View Full Version : I know you should always QT, however..
2000se
03/28/2017, 06:45 AM
Reading this article
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1110779
If purchasing from here, do you think all the prophylactic medications are really necessary during our own QT process?
Seems they are doing everything we'd do during the QT process..
Thoughts?
JVan82
03/28/2017, 07:04 AM
Is this just divers den or all liveaquaria, facilities?
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2000se
03/28/2017, 07:32 AM
I'm not totally sure.
homer1475
03/28/2017, 08:03 AM
Since that thread is from like 2007, I wonder if they still use these practices?
Either way I would at the very least QT and observe.
carrots
03/28/2017, 08:12 AM
That is why you pay more at D.D. They have done all they can to offer you a healthy fish. I would still not place the new fish directly into your D.T. If you can, observe in a QT for a few weeks where you can train it to eat and build up strength. This gives the fish the best shot for survival.
2000se
03/28/2017, 09:17 AM
yeah.. that's what I was thinking as well. Place in QT and observe. If purchasing from elsewhere, that's another story..Full QT procedures at that point.
I'm sure they do continue this practice but wouldn't know since it has been that long. But to have set up this procedure and then dismantle it so soon would have been a huge waste of cash. That's why I think they still practice this.
homer1475
03/28/2017, 09:23 AM
Yes but petco bought out DFS, which includes LA DD.
And we all know petco's horrendous for safe fish practices. I would also think that in the long run any QT procedures would cut into the bottom line as they would not move as many fish as they could without QT procedures.
ca1ore
03/28/2017, 09:31 AM
My sense is that what DD does is more 'conditioning' than 'quarantine'. It's that the fish are eating and acclimated to full salinity that commands the premium. I would strongly recommend that ALL new fish are quarantined. Whether one uses prophylactic meds is really an individual call. I use meds on some fish, but not on others; but I also QT for at least 6 weeks, often much longer.
2000se
03/28/2017, 10:21 AM
I agree we should all QT however it specifically stated in the post that they deworm as well as add other meds. Was just curious on how others felt about RE-medicating of fish that are purchased through that channel.
ThRoewer
03/28/2017, 01:08 PM
The only prophylactic treatment I do is a Formalin dip to prevent Brooklynella, Trichodina or Uronema from making it into the QT..
Otherwise I only treat when it is needed.
Too many people here marinate their new fish in way too many chemicals without an actual need for it.
Even prophylactic TTM treatment of new arrivals can be counter productive as it only addresses the least concerning parasite (Cryptocaryon) and may make you miss more serious infections. IMO TTM is best done towards the end of the quarantine period before the fish go into the DT or if the fish actually come down with an ich infection. But I found hyposalinity to be an easier and at least equally reliable treatment against ich.
The purpose of quarantine is to observe and see if new fish may have parasites or an infection that could be harmful to the established fish in the DT. Any prophylactic treatment can obscure or delay the outbreak of an occult infection and make you miss it.
I personally had a good deal of fish die of infections in quarantine, mostly of some serious and seemingly antibiotic resistant bacterial infections, or just general exhaustion from capture and shipping. In many cases blind treatments can make things worse. Ideally you should only treat the fish after you know what you are dealing with and how to treat it most effectively.
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humaguy
03/28/2017, 03:44 PM
LA/DD still strongly recommends that all qt once they receive whatever they bought.
I agree with ThRoewer.
Too many in here recommend qt with meds straightaway, which is totally unnecessary, and can actually work against your success.
Observation is your best friend and the way to go.
If meds can be avoided, avoid them.
Qt at a minimum should be 8 weeks.
There are no "buts" to a nice long qt.
2000se
03/28/2017, 07:47 PM
All points well taken and I appreciate all the thoughtful input here. Many thanks.
Scorpius
03/28/2017, 07:51 PM
You don't take Excedrin just because you might get a migraine. Why treat any other living thing the same way?
Naraku
03/28/2017, 08:42 PM
Did your starcki ever tolerate hyposalinity?
In my experience, they are very sensitive to salinity.
The only prophylactic treatment I do is a Formalin dip to prevent Brooklynella, Trichodina or Uronema from making it into the QT..
Otherwise I only treat when it is needed.
Too many people here marinate their new fish in way too many chemicals without an actual need for it.
Even prophylactic TTM treatment of new arrivals can be counter productive as it only addresses the least concerning parasite (Cryptocaryon) and may make you miss more serious infections. IMO TTM is best done towards the end of the quarantine period before the fish go into the DT or if the fish actually come down with an ich infection. But I found hyposalinity to be an easier and at least equally reliable treatment against ich.
The purpose of quarantine is to observe and see if new fish may have parasites or an infection that could be harmful to the established fish in the DT. Any prophylactic treatment can obscure or delay the outbreak of an occult infection and make you miss it.
I personally had a good deal of fish die of infections in quarantine, mostly of some serious and seemingly antibiotic resistant bacterial infections, or just general exhaustion from capture and shipping. In many cases blind treatments can make things worse. Ideally you should only treat the fish after you know what you are dealing with and how to treat it most effectively.
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ThRoewer
03/28/2017, 10:09 PM
I didn't treated the first two males I got and that are still with me now. Two I got later from LA I had to treated, but they died anyway. I don't think it was the hyposalinity.
The first two got over the ich they had without treatment (as did actually many of my fish).
For all I can tell the ich I had in my system has died out by now - I haven't seen any of it in months despite some serious tank cleanings that normally caused flare-ups.
BTW, 80 to 90% of the fish I bought never got sick with anything.
Most losses I had with bluestripe pipefish, usually within a day or two after receiving them due to bacterial infections starvation (I don't think they feed these guys well enough at the wholesalers).
The infection I see most is Ich, but even that is rather rare.
Flukes I encountered only once - of course with my most expensive fish after I got them to eat: Ventralis Anthias :headwally:
kmbyrnes
03/29/2017, 05:31 AM
My .02
I didn't perform the QT process and I have a lot of money invested in my tanks.
Do TTM and observe as you would any other fish. Medicate only as needed.
TRUST NO ONE.
OrionN
03/29/2017, 11:17 PM
I QT my fish in an actual reef. Treated as needed. Once I know that the fish is healthy and eating well I release to DT. I don't sweat Ich. This disease does not cause problem in my tank.
FishN00b83
03/30/2017, 01:30 PM
I think DD gives the fish a better shot of making it through QT, but I have still put them through TTM and Prazi.
I think TTM is harmless to them, and Prazi seems to be gentle enough. I wouldn't treat for anything else unless I see something.
WLachnit
04/04/2017, 10:11 PM
You don't take Excedrin just because you might get a migraine. Why treat any other living thing the same way?
No...but there are other medicines that people take prophylactically for migraines because they might get one. So, not a good analogy ;) ....but I get the point.
pfan151
04/05/2017, 08:17 PM
I QT my fish in an actual reef. Treated as needed. Once I know that the fish is healthy and eating well I release to DT. I don't sweat Ich. This disease does not cause problem in my tank.
Do you mean ich doesn't kill fish in your tank or that fish never show symptoms? I have ich in one of my tanks now with my regal angels and a couple butterflies. I'm planning to let them ride it out unless they start showing some negative effects from it. So far everything is still eating extremely well and seem fine but they have a reasonable amount of spots on them. As of now I never even see them scrape or flash.
ThRoewer
04/05/2017, 09:52 PM
Do you mean ich doesn't kill fish in your tank or that fish never show symptoms? I have ich in one of my tanks now with my regal angels and a couple butterflies. I'm planning to let them ride it out unless they start showing some negative effects from it. So far everything is still eating extremely well and seem fine but they have a reasonable amount of spots on them. As of now I never even see them scrape or flash.
Be careful and make sure it's really ich. Capalidae (skin flukes) can look exactly like ich, but may move much faster.
pfan151
04/06/2017, 06:49 AM
Be careful and make sure it's really ich. Capalidae (skin flukes) can look exactly like ich, but may move much faster.
I'm pretty positive it's Ich. It's been showing up for a few weeks off and on. If it get too bad I'll remove everything and treat but I'm hoping to avoid that since they are doing so well otherwise.
ThRoewer
04/06/2017, 07:13 AM
Well, in my system ich seems to have died out after roughly a year.
JustinM
04/06/2017, 07:25 AM
I never knew ich could exhaust itself but it's seems so. Did a little googling and saw that at around 10-11 months, if no new ich is introduced. The ich will become ineffective. Hmm, learn something new everyday.
laga77
04/06/2017, 07:27 AM
Do you mean ich doesn't kill fish in your tank or that fish never show symptoms? I have ich in one of my tanks now with my regal angels and a couple butterflies. I'm planning to let them ride it out unless they start showing some negative effects from it. So far everything is still eating extremely well and seem fine but they have a reasonable amount of spots on them. As of now I never even see them scrape or flash.
Ich should never be lethal. At worst it should be a nuisance. Healthy fish with a good immune system can fight it off. If ich kills your fish, you are doing something wrong. Most common mistake is poor diet, followed by mixing the wrong fish/too many, or not enough cover for the fish to feel safe, then poor WC.
CrayolaViolence
04/06/2017, 08:43 AM
Ich should never be lethal. At worst it should be a nuisance. Healthy fish with a good immune system can fight it off. If ich kills your fish, you are doing something wrong. Most common mistake is poor diet, followed by mixing the wrong fish/too many, or not enough cover for the fish to feel safe, then poor WC.
Theoretically it is counter productive for any parasite that relies on a host to complete its life cycle to kill its host. This is counterproductive. However when the environment allows for overpopulation of the parasite which in turn overburdens the host, death can occur. Even something as benign as tape worm or round worm, can eventually overwhelm a host taxing its resources and thus making it susceptible to secondary infections.
Personally, after reading several scientific papers/journals/write ups about parasitic diseases such as marine velvet and ich (mostly in the commercial fish industry some about it in the wild), I have come to one conclusion. All wild caught fish have been exposed to it and exposure leads to contamination. However, do not think for one moment that tank raised fish are immune to it, because they can still contract it in fish keeping facilities (especially if they use fresh sea water) and worse, most have 0 immunity to it because they are never exposed to it.
Ich and Velvet (as well as other parasitic diseases) are usually NOT fatal in the wild due to the massive water exchange that keeps the parasitic numbers down in any given area, the predators to the parasite (and yes there are ich and velvet predators because anything that consumes plankton will consume them) and the fact that fish who are less than health do not live long enough for the parasite to reach obscene numbers in their bodies and shed it at those higher numbers. Predation keeps the Typhoid Marys at bay.
And as someone else already mentioned (many someones in fact) water quality is a HUGE factor because it impacts the immune system of the fish. And almost all fish exposed to ich or velvet and live, will in fact develop an immune system response to it.
Our closed systems with careful environmental controls gives parasites a natural leg up and puts all fish, any fish, at a severe disadvantage when trying to fight off disease.
Of course this is mostly my opinion, based on anecdotal evidence and my interpretation of articles written on the subject.
ca1ore
04/06/2017, 08:51 AM
I never knew ich could exhaust itself but it's seems so. Did a little googling and saw that at around 10-11 months, if no new ich is introduced. The ich will become ineffective. Hmm, learn something new everyday.
Not sure that's necessarily the case. There appear to be many different strains of ich with varying levels of potency. I have ich in my tank, and though it's not a major problem, my Achilles does occasionally show spots - and it's been 3 1/2 years. I QT all fish so reasonably sure the ich strain has not been augmented in that time.
CrayolaViolence
04/06/2017, 09:09 AM
Not sure that's necessarily the case. There appear to be many different strains of ich with varying levels of potency. I have ich in my tank, and though it's not a major problem, my Achilles does occasionally show spots - and it's been 3 1/2 years. I QT all fish so reasonably sure the ich strain has not been augmented in that time.
In papers that I have read, they support your deduction. There are many strains of ich and velvet all of which can survive in different salinities, temperatures, and general conditions. Subspecies within the known species. It's why hyposalinity doesn't work in some cases.
WLachnit
04/06/2017, 10:29 AM
Theoretically it is counter productive for any parasite that relies on a host to complete its life cycle to kill its host. This is counterproductive. However when the environment allows for overpopulation of the parasite which in turn overburdens the host, death can occur. Even something as benign as tape worm or round worm, can eventually overwhelm a host taxing its resources and thus making it susceptible to secondary infections.
Personally, after reading several scientific papers/journals/write ups about parasitic diseases such as marine velvet and ich (mostly in the commercial fish industry some about it in the wild), I have come to one conclusion. All wild caught fish have been exposed to it and exposure leads to contamination. However, do not think for one moment that tank raised fish are immune to it, because they can still contract it in fish keeping facilities (especially if they use fresh sea water) and worse, most have 0 immunity to it because they are never exposed to it.
Ich and Velvet (as well as other parasitic diseases) are usually NOT fatal in the wild due to the massive water exchange that keeps the parasitic numbers down in any given area, the predators to the parasite (and yes there are ich and velvet predators because anything that consumes plankton will consume them) and the fact that fish who are less than health do not live long enough for the parasite to reach obscene numbers in their bodies and shed it at those higher numbers. Predation keeps the Typhoid Marys at bay.
And as someone else already mentioned (many someones in fact) water quality is a HUGE factor because it impacts the immune system of the fish. And almost all fish exposed to ich or velvet and live, will in fact develop an immune system response to it.
Our closed systems with careful environmental controls gives parasites a natural leg up and puts all fish, any fish, at a severe disadvantage when trying to fight off disease.
Of course this is mostly my opinion, based on anecdotal evidence and my interpretation of articles written on the subject.
FWIW, I completely agree with your opinion
ThRoewer
04/06/2017, 03:30 PM
The issue is not that fish have come in contact with ich, but rather just the opposite.
If the fish's immune system never encountered the parasite it will have little to no response to it. On the other hand, a fish that survived an infection will gain a certain level of protection. Of course acquiring immunity will be less likely if the fish is stressed out all the time (usually the case with most tangs in home aquaria).
IMO the acquiring of a certain degree of immunity is the reason why ich will sooner or later die out in a confined system. This will of course not work if you have fish in your tank that are have a compromised immune system due to stress, malnutrition, poor water quality,... which provide the parasite with a refuge.
And then there are some fish that seem to be naturally immune against ich. I know that some studies - Burgess in particular - claim to have proven the opposite, but they only tested very few species and then extrapolated it onto the whole family. These tests were by no means comprehensive enough to support the claims made.
I had plenty of Banggai cardinals in seriously ich infected QTs, but not a single one ever showed the slightest sign of infection. The same goes for Stonogobiops nematodes and yasha - not even a single spot while everyone else in the quarantine tank was seriously sick with ich.
Yet other cardinals or gobies can most definitely get infected and sick. So you can only make claims for the species you actually tested, but not deduct from findings with one or even a few members of a family on all members of the family (also to consider is the sometimes shaky classification of certain fish.)
In the end, acquired or natural immunity is more common than generally acknowledged and often accounts for miraculous recoveries and the apparent "success" of alternative and reef safe medications.
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ThRoewer
04/06/2017, 06:29 PM
For those interested, I collected links to scholarly articles on acquired immunity against protozoan and other parasites in this thread: Protective immunity against Cryptocaryon irritans (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2544292).
Fish can not only acquire immunity against Cryptocaryon, but also against other protozoan like Amyloodinium and even larger parasites like skin flukes.
Now, as great as that may sound, it actually presents a serious danger that a parasite slips through quarantine undiscovered if a fish has an infection and is carrier of an occult infection.
WLachnit
04/06/2017, 06:59 PM
Which has always been my worry,...that unless you treat prophylactically, you cannot be assured that you haven't introduced a parasite into your DT.
Naraku
04/06/2017, 09:08 PM
I got lympho on fish from DD
This was on a semilarvatus and saddleback.
I have also seen lympho on semilarvatus on a trip to the lfs which orders from qm.
would avoid semilarvatus for a while.
ThRoewer
04/06/2017, 10:02 PM
Lymphocystis is a virus infection due to a compromised immune system, often due to copper treatment. It is generally not very infective and once a fish got over it he is usually immune. There are also strong indicators that the different Lymphocystis strains are highly specific to certain fish families, so spreading of the infection is usually no a big issue.
ca1ore
04/07/2017, 07:47 AM
Which has always been my worry,...that unless you treat prophylactically, you cannot be assured that you haven't introduced a parasite into your DT.
It's a very good point - and I waffle back and forth over whether to prophylactically treat. Ultimately I do for fish prone to parasites and not for fish not prone to parasites. I do tend to find that the stress of shipping will reveal latent infections.
bobbravo2
04/07/2017, 08:33 AM
You don't take Excedrin just because you might get a migraine. Why treat any other living thing the same way?
I take it just for the added caffeine boost. J/k
FishN00b83
04/07/2017, 09:46 AM
Ich in a confined space can overwhelm fish, immunity or not. Just because you don't see it on them, doesn't mean it's not in the gills, the same goes for flukes.
Treating for Ich and flukes is so easy, it's stupid NOT to treat for them. TTM with prazi for 12 days gets rid of both. Why wouldn't you do that? If you put them in a QT tank for another two weeks and nothing shows up, they're golden. Brook and Velvet will show signs within 20 days, if you do TTM and QT for two weeks that's 26 days. If something comes up, treat it and watch. With everything we know these days you're being irresponsible not treating these animals.
You give your cats and dogs flea/heart worm meds to PREVENT parasites, why not treat your fish the same way?
ThRoewer
04/08/2017, 01:02 AM
Ich in a confined space can overwhelm fish, immunity or not. Just because you don't see it on them, doesn't mean it's not in the gills, ...
Internet rumors. Non of that is true.
A fish that has acquired full immunity against Cryptocaryon will not be bothered by it, confined system or not. Actually, any parasite trying to feast on that fish will be killed.
A partially immune fish may get a few spots, but not be killed.
Cryptocaryon has no preferential to where to infect. Statistically it is equally likely to be found at any surface of the fish. The gill thing is something that applies to Amyloodinium or Brooklynella, but not to Cryptocaryon.
IME, partially immune fish mostly show spots on the fins because the immune system is least capable of fighting the infection there due to the limited blood flow there. It's the same reason why Lymphocystis usually shows up on the fins first.
I suggest to read the Burgess study to gather some fact founded knowledge about acquired immunity against Cryptocaryon:
CRYPTOCARYON IRRITANS BROWN, 1951 (CILIOPHORA):
TRANSMISSION AND IMMUNE RESPONSE
IN THE MULLET CHELON LABROSUS (RISSO, 1826)
by
PETER JOHN BURGESS
B.Sc. (Hons.), M.Sc., M.Phil. (https://pearl.plymouth.ac.uk/handle/10026.1/2632)
Direct link to PDF: https://pearl.plymouth.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10026.1/2632/PETER%20JOHN%20BURGESS.PDF?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
More science based info on immunity can found at the links provided in this thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2544292
FishN00b83
04/08/2017, 03:12 AM
Internet rumors. Non of that is true.
A fish that has acquired full immunity against Cryptocaryon will not be bothered by it, confined system or not. Actually, any parasite trying to feast on that fish will be killed.
A partially immune fish may get a few spots, but not be killed.
Cryptocaryon has no preferential to where to infect. Statistically it is equally likely to be found at any surface of the fish. The gill thing is something that applies to Amyloodinium or Brooklynella, but not to Cryptocaryon.
IME, partially immune fish mostly show spots on the fins because the immune system is least capable of fighting the infection there due to the limited blood flow there. It's the same reason why Lymphocystis usually shows up on the fins first.
I suggest to read the Burgess study to gather some fact founded knowledge about acquired immunity against Cryptocaryon:
CRYPTOCARYON IRRITANS BROWN, 1951 (CILIOPHORA):
TRANSMISSION AND IMMUNE RESPONSE
IN THE MULLET CHELON LABROSUS (RISSO, 1826)
by
PETER JOHN BURGESS
B.Sc. (Hons.), M.Sc., M.Phil. (https://pearl.plymouth.ac.uk/handle/10026.1/2632)
Direct link to PDF: https://pearl.plymouth.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10026.1/2632/PETER%20JOHN%20BURGESS.PDF?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
More science based info on immunity can found at the links provided in this thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2544292
Are you seriously siting work that old? Are you going to tell me the earth is flat too? Or maybe dinosaurs didn't exist? If you google something enough you'll always find what you're looking for, and that's the problem. A lot of just wrong outdated information is out there.
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FishN00b83
04/08/2017, 03:22 AM
They will develop temporary immunity for a few months but still be the carrier of the parasite. If you think of ich more like fleas you'll get a better understanding of what is happening. Some animals are allergic and scratch from bites, some aren't bothered at all but still carry them. Are the ones not scratching immune? No they just don't show signs. Can they carry it and transfer them to other people? Absolutely. Parasites are not sicknesses you develop antibodies to. Ich is not a disease and people need to stop thinking about it this way.
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ThRoewer
04/08/2017, 04:17 AM
Are you seriously siting work that old? Are you going to tell me the earth is flat too? Or maybe dinosaurs didn't exist? If you google something enough you'll always find what you're looking for, and that's the problem. A lot of just wrong outdated information is out there.
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The findings are still valid and have been confirmed by newer studies.
They will develop temporary immunity for a few months but still be the carrier of the parasite. If you think of ich more like fleas you'll get a better understanding of what is happening. Some animals are allergic and scratch from bites, some aren't bothered at all but still carry them. Are the ones not scratching immune? No they just don't show signs. Can they carry it and transfer them to other people? Absolutely. Parasites are not sicknesses you develop antibodies to. Ich is not a disease and people need to stop thinking about it this way.
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Where do you get that wisdom from? I doubt that there are any scientific studies that support that.
If you would take the time to read some of the studies on acquired immunity you would find that fish in fact develop chemical responses/antibodies against parasites, even such parasites as flukes.
FishN00b83
04/08/2017, 05:51 AM
The findings are still valid and have been confirmed by newer studies.
Where do you get that wisdom from? I doubt that there are any scientific studies that support that.
If you would take the time to read some of the studies on acquired immunity you would find that fish in fact develop chemical responses/antibodies against parasites, even such parasites as flukes.
A lot of the correct information can be found in the stickies on these forums. Please do not pass around old outdated information as fact. Ich will not just go away on its own. Fish will also develop a temporary tolerance but can and will still carry/pass the parasite to others.
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