PDA

View Full Version : heavy metals found in my triton test- again but corals looking good


codydemmel4
05/16/2017, 01:42 PM
Well I juts got my second triton test back.

I still have high amounts of:

Tin (Sn at 4.3)
Copper (Cu at 6.97)
Aluminum (Al 8.5)
Silicon (Si 273)
Lithium (Li 453)

I have no idea how I am getting these levels. I just changed my filters and I have 0 tds, checked all my pumps and dont have any rust. Where else can I look for this. To store my ATO water I use a 32g brute trashcan that i cleaned 2 weeks ago.

Calcium was 450 so thats good. Br was 77 I guess a little high, P04 was 0.01, Iodine was only 14, Potassium was 401.

I am dosing Flatworm stop everyday, coral booster everyother day and AF vitality everyday. I feed flakes 4 times a day (could that have something with the high heavy metals) I barely do water changes, maybe once every 2 months.

The corals have looked better then ever over the past couple weeks so I am hesitant to change anything but those high heavy metals have more worried as I do have some corals still struggling and sometimes look like that are about to stn from the tips (alk has been very stable at 7.7)

On the detection section of triton, almost every single metal that is slightly too high or too high says it could be from contaminated trace elements or contaminated salts. I am just using Instant Ocean and had to add muritac acid to bring down the alk from 12 to 7 when I do water changes. Could that have something to do with it and what salt mix do you recommend that mixes as close to 7 as possible so I do not have an alk spike?

I sent in the test about 2 hours after I did a 20 gallon water change which is making me think it has something to do with the muritic acid if that is possible or maybe just a bad batch of salt. Or possibly my levels were even higher and that water change made them lower, which is also concerning.

Pife
05/16/2017, 01:47 PM
I am dosing Flatworm stop everyday, coral booster everyother day and AF vitality everyday. I feed flakes 4 times a day (could that have something with the high heavy metals) I barely do water changes, maybe once every 2 months.



Do you know what you are actually putting into the tanks with these additives? Have you done over 100 percent worth of water changes?

swk
05/16/2017, 01:59 PM
Well I juts got my second triton test back.

I still have high amounts of:

Tin (Sn at 4.3)
Copper (Cu at 6.97)
Aluminum (Al 8.5)
Silicon (Si 273)
Lithium (Li 453)

I have no idea how I am getting these levels. I just changed my filters and I have 0 tds, checked all my pumps and dont have any rust. Where else can I look for this. To store my ATO water I use a 32g brute trashcan that i cleaned 2 weeks ago.

Calcium was 450 so thats good. Br was 77 I guess a little high, P04 was 0.01, Iodine was only 14, Potassium was 401.

I am dosing Flatworm stop everyday, coral booster everyother day and AF vitality everyday. I feed flakes 4 times a day (could that have something with the high heavy metals) I barely do water changes, maybe once every 2 months.

The corals have looked better then ever over the past couple weeks so I am hesitant to change anything but those high heavy metals have more worried as I do have some corals still struggling and sometimes look like that are about to stn from the tips (alk has been very stable at 7.7)

On the detection section of triton, almost every single metal that is slightly too high or too high says it could be from contaminated trace elements or contaminated salts. I am just using Instant Ocean and had to add muritac acid to bring down the alk from 12 to 7 when I do water changes. Could that have something to do with it and what salt mix do you recommend that mixes as close to 7 as possible so I do not have an alk spike?

I sent in the test about 2 hours after I did a 20 gallon water change which is making me think it has something to do with the muritic acid if that is possible or maybe just a bad batch of salt. Or possibly my levels were even higher and that water change made them lower, which is also concerning.



I use muratic with every water change and don't have any heavy metal build up on my triton tests fwiw.

codydemmel4
05/16/2017, 02:11 PM
Do you know what you are actually putting into the tanks with these additives? Have you done over 100 percent worth of water changes?

No I do not know exactly what I am putting in but there are a lot of very successful tanks using all three of these additives. I started the FWS and coral booster when I thought I had flatworms but I know now I dont and never did so I kept using these to strength my corals till I ran out then I was most likely going to stop.
No I have not done over 100% water change since my last test because my tds was testing at 1 so I am waiting to get the new canisters for an added carbon block and DI to make sure I have as pure water as possible.

I also am thinking of switching salts, but not sure to which. Right now I really do not want to do anything fast since corals are looking their best in a long time. I will be adding a poly filter and doing smaller water changes once the canisters come in.

codydemmel4
05/16/2017, 02:12 PM
I use muratic with every water change and don't have any heavy metal build up on my triton tests fwiw.

Thanks, this at least makes me feel better about adding that to the instant ocean.

jda
05/16/2017, 02:27 PM
Lots of euros like to add metals to their SPS tank to kill off some of the zoox and make the color contrast more noticeable. Zinc was all the rage a few years ago. Although nobody know what is in these supplements, this is not out of the range of possibility.

Lithium is of no concern. You cannot do anything about it anyway, so forget it. Dr RHF has some nice posts about it and the bottom line after all of the science and paragraphs is to just forget about it.

I use IO, muratic and dowflake for water changes and have no heavy metal issues at all. I would look another place than IO salt.

I would make the argument that your tank getting more mature is the reason that your corals have never looked better... not any of those supplements. I would be shocked if you quit and the corals changed much at all. Usually the gains from using stuff like that come from more stability or from a renewed interest in a tank that draws people to supplements... but it is the basic renewed interest or stability that does the work and not the supplements that people think. I have not checked with them, or read any of their tank posts in a while, but do Copps, Big Ed, etc. use any of this stuff? I doubt that they ever would. In five years when the new batch of stuff comes out, then this stuff will then be a punchline just like Marine Snow, Essential Elements, etc. Can you tell that I don't really think much of these type of things?

BTW - you need to change water more. 20-25% a month. Don't think about it, just do it - nothing is as cheap or more effective. In a few years when you understand more about phosphate swapping with water column, sand and live rock and how important it is to keep it down early, you will be glad that you did. Routine water changes in this range (or more) are the common denominator in the elite tanks that I have studied.

codydemmel4
05/16/2017, 02:38 PM
Lots of euros like to add metals to their SPS tank to kill off some of the zoox and make the color contrast more noticeable. Zinc was all the rage a few years ago. Although nobody know what is in these supplements, this is not out of the range of possibility.

Lithium is of no concern. You cannot do anything about it anyway, so forget it. Dr RHF has some nice posts about it and the bottom line after all of the science and paragraphs is to just forget about it.

I use IO, muratic and dowflake for water changes and have no heavy metal issues at all. I would look another place than IO salt.

I would make the argument that your tank getting more mature is the reason that your corals have never looked better... not any of those supplements. I would be shocked if you quit and the corals changed much at all. Usually the gains from using stuff like that come from more stability or from a renewed interest in a tank that draws people to supplements... but it is the basic renewed interest or stability that does the work and not the supplements that people think. I have not checked with them, or read any of their tank posts in a while, but do Copps, Big Ed, etc. use any of this stuff? I doubt that they ever would. In five years when the new batch of stuff comes out, then this stuff will then be a punchline just like Marine Snow, Essential Elements, etc. Can you tell that I don't really think much of these type of things?

BTW - you need to change water more. 20-25% a month. Don't think about it, just do it - nothing is as cheap or more effective. In a few years when you understand more about phosphate swapping with water column, sand and live rock and how important it is to keep it down early, you will be glad that you did. Routine water changes in this range (or more) are the common denominator in the elite tanks that I have studied.


Greatly appreciate your post. I am starting to think the same that I do not need the supplements, especially FWS and coral booster and it is that my tank is becoming a lot more mature and that is why the coral is encrusting and getting much better PE then before. but I am wary to just stop dosing when things are going right but those high levels make me worried. I am going to do more water changes but was scared to do that with TDS showing as I did not want to pollute the water even more. The canisters are suppose to be here tomorrow so I will do my first water change then, with Instant Ocean since that is all I have at the moment.

The one that does have me very interested in continuing to add is the AF Viatlity that Biggles suggested to replenish a lot of the vitamins that are used, etc and I have been dosing that since last week my corals have looked a lot better. I am debating on stopping the FWS and coral booster but not totally sold on that though as I have seen tanks just as nice as Copps and Big Ed using them with great success while only doing water change once every couple months. I know my tank is still on the new side at half a year old so I need to do more water changes.

jda
05/16/2017, 04:17 PM
If a company will list what is in their product, then I might use it. Vitamins are probably OK... but magic, unknown supplements in a bottle are totally different. Most vitamins that I have seen have IUs on the bottle and you know what you are adding.

jda
05/16/2017, 04:41 PM
BTW - I don't think that there are any vitamins in seawater that are in the AF Vitality.

codydemmel4
05/16/2017, 06:16 PM
BTW - I don't think that there are any vitamins in seawater that are in the AF Vitality.

yeah thinking about stopping fws and coral booster, especially since zeo is known to use copper is some of their stuff

Acromaniac
05/16/2017, 08:38 PM
With all your dosing are you dosing based on the recommended dose? I always take that as the starting point for a fully stocked tank with colonies and then adjust from observations, where as your tank is only frags.

codydemmel4
05/16/2017, 08:40 PM
With all your dosing are you dosing based on the recommended dose? I always take that as the starting point for a fully stocked tank with colonies and then adjust from observations, where as your tank is only frags.

No I am way under the recommended dose

Acromaniac
05/16/2017, 08:52 PM
No I am way under the recommended dose

My bet is still on overdose of additives. Even dosing 10 times less than recommended would probably be considered an overdose.

codydemmel4
05/16/2017, 08:56 PM
My bet is still on overdose of additives. Even dosing 10 times less than recommended would probably be considered an overdose.


but how would that make the levels so high in my tank? It recommends a ml for every 27 gallons a night. That would be around 9 for me and I am dosing 5 a night, so under half.

We dont even know if these have copper etc in them, could be a possibility. I dont even know how I would go about that though. I have just noticed the best I have seen my corals in a long time so I dont exactly what to completely stop them

gdemos
05/16/2017, 09:26 PM
May not be necessary but in addition to more frequent WC you could run CupriSorb for some peace of mind. Triton results can also cause one to freak out sometimes un-necessarily Tank is young still so deep breath, water change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

codydemmel4
05/17/2017, 07:16 AM
yup I decided after thinking about it that I am not going to change any of my dosing since everything looks great. Had great PE again this morning with lights out and all day yesterday. I am going to get some poly filters today and going to do a water change everyweek for a little bit.

I do need to find a copper test though that will help me realize where this is coming from. So I can test my tank, ro/di, fresh saltwater, etc multiple times till I find i tout. If someone could please recommend a good copper test that will recognize these levels that would be great.

SPS911
05/17/2017, 09:34 AM
[QUOTE=jda;25085806]Lots of euros like to add metals to their SPS tank to kill off some of the zoox and make the color contrast more noticeable.

I would make the argument that your tank getting more mature is the reason that your corals have never looked better... not any of those supplements. I would be shocked if you quit and the corals changed much at all. I have not checked with them, or read any of their tank posts in a while, but do Copps, Big Ed, etc. use any of this stuff? I doubt that they ever would. In five years when the new batch of stuff comes out, then this stuff will then be a punchline just like Marine Snow, Essential Elements, etc. Can you tell that I don't really think much of these type of things?
QUOTE]

This.

If it were me I'd slowly back off the additives, just maintain your Alk/CA/Mg and let the tank continue to mature and let those frags grow. Even if the colors aren't bangin, let them grow and then add one additive at a time, if needed, so you can see how the additives tweak the colors.

Keep it simple

naka
05/17/2017, 12:21 PM
Any magnets in your tank?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

outssider
05/17/2017, 06:36 PM
I am dosing Flatworm stop everyday,

why are you dosing this if you don't have flatworms ?

codydemmel4
05/17/2017, 07:56 PM
Any magnets in your tank?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

nope

why are you dosing this if you don't have flatworms ?

because of the other benefits of it, stronger branches and enhanced growth. there are a ton of people using it without copper showing it, I know it is coming from another source but I am not sure where. I need to find a low range copper test that will show copper at this low level so i can do multiple tests

slavetonet
05/17/2017, 09:39 PM
Let me ask you a question.
So having high trace elements cause your corals to do what?

codydemmel4
05/18/2017, 07:05 AM
Let me ask you a question.
So having high trace elements cause your corals to do what?

I mean I am clearly no expert, like you. I am just doing my research and following people who have insane colonies, color and growth.

That is why I am dosing the 3 things I am dosing: Flatworm stop and Coral booster (first started because I thought I had flatworms, never did so I am just continuing till I run out and then I will make a decision to continue or not) AF V because that also has been recommended and since I barely do water changes, I am not giving the corals the vitamins they need. Every since I started the AF V and have been testing alk every single day to make sure it stays at 7.7, the corals have looked great both during the day and especially during the night.

bshow24
05/22/2017, 01:05 AM
I mean I am clearly no expert, like you. I am just doing my research and following people who have insane colonies, color and growth.

That is why I am dosing the 3 things I am dosing: Flatworm stop and Coral booster (first started because I thought I had flatworms, never did so I am just continuing till I run out and then I will make a decision to continue or not) AF V because that also has been recommended and since I barely do water changes, I am not giving the corals the vitamins they need. Every since I started the AF V and have been testing alk every single day to make sure it stays at 7.7, the corals have looked great both during the day and especially during the night.

I think what some are trying to say is, this stuff isn't really necessary. Yes, everyone can recommend dosing a certain product, or to avoid another because it contains traces of bad elements, but in reality water changes, stability, and dosing the major elements (alk, calc, mag) can take care of any tank.

For instance, I don't dose anything but alk and calc and my corals look the best they've ever looked. This after spending money on multiple products which stated they would "help my corals look better and grow faster".

For every tank out there which looks amazing with products being dosed, is another tank with zero going into it. In my opinion, the only thing that can guarantee* healthy corals is stability. And I say this with an asterisk because even that isn't a guarantee. But at least being consistent can give you an awesome reef you can be happy looking at.

Pife
05/22/2017, 05:34 AM
What all pumps and powerheads do you have in your system. How about mag floats? Which heaters do you run? Do you have a magnetic probe holder? I'm curious of all the brands and models? What pump do you use to mix and or transfer salt water?

jda
05/22/2017, 06:11 PM
Copper is SO hard to test with any kind of accuracy. I might suggest that you dose your supplements at full strength 180G dose in a gallon or two of fresh saltwater and see if they copper shows up with more strength. The actual number is not really all that important... rather finding out if any of the "black box" supplements has the copper in it.

Of course, test the freshly mixed water first.

jda
05/22/2017, 06:16 PM
...sorry, I use Salifert. I do not know of any titration kids for copper. I am also not sure which kinds of copper it will find and which kinds the triton tests for. The organic and inorganic and all of that makes copper really hard to monitor. RHF has a lot of articles on copper that I do not even fully understand after reading them a lot of times... all that I know is that it will skim out and it will bind to aragonite, so even traces will disappear from the water column, so adding it regularly is the only real way to keep it around unless you don't skim and are bare bottom without any live rock. This is why I think that it is an additive that it constantly keeping it in the tank - if it came from the salt mix or a container, it should have gotten all bound up or skimmed out by now.

slavetonet
05/22/2017, 08:01 PM
I mean I am clearly no expert, like you. I am just doing my research and following people who have insane colonies, color and growth.

That is why I am dosing the 3 things I am dosing: Flatworm stop and Coral booster (first started because I thought I had flatworms, never did so I am just continuing till I run out and then I will make a decision to continue or not) AF V because that also has been recommended and since I barely do water changes, I am not giving the corals the vitamins they need. Every since I started the AF V and have been testing alk every single day to make sure it stays at 7.7, the corals have looked great both during the day and especially during the night.
I am not an expert at all nor do I want to be called anything.
What is needed to be understood is what is NSW and why is it that composition.
Mainly its 96.5% fresh water and the remainder 3.5% is salt and macro + trace elements
Out of the 3.5% is the minimum critical elements.
After those elements have been taken by all the living organism in the ocean.
You are left with the measurable elements that everyone called NSW.

Corals health is just more than just their big 3 Cal, Alk, Mag.
It's all the fauna that interact with the corals, which we can't even replicate in our home aquarium. This is where the supplements bottles come into play.

codydemmel4
05/23/2017, 10:04 AM
What all pumps and powerheads do you have in your system. How about mag floats? Which heaters do you run? Do you have a magnetic probe holder? I'm curious of all the brands and models? What pump do you use to mix and or transfer salt water?

reeflo pump for the return, 3 jabeo pp15s, 1 gyre 150. Yes I have one mag float on the display tank. I run 2 aqueon heaters that have been good and keep the tank very stable at 78-79.

for mixing I use a mag 18, that is pretty worn but I do not see any signs of rust.

I also never show any signs of copper when I do the polyfilter but it has to be something very minimal and it doesnt effect every acro but once it does "hit" them it will be after about 2-3 weeks of them being in my tank and they will slowly slowly decline over another 2-3 weeks. Some coral continue to look great when others just slowly decline. very confusing, but that last triton test did show a ton of unwanted stuff in my tank.

codydemmel4
05/23/2017, 10:06 AM
...sorry, I use Salifert. I do not know of any titration kids for copper. I am also not sure which kinds of copper it will find and which kinds the triton tests for. The organic and inorganic and all of that makes copper really hard to monitor. RHF has a lot of articles on copper that I do not even fully understand after reading them a lot of times... all that I know is that it will skim out and it will bind to aragonite, so even traces will disappear from the water column, so adding it regularly is the only real way to keep it around unless you don't skim and are bare bottom without any live rock. This is why I think that it is an additive that it constantly keeping it in the tank - if it came from the salt mix or a container, it should have gotten all bound up or skimmed out by now.

Yeah it is strange, maybe I will try that suggestion of dosing a full strength into 1 gallon to see if copper shows up. However since I stopped dosing flatworm stop and coral booster, my corals dont have as good of PE

jda
05/23/2017, 10:10 AM
That is kinda what I was saying with all of the different kinds of free and bound and organic and inorganic kinds of copper, it might be impossible to test the same way as the triton test did. There is copper in seawater, but I forget which kind and in what concentrations.

Don't chase PE. It is as fruitless as chasing PH. Just keep everything else in good shape and the corals will be fine. I have nearly no PE except for my Milles and a Wonderland Tenius, but I like to keep fish so next to nothing that I do will help that... but I can grow corals out of my tank in three years, which is about what other people can do in that same timeframe.

codydemmel4
05/23/2017, 10:34 AM
That is kinda what I was saying with all of the different kinds of free and bound and organic and inorganic kinds of copper, it might be impossible to test the same way as the triton test did. There is copper in seawater, but I forget which kind and in what concentrations.

Don't chase PE. It is as fruitless as chasing PH. Just keep everything else in good shape and the corals will be fine. I have nearly no PE except for my Milles and a Wonderland Tenius, but I like to keep fish so next to nothing that I do will help that... but I can grow corals out of my tank in three years, which is about what other people can do in that same timeframe.

Im not chasing PE but I do look at it as a good indicator how my corals are doing because once they start to not have as good PE, that is when I notice the tips starting to STN or the side of the coral. The alk has been very very stable at 7.7, I have been checking everyday so I know there is no alk swing

codydemmel4
05/23/2017, 10:56 AM
I am not an expert at all nor do I want to be called anything.
What is needed to be understood is what is NSW and why is it that composition.
Mainly its 96.5% fresh water and the remainder 3.5% is salt and macro + trace elements
Out of the 3.5% is the minimum critical elements.
After those elements have been taken by all the living organism in the ocean.
You are left with the measurable elements that everyone called NSW.

Corals health is just more than just their big 3 Cal, Alk, Mag.
It's all the fauna that interact with the corals, which we can't even replicate in our home aquarium. This is where the supplements bottles come into play.

I would call you an expert considering how nice your tank is haha. I did stop dosing FWS and coral booster on the 18th and the corals do not look as good as they did when I stopped. Unfortunately I have no way of showing if copper and the other unwanted metals went down.

codydemmel4
05/23/2017, 02:14 PM
<a href="http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/codydemmel4/media/new%20180/BDCEE063-7774-479E-9DCC-D8AA170F63BC_zpsglcagspc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah230/codydemmel4/new%20180/BDCEE063-7774-479E-9DCC-D8AA170F63BC_zpsglcagspc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo BDCEE063-7774-479E-9DCC-D8AA170F63BC_zpsglcagspc.jpg"></a>

Can see some of the tips of this birdnest have algae growing on it because it had stan from the tip.

<a href="http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/codydemmel4/media/new%20180/BCA5C354-7547-4042-B388-08A1904ED32C_zpszctkjauk.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah230/codydemmel4/new%20180/BCA5C354-7547-4042-B388-08A1904ED32C_zpszctkjauk.png" border="0" alt=" photo BCA5C354-7547-4042-B388-08A1904ED32C_zpszctkjauk.png"></a>

Can see this acro is stning and dying.

<a href="http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/codydemmel4/media/new%20180/DDF922F7-4A17-46F7-95BE-6802ECEA832C_zpszmbhdfym.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah230/codydemmel4/new%20180/DDF922F7-4A17-46F7-95BE-6802ECEA832C_zpszmbhdfym.png" border="0" alt=" photo DDF922F7-4A17-46F7-95BE-6802ECEA832C_zpszmbhdfym.png"></a>

Same with this acro which was looking great 2 weeks ago.

<a href="http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/codydemmel4/media/new%20180/3E467D3E-49D4-469C-B775-CB7E5DD98DB6_zpskv4webkz.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah230/codydemmel4/new%20180/3E467D3E-49D4-469C-B775-CB7E5DD98DB6_zpskv4webkz.png" border="0" alt=" photo 3E467D3E-49D4-469C-B775-CB7E5DD98DB6_zpskv4webkz.png"></a>

Same with this one, starts to stn on the tips and then the branch does.

<a href="http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/codydemmel4/media/new%20180/B643AF63-2453-41AE-AAA6-F6A8D87856CA_zpsetcquz14.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah230/codydemmel4/new%20180/B643AF63-2453-41AE-AAA6-F6A8D87856CA_zpsetcquz14.png" border="0" alt=" photo B643AF63-2453-41AE-AAA6-F6A8D87856CA_zpsetcquz14.png"></a>

This one isn't STNing yet but I feel like it will anyday now, just doesn't look near as good as it did 2-3 weeks ago.

<a href="http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/codydemmel4/media/new%20180/90AADCD7-B3EF-465C-92D3-5D94A3F9C935_zps3ztmnqud.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah230/codydemmel4/new%20180/90AADCD7-B3EF-465C-92D3-5D94A3F9C935_zps3ztmnqud.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 90AADCD7-B3EF-465C-92D3-5D94A3F9C935_zps3ztmnqud.jpg"></a>

Then I have all of these that look great, which is why this is so confusing.

<a href="http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/codydemmel4/media/new%20180/5791B7AF-67F7-4B41-97D8-770A796C87CA_zpsh0cwwdsl.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah230/codydemmel4/new%20180/5791B7AF-67F7-4B41-97D8-770A796C87CA_zpsh0cwwdsl.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5791B7AF-67F7-4B41-97D8-770A796C87CA_zpsh0cwwdsl.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/codydemmel4/media/new%20180/78FC783C-00FA-479C-B948-2DA30BD1556B_zpstvje82x2.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah230/codydemmel4/new%20180/78FC783C-00FA-479C-B948-2DA30BD1556B_zpstvje82x2.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 78FC783C-00FA-479C-B948-2DA30BD1556B_zpstvje82x2.jpg"></a>

jda
05/24/2017, 09:35 AM
Are those burnt tips from a few months back with the alk issues? If so, you need to snip those off - they will heal many times faster than they will grow over the dead tissue (if they do at all).

You are going to lose some frags, especially in a newer tank. A few is nothing to worry about... a lot is different. STN is different. Now that you have everything nice and stable, don't sweat a dead frag every once in a while... it is really hard to ignore, I know, but it happens.

Are you seeing new encrusting on ones that did not have STN issues? If so, then you are good. Some of those that look like Milles look like they have encrusted the plugs and rocks, which is excellent. The ones that had some of the tip burn or STN can take a year or more to fully recover, so don't give up on them but don't use them as a bellweather either. FWIW - I had a friend give me a SC Orange Passion (which I already have) that had burnt tips and some STN to see if I could save it... and even though I clipped the tip and remounted it fresh, it has been almost a year and it has only just healed and encrusted about 1-2 MM... the one that I have has grown from golfball to about softball size in that same time.

The recovery time for an alk disaster is one of the main reasons why you don't see many of the super-experienced strive for ULN tanks... the minimal gains are just not worth walking that thin line where a year setback could be on the horizon with one small misstep. Most of them like low nutrient tanks, but in the range where alk at 10 will cause you any issues. ...sorry for this tangent.

If you want to help out the ones that got damaged, take them off of the rocks, remount them on frag plugs and put them on a frag rack really close to the lights. ...move them up slowly over a week, but eventually get them under 4 to 6" of water and let them get more energy from the lights. If they are on the back or side, just rotate them a bit to get all sides exposed to the light. You can also buy a clip-on light just for frags - I really like to use a 150W HQI Hamilton Bimini Sun if I get a batch of frags or do a fresh cutting... just clip it onto the side right over a frag rack for a while and let it shine straight down, then take it down when I don't need it. This is not necessary, but can help when I don't want frags to get lost in my frag tank which can get unruly at times with high end shrooms, sunbursts, zoas and some fish in between cleanouts.

codydemmel4
05/24/2017, 09:52 AM
Are those burnt tips from a few months back with the alk issues? If so, you need to snip those off - they will heal many times faster than they will grow over the dead tissue (if they do at all).

You are going to lose some frags, especially in a newer tank. A few is nothing to worry about... a lot is different. STN is different. Now that you have everything nice and stable, don't sweat a dead frag every once in a while... it is really hard to ignore, I know, but it happens.

Are you seeing new encrusting on ones that did not have STN issues? If so, then you are good. Some of those that look like Milles look like they have encrusted the plugs and rocks, which is excellent. The ones that had some of the tip burn or STN can take a year or more to fully recover, so don't give up on them but don't use them as a bellweather either. FWIW - I had a friend give me a SC Orange Passion (which I already have) that had burnt tips and some STN to see if I could save it... and even though I clipped the tip and remounted it fresh, it has been almost a year and it has only just healed and encrusted about 1-2 MM... the one that I have has grown from golfball to about softball size in that same time.

The recovery time for an alk disaster is one of the main reasons why you don't see many of the super-experienced strive for ULN tanks... the minimal gains are just not worth walking that thin line where a year setback could be on the horizon with one small misstep. Most of them like low nutrient tanks, but in the range where alk at 10 will cause you any issues. ...sorry for this tangent.

If you want to help out the ones that got damaged, take them off of the rocks, remount them on frag plugs and put them on a frag rack really close to the lights. ...move them up slowly over a week, but eventually get them under 4 to 6" of water and let them get more energy from the lights. If they are on the back or side, just rotate them a bit to get all sides exposed to the light. You can also buy a clip-on light just for frags - I really like to use a 150W HQI Hamilton Bimini Sun if I get a batch of frags or do a fresh cutting... just clip it onto the side right over a frag rack for a while and let it shine straight down, then take it down when I don't need it. This is not necessary, but can help when I don't want frags to get lost in my frag tank which can get unruly at times with high end shrooms, sunbursts, zoas and some fish in between cleanouts.


None of them with the STN or burnt tips in those pictures were in the tank when I had the alk burn. I legit lost every single coral besides maybe 2-5 which are doing good now. But I am still losing newer frags that I got from local reefers, they look great for 2-3 weeks then seem to slowly get STN on the tips or side of the coral that is getting the most light, which I know is not too much light but confuses me. My 8x80w sunpower is 9 inches off the water and all the frags are at least 6 inches down from that so at least 15 inches off the light. This is why I am thinking the unwanted hevay metals are very slowly having an impact on my tank, which thinking back is probably my fault. I left the TDS at 1 for too long and have not done enough water changes. So what I am going to do moving forward is at least 1 water change a week and monitor the tank very closely. Still going to be tetsing alk every day. Some corals are encrusting and looking good, especially the millies but the tenuis, stags and birdsnest just look so so.

You are very right that it is hard just watching a coral die but I am realizing that it is okay and to just look at the overall health which I think is improving. I will be doing my first water weekly water change tonight or tomorrow depending on time.

Why do you say move the ones up that are having stn issues with the tips? Dont most people suggest to move them down?

jda
05/24/2017, 10:10 AM
You are right that heavy metal poisoning is a slow process. You could be on the money here. Water changes will help a lot. I don't usually mess with DI and RO carts until my TDS hits 2 or 3, but I guess that all depends what the 2 or 3. Of course, zero is better and they need to be changed, but I would doubt that 1 TDS was much of the issue. Some Cuprisorb might be a good idea. Polyfilter can get some forms of metals, but not all.

That is not too much light. No way. Don't sweat the SunPower.

Most people that suggest moving them down have low quality lights like most LEDs and their "playing" with the panels or the lenses is what caused most of the issues. With a high quality light like your T5 or even a MH, more light is always better. I always move them up, but 14K Phoenix and 20K Radium are no issue for corals. Slow is important. However, I don't have issues with tissue dying on the lighted side, so maybe leaving them alone until this subsides might be good and you can move them up later.

codydemmel4
05/24/2017, 10:19 AM
You are right that heavy metal poisoning is a slow process. You could be on the money here. Water changes will help a lot. I don't usually mess with DI and RO carts until my TDS hits 2 or 3, but I guess that all depends what the 2 or 3. Of course, zero is better and they need to be changed, but I would doubt that 1 TDS was much of the issue. Some Cuprisorb might be a good idea. Polyfilter can get some forms of metals, but not all.

That is not too much light. No way. Don't sweat the SunPower.

Most people that suggest moving them down have low quality lights like most LEDs and their "playing" with the panels or the lenses is what caused most of the issues. With a high quality light like your T5 or even a MH, more light is always better. I always move them up, but 14K Phoenix and 20K Radium are no issue for corals. Slow is important. However, I don't have issues with tissue dying on the lighted side, so maybe leaving them alone until this subsides might be good and you can move them up later.


I have the standard 90 gpd spectrapure, but I added another carbon block with chloramines (read that my city sometimes uses them) and I also added another DI (since both of these were all together only $45 I thought it was well worth it) So I make sure I am adding in as pure as water as possible, my tap water does read over 300 on the handheld TDS. I am going to send in another triton test in a month to see if anything has changed with these water changes, etc. If copper and other unwanted metals are still high after that, then I am at a lost.

codydemmel4
05/24/2017, 02:39 PM
I just realized and remembered that since the house I moved into is built in 1950, all of the pipes are copper so I am sure they have a higher copper content then the other house I lived in which was built in the 2000s. Could this have something to do with this or am I over thinking now since I use an RO/DI?

Pife
05/24/2017, 03:20 PM
Simple answer. No.

jda
05/24/2017, 06:20 PM
It would take several lifetimes for copper in a pipe to break down into your water supply. This is not an issue.

codydemmel4
05/24/2017, 08:17 PM
I am clueless on what is going on then. The tips become looking very very brittle and look like theyre been nipped at or something but I know that is not the issue. Then after the tips start to look brittle, they start to STN and then that coral will slowly die over 1-2 weeks. Even if I cut off the brittle part, the new frag will look good for a couple days and then the same thing will happen over again.

Pife
05/24/2017, 09:09 PM
I am clueless on what is going on then. The tips become looking very very brittle and look like theyre been nipped at or something but I know that is not the issue. Then after the tips start to look brittle, they start to STN and then that coral will slowly die over 1-2 weeks. Even if I cut off the brittle part, the new frag will look good for a couple days and then the same thing will happen over again.

Are all your acros doing this?

swnoob
05/25/2017, 12:19 AM
Everything you're describing sounds like what my corals suffered when i had low nutrients. I always tried to keep my tank at <.02 phosphates and <5 nitrates while i ran an alk of 7.

I also thought i had maybe something leaching heavy metals in my tank but never sent in my water sample to get tested. I did daily 10% water changes for several weeks to try and get whatever it was out but looks like i was doing more damage than good.

I have since bumped my phosphates to >.08 with nitrates to 20 and an alk of 8.5. My tank is looking better than ever with good growth.

I also did not do any water changes for a couple months but dosed couple drops of lugols and 2 mls of replenish daily.

I recently fragged a bunch and did not find any brittle acros like before.

chercm
05/25/2017, 12:53 AM
Everything you're describing sounds like what my corals suffered when i had low nutrients. I always tried to keep my tank at <.02 phosphates and <5 nitrates while i ran an alk of 7.

I also thought i had maybe something leaching heavy metals in my tank but never sent in my water sample to get tested. I did daily 10% water changes for several weeks to try and get whatever it was out but looks like i was doing more damage than good.

I have since bumped my phosphates to >.08 with nitrates to 20 and an alk of 8.5. My tank is looking better than ever with good growth.

I also did not do any water changes for a couple months but dosed couple drops of lugols and 2 mls of replenish daily.

I recently fragged a bunch and did not find any brittle acros like before.

seems like a lot of us are havin the same issue that the tips seems to nip on with brown alage growing. i did the triton and came back with high chronium and cobalt but nothing is rusty in my tank

codydemmel4
05/25/2017, 06:34 AM
Are all your acros doing this?


I would say 80% are with 2-3 weeks of being in my tank. they look great and then all of a sudden they slowly decline starting from the very top tip of the coral, then hit about every branch tip

codydemmel4
05/25/2017, 06:35 AM
Everything you're describing sounds like what my corals suffered when i had low nutrients. I always tried to keep my tank at <.02 phosphates and <5 nitrates while i ran an alk of 7.

I also thought i had maybe something leaching heavy metals in my tank but never sent in my water sample to get tested. I did daily 10% water changes for several weeks to try and get whatever it was out but looks like i was doing more damage than good.

I have since bumped my phosphates to >.08 with nitrates to 20 and an alk of 8.5. My tank is looking better than ever with good growth.

I also did not do any water changes for a couple months but dosed couple drops of lugols and 2 mls of replenish daily.

I recently fragged a bunch and did not find any brittle acros like before.

Thanks for the reply, I do not wanna raise my alk higher then where it is now I know that. I will try to raise my nurtients but I do not think mine are that low for it to be involved with that. However I will test my nutrients today and check back here with what the hanna ulr says

codydemmel4
05/25/2017, 06:36 AM
seems like a lot of us are havin the same issue that the tips seems to nip on with brown alage growing. i did the triton and came back with high chronium and cobalt but nothing is rusty in my tank


Yeah it is very strange and annoying.








I am not sure if this is anything but before the move of the tank when my corals did great. My rose bubble tip anemone used to extend very very long and almost look like a long tentacle anemone. Now in the new home it is a lot smaller and bubbles up like the pictures you see on live aquaria etc. Would that prove anything?

codydemmel4
05/25/2017, 07:57 AM
What about iodine?

I saw some threads that said low iodine could cause alk burn like symptoms. on my triton tests my iodine has been 7 and 10, triton suggest 60 and the great barrier reef is right around 60 too

Pife
05/25/2017, 08:32 AM
What about iodine?

I saw some threads that said low iodine could cause alk burn like symptoms. on my triton tests my iodine has been 7 and 10, triton suggest 60 and the great barrier reef is right around 60 too

Why not dose a couple of drops of lugals a day for a week and see if there is any changes. I'd do it rather than not do anything.

codydemmel4
05/25/2017, 09:08 AM
Why not dose a couple of drops of lugals a day for a week and see if there is any changes. I'd do it rather than not do anything.

I will have to look into it, doing more water changes would raise iodine too correct? I have no idea how to test for iodine though, dont wanna over dose

jda
05/25/2017, 09:10 AM
Lugols is not a good source of I that the corals can use. Yes, salt mix does have I in it. You can test for I, but I cannot remember if it is Iodine, Iodide, Free, Bonded, etc.

Before you dose or test for I, read up on a RHF article about which one you need.

codydemmel4
05/25/2017, 09:48 AM
Lugols is not a good source of I that the corals can use. Yes, salt mix does have I in it. You can test for I, but I cannot remember if it is Iodine, Iodide, Free, Bonded, etc.

Before you dose or test for I, read up on a RHF article about which one you need.

Why do you say it is not good? A lot of the reefers on here use it with looks like great success

jda
05/25/2017, 10:15 AM
It adds the wrong kind that the coral cannot use, I2 IIRC. I cannot remember if it is Iodine and the coral want Iodide or Iodate, or the other way, or what? It might have one -, when it needs I2... something like that.

It is another supplement that probably is not doing what most folks think that it is doing... like nearly all of them outside of what is in seawater.

I2 is good to kill stuff in dips, but does nothing in a tank where it breaks down very rapidly.

These are good:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/3/chemistry
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/4/chemistry

jda
05/25/2017, 10:22 AM
I brushed up on it a bit. Iodate and Iodide are present in seawater. Lugols is I2 - elemental Iodine, which is not in seawater and breaks down quickly when added. The folks who swear that they can see a difference by adding Lugols actually have nothing since it does nothing in seawater.

You can buy Iodide and Iodate to supplement if you want - these are at least in seawater and could be used by the organisms in theory.

Triton tests for Organic Iodine, which nobody else sells a test kit for, so info is very sparse on this.

In any case, Lugols is a good dip, but nearly certainly does nothing otherwise.

codydemmel4
05/25/2017, 10:27 AM
I brushed up on it a bit. Iodate and Iodide are present in seawater. Lugols is I2 - elemental Iodine, which is not in seawater and breaks down quickly when added. The folks who swear that they can see a difference by adding Lugols actually have nothing since it does nothing in seawater.

You can buy Iodide and Iodate to supplement if you want - these are at least in seawater and could be used by the organisms in theory.

Triton tests for Organic Iodine, which nobody else sells a test kit for, so info is very sparse on this.

In any case, Lugols is a good dip, but nearly certainly does nothing otherwise.


thanks for the info, I greatly appreciate it!

codydemmel4
05/26/2017, 10:41 AM
so what i am going to do starting today:

30g water changes every week, feed more to try to bring phosphates up to between 0.05-0.1 leave nitrate where they are between 4-8. quit dosing anything besides brs 2 part, lower full t5 lighting period to 7 hours.

continue checking alk daily, I want to lower it to 7.3-7.5. Thinking about using coprisorb to get rid of the heavy metals faster then the water changes.

Thoughts?

jda
05/26/2017, 02:22 PM
I am a huge fan of water changes. They fix so much.

Do you use IO? If so, is it the 50G bags? If so, then get a 44G Brute, fill nearly to top with cold water, put in whole 50G bag and 2 TBSP of dowflake. Mix. The next day put in 20mls of Muratic acid and turn the heater on. Let this aerate for a day or so until the PH is back up to normal - a cheap PH pen can really help with this. This should make up a pretty good SPS mix for you. You can test it out and tweak the muratic and dowflake as you desire... maybe a bit more muratic as you are trying to lower your alk in the tank, but go slow.

Cubrisorb is fine. It won't take long.

I would not worry about the phosphates. If you are not actively removing them (GFO or organic carbon), then they will be at a fine level for the dinos in the coral to eat.

codydemmel4
05/26/2017, 02:27 PM
I am a huge fan of water changes. They fix so much.

Do you use IO? If so, is it the 50G bags? If so, then get a 44G Brute, fill nearly to top with cold water, put in whole 50G bag and 2 TBSP of dowflake. Mix. The next day put in 20mls of Muratic acid and turn the heater on. Let this aerate for a day or so until the PH is back up to normal - a cheap PH pen can really help with this. This should make up a pretty good SPS mix for you. You can test it out and tweak the muratic and dowflake as you desire... maybe a bit more muratic as you are trying to lower your alk in the tank, but go slow.

Cubrisorb is fine. It won't take long.

I would not worry about the phosphates. If you are not actively removing them (GFO or organic carbon), then they will be at a fine level for the dinos in the coral to eat.


Yeah I use IO and the 50g. I have no idea what dowflake is but I will be adding Muratic Acid to the mix and letting that aerate for awhile with pumps running. Maybe I should make the water outside to help the PH go up even faster.

jda
05/26/2017, 02:35 PM
Dowflake is a calcium carbonate that is sold as ice melter. It is the same stuff that people spend 10x the money for at BRS, or the like. You can get like a lifetime supply of it for cheap. It is pure and great stuff.

As a two-part guy, you really need to get 50lb bag of DowFlake... and the huge thing of Baking Soda at Costco or Sams.

jda
05/26/2017, 02:43 PM
You can use this formula for a rough estimate for Muratic. Gallons * desired dKh drop * .123 = MLs or Muratic to use. 20ml is a good place to start with IO.

Remember that super low alk is not a huge deal if you are not driving your nutrients to zero. I like mine around 8, but I won't sweat it if they get down to 7 before I bump the CaRx up, which might hit 9 right after I do. I keep my N very near zero (the rock and sand does this naturally) and the phosphate about 3-5 on Hannah ULR Checker. I consider myself Low Nutrient, but not Ultra Low.

codydemmel4
05/26/2017, 03:08 PM
Dowflake is a calcium carbonate that is sold as ice melter. It is the same stuff that people spend 10x the money for at BRS, or the like. You can get like a lifetime supply of it for cheap. It is pure and great stuff.

As a two-part guy, you really need to get 50lb bag of DowFlake... and the huge thing of Baking Soda at Costco or Sams.

i will check these out and thanks for that equation

lynchmob3000
05/28/2017, 12:15 PM
What did the triton test come back with for potassium and strontium?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

lynchmob3000
05/28/2017, 12:17 PM
I do know that low po4 causes weaker branching for sure. I listened to Richard Ross do a talk about po4 and he was saying at a high levels acros seem to have thicker stronger branching. So if your suffering from too low then I would supplement. At this point they are dying so no love lost.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jda
05/28/2017, 07:56 PM
There is almost no PO4 in the ocean. I don't ever remember seeing thin branched SPS in nature. I have never observed this phenomenon personally in my reef and I keep the PO4 under .01 most of the time.

Piper27
05/29/2017, 07:22 AM
Yea I don't get why he said that. I saw one of his speeches before and was half in and half out. I had problems when I had high phosphates and had softer branches... Mine always reads 0 on Hanna checker constantly and I have no issues. As do a ton of other reefers.
Cody I would just put in a metal filter and maybe something else to help if your worried. No need to do water changes if you can fix what's wrong without them, although they won't hurt as long as they are not too big and too often. I would not change much if things look ok that way you can tell exactly what's making improvements. Alk does not matter, just keep it stable. Feeding more is going to raise nitrate and phosphates, and nutrients should be stable as well. I would leave the phosphates where they are since your corals are not starving. Good luck, I think with time the tank will settle in real nice as long as corals are clean and healthy and your system is stable.

lynchmob3000
05/29/2017, 12:30 PM
Just his observation in guessing. He was showing pictures of how his acros formed at a po4 of 2.5 and they definitely seemed denser as a whole. Could be high flow but he definitely had deep rich color with thick thick acros branching. Not so much that they weren't brittle just seemed larger in size.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jda
05/29/2017, 03:44 PM
Nobody who has PO4 of 2.5 should be giving any advice on SPS. Even fewer people should be listening to them. Whatever is happing in that tank might be unreplicatable in any other.

lynchmob3000
05/29/2017, 05:06 PM
Meh


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

swnoob
05/29/2017, 05:38 PM
Best advice I can give is stop reading into everyone's advice and look for that sweet spot in YOUR tank. No one knows it better than you. Do not change more than a couple things at a time so you know what works and what doesn't. I make note of water parameters, feedings, husbandry and any changes i make when my tank is doing bad but also when it looks great that way i can go back and undo the change or fix water parameters.

What may work in other tanks may not necessarily work in yours. I believe that is the number one thing people tend to ignore when giving advice.

Stolireef
05/29/2017, 06:19 PM
Best advice I can give is stop reading into everyone's advice and look for that sweet spot in YOUR tank. No one knows it better than you. Do not change more than a couple things at a time so you know what works and what doesn't. I make note of water parameters, feedings, husbandry and any changes i make when my tank is doing bad but also when it looks great that way i can go back and undo the change or fix water parameters.

What may work in other tanks may not necessarily work in yours. I believe that is the number one thing people tend to ignore when giving advice.

I really think this is the best advice you've received on this thread. IMHO, by far the best test kits you have are your eyes and what some call your 'reef thumb'. When dialing in a new tank, it's good to know your parameters but the goal isn't to chase a number but rather to find a number that seems to work in your tank and then maintain its stability.

By way of example, I consider cyano to be my canary. If I see it, I know my nutrients are rising. If I see a little bit that isn't getting worse, I usually just ignore it. If it seems to be getting worse, I either increase nutrient export (run skimmer a little wetter) or decrease import (feed a little less).

This isn't to say testing is bad, just that there are very few certainties in this hobby. We neither know enough nor do we have sufficiently accurate test kits to operate with true precision. I do four tests each week (nitrate, ca, alk, mg). So long as the numbers don't change, I really don't worry about what they actually are unless something looks wrong in the tank.