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mike61289
04/15/2017, 11:11 AM
I woke up this morning to find my blue squamosa clam's shell open and cleaned out. Water quality doesn't indicate any issues. It was nice and open all day yesterday and wasn't showing any signs of distress. The coral in the tank are also open and not showing issues.

I think my cleaner shrimp might have attacked it. It was persistently trying to open the shell after lights out.

Are cleaners known to predate on clams? It never went after it until last night. The tank is fed 3x per day and I do a water change often enough to keep things stable. There's no reason for the shrimp to have decided it was hungry.

Dvara78
04/15/2017, 11:40 AM
It was probably already dead if the cleaner shrimp took to it.

mike61289
04/15/2017, 03:40 PM
So strange though... it wasn't gaping. It was open and beautiful yesterday. Nothing bothered it until last night as far as I'm aware...

windlasher
04/15/2017, 10:54 PM
So strange though... it wasn't gaping. It was open and beautiful yesterday. Nothing bothered it until last night as far as I'm aware...

What else is in there? Could a cleaner shrimp eat a whole clam overnight?

mike61289
04/15/2017, 11:29 PM
Typical cleanup crew (nassarius, astrea, and trochus snails, peppermint shrimp, 2 cleaners, marble starfish), 2 clowns, a royal gramma, a mandarin, and the usual hitchhikers. When I found the shell, it was covered in mostly bristle worms.

I'm sure my cleanup crew only went after it after it had died, but I can't for the life of me figure out why it died.

Brieninsac
04/15/2017, 11:52 PM
I lost mine today too, most likely to shortening my lighting schedule to combat algae. $100 down the drain [emoji30]

ca1ore
04/16/2017, 09:28 AM
Clams can be really twitchy and often on the way out long before they show symptoms. Personally I think starvation is the most likely cause of death, though getting picked at by fish has resulted in the demise of clams in my system. My approach these days with clams is to work out how much light I think they need and then double it. Your cleaners and CUC is just doing what it's supposed to.

AlSimmons
04/16/2017, 12:18 PM
This link might help.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/3/aafeature1

mike61289
04/16/2017, 09:52 PM
I was feeding it ultra grade clam food once/week. Not sure it was starvation.

Anyways, it's gone and it's done. Nothing to do about it now.

I was just curious to know if cleaners are known to kill clams or not.

Darthv247
04/17/2017, 05:54 PM
bristleworms love to kill clams. they get in through the foot if its not properly closed off yet. then kill them from the inside out. once clam opens up its a feast for all.
Sucks had it happen to mine before too. If not the worms, then u have a monster strong crab in the tank.

Darthv247
04/17/2017, 05:58 PM
I was feeding it ultra grade clam food once/week. Not sure it was starvation.

Anyways, it's gone and it's done. Nothing to do about it now.

I was just curious to know if cleaners are known to kill clams or not.

at least a lesson was learned. I always tried to get a flat rock under them in the sand for them to grab ahold of. then the tendons or whatever they are latch on to the rock and close off the base.

Though all clams are different, this has been my experience.

mike61289
04/18/2017, 09:24 AM
My clam attached itself to a rock that I placed under the sand. It was a squamosa so I figured it would be happier on the sandbed than on the rocks.

Anyways, now it's just a matter of me deciding whether it's worth the risk of getting another clam or if I should just continue adding coral. My reef is still not complete (not that it ever will be :P).

Darthv247
04/18/2017, 09:32 AM
well, reading that article i am most likely wrong anyways. Get another. just make sure it has enough light etc. I found the durasa clams to be real hardy and beautiful. Vivid has nice ones or im sure you can find one u like.

MondoBongo
04/18/2017, 11:39 AM
I was feeding it ultra grade clam food once/week. Not sure it was starvation.

Anyways, it's gone and it's done. Nothing to do about it now.

I was just curious to know if cleaners are known to kill clams or not.

Tridacna clams need light, not food to survive. feeding them won't overcome a light deficit.

bristleworms love to kill clams. they get in through the foot if its not properly closed off yet. then kill them from the inside out. once clam opens up its a feast for all.
Sucks had it happen to mine before too. If not the worms, then u have a monster strong crab in the tank.

no they don't. this is just patently untrue. bristle worms are scavengers, not predators. they don't eat things that aren't already dead/dying.

Darthv247
04/18/2017, 12:34 PM
there are a few types of brisstle worms that kill clams but unlikely according to the article posted. some can even bore through the shell

jda
04/18/2017, 03:43 PM
Don't sweat the cleaners. They were just getting a free meal. Bristleworms too, but same thing... free meal, not assassins.

With a squammy, lots of good light and good water quality are all that they need. Clams are the ultimate in false positive - they will spend all of their energy trying to survive and then just end updated months later when they were dying the whole time. The only way that you can tell a real positive is if the clam is putting on new shell growth - not just the white area that the mantle keeps clean, but actual growth. A blue squammy should be able to grow at least an inch a year, if not considerably more.

jda
04/18/2017, 03:44 PM
Also, clams usually don't do well in new tanks.

mike61289
04/19/2017, 08:20 AM
Tank isn't new and the clam was getting plenty of light. Water is changed very regularly, hence the ultra grade clam food. Gotta add something to the water for it to filter if I'm keeping the water that clean. ;)

jda
04/19/2017, 08:57 AM
What kind of lights do you have?

My was is SPS clean with near zero N and P and the clams do fine without any food.

MondoBongo
04/19/2017, 09:56 AM
there are a few types of brisstle worms that kill clams but unlikely according to the article posted. some can even bore through the shell

i think you're confusing bristle worms for eunice worm, aka bobbit worms.

two very different critters. eunice worms are the stuff of nightmares. easiest way to tell them apart is that eunice worms sport some easily identifiable head gear in the form of tentacles.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/if-you-thought-big-bristleworms-were-scary

mike61289
04/19/2017, 03:47 PM
What kind of lights do you have?

My was is SPS clean with near zero N and P and the clams do fine without any food.

Maxspect razor 320w LED. Lights were on a 12 hour cycle, maxing out at 60% blue and 50% white midway through that cycle.

ROB2005
04/19/2017, 05:10 PM
Did you ever do periodic checks for pyramid snails on its underside?

mike61289
04/19/2017, 06:30 PM
Did you ever do periodic checks for pyramid snails on its underside?

Yup. I checked for them pretty much daily. It was a new clam so I was excited to keep it. I also gave it a good scrubbing before putting it into the display tank.

jda
04/19/2017, 06:53 PM
You are probably not going to want to hear this, and it is hardly scientific, but I am starting to think that most LED lights are not good long-term for clams - I have always thought this about Crocea and Maxima, but this is no huge negative since they require even very power MH or T5 to survive too. Ca1ore had a large long-term squammy die suddenly a little while after switching to Radions - I never would have guessed lights, but I am starting to change my mind. This is another case.

I know that squammys are not super high light clams, but there have been too many deaths under LED to ignore when they even do quite well under lower wattage T5 and MH still.

...again, not scientific, but something to keep in mind perhaps. I don't expect anybody else to agree, but just be on the look out.

jda
04/19/2017, 06:54 PM
Pyramid snails irritate clams to death if they are not treated and removed - this can take many months. I have never heard of them just killing a clam out of nowhere.

mike61289
04/19/2017, 07:09 PM
Pyramid snails irritate clams to death if they are not treated and removed - this can take many months. I have never heard of them just killing a clam out of nowhere.

That's my thought as well.

Not sure about the LED lights theory.

In any case, it's done now. It's unfortunate, but I'm not getting this clam back.

If you're certain about the LEDs being an issue, I'll refrain from getting another clam for the time-being. I don't see why LEDs would negatively affect them, but not coral though.

MondoBongo
04/20/2017, 01:40 PM
You are probably not going to want to hear this, and it is hardly scientific, but I am starting to think that most LED lights are not good long-term for clams - I have always thought this about Crocea and Maxima, but this is no huge negative since they require even very power MH or T5 to survive too. Ca1ore had a large long-term squammy die suddenly a little while after switching to Radions - I never would have guessed lights, but I am starting to change my mind. This is another case.

I know that squammys are not super high light clams, but there have been too many deaths under LED to ignore when they even do quite well under lower wattage T5 and MH still.

...again, not scientific, but something to keep in mind perhaps. I don't expect anybody else to agree, but just be on the look out.

i've had my crocea under only LEDs for over 4 years now, and my derasa under only LEDs for just about 4 years now.

jda
04/20/2017, 02:16 PM
I am not certain, but for every case you hear like MondoBongo, you hear of many, many more that did not work... enough so that it seems like successes are the exceptions.

MondoBongo
04/20/2017, 02:39 PM
I am not certain, but for every case you hear like MondoBongo, you hear of many, many more that did not work... enough so that it seems like successes are the exceptions.

i don't really see how i could be an exception?

i'm not using special lights. i'm not doing anything special to sustain them.

i think you're drawing an incorrect conclusion based on a biased sample. this happens a lot on these kinds of boards. for every one person that comes here to talk about how something died, there could be 10, 15, 20 that didn't take the time to stop by and say "nope everything is still fine".

you see this across many different kinds of markets. cars are an excellent parallel. there are certain car models that are notorious on the internet for one defect or another, but when you look at the actual statistics about how often the problem occurs, it is a far lower incident rate than you would expect based on the anecdotal evidence.

correlation does not equal causality.

jda
04/20/2017, 03:06 PM
There are not a lot of people who stop by to ask questions or post about a death, either. Of course message boards are horribly small sample sizes on both sides - people who use one side or the other are usually just trying to manipulate the point. However, when you take into account some of the very excellent stores near me who have had massive amount of clam deaths under LED and they have all subsided when they went back to MH tanks, then you start to wonder. Some of them won't even sell a maxima to a local with LED anymore. Proof no, but turning a blind eye doesn't help either. An observation about a few instances starts to turn into a pattern and then a pattern into a trend and then a trend into a study or some sort of increased awareness and then more can be learned from the observation.

I am not into parallel analogies or false equivalencies, but here one goes... you also see/saw one with LEDs and SPS where people said that they could grow whatever/whenever SPS and when you dig it, they end up being a lot of birdsnest, montis, etc. and usually very small and you rarely (not never, but rarely) see a tank full of big colonies of acropora under LED. A differentiation needed to be made that SPS did not always mean acropora and frags and not colonies This is another exception that needed some time to observe and some still argue that this does not happen. Your story and one that I saw on a TOTM a while back are the only instances where a high-light clam (crocea and maxima) are going after a year (and I assume growing), under LED - this compared with the dozens of failures. Now I know that crocea are not all that available anymore, but squamosa deaths are high too and that just stuns me since I have seen them kept under 2x PC lights for years and years.

petenick
04/20/2017, 03:07 PM
How deep is your tank?

How high above the water is the light?

Was the clam centered under it or off to the side?

For what it's worth, I've had a Maxima under AI Hydra LEDs (15 inches down in tank, lights are 4" above water line... BC29, non direct flow from MP20) for over a year and haven't ever fed it. It just gets light and I suppose whatever it filters out of the water. Maybe I should feed it, but it just keeps growing and seems content so I leave it alone!

Darthv247
04/20/2017, 07:46 PM
I would not blame LEDs alone. I think there is still a lot of learning to be done with LEDs. The hot spots and low spots are more likely to blame. As in no par or too much par for the clams/corals is the culprate. The retailers are taking notice if this and adjusting the spread in the fixtures. anyone running LEDs needs to be aware of their PAR levels and find the correct locations.