View Full Version : A challenge: can you?
As a NTTH person, you likely sit by your tank for hours; and fuss and futz and want Something To Do.
Let's make it interesting.
Got your test kits? Salinity/temperature/Nitrate/ammonia/alkalinity/calcium/magnesium:---and want to try a skill challenge?
Test daily. (for one thing, your skills at that operation will improve)
Report your numbers in this thread every day or every few days, whatever you can manage. See how many days running you can hold it.
Your target numbers:
salinity 1.024 to 1.026 (a fish-only can be 1.019)
temperature: 78 to 80
ammonia: 0
nitrate: under 20
alkalinity: 7.9 to 8.3
calcium: 420: this is really important for a reef. Fish-only may be down as far as 400, but 420 makes an easier balance.
magnesium: 1350 or a shade higher; no lower than 1200.
The object is to see how many days in a row you can keep all this spot on.
The prize in general is a tank that's going to have far fewer problems.
[target numbers are set for fairly easy balance. You may figure if you are badly 'out' on any of these, you may have sickened a pretend-fish. just say: 'all on target' or post the one that's 'off'.
Now: how to cope with a sinking but not 'out' number. If your alk is falling, you need to check your mg, which is closely related to it. Bring the mg up to snuff; test in 8 hours; THEN dose the alk buffer, to bring the alk back stable; the calcium is related to both of these. Sounds like a balancing act, right?
It is. And the point of balance is the magnesium: if it's in the zone, the other two readings will behave. If you learn that from this exercise, your life in this hobby will be much easier.
If you have a controller, cool. It's an allowable 'cheat'. If you don't, also cool: I've run for decades with no controller, just tests and hand-dosing---and kalk. I'll explain that: if you add 2 tsp per gallon of kalk to your topoff reservoir and your mg level is 1350 or so, the kalk will supply alk and cal so long as the reservoir holds out. It's another 'cheat' and very easy to do.
I will happily answer questions like: my nitrate is 30---what should I do? and other problems, too.
TokiHacker
02/27/2017, 10:49 AM
Cool!
Day 1:
salinity 1.027
temperature: 79
ammonia: 0
nitrate: 0-5
alkalinity: 8.0
calcium: 440
magnesium: 1400
Bump the alk just a tad and get that salinity down a couple of .000ths. Your other readings are ok: cal will eventually come into line as will mg: these things get used.
swiftvision
02/27/2017, 03:27 PM
As still a somewhat newbie....I don't know how you would do this.
It takes me HOURS to test my tank and I don't even cover all the params.
I have to schedule when I'll be doing testing.
I don't know what you're doing, but here's my protocols. Have a babyfood-jar sized bottle perfectly clean, dedicated to picking up tank water.
Fill it.
Clear a workspace. use your refractometer (must have for your sanity) and get a reading: less than a minute. Wipe down with soft cloth and be sure to empty bulb-tube.
test alk: Salifert test. draw up water in syringe. shoot into provided testtube, add 4 drops blue fluid; fill syringe, shoot it into testtube watching for red flash; if you see a flash slow down and shoot it a lot, lot, slower. Always look DOWN into tube and have tube against white background. YOu can rush the drops until you see a flash that goes away. Then when you've got it all pink, look at the chart. Testing time, about 2 minutes if that.
Calcium: a little more complex, about 4 minutes.
Magnesium: observe your wait times on each step. It's futzier. About 4 minutes.
Nitrate: again, timed: under 5 minutes. You don't have to run that one daily.
Ammonia: a dip strip is enough. Should be zero. Time: 10 seconds.
Always rinse and dry your vials and be careful not to leave residue that can screw the next test. People have read sky high salinity because they forgot to void the last collection from the tube and it dried there.
If you're taking an hour to do your tests, I'd suggest going over to Salifert on alk-cal-mg, and getting a dip strip test for ammonia. The whole routine should take very little over 15 minutes at that, and less if you're adept. The problem with a more exhaustive regimen with tests that are taking that long is that it becomes a real drag and doesn't get done often enough. Another hint: if it says slow stir, no shake, just hold the test-tube in the same hand as you uncap bottles and prepare stuff like the syringe. It's enough movement to do the mixing they want. An egg timer is also an asset.
swiftvision
02/27/2017, 06:50 PM
I have all red sea prokits.
ALK, CAL, MAG take about 20min each at least.
1 drop shake.....1 drop shake.....
Phosphate has a 15 min wait time so does Ammonia.
Plus time to clean everything before and after I test.
I have bought many items to make testing quick and all were inaccurate.
I have a bottle of RODI and a dump bucket.
Each syringe is filled with fresh water tank water. I would not use a single container of water from the tank, but that is me. I flush everything with rodi before, durring, and after tests.
roostertech
02/27/2017, 07:22 PM
My feeling about each test:
Alk: hanna, 30s and done, I feel like a scientist with the syringe
Calc and Mag: red sea kit, is it blue, is it really blue, crap did i go past?
Nitrate: can't tell between 2 and 5 (low range, sideway) for the life of me
Phosphorus ULR: hanna, clock start, 2mins to get the damn powder in and mixed before checker turn off! tap tap, ah crap some powder spill out, the label says poisonous...
Salinity: apex probe, 0s, wee, occasional check with Milwaukee
texdoc77
02/27/2017, 11:27 PM
I'll play along, just for the record my numbers are out of whack and I know this. I am slowly bringing them back online...
Temp: 80
Salinity: 1.021 working up about 0.001 per day until 1.026
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 0
Phosphate: 0.04, running chaeto and phosguard, filter my mysis feeds
Alkalinity: 7.8, up from 7.0 on my way to 9
Calcium: 350 up from 310 on my way to 420
Mg: 1180 up from 1000 on my way to 1300
texdoc77
02/27/2017, 11:31 PM
1 drop shake.....1 drop shake.....
Shake as you drop, the color change happens fast and you should have an idea of when it will happen based on your last test. I mean you should be able to squirt at LEAST 0.3 ml in there before worrying about a color change. The KH is stupid simple, add 10ml add the KH reagent, anything over 3 mins and you're doing it wrong. Sk8r is right, the more you do this the quicker it will be. I can do kh, ca and mg in 15 mins, rinse and place on a paper plate with a towel ready for tomorrow... The more you practice the quicker (and more accurate/precise) you will become
YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!!!:bounce1:
texdoc77
02/28/2017, 08:53 AM
OK, tested this morning and my new parameters are:
Temp: 80
Salinity: 1.021 no change overnight, may dose a little saltwater this afternoon
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 0
Phosphate: 0.04, working with redseakev to determine how or if to dose nopox
Alkalinity: 9.2, now to see how much it dips without adding any this evening
Calcium: 395, almost there
Mg: 1160, so evidently the old kent's mg I had is not helping much... I will use the BRS I mixed Sunday evening tonight to help boost Mg
kevin21
02/28/2017, 09:38 AM
I have had success raising mag with kent tech-m for what its worth
drop and shake? The real reason is not the mixing so much as the fear you'll overshoot your result. Try this. First of all, keep a log. If you know yesterday's reading you know how much of the syringe will go in before there's ANY likelihood of a reaction. So just put in a goodly shot. Then slow down to drop-by-drop. If you doubt the accuracy of this procedure, do it the long way and do it with this shortcut and see if your results don't match. I'm pretty sure this is a valid way to proceed: I learned the trick on an actual research science project for which I was a major pan-washer and sometime test-runner. Many reactions produce a color flash before the actual reaction: in Salifert alk, for instance, you get a blue liquid in the tube which flashes a brief curl of bright pink; each shake as you approach the result dissipates it and the color goes away. When you get to the result, the pink stays.
That's your result.
I devised this post, incidentally, just as a way to walk people through a testing regime that will turn up their problems and cure them, ideally before they have fish and corals; I didn't realize there was so much anxiety about the tests---and if I can clear that up, so that people can sail through their tests through practice and logging with no sweat, I will be very happy.
If you have questions or problems, I understand: those instructions are unnecessarily meticulous. If it says 'wait' or 'shake' and gives a DURATION OF TIME, be meticulous about that! but if it just says add a drop, you can add multiple drops if you're nowhere near the previous day's (week's) point of result yet!
texdoc77
02/28/2017, 10:24 AM
I have had success raising mag with kent tech-m for what its worth
This is what I have. I bought it for a bryopsis outbreak that I cured by buying a new tank :D LOL. Anyway it is pretty old, maybe 1.5 yrs. The BRS Mag solution was difficult to make (one of the powders was caked together and I had to scrape it and ripped my knuckles up on the razor sharp opening) and I did not want to use all of it bringing the mag to normal. However, at this point I will use it tonight to do just that.
texdoc77
02/28/2017, 10:25 AM
I devised this post,
Does this make you devious?
My deviosity rating is possibly higher than some.
Seriously, BECAUSE I had lab training, water tests were an oh-sure, for me. I looked at the instructions, immediately had a fair idea what the critical elements were (accuracy of measure, collecting the sample BEFORE you dump some dose in the water, and accurate time-measurement in waiting for a reaction)---but to someone who's never met the process, all the instructions seem to carry equal weight, and it's downright daunting.
One of the most important things to understand, re syringes, is that you're measuring the amount of LIQUID, so be sure that the plunger is not part of your measure: always measure only the liquid, not the plunger. Simple concept, but if something a third of an inch long is taking up part of the measurement, it's going to throw your results.
Anybody have any more questions about the test procedures? Be sure and rinse the vials. Yes, you can return unused liquid to the bottle. And develop the habit of capping the bottles when not in use. It's a hair-pulling moment when your hand nudges a featherweight bottle and it spills 18.00 worth of essential fluid over the counter.
swiftvision
02/28/2017, 12:10 PM
OK, actually timed myself last night:
1 hour 20 minutes to find out the following:
CAL: 310
ALK: 7.3
MAG: 1160
Nitrates: 0
Nitrites: 0
Phos: 0.02
PH: 8.2
Salinity: 1.021
Temp: 78.6
Looks like my new calcium reactor isn't working/keeping up (been up about 2-3 weeks now). Maybe 6.8PH in the reaction chamber isn't low enough. Also need to bump up my salinity.
Tank is 4 months old.....I've never changed the water!
BTW: I do keep a log.
Good on the log. I gather by your pic (and reactor) you keep corals. I'd bump those things up a bit. Water changes replace the trace elements that slowly get used up: 'old tank syndrome' is where the tank gets ghosty problems with growth, and that may be a trace element shortage. Your salinity is low for corals. 1.024 is what most salt mixes provide. But again, test for several days until you've gotten a consistency of results: a correction based on an incorrect test result can really give you problems.
roostertech
02/28/2017, 07:46 PM
What do you guys use for measurement logging btw? So far I like Apex Fusion's pretty graphs and built in test kits conversion tables.
texdoc77
02/28/2017, 10:40 PM
What do you guys use for measurement logging btw? So far I like Apex Fusion's pretty graphs and built in test kits conversion tables.
I use aquarimate, I have an apex but do not use their parameter settings, not sure why...
texdoc77
03/01/2017, 09:39 AM
New Parameters for this morning:
Temp: 80
Salinity: 1.023 I did dose some salt water
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 0
Phosphate: 0.04, did not test this morning
Alkalinity: 9.3, was 9.2 yesterday, likely variance in testing did not dose last night
Calcium: 475, went a little over but still in line and it should come down
Mg: 1520, apparently the kent Tech M had settled to the bottom and I did not shake well before dosing the day before. I added the same amount last night and got this little bump. Definitely over my end point, but I don't think detrimental, all sea life doing well
So now to see what they do over the next week with just my AWC running...
TokiHacker
03/01/2017, 09:44 AM
I use aquarimate, I have an apex but do not use their parameter settings, not sure why...
Notepad and pen. lol. But I am actually going to move to the aquarimate. That looks cool
Lol---I'm so old-fashioned; I use a little notebook and pen kept with the testing supplies in a box.
I'm happy to see people making progress. It IS slow to correct a situation. I have the parameters listed in a sticky up top, should they be hard to ferret out of a thread. Keep your own records on your tank, and you'll begin to see visually how they change, how fast they change, and therefore you'll know what affects your tank---I also write down changes I've made in the tank---and how fast it affects it. It's sort of like learning the controls on a new car. Once you really know how your individual tank responds to doses, you'll begin to do it automatically.
Curiously so many people are antsy about corals and think a coral tank is hard, but as you get more adept at this, you may find they're a help: fish just swim along looking happy, then roll over when the situation goes catastrophic; but corals shrivel and look unhappy when things are mildly off, sort of like a warning saying "something's off! Test, please!" so you can fix it. You won't spend your lives testing daily or close to it, but establishing a regimen where you, say, test on a given day...that's going to save you a lot of lost fish and problems. Likewise---if you develop good habits like testing, dosing, then testing again in 8 hours, you will know whether you did enough or too much. Controllers and dosers are lovely, but basic knowledge of the hands-on chemistry will make sure the person running the machinery really, really understands what's going on chemically.
If you are dosing out-of-parameter water with a problem---you dose mag first (the chemical abbreviation is mg) to 'steady' the water. Then you dose dkh buffer, which solves the ph/alkalinity balance, until it's spot-on: the alkalinity governs the ability of calcium to dissolve properly. Then you dose the calcium last: muscle, bone, and shells all depend on calcium for action and durability: good calcium level means healthy fish, happy corals, and good skeleton and shells.
What I use: a refractometer, no particular brand; Salifert tests for alk, cal, mg; nitrate; and some ordinary swimming pool test strips for ammonia; I have the phosphate test but that's rarely an issue: if you have green algae, you have an excess of phosphate, but it's IN the algae so a test won't read it. I don't test that unless I start seeing green in the dt. Test it once and kind of know you can test it if you need to. For supplements I use Kent brand: Kent DKH Alkalinity Buffer; Kent Turbo Calcium; Kent Tech-M [mg] and, for kalk supplement in the ro/di reservoir, Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime --- no joke. It's lime, from limestone, a calcium provider. If you do not keep stony corals or clams you don't need kalk; but if you do, it's a very nice down-and-dirty way to feed them until kalk is no longer enough for them. THEN you go to a calcium reactor. You also don't dose kalk in a new tank: it's when you get two or three actively growing stony coral you find your parameters won't stay stable and the reason is the stony coral is sucking calcium like mad. Which is a good thing. THat's when you start using kalk.
ReeferDash
03/03/2017, 10:43 AM
Curiously so many people are antsy about corals and think a coral tank is hard, but as you get more adept at this, you may find they're a help: fish just swim along looking happy, then roll over when the situation goes catastrophic; but corals shrivel and look unhappy when things are mildly off, sort of like a warning saying "something's off! Test, please!" so you can fix it. You won't spend your lives testing daily or close to it, but establishing a regimen where you, say, test on a given day...that's going to save you a lot of lost fish and problems. Likewise---if you develop good habits like testing, dosing, then testing again in 8 hours, you will know whether you did enough or too much. Controllers and dosers are lovely, but basic knowledge of the hands-on chemistry will make sure the person running the machinery really, really understands what's going on chemically.
I love this about corals. They're really quit communicative for an animal that doesn't even have a brain, in their ways. I honestly don't do a broad range test on my water much at all; I listen to my coral. Even in complicated scenarios I'll just test for a few parameters. For example, if both my cespitularia and my clavularia are wilty, I know there is something off with my calcium, alkalinity or magnesium; so I'll just test for those three. If just my cespitularia is wilty, I know there's something wrong with my salinity, so I just read it. If only my montis look unhappy, I know there's too much nitrate or phosphate, so I read them; when my xenia get little curls of less expanded flesh on the ends of their tentacle-feather-tips and don't pulse with a consistent rhythm (per polyp) I know that my nutrients are too low and it's time to feed. Sometimes what they tell me isn't specific, but the solution is; for example, when my clavularia has droopy polyps or my red cyphastrea looks paler or splotchy then I know there's some kind of toxin in the water, I assume from allelopathic real estate warfare, and I just need to run carbon for a few days or do a water change, depending on the size of the tank (I keep a lot of picos too).
So for me, it's still important to pay attention to what's going on chemically, but I find that the corals themselves will tell you a lot about what you need to pay attention to, specifically. Of course, I'm also not keeping corals as finicky as acros, for whom daily stability is a lot more important than it is to even my montis.
ReeferDash
03/03/2017, 10:45 AM
Also, in retrospect I have to admit I only learned what the coral were telling me by doing a spectrum of tests every day, so Sk8r is definitely still right about the importance of regular testing.
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Elricsfate
03/03/2017, 10:51 AM
You know Sk8r, the first time I read this thread (right after you started it) I thought to myself "Yes! I will do this!" And each and every day since...I have failed to do it.
Pretty sure I can run these tests quicker than an hour twenty as one poster said it took, but it is still a bit of a time commitment. However, I do appreciate the fact that by issuing this challenge you have also challenged me to consider that time commitment, and the fact that I owe it not to myself, or my wife...or you. But, I owe it to the creatures whose lives rest solely in my hands, living in a tank of my making.
I am going to commit to posting in this thread with actual figures before I go to bed tonight. And should I find out that things are seriously out of whack...which may be what I am concerned about (ignorance is bliss...) I will suck it up and post them anyway.
Thanks for starting this.
bravo!
Proper light and proper water. There's very little MORE important, when it comes to the welfare and survival of the critters. If the water's off, things die. If it's really good, they grow and thrive.
Elricsfate
03/04/2017, 09:07 AM
SO last night got hectic, but I woke this morning and did this first thing.
And as I was reading the numbers I thought to myself..."Wow, am I about to get hammered!" lol Tank has fish in it, and no ammonia, but still shows nitrite...so I didn't cycle it properly. Anyway...here they are:
Temp 76.8
pH 7.97
Salinity 37.3 (1.026-1.027 at that temp)
Ammo: 0
Nitrite: .5
Nitrate: 10-20 (Hard to read the gradient)
dkh 11.7
Mag 1080
cal 320
For reference this tank has fish, the assorted CUC, and a few LPS/Softies (by a few I mean 8) Almost entirely Leathers and Mushrooms (little, teeny, tiny ones). However, the wife was using the internet again (gotta keep a better eye on that) and she saw something pretty. So surprise! A box arrived yesterday with one each of the following:
Purple Whip Gorgonian
Blueberry Sea Fan
Radioactive Dragon Eye Zoanthids
Not sure I was ready for them, though I agree with her that they are pretty. At this point though, all I can do is give it my best shot...
I will now assume the position... :uhoh3:
ReeferDash
03/04/2017, 12:29 PM
A box arrived yesterday with one each of the following:
Purple Whip Gorgonian
Blueberry Sea Fan
Radioactive Dragon Eye Zoanthids
Not sure I was ready for them, though I agree with her that they are pretty. At this point though, all I can do is give it my best shot...
I will now assume the position... :uhoh3:
Not sure if you've already done your research and found this, but that blueberry sea fan is not photosynthetic, and will need a lot of feeding; and even the purple sea whip, while photosynthetic, does best with supplemental plankton feeding.
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Temp 76.8---raise a degree
pH 7.97---ok: it fluctuates wildly during the day, rarely matters.
Salinity 37.3 (1.026-1.027 at that temp)
Ammo: 0
Nitrite: .5
Nitrate: 10-20 (Hard to read the gradient) water change will help sink that. 5 is better.
dkh 11.7: that's high. let it sink to 8.3, then raise the mg to 1350 and cal to 420 and see if it'll stabilize. It WILL fall with the mg below 1200, as it is.
Mag 1080
cal 320
Elricsfate
03/04/2017, 04:29 PM
Not sure if you've already done your research and found this, but that blueberry sea fan is not photosynthetic, and will need a lot of feeding; and even the purple sea whip, while photosynthetic, does best with supplemental plankton feeding.
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Indeed. I am aware. I have already bought food and concocted a delivery method.
As I said, I plan to give it my best shot. Success being far from guaranteed...but I have to do what I can. At the end of the day, getting the water straight is more of a challenge then simply feeding some corals. So, I am cautiously optimistic.
I have to say, I do think these things are pretty (in the pictures. The actual corals I currently have look like small sticks). So I hope I'm successful with them.
Elricsfate
03/04/2017, 04:31 PM
Temp 76.8---raise a degree
pH 7.97---ok: it fluctuates wildly during the day, rarely matters.
Salinity 37.3 (1.026-1.027 at that temp)
Ammo: 0
Nitrite: .5
Nitrate: 10-20 (Hard to read the gradient) water change will help sink that. 5 is better.
dkh 11.7: that's high. let it sink to 8.3, then raise the mg to 1350 and cal to 420 and see if it'll stabilize. It WILL fall with the mg below 1200, as it is.
Mag 1080
cal 320
I want to say that it is helpful to me (and I am sure others) to have you go point by point and suggest things.
As I know you know, starting out this can be a bit overwhelming. So I appreciate the inputs. I will do a WC, up the temp, and post here again in a day or two.
crabbydan
03/04/2017, 11:07 PM
Will join in tomorrow morning. SK8R... May I ask what test kits you use for each test? Not asking for debates on what the best kit/s are just curious what you use?
I use Salifert: numeric results for alk-cal-mg; nitrate is still color match. And past your cycle, pool test strips for the ammonia; if the strip reacts, that's enough to know---there's a problem.
crabbydan
03/05/2017, 07:56 PM
Ok I was shocked at my results and I admit I have not tested in months and by the look of the exp dates on my test bottles maybe a year.
All test with API except Salinity is with a refractometer
and Mag was with salifert test says expired 12/2016
salinity 1.025
temperature: 77 to 78
ammonia: 0 - 0.25 had a turbo snail recently die and omg smell.
Nitrite 0
nitrate: 5.0
alkalinity: 10dkh or 179 ppm KH
calcium: 340
magnesium: 890
PH 8.0
My area AZ has very hard water, my water softner died and I am sure this has an impact even though I use RODI with an extra sediment filter on the front and an extra DI chamber on the end.
Side notes I am going to get some new test kits as my api kits are all over a year old.
Tank info 105 dsa.
Snails no crabs. one bta, 12 headed duncan, small 2 headed torch. several zoas. Duncan grows started as 3 heads everything else stays about the same except one kind of green zoa grows everywhere. Sump has refugium section sand live rock little chateo little red cyno. Skimmer vertex omega 150. lights 2 kessil 360w.
Fish and inverts; 3 peppermint shrimp, 1 cleaner shrimp, pistol shrimp and orange spotted goby, green clown goby, blue neon striped goby, captive bred coral beauty no more than 1 inch long, royal gramma, ocellaris clown.
Also I am happy with my tank but do want to take it to the next level for corals. Not sure where to start first on fixing that mag, cal and is kh off too? should that be a new thread? also pics to follow.
crabbydan
03/05/2017, 08:10 PM
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crabbydan
03/05/2017, 08:19 PM
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Crabbydan, your alk is an issue for softies; and here's where you can make a choice: the BALANCE in which your water stays 'set' for considerable periods with no futzing relies on the trilateral connection, Alk, Cal, Mg being as I stated earlier. HOWEVER, neither fish nor soft coral USE the cal and mg up as fast as stony coral and clams, so you can squeak by just watching the alk---but honestly,getting it ALL set right is going to hold you for a long time in balance, so that that alk is going to stay put nicely until the mg runs down, which takes a long time with softies or fish-onlies. It's a choice. My advice is go the whole nine yards and get everything in balance because in the long run it's less work.
And watch the expiration date on those tests. Some tests when expired (alk) can read wrong and really mess things up.
crabbydan
03/05/2017, 11:02 PM
So where do I start? I have read many post some I think by you that say get mag fixed first then stabilize by doing x y and or z. So do I start a help me post to get everything in check? Assuming after I get some updated test kits. Thoughts?
juniorrocketdad
03/06/2017, 06:59 AM
This is what I have. I bought it for a bryopsis outbreak that I cured by buying a new tank :D LOL. Anyway it is pretty old, maybe 1.5 yrs. The BRS Mag solution was difficult to make (one of the powders was caked together and I had to scrape it and ripped my knuckles up on the razor sharp opening) and I did not want to use all of it bringing the mag to normal. However, at this point I will use it tonight to do just that.
I used the brs stuff too and one of them was rock solid so I just use a drill, put it on the hammer mode with a large drill bit and it chops it right up
The supplements (alk, cal, mg) come with instructions on the containers. Follow those instructions; and when they say teaspoon, they do not mean the teaspoon you eat with: get a dedicate set of kitchen measuring spoons (cheap plastic) and when you measure a teaspoon, level the powder off to the rim of the spoon: a knife blade can do this. Likewise 'cup' means measuring cup. Same rule.
Fix the mg first, then the alk, then the cal.
Always keep the lid on powders of any sort: and keep it tight. If salt or a buffer has turned to a brick, it may have ruined the buffer capacity (its usefulness in chemistry). If you do open a fresh container and find it hardened, take it back to the store and demand one that isn't. As with things in your fridge, chemicals can expire in usefulness---due to moisture.
Diana A
03/06/2017, 05:09 PM
salinity 1.027
temperature: 76
ammonia: 0
nitrate: 2
alkalinity: 9.3
calcium: 440
magnesium: 1440
mcgyvr
03/06/2017, 05:21 PM
I sure hope this doesn't end in someone trying to correct their tank parameters to match the numbers that Sk8r suggests and doing more harm than good...
There are plenty of reefers having very successful tanks with higher alkalinity levels,etc....
If someone does attempt to adjust their parameters please do so in a manner that will not cause your tanks inhabitants to undergo a faster change than they can accept/be happy with.. There are numerous posts on acceptable daily change rates of these to attempt to avoid stress..
Maybe Sk8r wants to collect that info here for those that think they need to change something but aren't aware of how fast/slow these can be changed safely..
Or maybe it should be clearly pointed out that "stability" is more important than a specific number so long as you stay within acceptable ranges as define here,etc.. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/
crabbydan
03/06/2017, 05:28 PM
I'm not worried yet about overdosing.I can't even understand the directions to mix a batch of MAG - P to even start. I am pretty confident at this point I am not smarter than a 5th grader.
Diana A
03/06/2017, 05:38 PM
......Or maybe it should be clearly pointed out that "stability" is more important than a specific number so long as you stay within acceptable ranges as define here,etc.. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/
thank you! interesting read
crabbydan
03/06/2017, 06:21 PM
I am not doing anything until I get a new test kit as I am using reef crystals and change 10 to 12 gallons every week on a 105 tank which after rock, substrate etc is likely 90 gallons. Can I really have a mag so low (890)?
texdoc77
03/06/2017, 06:25 PM
I used the brs stuff too and one of them was rock solid so I just use a drill, put it on the hammer mode with a large drill bit and it chops it right up
LOL good idea..
mcgyvr
03/06/2017, 06:27 PM
I'm not worried yet about overdosing.I can't even understand the directions to mix a batch of MAG - P to even start. I am pretty confident at this point I am not smarter than a 5th grader.
:lmao:
awww come on its not that hard...
elescher
03/06/2017, 07:06 PM
My anxiety with testing using Salifert is I am never sure if I have added the correct amount of 'powder' with the little red spoon. A picture would be helpful.
crabbydan
03/06/2017, 07:25 PM
I am just getting too old for this new math. I don't understand why they have you measure things out in teaspoons and ounces then they tell you to dose in grams and milliliters. Seriously did the government write these instructions? I actually stopped and decided to work on my taxes which is much easier.
Elricsfate
03/07/2017, 08:39 AM
So now I have a question Sk8r.
I moved all my frags to a 20. This will allow me to have a better handle on the corals in a smaller, more easily (ie., less money) controlled environment. Rather than trying to make adjustments to a 180.
The readings I posted the other day are from my 180, which is now fish only. So, having made the temp adjustment I should be good, as the other readings (alk, cal, mag) aren't important for fish.
BUT...when I setup the 20 with freshly mixed water and tested all the parameters to get a baseline, I got the following:
Alk 10.5 Cal 350 Mag 1280
Earlier you said my Alk was a little high (on my previous readings). But now it appears that my alk is just naturally a little high, without adding anything to the water. So what (if anything) can I or should I do about that?
crabbydan
03/07/2017, 10:57 AM
I am hoping someone can check my math. I have dry mix of brightwell magnesioum p. I have mag levels in an estimate of 90 gallons of water to raise 100ppm per day or every other day. Instructions say make a stock batch 4 teaspoons which equals 20 grams into 8oz of fresh water. I can do this easy. Now the instructions say 1ml of this stock batch will increase 1 gallon of water by 6ppm. So if I have 90 gallons of water I need 90 ml of this stock to raise my mag level 6ppm. I was advised to never raise the mag more than100ppm per day is this correct? Also my stock solution is 8oz which I believe is 236ml if I addd this entire solution in essence I should be raising my tank mag levels only 15.73. 236 ml of solutions divided by 90 gallons = 2.62 ml per gallon 2.62ml x 6ppm expected increase is a total of 15.73. So to raise my level 100ppm I would need to do this 6.3 times. Does this sound correct? Also I plan to test my next batch of water change water and see what my iO reef mix is really giving me.
Oh, my, you're asking the world's worst mathematician. I can say, practically speaking, that if you're low in an element, you don't try to dose it all at once. You bring it up bit at a time. Now, a milliliter is not a very large measurement. I'd suggest you use a syringe or milliliter-marked measure to determine the daily allowable dose in a more convenient measure---a plastic cup marked on the side with magic marker, which will always be your magnesium-cup-dose. That way you can just pour a solution to that mark and know you are safe adding that much.
I do this also for my saltwater mixing: I know that one precise gallon of salt mixes to a strength of 1.024 salinity in 32 gallons of ro/di, so I have measures marked for that---it saves you forgetting where you are in counting itty-bitty measures. Filling a can to 32 gallon mark, then dumping one gallon of dry salt in is a LOT better than using cups of salt.
That said, with your DOSING CHEMICALS, like cal and mg and so on---add what consitutes a day's proper dose, then wait 8 hours to test again to see what that did to your level. The reason you wait 8 hours is that some things dissolve and proliferate slowly through your water supply. If you test too soon you wont' get an accurate measure of conditions.
That help?
crabbydan
03/07/2017, 02:28 PM
You are the second worst mathematician because I am the worst. I think I got the math dumbed down for me but still seems like an awful lot of chemicals that need to be added and scares the begeezez out of me to start thinking about it.
Just test your tank between doses and you'll be fine. Most things have quite a bit of leeway when diluted in the whole water of a tank system. Just breathe deeply, use a calculator to doublecheck your math, decimals matter, and if you go slow you'll not do anything too extreme.
texdoc77
03/07/2017, 09:22 PM
decimals matter
I was told there would be no math
Also this thread is becoming hilarious... I have been testing daily by the way, just not posting. Also I have begun logging my numbers on my apex app and I much prefer it to the aquarimate, FYI.
anthonys51
03/07/2017, 09:38 PM
My feeling about each test:
Alk: hanna, 30s and done, I feel like a scientist with the syringe
Calc and Mag: red sea kit, is it blue, is it really blue, crap did i go past?
Nitrate: can't tell between 2 and 5 (low range, sideway) for the life of me
Phosphorus ULR: hanna, clock start, 2mins to get the damn powder in and mixed before checker turn off! tap tap, ah crap some powder spill out, the label says poisonous...
Salinity: apex probe, 0s, wee, occasional check with Milwaukee
Too funny. First 4 times I used Hanna phosphorus ulr it went off too. Now I finally figured out how to cut the bag and only spill a little.
Salifert nitrates and phosphates I always laugh when people can tell between 2 & 5 or .03 and .1. Like yes this shade of light light light blue is it
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
crabbydan
03/07/2017, 09:59 PM
FYI New mag test kit arrived today well Amazon was out of stock so paid 2 dollars more at LFS.I should try to keep my money local anyway. MAG tested today at 1050 so new test better results. Will test again tomorrow before I do any mad scientist stuff... MU HA HA!
fishkeeprian
03/08/2017, 06:51 AM
Using the salifet Alk test kit how pink does the solution need to be before you determine your number. Mine goes to a light purple then flashes pink. I hold a piece of plain white paper behind until I think I have hit the desired pink colour but then when I look at it without the white paper it seems purpleish to me.
Elricsfate, first test your ro/di water. Be sure your TDS is zero, ie, that your filters are all good.
Then the culprit COULD be your salt mix: brands differ in levels: I went to Instant Ocean because Oceanic was piling up magnesium---every water change adding more as critters were not using it fast enough. Oceanic is great with a packed stony reef, but this tank is not so populated. 10 alk is not horrid. I'd just run with it, thinking that sooner or later the frags will start eating and numbers will move more rapidly downward. Go ahead and bring the calcium up and just keep an eye on the mg...as it drifts down past 1200, the alk will start to sink and then you can balance things. Do at least weekly tests until this all sorts out. And you might put one fish into your frag tank, a little guy, and maybe some crabs, with very light feeding, so that the poo level supplies the corals with nutrient.
Elricsfate
03/08/2017, 01:19 PM
Elricsfate, first test your ro/di water. Be sure your TDS is zero, ie, that your filters are all good.
Then the culprit COULD be your salt mix: brands differ in levels: I went to Instant Ocean because Oceanic was piling up magnesium---every water change adding more as critters were not using it fast enough. Oceanic is great with a packed stony reef, but this tank is not so populated. 10 alk is not horrid. I'd just run with it, thinking that sooner or later the frags will start eating and numbers will move more rapidly downward. Go ahead and bring the calcium up and just keep an eye on the mg...as it drifts down past 1200, the alk will start to sink and then you can balance things. Do at least weekly tests until this all sorts out. And you might put one fish into your frag tank, a little guy, and maybe some crabs, with very light feeding, so that the poo level supplies the corals with nutrient.
Thanks for the advice. I have the BRS RODI with TDS meters going in and coming out. So I know the TDS is 0. The odd part is, my LFS didn't have Reef Crystals when I last went, so I made up a 50g barrel using regular IO...which is what I filled this tank with.
I will do as you say. Any suggestions on a fish? I'm not going through the hassle of getting one out of the 180, so I'll need to just buy a new one. I'm not particular, as this is more a function than form type arrangement. :-)
A twenty---with sand? Without? You could deal with the very smallest fish, or just some snails and hermits: poo is poo. Gobies need sand. Blennies need rocks. If it's just a frag rack, maybe a sixline wrasse, small and cranky little fellow, but alone, he could probably be fine.
crabbydan
03/08/2017, 09:13 PM
I use instant ocean reef crystals and just realized on the box that if you mix your salt to 1.024 vs 1.025 you have different mag levels. I always mix to 1.025 should i worry about trying to keep my salinity higher or lower for the sake of starting mag levels?
Elricsfate
03/09/2017, 10:50 AM
A twenty---with sand? Without? You could deal with the very smallest fish, or just some snails and hermits: poo is poo. Gobies need sand. Blennies need rocks. If it's just a frag rack, maybe a sixline wrasse, small and cranky little fellow, but alone, he could probably be fine.
Just a glass box. No sand, and only the rocks the frags are on...which are small as well.
THen I'd go with hermits and turbo snails. They'll crawl on corals, but their tiny feet have almost no mass---never have seen any damage from them.
Crabby, in answer to your question, a tank EVAPORATES water, thus becoming more salty, saltier than critters may like. So if you set your salinity at 1.024 you've got .02 leeway of saltiness before you hit bad territory. If you set it at 1.025, any evaporation will see you at 1.026, which is the upper limit of 'good'. So it depends on how good your ATO is: if it keeps it right on the mark, it's ok to go to 1.025; if it's apt to wait longer before topping off, being at a higher mark already may not give you enough leeway. Make sense? Salinity rises as evaporation drops the water level: salt becomes more concentrated.
crabbydan
03/11/2017, 09:12 PM
Thanks, I have a pretty solid ATO on my main tank (Tunze) the more expensive one with the eye thing. Salinity is the one stat I have no issues keeping on the money and consistent. I also use a fractometer before and after every water change each week. So I am starting a spreadsheet and tracking everything and everything I do starting this weekend. Time to go deeper down that rabbit hole.
crabbydan
03/17/2017, 10:03 PM
FYI, After a water change and getting a new test kit mag tested at 1130. Getting a new Cal test tomorrow since i just got paid.
crabbydan
03/22/2017, 11:37 PM
I decided to play the game and get my tank to a state where I know it will be better for fish and corals. As I rarely tested after cycling and what corals I do have just seem to linger and never really grow or glow.
3/17 DKH 9.7 MAG 1130 CAL 355 Salt 1.025 Temp 77-79 as i get an overnight flux. Added 150ML of Kent M
3/18 DKH 9.9 MAG 1160 CAL 355 Salt 1.025 Temp 77-79 added 200ML 24hr later Kent M
3/19 DKH 9.8 MAG 1160 CAL 350 Salt 1.025 Temp 77-79 added 150ML 24hr later Kent M
3/20 DKH 9.9 MAG 1250 CAL 345 Salt 1.025 Temp 77-79 added nothing for 2 days
3/22 DKH 10 MAG 1130 CAL 355 Salt 1.025 Temp 77-79
Tested ammonia at 0 each day with an old test kit. Did not check phos as I know its there from algae growth in sump and a couple DT places. Nitrite 0 Nitrate 5-15 depending on shade of yellow on old test kit.
Ok so from this exercise can my mag really drop that much in 2 days?
Also did I hear someone somewhere say fix mag first once it is in the right place fix DKH and then fix cal last. Is this true? Also how would I bring DKH down? Last what is the best way to raise Cal if I can ever get my mag stable?
Elricsfate
03/23/2017, 06:10 AM
You did in fact hear "someone" (Sk8) say to fix Mag first. :-)
I also seem to have naturally high dkh. It runs around 10 even when I haven't added anything to the water. Not sure if this is a problem, or if the corals will just consume it and grow unti they reac a point where they are reducing it by enough for me to need to start adding it.
I won't presume to step into the expert's shoes here, but the "best" way to increase calcium would likely depend on how much money you have top spend. I would imagine the cheapest effective way to raise it would be to simply, manually, add calcium (available from BRS and many other places).
YOu may be using a brand of salt that has high mg. Look into that. Oceanic has sky high levels, which is nice in a 'packed' reef, but not when you have only a couple of frags that aren't feeding much.
That is correct. Mg first. Then alk. Then cal.
A cheap and easy way to increase cal is to use kalk. Use supplements hand dosed to bring calcium to 420, then put 2 tsp per gallon of kalk powder (Mrs Wages Pickling Lime is real cheap! and works!) into your topoff water, stir it once, lid it (use sponge for a gasket on the lid) and let it be. As it enters your tank, the alkalinity of the water allows it to dissolve, and the magnesium content of the water supports the alkalinity and lets it stay stable. The corals get fed, and you didn't have to outlay big bucks for a controller or doser. This is pretty well the way the ocean does it: the calcium carbonate of old coral dissolves in the seawater and feeds new corals.
In non-growth of corals, look to a) stable water quality b) physical stability (is the frag firmly mounted: they don't like wobble) and c) lighting.
crabbydan
03/23/2017, 10:48 AM
So is the mag drop from 3/20 to 3/22 normal. I always thought mag depletion was low and slow?
Also where do you get your mrs wages amazon local store? Any recommendations on an original Kalk additive to get up to par before going the top off mrs wages route.
I use Kent Turbo Calcium to get up to level. I get Mrs. Wages from the grocery store during canning season and from Amazon at other times.
Levels can drop precipitately but the first suspicion is a test irregularity---ie, a mistake.
crabbydan
03/23/2017, 12:11 PM
Working from home so for my lunch break decided to go test mag again. Result with new siefert kit was 1170. So better result but still a drop from previous tests. I planned to test for the next 2 weeks straight as I try to get a handle on water quality. Thanks for your challenge and shared knowledge so far......
Elricsfate
04/05/2017, 12:10 PM
As a NTTH person, you likely sit by your tank for hours; and fuss and futz and want Something To Do.
Let's make it interesting.
Got your test kits? Salinity/temperature/Nitrate/ammonia/alkalinity/calcium/magnesium:---and want to try a skill challenge?
Test daily. (for one thing, your skills at that operation will improve)
Report your numbers in this thread every day or every few days, whatever you can manage. See how many days running you can hold it.
Your target numbers:
salinity 1.024 to 1.026 (a fish-only can be 1.019)
temperature: 78 to 80
ammonia: 0
nitrate: under 20
alkalinity: 7.9 to 8.3
calcium: 420: this is really important for a reef. Fish-only may be down as far as 400, but 420 makes an easier balance.
magnesium: 1350 or a shade higher; no lower than 1200.
The object is to see how many days in a row you can keep all this spot on.
The prize in general is a tank that's going to have far fewer problems.
[target numbers are set for fairly easy balance. You may figure if you are badly 'out' on any of these, you may have sickened a pretend-fish. just say: 'all on target' or post the one that's 'off'.
Now: how to cope with a sinking but not 'out' number. If your alk is falling, you need to check your mg, which is closely related to it. Bring the mg up to snuff; test in 8 hours; THEN dose the alk buffer, to bring the alk back stable; the calcium is related to both of these. Sounds like a balancing act, right?
It is. And the point of balance is the magnesium: if it's in the zone, the other two readings will behave. If you learn that from this exercise, your life in this hobby will be much easier.
If you have a controller, cool. It's an allowable 'cheat'. If you don't, also cool: I've run for decades with no controller, just tests and hand-dosing---and kalk. I'll explain that: if you add 2 tsp per gallon of kalk to your topoff reservoir and your mg level is 1350 or so, the kalk will supply alk and cal so long as the reservoir holds out. It's another 'cheat' and very easy to do.
I will happily answer questions like: my nitrate is 30---what should I do? and other problems, too.
I some level of phosphate allowable, or should it be 0 at all times, period?
SOme is good if you have blennies or other fish that eat algae and rely on it. If you're simultaneously trying to keep sps, which likes it least, that can be a problem. If on the other hand you have lps or softies, they don't mind a small amount, and frog and candycane even seem to like that bit.
Elricsfate
04/05/2017, 12:39 PM
SOme is good if you have blennies or other fish that eat algae and rely on it. If you're simultaneously trying to keep sps, which likes it least, that can be a problem. If on the other hand you have lps or softies, they don't mind a small amount, and frog and candycane even seem to like that bit.
As I am in the midst of trying to bring my tank into a set of stable, well-defined parameters, can you define "a small amount"?
I've decided to take all of my frags and put them in my 20g, and leave them there for a good long while. I had intended my 180 to be a FOWLR tank, but my wife and I got all wide-eyed in a store one day and wound up with some corals. After struggling for a bit I have decided to move them into a smaller tank where I can control the parameters more easily while I gain experience.
For the most part I have some leathers, xenia, GSP, and a paly (that I really like!) So I'm trying to figure where to settle on the parameters. I am awaiting a new hanna test kit, but right now on my Red Sea it appears my water is either .08 or.16 (hard to tell the difference on the Red Sea). That's fresh out of the RODI (a whole different thread and issue I am working on).
Bottom line, in a softie/LPS tank what should I shoot for?
crabbydan
04/13/2017, 06:17 PM
Ok this thread really got me going and I started a spreadsheet as follows;
Date MAG CAL DKH PH Salt nitrate nitrite phos Actions
Goal 1250-1350 400-500 7-11 8-12 8.1-9.3 1.025
3/17/17 1130 350 9.7 1.025 added 150 ml kent M
3/18/17 1160 1.025 200ml kent m
3/19/17 1160 1.025 150ml kent m
3/20/17 1250 1.025
3/22/17 1130 355 10 8.3 1.025 200ml kent m
3/23/17 1170 1.025
3/25/17 1200 1.025
3/26/17 WC WC WC WC WC water change / add scrubber / cleaned sump
3/27/17 1170 390 10.2 8 1.025 added 200 ml kent m
3/28/17 1275 380 10 1.025
3/29/17 1250 375 10 1.025 added 150ml kent m
3/30/17 1320 375 9.9 1.025
4/2/17 WC WC WC WC WC water change
4/9/17 1230 355 9.9 1.025
4/11/17 1300 1.025 added 150ml kent m
4/13/17 1330 375 9.9 8 1.025 added 150ml kent m
Once I get the mag to stabalize i want to raise my calc and then maintain it. I bought some Kent Turbo Calcium. Im getting lost on using this.
The product label says mix 1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon per gallon mix and dose.
The calculator at http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html says
380 to 420
Product Required = 35.6 grams; 1.2 oz; approx 7.1 tsp
Warnings =Dissolve it in RO/DI or distilled water before dosing and do not dose all at once. Although it may be ok to do so, Do not increase more than 25 ppm per day. Dose 1/3 to 1/2 and the next day test. Check your levels and then dose another portion.
So is this saying add 7.1 tsp to a gallon mix it and dose that over 2 to 3 days? the product label just says per gallon and neither really tell you any details. Of course I am doing nothing till i research and get more advice. So send me some advice?
Onc ei am done raising it I do have pickling lime to maintain but not doing that untill i get this figured out.
That would be good.
Re ElricsFate's question---an amount in fractions of one, or an amount that gives you enough algae to keep a blenny, if you have a blenny.
crabbydan
04/14/2017, 12:50 PM
i want to raise my calc and then maintain it. I bought some Kent Turbo Calcium to raise it and ms wages to maintain it.
Im getting lost on using the first producr kent turbo calc.
The product label says mix 1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon per gallon mix and dose.
The calculator at http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html says
to raise from 380 to 420
Product Required = 35.6 grams; 1.2 oz; approx 7.1 tsp
Warnings =Dissolve it in RO/DI or distilled water before dosing and do not dose all at once. Although it may be ok to do so, Do not increase more than 25 ppm per day. Dose 1/3 to 1/2 and the next day test. Check your levels and then dose another portion.
So is this saying add 7.1 tsp to a gallon mix it and dose that over 2 to 3 days? the product label just says per gallon and neither really tell you any details.
Any advice out there on people who have used kent turbo and the reef calculation link listed?
bnumair
04/14/2017, 02:44 PM
Date temp salinity pH Amm Nit Nitrate phos cal alk mag
10-Feb-17 80.5 1.025 8.00 0 0 25 0.02 500 4.65 1300
12-Feb-17 79.6 1.025 8.06 n/a n/a 15 0.12 500 11.40 1300
13-Feb-17 77.8 1.025 7.95 n/a n/a 15 0.03 500 6.60 1300
16-Feb-17 77.7 1.025 7.80 n/a n/a 15 0.08 500 7.30 1300
19-Feb-17 79 1.025 8.20 n/a n/a 10 0.09 500 6.50 1300
23-Feb-17 79.9 1.026 8.30 n/a n/a 5 0.07 480 8.67 1320
24-Feb-17 80.8 1.026 8.01 n/a n/a 5 0.09 480 8.48 1320
8-Mar-17 78.1 1.025 7.80 n/a n/a 2 0.06 460 8.12 1300
9-Mar-17 78.7 1.025 7.94 n/a n/a 2 0.04 440 7.56 1300
10-Mar-17 78.5 1.025 7.87 n/a n/a 2 0.07 440 7.95 1400
11-Mar-17 78.2 1.025 7.80 n/a n/a 2 0.07 430 7.90 1400
12-Mar-17 78.4 1.025 7.83 n/a n/a 2 0.04 450 8.06 1400
14-Mar-17 78.3 1.025 7.82 n/a n/a 2 0.05 475 8.40 1380
15-Mar-17 78.3 1.025 7.83 n/a n/a 2 0.05 465 8.60 1370
16-Mar-17 80.1 1.025 7.80 n/a n/a 0 0.05 450 8.53 1360
17-Mar-17 80.2 1.025 7.82 n/a n/a 0 0.02 445 8.23 1340
19-Mar-17 80.6 1.025 7.83 n/a n/a 0 0.05 440 8.01 1320
20-Mar-17 80.6 1.025 7.82 n/a n/a 0 0.05 445 8.18 1360
24-Mar-17 80.6 1.025 7.83 n/a n/a 0 0.05 465 8.62 1380
28-Mar-17 80.2 1.025 7.90 n/a n/a 0 0.00 0 8.62 1360
31-Mar-17 78.6 1.026 7.88 n/a n/a 0 0.03 470 8.90 1300
6-Apr-17 78.8 1.026 7.88 n/a n/a 0 0.04 445 8.62 1480
9-Apr-17 80.8 1.026 7.93 n/a n/a 0 0.04 455 8.51 1480
13-Apr-17 80.8 1.026 7.90 n/a n/a 0 0.04 470 8.40 1440
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