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View Full Version : Amount of pest found in LRs are crazy...


evolutionZ
02/06/2017, 10:20 AM
Hi guys, i just want to share this with you guys as im preparing for a rescape. i ended up with a bunch of old school live rock out of a farm (im not going to named it because it ain't their fault).

The rocks were great! full of life, purple coralline and all sorts of other algae.. I then proceed the process of curing or some will say 'cooking' them.

I first removed any sponges i see and any visible algae.. Then i did a 5min high salinity (1.04) dip to force
any pest to come out of the rocks. it wasn't very exciting when all i see was 2 crabs and no worms.

The rocks are soaked in a tub with a power head.
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae93/fissiden/20170205_195835_zpseyyqgqkr.jpg (http://s961.photobucket.com/user/fissiden/media/20170205_195835_zpseyyqgqkr.jpg.html)

The water i used was NSW (natural Sea Water) and to my surprise, the NSW was VERY high in Po4. I used a nyos kit and it was way bluer then the 1ppm color (which was the highest it could read), so the next morning i swapped out the water in the pail with new salt mix and decided i should do a longer high salinity dip since im not satisfied with the amount of pest im seeing. I went on to increase the salinity to 1.04 and left the rocks in the tub for 9 hours with a powerhead.

When i removed the cover, the smell was horrible! and the water was brownish. I got to work and removed all the rocks and slushed the rocks in the pail before removing, transferred them to new pail with 1.035 salinity.

And what a shock i got when i empty the pail and saw the massive amount of pest!

i tried to estimate and what i got is:

~15 bobbit worms (2-3 of them were at least 15cm long)
~1 mantis shrimp
~5 pistol shrimp
~ 40 bristle worms
~ 10 weird never seen before worms
~ 5 crabs

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae93/fissiden/20170206_183252_zpslviqvtmw.jpg (http://s961.photobucket.com/user/fissiden/media/20170206_183252_zpslviqvtmw.jpg.html)

I was expecting to have alot of bristle worms but the amount of bobbit worms were astonishing. and all these came out of 15kg of live rocks!

I am going to continue the high salinity dip for another 24 hours to ensure as little pest as possible.. and im kinda skeptical by the amount of crabs that died.

At this point, after the next round of high salinity dip, once i see no pest are dying and assuming the rocks are almost pest free( i guess all can agree its almost impossible to have pest free rocks without drying them right) i will change to normal salinity salt mix water and cycle with bacteria from my current tank for the next 4-6 weeks before preparing for a rescape.

Potatohead
02/06/2017, 10:24 AM
Woah

ca1ore
02/06/2017, 10:31 AM
That's pretty cool. Bobbit worms are surprising, the rest seems about right, though I suppose 'pest' is a subjective term :lol:

MMacro
02/06/2017, 10:33 AM
That's pretty cool. Bobbit worms are surprising, the rest seems about right, though I suppose 'pest' is a subjective term :lol:

Yeah, I would love to have all those pistol and mantis shrimps.

Greaser9999
02/06/2017, 10:52 AM
Do you have a pic of the mantis shrimp you found? How big was it

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kuzko
02/06/2017, 12:00 PM
There was a thread less than 2 days ago and I think may still be on the front page about not using the term "cooking rocks" anymore. Please don't use that term.

kuzko
02/06/2017, 12:04 PM
Yeah it's still on the front page.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2622632

Sk8r
02/06/2017, 12:26 PM
Put the regular bristleworms back. Plus spaghetti worms, etc.
The rest, not so much.

gogo7
02/06/2017, 01:17 PM
what a waste of perfectly good biodiversity.......i cant believe half the crap i see on this forum.....

Potatohead
02/06/2017, 01:27 PM
what a waste of perfectly good biodiversity.......i cant believe half the crap i see on this forum.....

lol

I think most of us are interested in a reef tank (you know, corals and fish) and not a worm tank

MMacro
02/06/2017, 01:31 PM
lol

I think most of us are interested in a reef tank (you know, corals and fish) and not a worm tank

I think both are equally interesting. I often spend more time looking in my display fuge then I do my main display. Also, the worms are not meant for 'display' purposes. They are a great member of a clean up crew. You only really see them at night.

gogo7
02/06/2017, 01:34 PM
lol

I think most of us are interested in a reef tank (you know, corals and fish) and not a worm tank

ummmmm...what part of 'reef' do you think these rocks came from? the sterile marineland part?....where the fish eat pellets only and the corals survive on the light provided by lighting du jour?...dont call it a reef tank....cus it's nothing like a reef now...its a pet store dream....or should i say nightmare

reefless
02/06/2017, 01:36 PM
What's the point of using "live" rock if you are just going kill all the life in it. One of the joys of a reef tank is all of the interesting life that appears in it.


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EMeyer
02/06/2017, 01:42 PM
+1 to that. Different strokes and everything, but I'll never understand this desire to have a sterile tank.

It looks to me like the OP found some actual live rock and proceeded to do everything in his power to turn it into the boring, dead rock sold as "live rock" in every LFS because it has bacteria on it. (Of course all rocks are covered with bacteria, unless youve just autoclaved them)

MMacro
02/06/2017, 01:55 PM
+1 to that. Different strokes and everything, but I'll never understand this desire to have a sterile tank.

It looks to me like the OP found some actual live rock and proceeded to do everything in his power to turn it into the boring, dead rock sold as "live rock" in every LFS because it has bacteria on it. (Of course all rocks are covered with bacteria, unless youve just autoclaved them)

I start with dry everything. Rock, sand, rubble, etc.
I them add all of the macrofauna and other critters that I desire. Helps me keep control.
I also dip and qt everything that I add.

Ou8me2
02/06/2017, 01:57 PM
Should've just saved some money and bought dry rock. :thumbsup:

on a side note I was watching a guy on youtube do coral dips and amazing what little hitchhikers come along on corals. He had some bristleworms, brittle stars and a few other nasty things. :crazy1:

CrayolaViolence
02/06/2017, 02:00 PM
Question. If you are going to kill everything on the rocks, then what is the purpose of getting live rock to begin with? I mean, you're basically paying for the biodiversity then killing it off. You can get sterile, no worms/pests/whatever rock from any dry rock source. By curing the rock to the point of killing every thing (and yes you can cure rock without killing everything) you defeat the entire purpose of paying that price for the live rock.

While I totally get not wanting to deal with pest worms and such (I hate fire worms and am allergic to them) but I would never cure my rock to death. Those critters are an important part of the eco system in your tank.

On the word "cooking rock". I personally don't like that term much (and yes I've used it) but in all honesty, depending on the curing technique it is a very fitting word. There are some people who will put rock into a cooler with only a power head or pump. You have no idea how much heat those things produce till you do this. They then "cook" the rock in these conditions to sterilize it. And I'm telling you, it pretty much cooks the rock. Again--waste of life in my honest opinion.

I'm guessing the cooking rock was probably connected to various incidence of people actually boiling live rock and getting a nasty surprise. I'm sure people who put live rock in a cooler with a powerhead are taking an equally dangerous risk.

CrayolaViolence
02/06/2017, 02:01 PM
Should've just saved some money and bought dry rock. :thumbsup:

on a side note I was watching a guy on youtube do coral dips and amazing what little hitchhikers come along on corals. He had some bristleworms, brittle stars and a few other nasty things. :crazy1:

Brittle stars are not nasty. They are very important in removing uneaten food and waste in a tank. There are also symbiotic crabs that come in on acropora. These crabs will actually protected and take care of the acros.

Ou8me2
02/06/2017, 02:23 PM
Brittle stars are not nasty. They are very important in removing uneaten food and waste in a tank. There are also symbiotic crabs that come in on acropora. These crabs will actually protected and take care of the acros.

I was being sarcastic with the bristle worms and brittle stars comment. Hence the crazy eyes emoji :D

Potatohead
02/06/2017, 03:12 PM
ummmmm...what part of 'reef' do you think these rocks came from? the sterile marineland part?....where the fish eat pellets only and the corals survive on the light provided by lighting du jour?...dont call it a reef tank....cus it's nothing like a reef now...its a pet store dream....or should i say nightmare

Meh, most live rock doesn't even come from real reefs anymore.

saf1
02/06/2017, 07:38 PM
lol

I think most of us are interested in a reef tank (you know, corals and fish) and not a worm tank

Valid counter point. They are, however, mutually inclusive. Most you would never see although I get it is personal preference.

windlasher
02/06/2017, 10:16 PM
I start with dry everything. Rock, sand, rubble, etc.
I them add all of the macrofauna and other critters that I desire. Helps me keep control.
I also dip and qt everything that I add.

What you said - Nothing wrong with biodiversity until you lose several hundred in corals over a weekend and can't figure out why until you start hearing that damned clicking noise and have to take your tank apart to find it.. No thanks - I remain a control freak.

Spslvr
02/06/2017, 10:22 PM
What you said - Nothing wrong with biodiversity until you lose several hundred in corals over a weekend and can't figure out why until you start hearing that damned clicking noise and have to take your tank apart to find it.. No thanks - I remain a control freak.

you've had corals taken down by mantis or pistols?..... do tell..

windlasher
02/06/2017, 11:25 PM
you've had corals taken down by mantis or pistols?..... do tell..

I've had fish killed and corals damaged by a mantis. I had to take the entire tank apart to find the little criminal. It sucked.

MMacro
02/06/2017, 11:30 PM
you've had corals taken down by mantis or pistols?..... do tell..

Certain types of mantis shrimp like to live in coral colonies which can cause damage to the specimen.

windlasher
02/06/2017, 11:33 PM
what a waste of perfectly good biodiversity.......i cant believe half the crap i see on this forum.....

Good thing the other half provides useful and insightful information then or you would have no reason to keep coming back.

slgcmg
02/07/2017, 12:19 AM
To each his own, but might as well buy dry rock

gogo7
02/07/2017, 12:44 AM
Good thing the other half provides useful and insightful information then or you would have no reason to keep coming back.

yeah, like 'cooking' live rock....like pretending that pistol shrimps, mantis shrimps and all those worms are taking out your expensive corals and fish , that it's not your inability to understand the micro ecosystems you're trying to maintain, or your sad husbandry techniques..it's the fault of all those tiny invertebrates that you read about by some 'intelligent' reef keeper here, the guy selling you x and y filtration to get your x and y chemistry together. because that's the real problem... right?
the pathetic nonsense i've read here makes me ill..... and then some of you have the pansy mentality to cry over what's happening to the gbr.

biodiversity, everything that op killed here, saves your 'reef' tank..
feed it with live phytoplankton, not 'cook' it with elevated sg.
quarantine your 'live' rock before introduction, observe it, remove what you don't want... there are no 'pests', just what you've been told not to have in there. all those dead worms would help maintain ops 'reef'... but now he just has a 'fish tank'.... thanks to guys like you

gogo7
02/07/2017, 01:14 AM
i have to add that i've looked at ops (evolutionz) tank and have to say that it's quite beautiful. his sps tank looks stunning... actually one of the best i've seen here on rc. the freshwater tanks look amazing, and everything looks expensive.
so please don't take what i have to as a negative to evolutionz.
definitely understands how to maintain a coral tank..... and i apologize, especially for sounding facetious.
but i stand by my statements one hundred percent.
new reefers here,
quarantine your live rock, feed your animals, water change. those critters on your live rock are valuable, all of them.

wrott
02/07/2017, 05:12 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunice_aphroditois

evolutionZ
02/07/2017, 06:35 AM
Thank you for all the valuable advices, critics and etc! i actually come from singapore and the reefing scene here is embarrassingly small, we do have couple of marine farms/shops but none of them actually carry dead rocks. yes none! we do not have the luxury of online stores such as BRS that sells a wide selection of awesome live rocks. and recently for the past years, the farms/shops in my country are focusing on promoting fake rocks. Rocks that are ready made (with nice shape size) and came from unknown source, some were resin made while some carry rocks like Aquaroche (which cost a bomb).

Infact, the only place that still sell proper live rocks is probably the place i got mine from. Our reefing culture here is always to start dry and almost 0 people uses live rocks.. We had a couple reefers losing fishes to mantis shrimps and crabs as well as bobbit worms as we generally have small tanks due to our small living space so i decided i wasn't gonna take any chance.

Its my first time curing LRs as my first tank's LRs were bought fresh from an established SPS tank who decommed, my 2nd tank's LR were bought live but bleached to ensure no pests. With this i wanted to start live but was skeptical so i decided to do a high salinity dip anyway.. looking at all your replies made me felt i was so ignorant!!

Since the damage is done, i could only rectify it.. i've done another 100% WC with salt mix and maintain a SG of 1.024, placed carbon to cope with the bad smell and will continue to do WC until they do not smell bad and from there, will seed with bacteria to make the rocks live again.

ajm83
02/07/2017, 07:11 AM
quarantine your live rock, feed your animals, water change. those critters on your live rock are valuable, all of them.

There speaks a man who has never had to tear down a tank to get rid of a pest.

windlasher
02/07/2017, 07:42 AM
There speaks a man who has never had to tear down a tank to get rid of a pest.



Yes. .... agreed. But he obviously knows everything about reefing and everything about everyone else's experience so I am on my way to harvest all of the pests... er... biodiversity I can find and dump it in my system.


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sde1500
02/07/2017, 07:53 AM
Or he simply has a different view on keeping a reef than you guys do. Shockingly not all that uncommon to see when you gather thousands of people together, there is no "right" way to do it.

Many of those "pests" listed very well could be fine, pistol shrimps are mostly harmless, depending on the mantis could be the same. Bristle worms are great for part of the CUC. Different strokes for different folks

mickey204
02/07/2017, 08:39 AM
Or he simply has a different view on keeping a reef than you guys do. Shockingly not all that uncommon to see when you gather thousands of people together, there is no "right" way to do it.

Many of those "pests" listed very well could be fine, pistol shrimps are mostly harmless, depending on the mantis could be the same. Bristle worms are great for part of the CUC. Different strokes for different folks

+1

I think the main concern is anyone new viewing this thread and being "OMG LOOK AT ALL THOSE BAD THINGS" and then proceeding to do the same with their tank.

In the end, is it really worth killing all those creatures because there's a somewhat rare chance you "might" have a mantis shrimp which will apparently want to tear apart your whole tank?

How many guys go through this process and find no mantis shrimp or bad crabs? Many I'd assume....However we don't read about those ones do we? Meanwhile all the worms, brittle stars, porcelain crabs, etc etc etc are toast.

Spslvr
02/07/2017, 02:06 PM
Certain types of mantis shrimp like to live in coral colonies which can cause damage to the specimen.

right ok....lets assume that can be an issue.... how does that translate to losing hundreds of dollars of coral in a weekend ?....

Potatohead
02/07/2017, 02:18 PM
yeah, like 'cooking' live rock....like pretending that pistol shrimps, mantis shrimps and all those worms are taking out your expensive corals and fish , that it's not your inability to understand the micro ecosystems you're trying to maintain, or your sad husbandry techniques..it's the fault of all those tiny invertebrates that you read about by some 'intelligent' reef keeper here, the guy selling you x and y filtration to get your x and y chemistry together. because that's the real problem... right?
the pathetic nonsense i've read here makes me ill..... and then some of you have the pansy mentality to cry over what's happening to the gbr.

biodiversity, everything that op killed here, saves your 'reef' tank..
feed it with live phytoplankton, not 'cook' it with elevated sg.
quarantine your 'live' rock before introduction, observe it, remove what you don't want... there are no 'pests', just what you've been told not to have in there. all those dead worms would help maintain ops 'reef'... but now he just has a 'fish tank'.... thanks to guys like you

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa1/RabidRabbit33/old_zpsgrdlsq0l.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/RabidRabbit33/media/old_zpsgrdlsq0l.jpg.html)

Spslvr
02/07/2017, 02:19 PM
+1

I think the main concern is anyone new viewing this thread and being "OMG LOOK AT ALL THOSE BAD THINGS" and then proceeding to do the same with their tank.

In the end, is it really worth killing all those creatures because there's a somewhat rare chance you "might" have a mantis shrimp which will apparently want to tear apart your whole tank?

How many guys go through this process and find no mantis shrimp or bad crabs? Many I'd assume....However we don't read about those ones do we? Meanwhile all the worms, brittle stars, porcelain crabs, etc etc etc are toast.

agreed, this "pest" paranoia is going waaaay to far and newbies especially are almost neurotic about it..... in 25 years of reefing I have never once removed anything except for 1 urchin that kept knocking over my freshly glued frags lol

believe it or not i have never ever even removed an aptasia.....sure I have 1 or 2 but they have never been an issue, mantis, pistol, worms, crabs.... I just leave em
even vermatieds are considered pests now :hmm3: really wth

let me ask a question.....if these are bad where are all the vids of mantis killing peoples fish, I know large spearers are capable but most pests are about 1 inch long clubbers, wheres the vids ppl, show me vids of bristl worm eating you prized corals and vermateids actually causing your rtn

gogo7
02/07/2017, 02:50 PM
in response to mr potato head......
got syconid sponges in my 'reef' tank, better buy an angel fish to get rid of it.

this is the kinda nonsense that bothers me.

hbrochs
02/08/2017, 03:15 PM
I started my reef with live rock and did not have any bad pests.

I was talking to my buddy yesterday about his upcoming build and we were having the dry rock vs live rock debate. Right now I have been battling Aiptasia, and I don't really think it came on the rock. I'm pretty sure it came on a frag.
So we can take all these precautions, and still get a pest.

While its true that the original poster removed some of his reef life, I believe he only removed a fraction of the life in those rocks. I think his rock is still much more live rock than dead rock. Surely the bacteria survived a little hypersalinity.

I'm a fairly heavy feeder, so I have a ton of bristle worms in my tank. They are just part of my clean up crew.

Potatohead
02/08/2017, 03:19 PM
in response to mr potato head......
got syconid sponges in my 'reef' tank, better buy an angel fish to get rid of it.

this is the kinda nonsense that bothers me.

Different strokes man, if someone wants a sterile tank, it doesn't affect your life at all. I don't see the big deal.

ajm83
02/08/2017, 03:26 PM
agreed, this "pest" paranoia is going waaaay to far and newbies especially are almost neurotic about it..... in 25 years of reefing I have never once removed anything except for 1 urchin that kept knocking over my freshly glued frags lol

believe it or not i have never ever even removed an aptasia.....sure I have 1 or 2 but they have never been an issue, mantis, pistol, worms, crabs.... I just leave em
even vermatieds are considered pests now :hmm3: really wth

let me ask a question.....if these are bad where are all the vids of mantis killing peoples fish, I know large spearers are capable but most pests are about 1 inch long clubbers, wheres the vids ppl, show me vids of bristl worm eating you prized corals and vermateids actually causing your rtn

Vermetids and aiptasia, no thanks :lolspin: think i'll be sticking to pulling them out.

Vermetids are proven to damage coral BTW but you knew that already didn't you?

homer1475
02/08/2017, 03:30 PM
Vermetids and aiptasia, no thanks :lolspin: think i'll be sticking to pulling them out.

Vermetids are proven to damage coral BTW but you knew that already didn't you?

Actually let me correct you.

Vermetid snails do no actual harm to corals. What they do do(heh do do)is cast out a feeding "web" which in turn irritates the coral causing it not to open up. Which in turn causes it to die because it can't open up and receive light for food.

I'll reserve my comments on this thread. Just keep in mind, were all different and reef different. No one way is correct.

ajm83
02/08/2017, 03:49 PM
Actually let me correct you.

Vermetid snails do no actual harm to corals. What they do do(heh do do)is cast out a feeding "web" which in turn irritates the coral causing it not to open up. Which in turn causes it to die because it can't open up and receive light for food.

Not to be a ****, but why jump in to correct me if you don't actually know?

Field experiments clearly demonstrated deleterious effects of vermetids on corals. Ambient densities of vermetids reduced coral skeletal growth of all four coral species (figure 2a). Vermetids reduced growth rates of Pocillopora by 68–81%, P. rus by 62 per cent, P. lobata by 40–62% and Montipora by 24 per cent. Vermetids also reduced survival of all species of coral except Montipora (which exhibited 100% colony survival: figure 2b).

http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/05/18/rsbl.2010.0291.full

saf1
02/08/2017, 04:03 PM
Sort of a funny thread. Responsible reef keeping will use QT tanks to varying degree. It helps. Has cost or value increases one typically will increase mitigation practices. However....

Trying to keep a sterile tank, dry rock or none, it all goes out the door upon the first introduction to the tank. Be that fish, coral, or your hand. Chemical euphoria aside, the tank isn't a operating floor and mother nature has a way of taking a bite out of the big apple.

Good luck.

homer1475
02/08/2017, 04:51 PM
Not to be a ****, but why jump in to correct me if you don't actually know?



http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/05/18/rsbl.2010.0291.full


Did you actually read that entire thing or just cherry pick that quote? I would suggest you go back and read the entire article before saying that I don't actually know.

Let me cherry pick a quote from the article you just posted. Which describe just what I said.

Although the mechanisms underlying strong vermetid–coral interactions remain unknown, we speculate that they probably involve vermetid mucus nets. Thus, deleterious effects on corals will depend on vermetid density, possibly generating strong spatio-temporal variation in responses reflecting local vermetid dynamics. Further, we hypothesize that vermetid recruitment dynamics (possibly facilitated by an initial disturbance causing partial death of a coral colony) may play an important role in vermetid–coral interactions. Anecdotal evidence also suggests that the density of D. maximum has increased recently in the Red Sea (Zvuloni et al. 2008 (http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/05/18/rsbl.2010.0291.full#ref-23)) and Moorea (B. Salvat & Y. Chancerelle, personal communication), possibly in response to coastal eutrophication driven by human activities (Zvuloni et al. 2008 (http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/05/18/rsbl.2010.0291.full#ref-23)), and/or a reduction in harvesting (D. maximum is a traditional food source in Polynesia: electronic supplementary material, appendix D).

Spslvr
02/08/2017, 06:33 PM
Vermetids and aiptasia, no thanks :lolspin: think i'll be sticking to pulling them out.

Vermetids are proven to damage coral BTW but you knew that already didn't you?

what I also know is if you have a thriving healthy tank, no amount of vermiteid snails is going to kill your corals, in corals like montiopora and acropora these snails cause a healthy coral to grow tubes, some people don't like this look while others like me aren't really bothered by it, its kinda natural lookin.... lol...."natural".... in any case im still wanting an answer on how a mantis shrimp supposedly took out hundreds of dollars in coral over a weekend...

its like buying an adult emporer angel and adding to a tank no qt no acclimation period then waking up in the morning to find it dead and saying it must have been stung by that aptasia.....

p.s in my experience vermatieds casting webs is usually indicative of an over abundance of particle matter in your water column....

the animals we keep have remained unchanged for many millennia while our reefkeeping trends tend to go in 5 year blocks...

Vio
02/08/2017, 07:32 PM
Whatever kill inside the rocks by using Muriatic Acid , Bleach. Bake, Cook etc. will release PO4, Nitrate etc. than you face the music HR, i prefer to cure for 3 months until i got nice coraline. Cure on dif. tank, use Algae Scrubber, dose bacteria than everything will be nice.

Mad_Reefer
02/08/2017, 10:37 PM
I'd take your "pests".

Mad_Reefer
02/08/2017, 10:43 PM
I didn't do this approach and ended up with hundreds of dime sized feather dusters in my sump. I think it's pretty cool.

ajm83
02/09/2017, 12:25 AM
Did you actually read that entire thing or just cherry pick that quote? I would suggest you go back and read the entire article before saying that I don't actually know.

Let me cherry pick a quote from the article you just posted. Which describe just what I said.

Of course I have. I don't really understand what you are arguing about at this point.

I said "they damage corals"

you said "they just make mucous nets, they don't actually harm corals"

I said "yes they do, read this specific passage showing they harm corals"

you said "YES BUT MUCOUS NETS"

???

So what you're saying now is that you agreed with me all along - they DO damage corals?

ReefPharmer
02/09/2017, 01:04 AM
Not sure about you guys but I don't want all that stuff in my tank. I have enough "biodiversity". I got a cleaner pack and got some chitons in it. Low and behold they leave bite marks on my 300 "was new" acrylic tank.

saf1
02/09/2017, 10:54 AM
Some of them are actually great indicators of overall tank health and make good signs of potential issues. Personally I don't mind Vermetus has long has they are kept in check. Gives me an idea of my feeding habits and other forms of tank maintenance and/or overall water quality. Same with various forms of algae and fauna.

Many may gasp at such comments but one mans opinion on it.

Mishri
02/09/2017, 05:26 PM
I have some live rock I've been curing for over a year now.. almost have all the pests gone (2 gorilla crabs left).. and have a lot of beneficial and neat critters... I think I have 40lbs of it.. will use that to seed my display tank dry rock.. If you are patient, and pay attention and watch the tank at night you'll find the things you need to get rid of.

KingOfAll_Tyrants
02/09/2017, 06:10 PM
Or he simply has a different view on keeping a reef than you guys do. Shockingly not all that uncommon to see when you gather thousands of people together, there is no "right" way to do it.

Many of those "pests" listed very well could be fine, pistol shrimps are mostly harmless, depending on the mantis could be the same. Bristle worms are great for part of the CUC. Different strokes for different folks

Further, it seems to me how you do this depends on your objective for the tank. If you want it it be a small slice of the ocean, many/most of these hitchhikers are good. If you want just baceria filtration for a host of corals/fish, then the start from dry rock method makes sense.

Rick's Reef
02/09/2017, 08:40 PM
I have been following this thread with intense interest :).

I have been out of the hobby about 5 years but now setting up another tank. My previous tank I setup in ~2000 and shutdown in 2011. I only had a few LPS and well stocked with fish but my rock was the real stuff from Fiji and Tonga with ~4 weeks curing. Maybe I got lucky or maybe it wasn't as "real" as I thought...

Anyway I have been reading the thread and I feel like Charlie Sheen in Platoon listening to Barnes and Elias waging a war for my reefing soul :). Originally, I was thinking I would be ordering the live stuff again, despite listening to the BRStv videos about pests and starting all bare and dry.

So for those that are into the live side of the argument, beyond the 4 weeks curing time and some observation, what other tips are recommended? For example, should I be doing a high S.G. dip for 15 minutes before putting the rock in the tank after the 4 weeks curing?

Thanks,
Rick

ks1546
02/09/2017, 09:10 PM
[emoji317].


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Green Chromis
02/10/2017, 07:41 AM
I have been following this thread with intense interest :).

I have been out of the hobby about 5 years but now setting up another tank. My previous tank I setup in ~2000 and shutdown in 2011. I only had a few LPS and well stocked with fish but my rock was the real stuff from Fiji and Tonga with ~4 weeks curing. Maybe I got lucky or maybe it wasn't as "real" as I thought...

Anyway I have been reading the thread and I feel like Charlie Sheen in Platoon listening to Barnes and Elias waging a war for my reefing soul :). Originally, I was thinking I would be ordering the live stuff again, despite listening to life on itthe BRStv videos about pests and starting all bare and dry.

So for those that are into the live side of the argument, beyond the 4 weeks curing time and some observation, what other tips are recommended? For example, should I be doing a high S.G. dip for 15 minutes before putting the rock in the tank after the 4 weeks curing?

Thanks,
Rick
:fish1: Hi Rick, if you are spending a lot of money on live rock, why kill all the beneficial life on it, by doing a high salinity dip, just go with some dead rock, and deal with the rock leaching phosphates for a long period of time. I would never start a system without a very high quality live rock, and yes their may be a few unwanted hitchhikers in it, but they are easy to remove from your system, it just takes a little patience, and work. It is a lot easier, and cheaper in the long run to remove a few pest, then it is to fight algae and other problems, for a long period of time associated with using dead rock. Does your live rock have a lot of living organism on it, like some corals, beneficial algae's, or other organism on, or in it, if so why not treat it in your tank, running your lights, protein skimmer, carbon, GFO, etc., as this will help keep all your beneficial life on, an in it alive. I like using live rock, because of all the extra, and beneficial life on, and in the rock. It's fun to watch the rock while the tank cycles, and usually the system will cycle very quickly. :fish1:

d0ughb0y
02/10/2017, 12:05 PM
I start with dry everything. Rock, sand, rubble, etc.
I them add all of the macrofauna and other critters that I desire. Helps me keep control.
I also dip and qt everything that I add.

I'm with you on this. I would never use live rock as is. either dry rock, or sterilize the heck out of live rock (which you can get cheap or free from people breaking down tanks). Anything I did not put in the tank, I don't want, beneficial or not. Bacteria will eventually grow on the rocks.


Should've just saved some money and bought dry rock. :thumbsup:

on a side note I was watching a guy on youtube do coral dips and amazing what little hitchhikers come along on corals. He had some bristleworms, brittle stars and a few other nasty things. :crazy1:

I now always get fresh cut frags. too many issues with hitchhikers on frag plugs. not worth the risk.

windlasher
02/11/2017, 02:25 AM
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa1/RabidRabbit33/old_zpsgrdlsq0l.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/RabidRabbit33/media/old_zpsgrdlsq0l.jpg.html)

Everyone has an opinion and everyone thinks they are right. I don't have a problem with this. I have a problem with someone throwing an opinion out there and calling everyone who disagrees with him pansy. Grow up and have an adult discussion without all of the name calling.

You want all that in your tank, great, go for it. Some of us don't.

And no, it doesn't make sense that he paid for live rock plus shipping and then proceeded to kill most of the life. I've started every tank I have owned with dry rock. The hitchhikers (good or bad) have come in on colonies that I have purchased.

I had a mantis that I couldn't trap which beat the crap out of some of my coral beds every night and injured some fish. I had to tear down the tank to get rid of him. IF the OP did identify Bobbit worms in there, then why risk it. I wouldn't want that in my tank, hence the starting every tank dry.

Spslvr
02/11/2017, 02:38 AM
Everyone has an opinion and everyone thinks they are right. I don't have a problem with this. I have a problem with someone throwing an opinion out there and calling everyone who disagrees with him pansy. Grow up and have an adult discussion without all of the name calling.

You want all that in your tank, great, go for it. Some of us don't.

And no, it doesn't make sense that he paid for live rock plus shipping and then proceeded to kill most of the life. I've started every tank I have owned with dry rock. The hitchhikers (good or bad) have come in on colonies that I have purchased.

I had a mantis that I couldn't trap which beat the crap out of some of my coral beds every night and injured some fish. I had to tear down the tank to get rid of him. IF the OP did identify Bobbit worms in there, then why risk it. I wouldn't want that in my tank, hence the starting every tank dry.

Im still really intriqued, exactly what species of corals did this mantis beat up, did you witness this personally, i am genuinely curious as i have never encountered this before.....

windlasher
02/11/2017, 03:33 AM
Im still really intriqued, exactly what species of corals did this mantis beat up, did you witness this personally, i am genuinely curious as i have never encountered this before.....

I honestly don't remember exactly what corals as this was about four years ago before I moved house and tore down my tanks. What I remember was that on some morning when I got up there were corals knocked over, some broken. When one of the blennies turned up dead I started to suspect something so one night I slept on the couch next to the tank. In the middle of the night, I would hear clicking. I searched for the source but of course, when I turned the lights on it would stop. One night I managed to get a glimpse of something in the back before it disappeared.

Moved all coral and fish to other tank, still clicking. Moved all the rock, couldn't find it. Even after examining every piece of rock I still couldn't find it.

Took every piece of rock out and dumped it in the basement sump. Broke up some of the larger pieces until I found the little bastard hidden in a hole on a huge piece of rock. Needless to say, the chemistry of my system was screwed for several weeks while things settled back down.

Like I said - no fun, don't want to go through that again. People can obviously do what they want. For me, every since then, it's been Nuke em from space cause its the only way to be sure.

Kremis
02/11/2017, 10:16 AM
I would rather not have 15 bobbit worms in my reef tank, i dont know about you guys

Higher Thinking
02/11/2017, 10:53 AM
There was a thread less than 2 days ago and I think may still be on the front page about not using the term "cooking rocks" anymore. Please don't use that term.
I think trying to regulate terminology is ridiculous. As do many people on that thread. You can't just try and change terminology, that's not how language works.

windlasher
02/11/2017, 03:24 PM
I would rather not have 15 bobbit worms in my reef tank, i dont know about you guys

RIGHT - I can't find ONE store online that has a section selling Marine pests. If Bristle worms are so much fun, why do they not sell them next to the inverts? Baby Bobbit worm anyone? 10 for $9.99. Monti Eating Nudibranch? $14.99ea. :bounce1:

saf1
02/11/2017, 03:30 PM
RIGHT - I can't find ONE store online that has a section selling Marine pests. If Bristle worms are so much fun, why do they not sell them next to the inverts? Baby Bobbit worm anyone? 10 for $9.99. Monti Eating Nudibranch? $14.99ea. :bounce1:

You are assuming a bristle worm is a pest. For most it isn't and serves a specific role. You actually do see them for sale but typically in live sand activator kits or similar products. They are also typically found on your rock if you buy live.

I know you have the bouncy emote so I know the comment is somewhat in jest but just saying you do see some of these so called questionable creatures for sale. Bobbit worms, probably not because, well, that is a known pest :) It really is to each their own though as the thread shows.

windlasher
02/11/2017, 09:30 PM
Im still really intriqued, exactly what species of corals did this mantis beat up, did you witness this personally, i am genuinely curious as i have never encountered this before.....

Since you have never heard of this : LMGTFU :spin1:

https://www.wired.com/2013/09/absurd-creature-of-the-week-bobbit-worm/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3469606/Creature-deep-Giant-bobbit-worm-emerges-rock-hiding-man-s-fish-tank-eating-coral-TWO-YEARS-without-caught.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1165930/Barry-giant-sea-worm-discovered-aquarium-staff-mysterious-attacks-coral-reef.html

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/4km6sw/guy_finds_a_4_foot_long_bristle_worm_in_his_fish/

tkeracer619
02/11/2017, 09:34 PM
A bristle worm is not a pest. A bobbit worm sure is.

windlasher
02/11/2017, 09:54 PM
A bristle worm is not a pest. A bobbit worm sure is.

YES However - Everything in Moderation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bImTIvX6FDc

Spslvr
02/11/2017, 10:00 PM
Bobbits can become problematic when large, i agree with that

MMacro
02/11/2017, 10:43 PM
RIGHT - I can't find ONE store online that has a section selling Marine pests. If Bristle worms are so much fun, why do they not sell them next to the inverts? Baby Bobbit worm anyone? 10 for $9.99. Monti Eating Nudibranch? $14.99ea. :bounce1:

http://www.ipsf.com
Just gonna leave this here.

evolutionZ
02/12/2017, 06:01 AM
Week 1 update.

First day is what you see above,

Day 2: when i lifted the cover of the pail, the smell was horrible really horrible!!! The water are almost totally brown and interestingly there were still more dead worms (not as much as day 1 though) quickly did a 100% WC.

Day 3: Smell wasn't that bad anymore and water has infact cleared up. placed Carbon and phosphate minus into the pail. swapped pump with wavemaker as pump was emitting too much heat, rocks turned slightly blackish.

Day 3 : Smell was the same, did another 100% WC, this time round swosh the rocks in the old water to try get as much debris off as possible.

Day 4: Smell drastically improved.. still smell alittle bad though.. took po4 reading using nyos kit, still above 1ppm

Day 5: 50% WC, took out rocks to swosh around in old tank water, noticed rocks are back to the whiteish color when i first bought.

Day 7: 100% WC, 50% coming from old tank water.. hoping to introduce some bacteria into the rocks. also placed some really really old small boulders of LRs (from my sump) into the pail in order to seed the rocks. rotting smell still lingers.

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae93/fissiden/fissiden124/20170210_221811_zpskfkukees.jpg (http://s961.photobucket.com/user/fissiden/media/fissiden124/20170210_221811_zpskfkukees.jpg.html)

I will continue 50% wc every 3-4 days. once a week when i do WC on my main tank, will use that water (filtered) and change with the pail water instead. the rocks are pretty clean now and almost certainly no "pest" inside other than bacteria! another 5 weeks to go...

windlasher
02/12/2017, 02:25 PM
http://www.ipsf.com
Just gonna leave this here.

LOL - That is so cool - Still dont want em... :lolspin:

evolutionZ
02/17/2017, 09:59 AM
Today the rocks smells like fresh ocean!! no longer having any bad smell after close to 2 weeks of soaking. took them out to try scape today!

sde1500
02/17/2017, 01:20 PM
Since you have never heard of this : LMGTFU :spin1:

https://www.wired.com/2013/09/absurd-creature-of-the-week-bobbit-worm/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3469606/Creature-deep-Giant-bobbit-worm-emerges-rock-hiding-man-s-fish-tank-eating-coral-TWO-YEARS-without-caught.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1165930/Barry-giant-sea-worm-discovered-aquarium-staff-mysterious-attacks-coral-reef.html

https://www.*spammy*/r/videos/comments/4km6sw/guy_finds_a_4_foot_long_bristle_worm_in_his_fish/

He asks about mantis killing corals, you give him four links to bobbit worms, swing and a miss.

windlasher
02/17/2017, 10:03 PM
He asks about mantis killing corals, you give him four links to bobbit worms, swing and a miss.



Actually he asked about pests killing corals. The original post said he found 15 Bobit worms. Which are pests and do kill corals. The conversation then proceeded to should you kill them or nurture / remove whatever you find and don't like. Have a nice day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Moort82
02/19/2017, 08:38 AM
I honestly don't remember exactly what corals as this was about four years ago before I moved house and tore down my tanks. What I remember was that on some morning when I got up there were corals knocked over, some broken. When one of the blennies turned up dead I started to suspect something so one night I slept on the couch next to the tank. In the middle of the night, I would hear clicking. I searched for the source but of course, when I turned the lights on it would stop. One night I managed to get a glimpse of something in the back before it disappeared.

Moved all coral and fish to other tank, still clicking. Moved all the rock, couldn't find it. Even after examining every piece of rock I still couldn't find it.

Took every piece of rock out and dumped it in the basement sump. Broke up some of the larger pieces until I found the little bastard hidden in a hole on a huge piece of rock. Needless to say, the chemistry of my system was screwed for several weeks while things settled back down.

Like I said - no fun, don't want to go through that again. People can obviously do what they want. For me, every since then, it's been Nuke em from space cause its the only way to be sure.

I'm sorry for your troubles but mantis don't kill for fun so if it killed the blenny I doubt you would have seen any evidence. It might of knocked some corals but this could have equally been snails or crabs. Stripping your tank and the associated chemistry problems and coral loss aren't a physical result of the mantis but your intervention.
not meaning to criticise what you did or your views in anyway as most people wouldn't want a mantis in their reef but everything can't be blamed on something that didn't want to live there in the first place.

windlasher
02/19/2017, 10:02 PM
I'm sorry for your troubles but mantis don't kill for fun so if it killed the blenny I doubt you would have seen any evidence. It might of knocked some corals but this could have equally been snails or crabs. Stripping your tank and the associated chemistry problems and coral loss aren't a physical result of the mantis but your intervention.
not meaning to criticise what you did or your views in anyway as most people wouldn't want a mantis in their reef but everything can't be blamed on something that didn't want to live there in the first place.

I don't kill for fun either. But I still love a good steak.

stelliofleondis
02/20/2017, 01:37 PM
I always start with dry rock $ saved on dry can be used to get better equipment. You also save $ on treatments that would you no doubt have to use on eradicating pests!

Spslvr
02/20/2017, 01:57 PM
Actually he asked about pests killing corals. The original post said he found 15 Bobit worms. Which are pests and do kill corals. The conversation then proceeded to should you kill them or nurture / remove whatever you find and don't like. Have a nice day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

actually you did say that a mantis took out hundreds of dollars in coral over a weekend......I called b.s., and still do..

phil5613
02/20/2017, 02:54 PM
LOL I am just getting back into the hobby and see NOTHING has changed with the humans trying to create mini oceans in their home. Ask 5 reef addicts or 5 LFS the same question get 10 different answers. Sometimes in the same location. I have been reading a ton to learn what I have been missing in the last 5 years or so. Mostly LED information. I also don't understand why kill the LR after spending double or more over base rock.

I am glad the OP is enjoying the hobby and feeling successful with his plan. That is what the hobby is about. Its not who is the smartest or can find a quote somewhere to match their viewpoint. With every variable there is to this hobby, who can say it has to be this way or everything dies?

I am going big once I am back, I am in the planning stage now, At least 210 again. I have been reading all the build threads and mostly everyone gets the Dinos, HA or Cyno on start up no matter what the Curing/Cooking process has been and along with that they mostly end up with pests and unresolved deaths.

SO, what I am saying is right or wrong if it works for you CONGRATS!

Oh and I forgot to use the word Actually as that seems to be a great buzzword around here

windlasher
02/21/2017, 10:37 AM
actually you did say that a mantis took out hundreds of dollars in coral over a weekend......I called b.s., and still do..

As is your right sir. You have a good day as well.

CrayolaViolence
02/21/2017, 11:18 AM
I was being sarcastic with the bristle worms and brittle stars comment. Hence the crazy eyes emoji :D

My apologies then. :). I totally missed that.

hart24601
02/21/2017, 12:52 PM
Wow, so much arguing over bristleworms and starfish, lets not get bogged down with that...

You killed bobbit worms! Yikes! I sure think you did the right thing! No way I would want those in my system - I mean it's cool if someone likes them and want one, but nope nope nope! Several of them were around 7 inches! It's one of those things that might have given you trouble for years and you would have never known it was there.

I have started tanks with live rock, dry rock and my favorite - dry ceramic rock. Our goals in the hobby can all be different, someone likes a DSB and loves having all sorts of inverts? Rock on! Enjoy it, that's as awesome as the biggest SPS tank because it's yours and you like it!

However there are plenty of nice tanks that start with dry rock. It's not like it's going to hold you back from having a great tank. 15 bobbit worms might hold you back from your goals though unless you want a bobbit worm tank! I will attach a pic of my tank and it has only ceramic rock. I don't think the company is around anymore vidarock, but it was by far my fav "rock". Funny to think the tank below has no "rock" in it at least no calcium based rock!

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/3r_zpsevllzq8e.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/2r_zpsxlyemhee.jpg

anthonys51
02/21/2017, 02:50 PM
totally agree with what you said. the type of rock used will not affect how your tank looks in the years to come. so many other things will. I will argee it doesn't make sense to me to buy live rock from places like tampa bay live rock, to then nuke it, but its the op money he can do with it what he wants.

one finally thought, you have one hell of a tank. i personally would listen to any advice you gave about keeping a reef tank.

i think on here we should be able to see your tanks before we listen to what you have to say. no one wants to take dieting advice from a fat trainer

windlasher
02/21/2017, 03:38 PM
Wow, so much arguing over bristleworms and starfish, lets not get bogged down with that...

You killed bobbit worms! Yikes! I sure think you did the right thing! No way I would want those in my system - I mean it's cool if someone likes them and want one, but nope nope nope! Several of them were around 7 inches! It's one of those things that might have given you trouble for years and you would have never known it was there.

I have started tanks with live rock, dry rock and my favorite - dry ceramic rock. Our goals in the hobby can all be different, someone likes a DSB and loves having all sorts of inverts? Rock on! Enjoy it, that's as awesome as the biggest SPS tank because it's yours and you like it!

However there are plenty of nice tanks that start with dry rock. It's not like it's going to hold you back from having a great tank. 15 bobbit worms might hold you back from your goals though unless you want a bobbit worm tank! I will attach a pic of my tank and it has only ceramic rock. I don't think the company is around anymore vidarock, but it was by far my fav "rock". Funny to think the tank below has no "rock" in it at least no calcium based rock!

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/3r_zpsevllzq8e.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/2r_zpsxlyemhee.jpg

Very nice -

evolutionZ
02/22/2017, 12:07 AM
absolutely agree with Hart24601, i also started my current 50g with pure dead rocks that were bleached, soak in vinegar and started dry. i didn't have any of those critters i found in my batch of Live rocks, and im sure i didn't want them in my new scape too.

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae93/fissiden/DSC09758_zps15gnfpma.jpg (http://s961.photobucket.com/user/fissiden/media/DSC09758_zps15gnfpma.jpg.html)

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae93/fissiden/fissiden121/20161226_145837_zpsgh2t427t.jpg (http://s961.photobucket.com/user/fissiden/media/fissiden121/20161226_145837_zpsgh2t427t.jpg.html)

d0ughb0y
02/22/2017, 12:53 PM
i think on here we should be able to see your tanks before we listen to what you have to say. no one wants to take dieting advice from a fat trainer

similarly, don't get advise from shop teacher with missing finger.

I'm sure anyone who has been hit with a tank crash due to misc unknown critters in the tank start over with dry rock and controls things that go in to the tank. just as people who drive like crazy has never been in a bad accident or get an expensive ticket.

CrayolaViolence
02/22/2017, 03:14 PM
Granted, I could have missed it, but I don't recall anyone trying to debate "the best rock" rather (at least for myself) I am confused as to why someone would pay a premium price for live rock, then kill everything on it. The extra money you pay, is for those critters found on the rock. You can buy dry, dead, critter free rock, for less than two dollars a pound, where as live rock will cost as much as 10.00 a pound, sometimes more depending on the type and what's on it.
Because believe it or not, people do pay money for brittle stars, fire worms (ick) and even bobbit worms (you could not pay me to take one). Just as they pay upwards of 100 bucks for a mantis shrimp. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

CJMichalik
02/22/2017, 05:39 PM
Crayola,

The OP mentioned that in Singapore he has limited options. So everyone in the hobby there buys live rock and then cures it. I presume if he is correct this means that the sellers don't care what is in the rock because they expect the buyer to take care of it.

evolutionZ
02/22/2017, 05:44 PM
Yup! In my country the LR are probably the cheapest rocks you can get your hands on. Dead dry rocks are almost impossible to find, unless a particular shop had a batch left out to try and collect rain water which thry would still sell the same price as live rocks. (probably full of phosphate too).

Retailers have recently started bringing in fake rocks (some were resin made some were calcium carbonate like Walt Smith reef rock) and the price were insanely crazy! For a box of 20kg worth, they would typically cost 3-4 times as much as actual live rocks. That's why I decided to get LR and cure them my selves.

evolutionZ
02/25/2017, 08:20 PM
Final updates to those who are still interested, the rocks are fully cured by now, 3 weeks from the day i start curing them. ammonia was 0 for the past 1 week with No3 increasing (feeding liquid rotifers), cycling was short probably because i was dosing AF Pro Bio S and the rocks were not entirely dead. Also saw some pods activity in the tank!

Some coralline are still surviving despite having 0 lights (the pail were covered 24/7), and pest algaes were no longer visible with the naked eye.

Yesterday i added another 5kg of semi-dead LRs (cured LR from a reefer but left outside for a day or 2), soaked them in the pail together with the rest and no3 shot up to 25ppm (from 5!) p04 shot up from 0.1 to 0.5ppm.

should be up for the actual rescape 2 weeks from now!

a rough scape.
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae93/fissiden/20170225_103648_zpslj2gibej.jpg (http://s961.photobucket.com/user/fissiden/media/20170225_103648_zpslj2gibej.jpg.html)

Joe0813
02/25/2017, 08:30 PM
i would have put the bristle worms back... bobbits would have gone down the toilet

CrayolaViolence
02/26/2017, 06:56 AM
i would have put the bristle worms back... bobbits would have gone down the toilet

Somehow this seems like the bad plot for a B rated movie. LOL


OP: I see now. So yeah, I guess if you can get live rock cheaper than dead, then go for it, however you want to dress the rock out. But like I said, there are people (especially here in the states) that pay extra $$$ for all the icky things a lot of people deem as pests. Granted, I would not pay for bristle worms, I don't like them, but I do know they serve a purpose so I only population control them in my heavily fed tank. I think I pulled out 20 six inches last week and tossed them in the garbage.

GQuinn
02/26/2017, 10:38 AM
Final updates to those who are still interested

a rough scape.
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae93/fissiden/20170225_103648_zpslj2gibej.jpg (http://s961.photobucket.com/user/fissiden/media/20170225_103648_zpslj2gibej.jpg.html)




The proposed new scape looks nice.