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Bulldog88
05/22/2017, 09:53 PM
Trying to line up equipment and plan the build to the T. So, just as the title states, which would everyone prefer? Considering equipment upfront costs vs long term costs. You hear horror stories of a reactor malfunctioning and it not ending well. But it seems that a calc reactor is a more hands off piece of equipment. Suggestions are welcome thank you.

undertai
05/22/2017, 11:42 PM
Doser for me as I don't have lots of room inside stand for all the larger equipment. Plus dosers can be changed quickly, depending on needs.


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Alfrareef
05/23/2017, 02:11 AM
Doser for sure.
Doser for low consumption and CReactor for the high consumer tank. But I also use the doser for adding supplements to the tank.

bif24701
05/23/2017, 03:45 AM
Kalk. Single additive for both ALK/Cal, also boasts pH.

I use a doser timed via APEX to run 4 min every 1/2 hour.

Perfectly stable, available, dependable, and affordable!!

I can not understand why more don't use Kalk. I would be willing to bet that Kalk would be certainly capable of supporting >80% reefer out there. Maybe more. My 60+ SPS frags and colonies get all they need from Kalk alone.

I've had 5 gallon buckets of 2part on hand for a full year expecting to put grow Kalk but hasn't happened yet. Still I will continue to use fully saturated Kalk for my ATO with 2part when required.


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Wrangy
05/23/2017, 05:19 AM
I'm currently making the switch from the dosing to a calcium reactor. I've never had any issues with dosing but I've always been super keen to give a calcium reactor a go!

Bpb
05/23/2017, 06:02 AM
Agree 100% on the kalkwasser comments above. I prefer a calcium reactor in practice, if set up correctly. The amount of daily and weekly maintenance they can reduce is so nice and I like how they add not just ca and alk, but also any minor elements needed for skeleton building in perfect proportions.

But the cost of startup is definitely prohibitive for many people


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dougchambers
05/23/2017, 08:32 AM
We ran a 2-chamber Calcium Reactor w/integrated pH probe and Kalk reactor on our ATO for a number of years. When a Ca reactor is setup correctly, I found it to work great. However, I got tired of chasing inconsistent drip rates, clogged pumps, etc. etc...

Just over a year ago, we switched to dosing with bulk media from BRS. Our CA/ALK/Mg numbers have NEVER been as stable. Calibrate the pumps, measure your consumption rates, and set the pumps. I dose the Alk at night to offset the daily pH swing and dose Ca/Mg across 24hrs. When we see consumption rates start to increase due to coral growth, it's a simple and precise adjustment rather than guessing at drips.

My ONLY complaint in switching to dosing is having to mix and refill my dosing containers but that's only once/month and I mix ~2months worth at a time so it's tolerable.

Denadai
05/23/2017, 10:16 AM
Im dosing here plus kalk dripping

I used to run a ca reactor but today I prefer dosing, very simple

If you just use kalk, you also need to dose Mg

Best Regards

Piper27
05/23/2017, 11:06 AM
Kalk stirred top off with a correct setup so you use a completely saturated solution at all times, this will take care of most people's needs if done right.
On top of that a calcium reactor, carbon doser regulator, and a masterflex pump is all that is needed to run a calcium reactor safe and easy. No inconsistent drips or bubbles to mess with and no flushing out needle valves. Dosing pumps will fail before any of this equipment will fail. And a dosing pump will crash a tank quicker than a calcium reactor set up correctly. Obviously both require monitoring but calcium reactor you never need to fiddle with much at all.
If you have a tank with low consumption just dose by hand daily, many successful reefers dose by hand, even ones with high consumption and lots of corals. This makes sure they don't have any equipment fail and crash their tanks.

ADVRESOURCE
05/23/2017, 11:41 AM
I use both DOS dosers and a Calcium Reactor. Dialing in the reactor is required. The dialing is isn't that difficult as long as you stick with the manufactures recommended initial settings along with using a calibrated PH controller. The effluent won't clog as long as you have enough effluent flow. Typically, 50 ml / min. Bubble rates start off at 100 bubbles per minute (using the plant controller from BRS) and the PH for the controller set to 6.5. If you test the effluent and it's not 2-3X alk of your display, then adjust the ph controller to a lower setpoint (small adjustment) and continue until the PH of the effluent is 2-3x tank alk. After the Reactor starts reacting, adjustments can be made by changing bubble size, changing bubble count, or adjusting effluent rate.

During the process of dialing in the reactor, I dose using the DOS dosers. I also take care of any imbalances using the DOS doser during regular operation.
Having a dual setup alleviates the issues commonly observed in the reefing community. I've had APEX dosing errors and I've had low CO2 levels that didn't allow proper Calcium reactor adjustment. All issues are PAR for the course.
I think regular testing and adjustment flexibility is the key to reefing success.

I tried minimal Kalk dosing and found that it increases Calcium something fierce and can raise PH too high. Testing and adjustment is good. I just didn't have good luck with Kalk.

ADVRESOURCE
05/23/2017, 11:46 AM
Oh, I like the reactor the best. Main reason: for larger tanks - the dosing with the reactor is constant. Thus, no alk or ca spikes. When dosing, there's a chance that with higher amounts of additive, that there would be high concentration of alk prior to total mixing in the tank. Thus, some corals won't be happy.

If you keep alk and ca mostly stable, then small amounts of additive can be used for balancing only.

chgoblknazn
05/23/2017, 12:03 PM
I've got a smaller tank and I made the switch from dosing manually to a calcium reactor over a year ago. The amount of my involvement in dosing now is almost nothing, and I really like that. I check the drip when I am servicing the sump a couple times a week to make sure it's dripping and that's it. I have been using the same 5 lb tank of CO2 that I initially purchased when I set it up and I don't have to fiddle with anything. The apex takes care of it all.

The initial cost of setup was a bit substantial but worth it considering how much time I spent measuring calcium and alk and the cost of gallons of supplements. I would never run a tank without one, now that I see how maintenance-free it is.

Denadai
05/23/2017, 01:31 PM
And a dosing pump will crash a tank quicker than a calcium reactor set up correctly.

I keep a medium / small container with the solutions A, B and C...so my tank will never crash with a dosing pump failure

Best regards

Piper27
05/23/2017, 01:44 PM
Even a small container of alk dosed all at once from a stuck pump would put a big hurting on a smaller tank though right? Also I got so tired of refilling smaller containers. And forgetting to refill them also caused slight problems for me.

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swk
05/23/2017, 04:18 PM
Calrx by a mile. More stable when set up right. Doses trace and everything in perfect ratios. If a doser malfunctions kiss a tank goodbye.

Pife
05/23/2017, 04:46 PM
Calcium reactor. Once setup easy to run!

river2reef2024
05/23/2017, 10:27 PM
Kalk. Single additive for both ALK/Cal, also boasts pH.

I use a doser timed via APEX to run 4 min every 1/2 hour.

Perfectly stable, available, dependable, and affordable!!

I can not understand why more don't use Kalk. I would be willing to bet that Kalk would be certainly capable of supporting >80% reefer out there. Maybe more. My 60+ SPS frags and colonies get all they need from Kalk alone.

I've had 5 gallon buckets of 2part on hand for a full year expecting to put grow Kalk but hasn't happened yet. Still I will continue to use fully saturated Kalk for my ATO with 2part when required.


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What's the main difference in Kalk and brs 2 part

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Alfrareef
05/24/2017, 01:10 AM
Agree 100% on the Kalkwasser comments but for me still has high risk. I've got a large ATO and don't want to risk a failure and crash the tank. Also, the stirrer cost it's high and to have a fail safe/control cost more money.

jda
05/24/2017, 08:15 AM
Eventually, as your colonies grow, you won't be able to replace enough saturated kalk to keep up with your demands with evaporation. Slurry can be a bit dangerous and will impact your PH a LOT more in a negative way. Lots of folks outgrow the ability to do this, especially in low evap, high humidity climates.

CaRx for me. They replace more than the big three... there are literally more than two dozen more trace elements that come from melting natural media that were required to build the coral skeletons. It is a more complete source of additives.

I have never heard of a CaRx crashing a tank. I really don't know how it is possible. They are set up to just barely maintain and even if they quit or have crazy output, it can take many days or a week to do any damage.

bif24701
05/24/2017, 06:38 PM
Agree 100% on the Kalkwasser comments but for me still has high risk. I've got a large ATO and don't want to risk a failure and crash the tank. Also, the stirrer cost it's high and to have a fail safe/control cost more money.



I have a very simple design for adding Kalk that is as fool proof as could be.

No switches or floats.

Just a consistent dosing pump (BRS 50ml/minute) and timer (APEX controlled). That's it.

I know how long it need to run (4 min every 1/2 hour) so the same amount is added every day no matter what.

A simple design removes potential flaws and accidents.


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duncanpate1
05/24/2017, 06:49 PM
Fool proof until the pump breaks down! Agree that it's a great system but we all know there is always a fool to disproof!!!!


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DanConnor
05/24/2017, 06:54 PM
Calcium reactor guy here. And I run a kalk reactor at the same time.

Bulldog88
05/24/2017, 08:33 PM
Thanks for insight, I feel like a calcium reactor is the way to go. Even if a malfunction occurs it isn't something that could do serious damage in a short period of time. I had great success with my MRC on my last 120g. But I've read so many posts with people dosing kalk and having great results. But the fear of increasing the pH so quickly in a short period of time would be a worry. I know that controllers to help prevent this. The knowledge base in this forum is priceless.

bif24701
05/25/2017, 01:06 AM
Fool proof until the pump breaks down! Agree that it's a great system but we all know there is always a fool to disproof!!!!


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Compared to all other methods, my system has the fewest potential failure points. Only system safer would be a dripper.


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Alfrareef
05/25/2017, 02:45 AM
I have a very simple design for adding Kalk that is as fool proof as could be.

No switches or floats.

Just a consistent dosing pump (BRS 50ml/minute) and timer (APEX controlled). That's it.

I know how long it need to run (4 min every 1/2 hour) so the same amount is added every day no matter what.

A simple design removes potential flaws and accidents.


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Not safe enough.
I've read recently a post from a guy with a similar approach where the controller got stuck and consultor ashes the tank. Don't remember if it was a APEX.

bif24701
05/25/2017, 03:13 AM
Not safe enough.
I've read recently a post from a guy with a similar approach where the controller got stuck and consultor ashes the tank. Don't remember if it was a APEX.



Safer than other methods. I'm not implying that it's is 100% safe of course, I hope that goes without saying.

A pump getting stuck on could happen to any other method also, the difference here is that there are less components thus fewer points of potential failure.


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Bpb
05/25/2017, 07:00 AM
Guys nothing is 100% safe. Not even manual dosing. You could just as easily butter fingers the cup of liquid and drop it in or mess up the mixture. Kalk on a quality timer like an apex, with a decent pump is plenty safe enough. Safer than using a jebao doser that's for sure. On a long enough timeline, EVERYTHING will fail at some point.


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jda
05/25/2017, 08:02 AM
Apex is not a quality timer. Everybody has seen the posts about the outlets sticking on when failing. A light time is probably more safe than an apex.

However, an apex failure is still probably less than a tenth of a percent chance.

Kalk is dangerous and it comes with the territory and this is probably as good as it gets.

Bpb
05/25/2017, 09:12 AM
I guess I've iust read of a lot fewer apex failures than cheap doser failures. Every single wall timer I've owned also doesn't keep time at all and drifts by several hours within a couple weeks of resetting. And this is now several dozen assorted brand wall timers


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lolgranny
05/25/2017, 08:27 PM
Kalk. Single additive for both ALK/Cal, also boasts pH.

I use a doser timed via APEX to run 4 min every 1/2 hour.

Perfectly stable, available, dependable, and affordable!!

I can not understand why more don't use Kalk. I would be willing to bet that Kalk would be certainly capable of supporting >80% reefer out there. Maybe more. My 60+ SPS frags and colonies get all they need from Kalk alone.

I've had 5 gallon buckets of 2part on hand for a full year expecting to put grow Kalk but hasn't happened yet. Still I will continue to use fully saturated Kalk for my ATO with 2part when required.


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Kalk CAN support a tank with 80% sps and high demand, but when that day comes and you have a kalk overdose say RIP to everything.

Ive said RIP 2xs sadly and im on the CaRx program now. Never will i ever go back. Nothing worse then a tank which looks like milk.

bif24701
05/25/2017, 09:01 PM
Kalk CAN support a tank with 80% sps and high demand, but when that day comes and you have a kalk overdose say RIP to everything.

Ive said RIP 2xs sadly and im on the CaRx program now. Never will i ever go back. Nothing worse then a tank which looks like milk.



I'm still completely confounded how that you can assume a CalRx system is somehow safer than the system I have implemented.

With the APEX there are programmed safe guards. Also I have 300 total gallons and with a 50ml/min pump I don't think that it would ever be able to rise pH high enough to kill anything. It would have to be on continuous for days assuming APEX losses all control of the outlet relay.

I'm all for safety, efficiency, and dependability so please convince me seriously. With so many components that must work together what happens when it doesn't work?

I think it is far far more likely that a CalRx system would stop working before what you say would happen to my system and that would just as likely result in dead or ill corals.


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jda
05/25/2017, 09:22 PM
Anything can stop working. If a CaRx stops working, you have a while to catch it before much harm can be done to your tank.... and even if your alk gets too low, the sand and rock will buffer for you at minimum levels. If you dose a few minutes worth of extra kalk, your tank can crash hard and kill nearly all of the inhabitants...all that you need is a few things to die, ammonia rises, more dies, and the death spiral is in full tilt.

Besides, CaRx don't just stop working. They decrease their output as the CO2 bottle starts to get empty or the media is getting exhausted. Even if you just test for alk once a week, you can see this coming for months.

You will be really hard-pressed to find a tank crash that is actually due to CaRx failure - I know of none over the years. Kalk overdoses, either manual or mechanical/electrical, are quite common and nearly everybody who had one thought that their "system" was pretty good.

I used to drip saturated kalk 1/2 gallon at a time. I set it all up manually. The worst thing that could have ever happened is that my container tipped over and 1/2 gallon went into 300 gallons. I really liked what kalk has to offer, it is a nice balanced two part. I did not care for some of the heavy metals that built up from it, but water changes and poly took care of that. I also did not like that I still had to manage strontium, mag and other trace elements that CaRx now manages for me. Mrs Wages sure was cheap. I eventually got to where I could not evaporate enough water for kalk to keep the supply coming, so CaRx was the only way to go. This was over twenty years ago when I read about kalk dosing a TFH magazine (probably, I forget).

Here is what amazes me. Nobody would think to dose hydrochloric acid for ANY purpose, yet kalk is just as dangerous. I get that Muratic Acid has nothing to offer but hydrogen and kalk has ca and alk, but the danger is the same. I would dose again, but I would never let enough to crash a tank anywhere near it for a machine to run... I would just do it by hand again.

Curtie44
05/25/2017, 10:57 PM
I dose 74ml of sodium bicarbonate twice daily via peristaltic pump, have my calcium reactor on as fast a drip rate as can be without it becoming a steady stream AND my evap make-up water is Kalkwasser....So I use all 3 :)

bif24701
05/25/2017, 11:27 PM
I what if CaLRX pump/valve/needle valve/CO2 Doser gets stuck on/off. Or effluent line dumps into your sump, pH controller gets stuck/malfunctions lowers PH.

If Kalk fails to operate nothing happens except the pH/Buffering (ALK) droops naturally, that could take days or more.




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bif24701
05/25/2017, 11:30 PM
I dose 74ml of sodium bicarbonate twice daily via peristaltic pump, have my calcium reactor on as fast a drip rate as can be without it becoming a steady stream AND my evap make-up water is Kalkwasser....So I use all 3 :)



Yea man, in addition to whatever you chose (2 part/CalRx) why not add Kalk to your top off, I think it's kind of foolish not to given all the super benefits and nil risk of crash.


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bif24701
05/25/2017, 11:33 PM
APEX relay outlets are 99x more likely to fail in the off position than the ON.

Nothing like a CRASH would occur for at least several days. My ALK (personally), with my volume would not drops below 7 for a week.


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chgoblknazn
05/25/2017, 11:36 PM
APEX relay outlets are 99x more likely to fail in the off position than the ON.

Nothing like a CRASH would occur for at least several days. My ALK (personally), with my volume would not drops below 7 for a week.


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I agree. When the power to my tank is disconnected, the Apex shuts the CO2 off. It also stops the aqualifter supplying water to my small reactor and the pump circulating the water through my reactor.

bshow24
05/26/2017, 02:46 AM
I've heard numerous horror stories of dosers overdosing and causing a problem. Even when I was shopping for one, I was scared to buy because the last thing I want is an overdose of alk in the tank. Not once have I heard anyone say their CaRx overdosed their tank plus it's using old coral skeleton and supplying the corals with what they need. My new build I'm switching over to a carx for this reason.

Electrobes
05/26/2017, 04:10 AM
In the thirteen years of reefing, I don't believe I've once heard of a Calcium Reactor failure causing the demise of a tank, but on that same note I don't think I've heard of a programmable dosing system (Not just a peristaltic pump) causing one either. Usually when there is a failure, it shuts down instead of over dosing.

I have heard of numerous over dosing failure via float switch ATOs with All, bit that was mainly because if back in the day DIY relays for ATO pumps.

I have never used a Calcium Reactor, but I have used all other methods, including a DIY relays which worked just fine. If I had a larger tank (I have a 100G tank now, probably as big as I will go) I would probably try a calcium reactor but for now I love my Kamoer Doser on my Apex (If pH spikes, it's programmed to shut down, but otherwise it doses four times a day).

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Bpb
05/26/2017, 04:32 AM
I what if CaLRX pump/valve/needle valve/CO2 Doser gets stuck on/off. Or effluent line dumps into your sump, pH controller gets stuck/malfunctions lowers PH.




On this end they don't really work like that. My reactor is tuned to be always on. Co2 never turns off. Effluent never changes unless I want it to. Yes it was absurdly expensive to set up but the only points of failure would be something turning off or leaking. Which won't fail by putting too much into the water. That or something just really unlikely happening like co2 bottle valve failing and turning it into a rocket spontaneously, or the reactor forming a spontaneous leak. Which are so unlikely you can't really expect them or plan for them


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Piper27
05/26/2017, 06:55 AM
Even if a calcium reactor was controlled by a pH probe and it got stuck on and added too much co2 continuously, it will take a few days to crash a tank. The alk will rise slowly. Plus you will hear the excess co2 getting chopped up and blowing out of the exit line. If anyone leaves their tank for periods of time unmonitored, they should know how to run their reactor with a set bubble count and no controllers. Like stated above, nothing bad can happen.

bif24701
05/26/2017, 07:11 AM
And yet still not convinced a CalRx is any "safer/reliable" or whatever than Kalk dosed via a timer and peristaltic pump.


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fishguy597
05/26/2017, 07:28 AM
On this end they don't really work like that. My reactor is tuned to be always on. Co2 never turns off. Effluent never changes unless I want it to. Yes it was absurdly expensive to set up but the only points of failure would be something turning off or leaking. Which won't fail by putting too much into the water. That or something just really unlikely happening like co2 bottle valve failing and turning it into a rocket spontaneously, or the reactor forming a spontaneous leak. Which are so unlikely you can't really expect them or plan for them


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When I first started using my CARX I ran it this way. I went on vacation and had my brother feeding my fish. Lucky he was able to catch this the next day and shut it off. The effluent line plugged up but not completely. This caused the pH to drop and turned the water into milk. Over a 24 hour period it turned my tank water to milk too to where you couldn't see through it. I lost a few corals and took a while for others to rebound. I wouldn't run a CARX without a pH probe to control the Co2. After that I invested in an apex and never had a problem like that a:reading:gain. I have had problems with probes going bad or getting out of whack . But I have been keeping track of everything I do in a calender book so I know when I have calibrated or replaced probes.

I have never used dosing pumps but the way I see it is everything has a learning curve. For me having a 200 gallon tank I do not want to mess around with changing out jugs when ever they go empty. I have a larget enough CARX to where I only fill it once a year. The probes take 10 min to calibrate. I'm very happy with my CARX.

fishguy597
05/26/2017, 07:31 AM
And yet still not convinced a CalRx is any "safer/reliable" or whatever than Kalk dosed via a timer and peristaltic pump.


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Sounds like your mind is made up then. Give it a whirl and let us know how it goes.

bif24701
05/26/2017, 07:40 AM
I probably will get a CalRx when I reach the point Kalk can not keep up. In fact that why I got an APEX. Very surprised that Kalk has been able to keep up with the demand of my system. I'm so satisfied with how well it has done that I've become a strong advice for its use not only because it's easy, safe, and effective but mostly because Kalk simply doesn't get the credit it should IMO.

Anyone starting a reef tank ALK/Cal supplementation system program should start out with Kalk. Won't raise salinity, create an imbalance of chloride/sulfate, or ALK/Cal. Kalk can eliminate chronic low pH.


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jda
05/26/2017, 08:00 AM
You don't need an Apex for a CaRx and it will just introduce a few more points of failure. If you can count to ten while watching a second hand on a clock , you can tune a reactor by hand and it will stay steady there until you need to bump it up as the demand increases.

I always saw the buildup of chloride ions as a good thing. Then, people must change water. This is super important for 2-part or kalk dosers since they need to get mag, strontium and some other no-so-trace minerals that corals will use up quickly that are not supplied by the kalk or 2-part. The true coral grow significantly better when these other elements are introduced in balance as well, but water changes are the best other option for kalk dosers and 2-parters unless you want a few more things to test all the time and supplement by hand. Kalk dosers especially need to change water since kalk has all kinds of impurities in it that are not really a huge deal as long as water does get changed.

I will give you that kalk is easy, effective and keeps the costs in check. Other than Hydrochloric Acid, there is no more dangerous substance to have around your tank. I would not label it as totally safe without all of the disclaimers that are in this thread - it can crash a tank in a few minutes if not done well. Folks who don't know any better might read the "safe" part and really make a bad choice. Also, there should probably be a warning to wear a mask, gloves and eye protection when handling it if you are clumsy at all - I rarely did and never had any issues, but it can do permanent damage to your eyes and lungs if you breath too much of the dust.

Bpb
05/26/2017, 08:29 AM
When I first started using my CARX I ran it this way. I went on vacation and had my brother feeding my fish. Lucky he was able to catch this the next day and shut it off. The effluent line plugged up but not completely. This caused the pH to drop and turned the water into milk. Over a 24 hour period it turned my tank water to milk too to where you couldn't see through it. I lost a few corals and took a while for others to rebound. I wouldn't run a CARX without a pH probe to control the Co2. After that I invested in an apex and never had a problem like that a:reading:gain. I have had problems with probes going bad or getting out of whack . But I have been keeping track of everything I do in a calender book so I know when I have calibrated or replaced probes.



I have never used dosing pumps but the way I see it is everything has a learning curve. For me having a 200 gallon tank I do not want to mess around with changing out jugs when ever they go empty. I have a larget enough CARX to where I only fill it once a year. The probes take 10 min to calibrate. I'm very happy with my CARX.



That is the challenge of using a needle valve or ball valve to control effluent flow. A masterflex pump drastically reduces the risk of that happening so I don't worry about clogged effluent lines. I do agree that the kalkwasser on the BRS pump on a timer is a very safe way to run it and if I were using kalkwasser that's exactly what I would do. Not arguing one is safer than another. Just that with a commercial grade continuous duty peristaltic pump, and dual stage regulator, the common failure points or a calcium reactor are corrected


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Pife
05/26/2017, 08:30 AM
I probably will get a CalRx when I reach the point Kalk can not keep up. In fact that why I got an APEX. Very surprised that Kalk has been able to keep up with the demand of my system. I'm so satisfied with how well it has done that I've become a strong advice for its use not only because it's easy, safe, and effective but mostly because Kalk simply doesn't get the credit it should IMO.

Anyone starting a reef tank ALK/Cal supplementation system program should start out with Kalk. Won't raise salinity, create an imbalance of chloride/sulfate, or ALK/Cal. Kalk can eliminate chronic low pH.


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Can we see a picture of your system so we can have an idea of the demand?

fishguy597
05/26/2017, 08:34 AM
Bpd you have a valid point. I have to admit that that I I use a gravity feed to my CARX. No room in the sump for another pump.

karimwassef
05/26/2017, 09:05 AM
Kalk drip set by pH with high fresh air flow injection.

It's idiot proof and the only maintenance is regular pH probe calibration and adding kalk/cleaning the outlet.

I do keep the 3 buckets of Randy #2 in case things get out of wack and measure Alk to check.

The only time it failed is when I lost fresh air injection and that caused CO2 to drop and raised my pH so that the kalk drip almost stopped. The damage though was me trying to fix things too quickly and raising Alk artificially without fixing my air injection problem... then things died.

So the system is foolproof, but the fool's actions outside the system are not. :D

bif24701
05/26/2017, 10:21 AM
Can we see a picture of your system so we can have an idea of the demand?


Here a few quick shots, a couple top down to better show the size of some of my colonies.



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170526/ca4e4dd11795d2b2ac97d9afeac86996.jpg




https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170526/799d3556281c1416771a300a01d3141c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170526/5f53e6ac419bfdf10dadcaccb378e95d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170526/d835f7be8661abe511c1c0b9e0ab8a18.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170526/00174d873c5888512cd9cfce4ca79718.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170526/f11104651a4e0aca16f444a697c53a2f.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170526/e680642d70e2621b68b2a84a05027677.jpg



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bif24701
05/26/2017, 10:22 AM
Forgot one https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170526/f851207a3793567ad53b10e419db7c6d.jpg




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