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View Full Version : Got my FMK from the NSI Program Today!


werkkrew
01/17/2017, 06:58 PM
I was one of the lucky people to get chosen to be a part of the Neptune Insiders program for the FMK (Flow Monitoring Kit). It arrived today.

Have to get it all plumbed in, really excited to get it going!

I also have to schedule a beta firmware update.

I will post any relevant updates or answer questions in this thread.

For now - pictures!

http://i.imgur.com/2pYFZGHl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/BFuPiDHl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/QFwodudl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/aFG5sbol.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/M4M6pbXl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/GbZhAm7l.jpg

werkkrew
01/19/2017, 08:49 PM
So far, this thing is blowing my mind. Granted, it is just information I could have already gotten by using a watch and buckets, but sometimes it is not that easy. If you run a manifold adjusting one valve will affect the output at the others.

I have an 80 gallon system, which is quite small. Prior to getting the FMM I had my system set up as follows:

DCS-7000 DC Return Pump (When does the COR Come out?!) - Rated for ~1850GPH at 100%

Return fed the primary returns on the tank as well as my manifold
Manifold feeding my GFO/GAC reactor and my ATS
Chiller fed with dedicated Lifegard Quiet One 1200


My target flow values are:

Tank - 700gph (10x flow through sump)
ATS - 280gph (35gph per inch of screen)
Reactor - 100gph
Chiller - anywhere between 80gph - 300gph, prefer about 150gph


My napkin math told me that this pump should be able to do that, boy was I wrong.

After hooking up all of the sensors here were my initial readings:

Tank - 200 GPH
ATS - 95 GPH
Reactor - 35 GPH

Total: 330 GPH

That's right, my pump which is rated for over 1800 GPH, due to head loss, was actually only putting out around 300 GPH.

This is really important because it explains why my ATS wasn't growing well, it explains why my phosphate removal media didn't seem effective. It explains so much about some issues I have been having.

So today I spent the day making the following changes:

Remove manifold from the return and dedicated the pump to my return
Get another DCS-7000 and replace my Lifegard pump with it (local place has them cheap) to feed my manifold and tie my chiller into the manifold


Now that I am done with all that, here are the new numbers (still not nearly as high as I want, which is something I have to figure out.)


Both DCS-7000's are running at 100%
Tank Return - 520 GPH
ATS - 180 GPH (Wide Open Valve)
Chiller - 130 GPH (Valve Throttled)
Reactor - 60 GPH (Wide Open Valve) - There is a ton of media in the reactor and it is the last item on my manifold, so I don't seem to be able to push any more through it.


Install Pictures

http://i.imgur.com/gCOjTzul.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/1nSsLw5l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/EYj6ZpDl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/EpzWhBal.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FQ9QXtvl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pasUifUl.jpg

Antipodes
01/19/2017, 10:09 PM
Wow very nice and you managed to get that done pretty quickly.
So you have 4 flow sensors installed? Are they all the same or are they all different flow ratings?

Can you program anything to take advantage of flow at this time? For instance flow through sump slows so you need to send an alarm to you phone? Or flow in does not equal flow out (Leak in sump or tank) shut of main pumps?

I guess some information you can't relay, but it certainly looks like it will be effective.

werkkrew
01/19/2017, 10:23 PM
Wow very nice and you managed to get that done pretty quickly.
So you have 4 flow sensors installed? Are they all the same or are they all different flow ratings?

Can you program anything to take advantage of flow at this time? For instance flow through sump slows so you need to send an alarm to you phone? Or flow in does not equal flow out (Leak in sump or tank) shut of main pumps?

I guess some information you can't relay, but it certainly looks like it will be effective.

Correct, I have 4. One is a 1" and 3 are 1/2". Right now I believe you could get 1/4", 1/2", 1", and 2". Each FMM supports 4 sensors and has one 24v accessory output.

They also have optical sensors and leak detection sensors you can plug into the FMM but I just wanted the flow measurement for now. When it is out for real I will probably get a 2nd FMM and use a couple optical sensors and another 1/2" flow sensor.

You can definitely set up flow rate based alarms, and while I have not tried it, I assume you can use a flow sensor just as you could any other input. So you could say "If Flow_Return < 500 Then Foo" or whatever.

By the way, I am not limited in what I can share about the product in any way, so I can answer most any question except as it relates to the sensors I do not have in my possession.

Antipodes
01/20/2017, 05:10 PM
Do you know what the flow rating on each sensor is.

werkkrew
01/20/2017, 08:43 PM
According to the documentation I have found:

Sensor Min GPH Max GPH
" 1 12
" 30 375
1" 100 1400
2" 300 3000

+/- 3% accuracy in this range

rjjr1963
01/21/2017, 11:29 AM
My return lines are 3/4". Can I use the 1" flow sensor for those? Would it be accurate?

TerenceF
01/21/2017, 03:23 PM
My return lines are 3/4". Can I use the 1" flow sensor for those? Would it be accurate?

Yes, that is actually perfect as the sensor itself will create less head loss. Just use bushings in the included unions and step it down to 3/4"

Rick's Reef
01/25/2017, 03:07 AM
Can anyone please post the detailed dimensions of the 1.5" and 1" valves? I am specifically looking for the length of the valve housing between the threads. I have a new build going on that I will plumb in the next 2 weeks and would like to go ahead and place couplers with a stub pipe where the valves will go so I don't need to tear the thing apart when the FMM's hit the open market.

Thanks!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

JustinFromAL
01/26/2017, 07:48 AM
Can anyone please post the detailed dimensions of the 1.5" and 1" valves? I am specifically looking for the length of the valve housing between the threads. I have a new build going on that I will plumb in the next 2 weeks and would like to go ahead and place couplers with a stub pipe where the valves will go so I don't need to tear the thing apart when the FMM's hit the open market.

Thanks!


The fittings on the sensors are BSP not NTP so you'll want to use the included bulkheads. So really what you need is the length from bulkhead to bulkhead. I can get that for you (for the 1") when I get home this evening. Unfortunately, I don't have a 1.5" sensor.

ca1ore
01/26/2017, 09:58 AM
Seems like years since this was announced ..... actually, is years :lol:

Very interested, so keen to see some initial feedback. I've got a very complex system, so certainly not planning to instrument all the pipes, but a few key one would be very helpful - main return, 2 siphon drains .... Interested to know what kind of resistance they put on flow. Also, whether you have to calibrate the flow sensors or not.

JustinFromAL
01/27/2017, 05:16 AM
Seems like years since this was announced ..... actually, is years :lol:

Very interested, so keen to see some initial feedback. I've got a very complex system, so certainly not planning to instrument all the pipes, but a few key one would be very helpful - main return, 2 siphon drains .... Interested to know what kind of resistance they put on flow. Also, whether you have to calibrate the flow sensors or not.


If the siphons are _always_ full siphons you should be ok, but if they have any air in them at all you're going to get poor accuracy. You're much better off monitoring the return.

The flow sensors come factory calibrated and when installed correctly have +/- 3% accuracy.

ca1ore
01/27/2017, 09:55 AM
Understood, however, for my system I disagree. It's quite easy for siphons to lose flow due to 'atherosclerosis' but still be fully flooded, and not always self-evident from open channel flow. I DiY'd a way to trigger an alert for excessive open channel drain flow, but measuring siphon flow would be more elegant, and probably more accurate. By contrast, I'm able to eyeball reactor flow/output so little value to me to monitor flow.

jml1149
01/31/2017, 02:36 PM
If the siphons are _always_ full siphons you should be ok, but if they have any air in them at all you're going to get poor accuracy. You're much better off monitoring the return.

The flow sensors come factory calibrated and when installed correctly have +/- 3% accuracy.

The sensor will measure whatever flows through it, on a return pump it's going to be 100% water, on a non-siphon drain, it's going to be a mixture of water and air.

So yes, on a return line, you will get better accuracy of actual liquid flow, same if you install it on a full siphon drain. But, on a drain that's not full siphon, you will still get a very accurate measurement of the air/water mixture flowing through it. Which really, should be just as useful in both applications. You can trend the change of the air/water mixture flowing down the drain and gather the same pump health data as if it was on the return. It's also completely valid for a flow/no flow measurement.

That's something I was really considering doing, using it as an emergency shutoff, i.e. if the pump is ON, and no flow down the drain, that water is going somewhere its not supposed to be going (I've flooded my basement plenty of times with my old nano and an overflow box. Never again!) But I decided I valued the return pump flow more than the drain, and I'm glad I did. I think upping the sump flow has made a legit difference in my tank, and it's only been a week. I'm changing filter socks every couple of days now because they're clogged.

Either way, ca1ore, if you're looking to measure heart disease in your return drains, that would be a perfect application. And really, when I tore down my nano, I was pretty surprised at how much funk had accumulated in my 1" drain over the two years it was up. Probably should have taken it apart and cleaned it a couple of times.

JustinFromAL
01/31/2017, 02:57 PM
But, on a drain that's not full siphon, you will still get a very accurate measurement of the air/water mixture flowing through it.

That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'm not fluid dynamics scholar. I'm just going off what Neptune told us in the beta program.

JustinFromAL
01/31/2017, 04:36 PM
That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'm not fluid dynamics scholar. I'm just going off what Neptune told us in the beta program.

Apparently you can't edit your posts. I just reread that and realized the tone might have sounded negative, that wasn't intended, I left out a smiley after the first sentence :debi: . What I mean is the beta test FAQ was oriented towards return pump use which was geared towards minimizing air and turbulence to get the best readings.

Good to know there are some interesting applications for the overflow as well! I had only really considered wet/dry but knowing how well your siphon is working!

ca1ore
02/04/2017, 04:10 PM
Either way, ca1ore, if you're looking to measure heart disease in your return drains, that would be a perfect application. And really, when I tore down my nano, I was pretty surprised at how much funk had accumulated in my 1" drain over the two years it was up. Probably should have taken it apart and cleaned it a couple of times.

Yes, exactly. I'm particularly blessed to have a 'productive' pocilopora colony in my tank. quite amazing the strange places I find the babies - including inside my drain pipes. I would only instrument the siphons as the open channel/emergencies are easy enough to eyeball (plus I have a DiY sensor on them already)

Now this thing just has be available to we unwashed masses.

jml1149
02/05/2017, 11:31 AM
Seriously. I'm already in the planning phase for the second FMM module. For the price, can't be beat. The amount of time and energy it would take to DIY a flow meter like this? Ain't nobody got time for that.

shields
02/22/2017, 06:21 PM
do these flow sensors monitor, and also graph reverse flow velocity and duration?

for instance, say you put the 1" sensor on the return line to the tank, when your pump goes off as programmed for feeding, the water will siphon back a bit into the sump. Now, say, the check valve on the return line breaks and water flows back into the sump longer than it should, it would be useful to set an alarm, or function to turn back on the pump in this case, in order to prevent possible sump flooding. is this possible? or it only monitors the flow in one direction?

jml1149
02/22/2017, 07:53 PM
The sensors only measure absolute flow, they can't tell direction. For instance, when I turn on my feed mode, the pump shuts off and some tank water drains into my sump. They detect the presence and decrease of flow, but they can't tell you the water is flowing in which direction.

However, they can tell you water is flowing when it's not expected, just as you described. Water flows into my sump for quite some time after the pump is off (30 seconds or so), long enough for the sensor to detect and set an alarm, absolutely. If I had a check valve, should be almost instant. So you can set an alarm, if pump off and flow > 0 for longer than 5 seconds, set alarm. Absolutely!