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View Full Version : Please clear up a question several are asking


ostrow
03/28/2017, 07:25 AM
In another thread, someone asked about plugging a Reeflo Hammerhead pump into an EB8. There was some discussion there about amp draw and "inrush currents" - a phrase that is new to me.

I recently added an ALD to my Apex, and programmed it to shut off the EB8 outlet for my return pump should the probe detect water on the floor. I had not considered that the pump could overwhelm or destroy the EB8.

As I said, some on there say it is fine, others that it is not fine. This is the thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=25023218#post25023218

Given the stakes involved, I am hoping someone from Neptune can clarify here and I can share over there if need be.

Thanks.

ostrow
03/29/2017, 02:16 PM
Dies anyone from Neptune monitor this forum?

slief
03/29/2017, 09:49 PM
As I mentioned in the Reeflo thread, I ran a Hammerhead for years on my EB8 without issue. I know some mentioned contacts welding themselves shut but I don't think it's an issue. That said, the Traics support more than the max draw from the Reeflo pump and I don't think the inrush is that high on those Baldor motors to begin with. As such, I think it's a non issue. Heck, I ran my 1/2HP chiller off an EB8 for years and that thing pulled over 10 amps going 12 hours a day. That was pushing things but even that didn't kill my EB8. In hindsite, I wouldn't do that again but the Reeflo really shouldn't be an issue. If I was still running my Hammerhead, I would have put my Kill-A-Watt on it to verify the actual inrush current but I removed that pump long ago in favor of an RD3 230.

That said, this is a userbased forum. Terrance and Russ do poke around here from time to time but forum.neptunesystems.com is a better place to get their attention.

ostrow
03/30/2017, 07:49 AM
What is "inrush current" and what setting on a Kill-A-Watt identifies that?

slief
03/30/2017, 10:02 AM
What is "inrush current" and what setting on a Kill-A-Watt identifies that?

When you turn on an electrical device, there is often higher current draw than the rated spec for a brief moment. A Kill-A-Watt is a device that you plug into an outlet. You then plug a device into the Kill-A-Watt meter and the meter will display the current draw in watts via it's digital display in real time. As the pump ramps up, you would see the wattage draw go up and down assuming there is much inrush current.

ostrow
03/30/2017, 01:16 PM
Yeah I have a Kill-A_Watt. So "inrush" is what on say a fridge or a/c is called "startup" or surge. Why don't they just call it that!

I had my HH permanently plugged into one for a couple years. Never once saw a spike of more than 10-20 watts. I suspect those guys aren't working with real data.

slief
03/30/2017, 02:24 PM
Yeah I have a Kill-A_Watt. So "inrush" is what on say a fridge or a/c is called "startup" or surge. Why don't they just call it that!

I had my HH permanently plugged into one for a couple years. Never once saw a spike of more than 10-20 watts. I suspect those guys aren't working with real data.

That is correct. Startup surge is essentially the same as inrush current. Some are likely speculating on what the actual inrush is based on what they have read or think. Real world numbers are likely to vary. Unplug your Reeflo from the Kill-A-Watt and see what the watts jump to when you plug it back into the Kill-A-Watt. That will give you a much better idea of reality. My guess is the the numbers will be similar but still worth the effort.

Antipodes
03/30/2017, 06:10 PM
Lots of info on inrush current if you do an internet search.
A kill a watt is not going to give you a good indication of real inrush current. It can happen very quickly and be very short, but long enough to potentially damage components if they are not designed for it.
Metal halides are a major concern for the Aquarimum as the inrush (about500ms -1000ms) is about 4 times the normal current. And about double the normal current for around 20-30 seconds while it strikes the burner and warns up sufficiently to provide a stable arc.
A lot of motors have a initial inrush of up to 4 times the normal current for a couple of cycles.
Cheap (read chinese, particularly older ones) pumps (motors) have high initial inrush and higher normal current for the amount of work the actually do.

I had 2 sets of metal halides with dual 250 watt fittings.
One was english made and had a constant current draw of around 3.5 Amps (240V here in this country) and a chinese made one that would draw 5.5 Amps.
The cheaper alternative in this case cost one hell of a lot more to power over its life time than the actual saving in initial cost. Gave it back to the retailer as I was pretty disappointed in it.

ostrow
03/31/2017, 09:26 AM
That said, this is a userbased forum. Terrance and Russ do poke around here from time to time but forum.neptunesystems.com is a better place to get their attention.


They seem not to monitor their own forum either. Oh well.

ostrow
03/31/2017, 09:36 AM
Lots of info on inrush current if you do an internet search.
A kill a watt is not going to give you a good indication of real inrush current. It can happen very quickly and be very short, but long enough to potentially damage components if they are not designed for it.
Metal halides are a major concern for the Aquarimum as the inrush (about500ms -1000ms) is about 4 times the normal current. And about double the normal current for around 20-30 seconds while it strikes the burner and warns up sufficiently to provide a stable arc.
A lot of motors have a initial inrush of up to 4 times the normal current for a couple of cycles.
Cheap (read chinese, particularly older ones) pumps (motors) have high initial inrush and higher normal current for the amount of work the actually do.

I had 2 sets of metal halides with dual 250 watt fittings.
One was english made and had a constant current draw of around 3.5 Amps (240V here in this country) and a chinese made one that would draw 5.5 Amps.
The cheaper alternative in this case cost one hell of a lot more to power over its life time than the actual saving in initial cost. Gave it back to the retailer as I was pretty disappointed in it.

The implication here is that it would also be unsafe to run halides off an apex. Please do not take this the wrong way but this sounds almost absurd. One of the first things these controllers were designed for was to control lighting....halide lighting.

So, far more likely to me, is that people are mistaken either about what the equipment does on startup or about what the controllers can handle, or both. It would be good to hear from Neptune either here or on their forum.

Antipodes
04/01/2017, 01:10 AM
The implication here is that it would also be unsafe to run halides off an apex. Please do not take this the wrong way but this sounds almost absurd. One of the first things these controllers were designed for was to control lighting....halide lighting.

So, far more likely to me, is that people are mistaken either about what the equipment does on startup or about what the controllers can handle, or both. It would be good to hear from Neptune either here or on their forum.
HAha, no that is not the implication as that is exactly what I am doing.
I suggest just be informed on what is out there and what you have, so that we can all find the best way to manage it with our meager budgets.

karimwassef
04/01/2017, 11:35 AM
I run 1.2Kw of halides through my Apex.
I also run my 10A chiller and 6A dolphin pump off the high current outlets (4 and 8). I run 3 separate EB8s, each on a separate power circuit with individual breakers and GFCIs. They are solid in my experience and a reeflo pump should not make any difference.

Inrush on a chiller compressor running 10A is a lot more severe than a reeflo.

The power design rules I follow are: outlets 1-3 and 5-7 are 5A max. Outlets 4 and 8 are 10A max and all outlets combined must be < 15A max.

My halides at 400W each consumed 4A each.. so that EB8 only has 3A in the power budget for all other outlets combined. That's why I have another EB8 that runs my chiller and other small devices. Then a third EB8 for the dolphin and 600W LED fixture.

That's part of the reason I switched to multiple DC pumps. The low current draw per pump makes them easier the budget in - no pun intended.