is no where near perfect. I do weekly 5g water changes using reef crystals. Normally this keeps my levels where they need to be. If not, I always have kent tech m, calcium, and alk buffer just in case I need a small adjustment. Normally the only thing I need is to supplement calcium a bit. Normally in the middle of the week before my next water change. I have nopox on hand, but only dose that every other day, and only 2ml per day. It is doing a great job keeping my nitrates around 5. I feed half a cube of mysis, brine, or a squid/plankton mix once per day. I have a kessil a-150 sky blue over the tank. My softies grow great and my LPS do well. Pretty simple the way I am running things. No crazy dosing or anything. Sometimes I worry about all the different products that are sold in the LFS and online. You never know what you could be pouring into the tank sometimes, no matter what the label says.

That is very true with the dosing. I have contemplated to stop dosing everything and see what happens but am afraid things will decline too fast and the tank will crash. I do automatic dosing of Alk, Calc and Mag throughout the day to keep things bang on level. They are being used up one way or another but don't know where it is going since there is no coral growth or coraline algae. The Coral color food is also on an auto doser at 5 min apart for each starting at midnight.

I've contemplated changing my light but I was way over my budget with the light. Thinking of building a DIY flourescent fixture as someone said the light I have is mediocre (thing cost me over $500 USD shipped at the time) and I would get better results with a flourescent fixture.:confused:

[andrewdingemans]

It almost sounds like low nutrients, try going without dosing the NOPOX for a while and see if you can get a measureable phosphate level. You could also add another fish.

It seems like you are adding a bunch of chemicals, what is your reason for adding the reef energy and reef colors? I would stop dosing everything and let your tank get back to basics a bit more. Water changes alone should be enough to maintain a system that small if you stay on top of them. Just add a little more live rock for more filtering and you should be fine. Its not like you have a bunch of growing corals that are sucking up the minerals so there should be no need to dose. Monitor your parameters while not dosing (except food) for a week or two and see it there is any noticeable difference in your levels. You might be adding a bunch of trace elements that are adding up to be too toxic.

Also since you mentioned the tank being covered, is it getting enough O2? You might have it too sealed off. If your sump is open at all then it is not an issue, but if you are boxing it in to keep the cat out then there might be a gas exchange issue.

Assuming this much where I should start from square one and stop dosing everything except the fish food. Reef energy and colors was to be food for the corals (however they havent really been doing much maybe other than keeping a few of the longer lasting ones alive)

I test for a few of the trace elements are all within or below what is reccommended but maybe the results could be off a tad and that tad is toxic.

The sump is uncovered in a cabinet and has 2 120mm fans bringing in air from the side and it exhausts out the front door. I go through 5 gallons in my ATO every 5-6 days so I am assuming gas exchange is ok???

[kevin21]

I say this should be your game plan. I would do a 10g water change. I would not feed anything other than your goby. Stop feeding the corals. If they are unhealthy, chances are they are not eating anything you are putting in the tank for them. Most don't even feed their coral. For a 24g tank, I would check the buy/sell forum on reefcentral. You can get a very efficient kessil a150w for $100. Could go with the a160 but it will be a little more expensive.

The water change is almost 50%. This would help clear out some of whatever could be causing the problem. Eliminate all of the dosing and still to weekly water changes for now. Though you should continue to dose alk/mag/cal as needed to maintain your levels there.

This should hopefully simplify your system a bit, which could possibly help things and show you what might of been the problem. It could not hurt to try this, as corals obviously aren't doing well with the current process.

[75mixedreef]

Assuming this much where I should start from square one and stop dosing everything except the fish food. Reef energy and colors was to be food for the corals (however they havent really been doing much maybe other than keeping a few of the longer lasting ones alive)

I test for a few of the trace elements are all within or below what is reccommended but maybe the results could be off a tad and that tad is toxic.

The sump is uncovered in a cabinet and has 2 120mm fans bringing in air from the side and it exhausts out the front door. I go through 5 gallons in my ATO every 5-6 days so I am assuming gas exchange is ok???

Yeah, your air exchange is fine. You are using the Red Sea salt and that should be just fine with trace elements and other parameters. I just don't see what good the things you are dosing are doing for you. From what I have learned, the colors dosing is intended for when your corals are not the brightest because they have depleted trace elements. If dull colors is not your problem then I would not add that to your system.

I have no idea where you Alk and Ca is going to if your corals are not taking it in. How much are you dosing a day? I have never used the Red Sea Alk Mag and Ca so I'm not sure how the dosage compares to 2 part or B-ionic, but maybe you just aren't adding as much as you think you are.

You have very little demand for the minerals, only one fish and a CUC. I can't see things changing drastically if you stop adding chemicals. Try doing a water change then not adding anything for a while at least and see what type of trend takes place. If you can figure out just how much your levels drop or rise in a day then you know just how much you need to add and you can track your tank's progress.

Do you test for strontium, iodine, copper or other trace elements? Those are all being added when you dose the red sea chemicals. The general rule is that you never dose what you are not testing for, or at the very least, dose much less than what the recommended dose is. These companies what you to go through as much of their product as possible so they recommend the maximum dose, if you don't test then you don't know if you are helping or hurting, or even what else might be in the mix. That's also why you ended up with their whole dosing regiment after talking to them on the phone. IMHO that was very irresponsible of them to tell you to dose all that when you do not have a healthy population of corals using the minerals added. Its like telling kids under 2 to take an adult's dosage of multivitamins every day. It's just not right.

[crawlerman]

Every time I started dossing things I don't test I've always had problems. I have best results dosing for alk, calcium and mag as needed. I add Kent marine dkh buffer to my ato. I found 5 teaspoons per 5g topoff water holds me steady. My calcium and magnesium seem to hold steady enough with biweekly water changes. Probably should dose calcium but reef crystal water changes always bring it back up to around 460 from 430 so I just roll with it. I only recently had phosphates go high and I brought it down with GFO. Others have had great success dosing all kinds of additives, but it never did anything for me but kill corals.

[andrewdingemans]

Yeah, your air exchange is fine. You are using the Red Sea salt and that should be just fine with trace elements and other parameters. I just don't see what good the things you are dosing are doing for you. From what I have learned, the colors dosing is intended for when your corals are not the brightest because they have depleted trace elements. If dull colors is not your problem then I would not add that to your system.

I have no idea where you Alk and Ca is going to if your corals are not taking it in. How much are you dosing a day? I have never used the Red Sea Alk Mag and Ca so I'm not sure how the dosage compares to 2 part or B-ionic, but maybe you just aren't adding as much as you think you are.

You have very little demand for the minerals, only one fish and a CUC. I can't see things changing drastically if you stop adding chemicals. Try doing a water change then not adding anything for a while at least and see what type of trend takes place. If you can figure out just how much your levels drop or rise in a day then you know just how much you need to add and you can track your tank's progress.

Do you test for strontium, iodine, copper or other trace elements? Those are all being added when you dose the red sea chemicals. The general rule is that you never dose what you are not testing for, or at the very least, dose much less than what the recommended dose is. These companies what you to go through as much of their product as possible so they recommend the maximum dose, if you don't test then you don't know if you are helping or hurting, or even what else might be in the mix. That's also why you ended up with their whole dosing regiment after talking to them on the phone. IMHO that was very irresponsible of them to tell you to dose all that when you do not have a healthy population of corals using the minerals added. Its like telling kids under 2 to take an adult's dosage of multivitamins every day. It's just not right.

Yea, starting today I am going to do a 10 gal water change, empty the skimmer and turn off the doser. Will then be testing all levels morning and afternoon each day (bit of a numbers freak so I graph this stuff to see fluctuations due to not having a fancy APEX to do it for me)

I totally understand where you are coming from with dosing what is not needed and what is not tested for. Only tests I do not have are strontium, boron, and silicate. I test for everything else that I am aware of.

Will have to step back and learn my tank all over again and probably start from square one with the corals as I am expecting to lose more.

In regards to adding more fish, I have certainly tried, but after losing 2 clowns a week apart due to what looks like improper quarantine at the store, they tend to last 2-3 days in my quarantine then get sluggish and eventually go. I have moved my quarantine into a spare shower so my 2 year old doesn't have to see as she was very upset when we lost the first goby in the pair.

[andrewdingemans]

Every time I started dossing things I don't test I've always had problems. I have best results dosing for alk, calcium and mag as needed. I add Kent marine dkh buffer to my ato. I found 5 teaspoons per 5g topoff water holds me steady. My calcium and magnesium seem to hold steady enough with biweekly water changes. Probably should dose calcium but reef crystal water changes always bring it back up to around 460 from 430 so I just roll with it. I only recently had phosphates go high and I brought it down with GFO. Others have had great success dosing all kinds of additives, but it never did anything for me but kill corals.

Idea of "back to basics" is what I think I am going to do. only when there is a need will it be dosed and once the need is consistent enough for the doser, then I will use.

[75mixedreef]

That sounds like a great plan. Let us know how it goes. It would also be great for other people with the same issue in the future that see this post.

[reefwiser]

How have you determined the settings on your LED fixture? Have you used a Par meter to set up the strength of your LED's lights. Your alk staying constant tells me that your corals are not growing so they are not taking up the alk and cal in the water column.
Get your lighting checked out losing acro's in two weeks is generally do to light shock.
All the extra supplements are not required now. You need to concentrate on keeping the corals alive. I would stop all the additives except cal and alk and focus on getting your corals back into a growth state.

[kevin21]

Good plan. As for a pair of clowns, I am shocked that you haven't had luck with them. It very well could be the LFS, but they are fairly hardy. How many times has this happened to you? Just wondering could this be another sign of something wrong with the water. Your goby is fine, so doubt it but you never know.

You are on the right track. You will get it sorted out. Simple can sometimes be better and I am confident this could give you an idea as to what was going wrong.

[kevin21]

This is also true. I am not familiar with the lights you have currently. Should definitely give those a hard look to see if they are sufficient.

How have you determined the settings on your LED fixture? Have you used a Par meter to set up the strength of your LED's lights. Your alk staying constant tells me that your corals are not growing so they are not taking up the alk and cal in the water column.
Get your lighting checked out losing acro's in two weeks is generally do to light shock.
All the extra supplements are not required now. You need to concentrate on keeping the corals alive. I would stop all the additives except cal and alk and focus on getting your corals back into a growth state.

[andrewdingemans]

Finding information about the lights is tricky as I assume not too many people have/use them, and for those who do, they don't talk about it. I also assume my water params for the fish in both the QT and DT are fine as the Goby has gone through QT and is still well and feeding in the DT.

Reefwiser, I haven't used a PAR meter due to high cost and lack of being able to get my hands on one to borrow. Honestly, the way I determined light at first was when I had my xenia's was to up the lights 10% per channel per week, then back off 5% when the xenia closed up, and the xenia started out in the mid-high spots of the tank. Color I visually tried to match with a 10,000k bulb I had in a 48" fixture above my planted tank.

Corals would all be temp mounted on an eshopps frag rack and moved up over the course of a week. Acro's would be over 2 weeks as they would be moved up higher. After seeing polyp extension I would assume they would be ok, and they would be mounted on the LR. Then randomly RTN or STN would start...assuming it's RTN/STN as there are never signs of pests.

[75mixedreef]

Do one thing at a time. You can reduce your lights by 5-10% to promote healing and reduce stress, but focus on the dosing for now. Lets deal with the water chemistry and things we can measure before moving on. You can always run carbon as a general tool to help, water changes and lowering the lights a little are about the same thing. The dosing is just something that I know for a fact you can do without.

Your light acclimation method is fine (I'm not an expert so I don't know for sure so take that with a grain of salt), but the problem is that you don't know if the xenia failed because the lighting was too much or if it was something else. Work on the water chemistry first and once that settles out, you can try looking at the lighting to get it a little more dialed in.