Can't shake this algae...

[aras]

Hi all, I am having an ongoing issue with hair algae that keeps growing on gravel and rocks. To prevent it from overrunning the tank completely I have to do major cleaning using toothbrush and removing most of the rocks every 4-5 weeks. In a month or so rocks get covered in GHA again so it’s not a long term solution. Pictures below were taken before my routine monthly clean-up.

371552

371553

The tank is 350l Red Sea 12 month old setup, mainly soft corals with few SPS frags. 1 x Yellow Tang, 2 Common Clown, 1 x Cardinal, 1 x Royal Gramma, 1 x Watchman Goby, 6 x Green Chromis. There are some turbo snails, few emerald crabs, tuxedo urchin, but they don’t make any noticeable difference.

Most corals grow OK, but could be better. I never had issues with very high Nitrates or Phosphates in this tank and for about 9 months both have been undetectable with Salifert kits. Water parameters are: KH 8.6, PH 8, PO4 0, NO3 0, Ca 420, Ma >1500, Salt 1.025.

Lighting - 2 x Kessil A360WE running for 8 hours at 70%. Sump has a refugium with chaeto on reverse lighting cycle. Skimmer runs 24/7. Tunse auto top-up setup with Kalkwasser. Carbon and Rowa Phos media in socks changed monthly. Fish fed with frozen food once per day, corals once or twice per week with coral food or reef snow. Weekly water changes 10-15% siphoning gravel. I use RO-DI water and D&D salt.

Any ideas what I’m doing wrong and how to get rid of this algae? I want to keep softies and Xenia so don’t want to go ultra low nutrient. A bit of algae here and there is not an issue for me, but current situation is very annoying…

[Green Chromis]

:fish1: Hi,is your rock, a high quality live rock, or did you start your system with dead uncured rock? If you went with option two, then you could be leaching PO4 from your rock, the test kits will also read zero, due to the fact the GHA is taking in the PO4. :fish1:

[scooter31707]

IMO, I would run the GFO in a reactor. I also agree with the above post that your rock may still be leaching phosphates.

[aras]

I was running GFO in a reactor for a few months. Don't think there was any difference and it was a pain to clean so I moved back to socks. I guess I could try using it again...

Don't think it's rock. It was high quality cured rock from 3 different fish stores. Some peaces also came from my old tank that didn't have algae issues. Algae grows on all of them.

[mcgyvr]

This is what I would do..
Remove a few rocks at a time and scrub heavily in a mix of 50% tank water and 50% hydrogen peroxide.. Do that for about 10-15 minutes each rock...
Then simply rinse them off (old tank water is fine or ro/di water) and back into the tank..
Repeat every few days until all rocks are clean.. And go from there.. Brushing alone is not sufficient.. You need the peroxide to overpower/kill the algae on the rocks..

And up the rowaphos change schedule to every 2 weeks or less.. (running GFO in a reactor would be/is far better than a sock)

And see how it goes from there..

[Michael Hoaster]

Two things that come to mind are competition and predation.

How's your chaeto doing? If it's not growing, it's not helping. The bigger the plant, the more nutrients it needs, which provides more competition for the GHA. Is the fuge lighting adequate? Is the fuge size adequate? You may also consider adding a few other plants to diversify nutrient uptake. Get that fuge at peak operating capacity and that should help.

Your cleanup crew looks kinda weak. A fully thought-out crew can be very effective. Get Cerith snails. They reproduce to reach effective numbers and their population self-regulates. Nassarius snails eat leftover fish food and anything that dies. I'm surprised your urchin isn't more helpful. Try removing the long strands of algae manually, then place the urchin on it. For some reason, many algae eaters avoid the long strands but will go after the shorter stuff. Only one herbivorous fish? Get more. Look for species that eat your algae.

There are also some promising new chemicals out there. I've heard good things about Vibrance. Good luck!

[mcgyvr]

t. For some reason, many algae eaters avoid the long strands but will go after the shorter stuff.

I have certainly found that to be true.. Once it starts to get more than a 1/4" or so not much will touch it..

[aras]

I'll try peroxide on some smaller rocks first. Will this not kill bacteria though?

Cheato is growing, but probably not as good as algae in the main tank... I would say it increased in size around 4-5 times in 12 months. Not sure if that's a good growth... Will need to trim it soon as it's taking pretty much all space in that part of the sump. I guess could try increasing lighting there...

I used to have (probably still have some) Cerith and Nassarius. But they don't seem to last very long for me... You are right about long GHA strands - nobody touches them. Yellow Tang happily picks at shot ones, but never goes near the long ones. What herbivorous fish would you recommend for open top tank of my size?

[mcgyvr]

I'll try peroxide on some smaller rocks first. Will this not kill bacteria though?



Yes.. Thats why you do a few every couple days or so to allow the bacteria to repopulate..
But peroxide works wonders in over-oxidizing the algae thus killing it off..

[aras]

When you say 50% tank water and 50% hydrogen peroxide, what strength of peroxide do you have in mind? On eBay in comes in 3%, 6%, 9% and 12% strength....

I assume you can't dip rocks with attached corals in that?

[Sk8r]

GFO medium depends on being changed often, once monthly or more, because it can saturate to capacity in the first few days, and then do nothing, while the rocks continue to leach and add more nastiness. Change the medium often, and keep doing it, until you see the problem visibly abating. Then you can lay off. Yes, it's expensive replacing medium that often, but it needs doing.

[Michael Hoaster]

Sounds like it's not growing fast enough to make much difference. More pruning and lighting may help. Beef up that crew. Do have any hermit crabs? If so, lose them. They are inferior algae eaters that kill superior algae eaters-snails. Get more snails, and keep cropping the long strands.

I don't know which fish to recommend to you. Scopas tangs are supposed to be good, but you already have a yellow, so I wouldn't. Lawnmower blennies, rabbit fish and other tangs could help. Another option is mollies. Drip acclimate them like any other fish, and they're good to go. Great algae eaters. Plus they are livebearers, so they effectively turn algae into feeder fish. Your cardinal and gramma will enjoy that!

Getting recommendations here on RC is a good start, but there is no substitute for good research. You might start by asking google, "what fish eats hair algae?" From there, you will gather options, then research them to see which is most appropriate for your setup.

[mcgyvr]

When you say 50% tank water and 50% hydrogen peroxide, what strength of peroxide do you have in mind? On eBay in comes in 3%, 6%, 9% and 12% strength....

I assume you can't dip rocks with attached corals in that?

I think I use the 3% which is available at any local grocery/drug store..

And yes.. "some corals" can tolerate the dip alright (which ones is kind of a guessing game.. zoas I've heard do just fine)..
Personally I would try not to expose them to it if you can.. Just keep them out of the water and brush carefully around them..
OR best to remove the corals from the rocks or don't treat those..

[soulpatch]

I think I use the 3% which is available at any local grocery/drug store..

And yes.. "some corals" can tolerate the dip alright (which ones is kind of a guessing game.. zoas I've heard do just fine)..
Personally I would try not to expose them to it if you can.. Just keep them out of the water and brush carefully around them..
OR best to remove the corals from the rocks or don't treat those..

Yes the 50/50 mix typically given is for 3% peroxide. You can go stronger but you might need to lean more towards 60/40 mixes and such.

I've had no issues with peroxide dips with any of my acros, torts, acans, torch, hammers, frogspawn, gonipora, zoas, enchinadas, montis, milles, stags, ect.

I would not do things like clams, gorgs, sponges, ect.

[ajoe]

If your not rinsing your frozen food and draining the excess down the sink I would certainly start doing that as well as rebooting your phosphate reactor. RowaPhos is great stuff. Give it time and change 1x/3wks. Also, ...if your using any dry foods be sure to avoid those with phosphates. I love New Spectrum and Hakari for that reason. I would consider cutting back the feeding to every other day and decrease the quantity. Those little bellies don't need all the food we generally poor into these systems. Lastly consider cutting the percentage on those beautiful lights down to maybe 40-50 intensity. Algae loves/needs light and 70%+ of todays LEDs are really intense. The ocean is cloudy considerably and nothing needs that much light everyday 7 days a week.

luck.

[billdogg]

This is what I would do..
Remove a few rocks at a time and scrub heavily in a mix of 50% tank water and 50% hydrogen peroxide.. Do that for about 10-15 minutes each rock...
Then simply rinse them off (old tank water is fine or ro/di water) and back into the tank..
Repeat every few days until all rocks are clean.. And go from there.. Brushing alone is not sufficient.. You need the peroxide to overpower/kill the algae on the rocks..

And up the rowaphos change schedule to every 2 weeks or less.. (running GFO in a reactor would be/is far better than a sock)

And see how it goes from there..


I think I use the 3% which is available at any local grocery/drug store..

And yes.. "some corals" can tolerate the dip alright (which ones is kind of a guessing game.. zoas I've heard do just fine)..
Personally I would try not to expose them to it if you can.. Just keep them out of the water and brush carefully around them..
OR best to remove the corals from the rocks or don't treat those..

You need to get outa my head!:lolspin:

This is excellent advice as exactly how I would go about it if it were me. IMHO, testing for NO3/PO4 in the middle of an outbreak is a waste of time. You would not have the problem if they were not present (in excess) in your system. Use a reactor for your GFO - a sock is a horribly inefficient way to go. Change is often - in your case it could be used up in days, not weeks.

[mcgyvr]

You need to get outa my head!:lolspin:



Lets just agree to agree... Wait.. huh? :lol:

We need the Billdogg and Mcgyvr show..
You say potato.. I say potato..
You say tomato.. I say tomato...
You say "What He Said"... I say "What He Said"..
:love2:

[billdogg]

Lets just agree to agree... Wait.. huh? :lol:

We need the Billdogg and Mcgyvr show..
You say potato.. I say potato..
You say tomato.. I say tomato...
You say "What He Said"... I say "What He Said"..
:love2:

Could it be that you ARE one of the voices in my head?????

[mcgyvr]

Could it be that you ARE one of the voices in my head?????

Entirely possible.. Consider yourself lucky :bounce3:

[Michael Hoaster]

There a lot of solutions suggested here, and I just wanted to point out some alternatives, rather than argue the various merits.

I understand that you're in algae hell right now and you're desperate for solutions. Been there! We all have. Hell, if someone were to tell me to hook up a car battery to my tank and electrocute the algae, I might have tried it! But I have to say that killing your live rock does not sound like a good solution to me. Chemically removing algae just opens up real estate for guess what - more algae.

Algae and plants are natural components of ALL natural bodies of water. How we deal with them in our aquariums is a matter of choice. You can choose to employ all manner of devices and techniques to combat these ugly (and natural!) intrusions into your pristine, little box. I choose NOT to fight a losing battle against Mother Nature. I'd rather work WITH her. If we accept the fact that algae is always going to be there, we can then decide WHERE in our system we want it, and in what form we want it to take. Some folks use refugiums, others use algae scrubbers. There are lots of ways to 'work with' algae. I chose to fill my display with beautiful macro algae, seagrasses and a cast of thousands clean up crew.

Algae is nature's way of balancing out ecosystems. You can choose to fight it, and assert your dominance and control over nature, or you can give up some of that control and 'steer' nature in the direction you want, and let her do the heavy lifting for you.

Again, this is just another alternative. I'm sure any of the other solutions will work. That's the great thing about this crazy hobby - given enough time and effort, ANY method we choose will work. You just have to decide what methods suit your style.

Me? I'm just a lazy, nature lover…

[aras]

Thanks all. Some great suggestions here! Here is my plan of action:

New GFO reactor is up and running. Will be replacing Rowa Phos weekly.
Hydrogen Peroxide ordered. Will clean few smaller rocks without corals for now. Don't want to kill too much bacteria so will go slow with this one.
Will syphon out most of the gravel that is currently badly covered in GHA, leaving few patches for goby and shrimp. Rest will be bare bottom until things start improving.
Will reduce light intensity to 60%, in a week to 50%.
Will cut feeding to every other day for fish, and once a week for corals. And yes, I always rinse frozen food.
Already trimmed chaeto. Will look into how to increase lighting in the sump.
Will buy some clean-up crew.

Hopefully this will do the trick. If there is no or little improvement in a month or so will start looking into chemicals…

[mcgyvr]

Go slow taking out the substrate..

[ajoe]

Go slow taking out the substrate..

Good advice here.

Also, ..no need to change RowaPhos weekly. Simply let the reactor run for 24 hours and test the Phosphate levels of the water coming directly out of the reactor to get a base line. Then simply re-check the water coming out of the reactor (not the aquarium) each week. When you see a rise in phosphate levels that is a sign that the reactor media is either saturated and/or approaching saturation and not as effective and ready to be replaced. The length of time it takes your media to reach saturation is unique to your tank based on the contents, live stock, feeding/nutrients etc. I doubt you will need to change your media each week unless their is a lot of nutrients and waste in the water. After a month or so you will have a much better idea of how much life you can get out of each media change. This point will change as you add more to the tank so it is now something you just do going forward. Just takes time. Your on the right track. Maintenance is part of the hobby.

[aras]

Good advice here.

Also, ..no need to change RowaPhos weekly. Simply let the reactor run for 24 hours and test the Phosphate levels of the water coming directly out of the reactor to get a base line. Then simply re-check the water coming out of the reactor (not the aquarium) each week. When you see a rise in phosphate levels that is a sign that the reactor media is either saturated and/or approaching saturation and not as effective and ready to be replaced. The length of time it takes your media to reach saturation is unique to your tank based on the contents, live stock, feeding/nutrients etc. I doubt you will need to change your media each week unless their is a lot of nutrients and waste in the water. After a month or so you will have a much better idea of how much life you can get out of each media change. This point will change as you add more to the tank so it is now something you just do going forward. Just takes time. Your on the right track. Maintenance is part of the hobby.

Not sure that would work in my case. There is no detectable phosphate in water. So, both inlet and outlet would show 0. The idea is that once I start manually removing algae, the phosphate that normally would be feeding that removed algae would be absorbed by fresh Rowa Phos rather than feeding new algae... I think you are right, replacing media every week is probably an overkill, but I prefer to go a bit overkill for now and try everything I can before resorting to chemicals.

In regards to substrate, I don't think it performs any major filtering in my tank - it's a very thin layer mainly for aesthetic purposes.

[Heuristic]

You need to get outa my head!:lolspin:

This is excellent advice as exactly how I would go about it if it were me. IMHO, testing for NO3/PO4 in the middle of an outbreak is a waste of time. You would not have the problem if they were not present (in excess) in your system. Use a reactor for your GFO - a sock is a horribly inefficient way to go. Change is often - in your case it could be used up in days, not weeks.

Ya, once the algae out break has started testing for PO4 is mostly useless. It's going to read 0 because all the algae is eating it all
There a lot of solutions suggested here, and I just wanted to point out some alternatives, rather than argue the various merits.

I understand that you're in algae hell right now and you're desperate for solutions. Been there! We all have. Hell, if someone were to tell me to hook up a car battery to my tank and electrocute the algae, I might have tried it! But I have to say that killing your live rock does not sound like a good solution to me. Chemically removing algae just opens up real estate for guess what - more algae.

Algae and plants are natural components of ALL natural bodies of water. How we deal with them in our aquariums is a matter of choice. You can choose to employ all manner of devices and techniques to combat these ugly (and natural!) intrusions into your pristine, little box. I choose NOT to fight a losing battle against Mother Nature. I'd rather work WITH her. If we accept the fact that algae is always going to be there, we can then decide WHERE in our system we want it, and in what form we want it to take. Some folks use refugiums, others use algae scrubbers. There are lots of ways to 'work with' algae. I chose to fill my display with beautiful macro algae, seagrasses and a cast of thousands clean up crew.

Algae is nature's way of balancing out ecosystems. You can choose to fight it, and assert your dominance and control over nature, or you can give up some of that control and 'steer' nature in the direction you want, and let her do the heavy lifting for you.

Again, this is just another alternative. I'm sure any of the other solutions will work. That's the great thing about this crazy hobby - given enough time and effort, ANY method we choose will work. You just have to decide what methods suit your style.

Me? I'm just a lazy, nature lover…

I like this take a lot. I try to fight nature with nature and as you said, redirect the algae to the refugium.

[wrott]

I've been using Vibrant the past month, it works well, no more vallonia.
I'd use it for light cleaning, 1ml/10g every 2 weeks--maybe dose it once a week for first 2 weeks, then back down.
https://www.uwcmn.com/shop-for-vibrant

[aras]

Good news! Things seem to improving :) I did most of the things I listed in post #21 (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=25047292&postcount=21) (except increasing sump lighting and leaving tank bare bottom). I suspect Rowa Phos in a reactor is helping the most... Thanks everyone for ideas :beer: