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pacificdiver
06/09/2017, 08:06 PM
I lost a small ocellaris that I purchased online (from a reputable supplier) to presumed velvet, a few days into TTM. Unfortunately, since it looked very healthy when it arrived, it was housed with a small yellow tang, which still shows no signs of illness and is eating well.

At this point, I would like to do some sort of preventative treatment, but I'm hesitant to do Cupramine, as I've never used copper before. I also have Paraguard, but my question is, is that going to be as effective in preventing velvet (or brookynella?) from becoming a problem?

If Cupramine is more of a "guarantee," I'd be willing to try it, but it seems like Paraguard is more user-friendly, so I'm having trouble deciding between them. If there were active signs of infection, I'd be ready to start copper, but since he's appearing healthy, am I wrong in thinking that a gentler treatment might be the better option?

Thanks in advance...

JustinM
06/09/2017, 10:22 PM
I have never used paraguard but from my understanding it is effective on all ectoparasites. It can be used as a dip or in a hospital tank.

Cupramine is also effective for ectoparasites.

Paraguard is aldehyde based vs ionic copper for cupramine. I personally feel more comfortable with cupramine but may try out paraguard on some new fish eventually. Hope this helps

somebloke
06/10/2017, 12:43 AM
I lost a small ocellaris that I purchased online (from a reputable supplier) to presumed velvet, a few days into TTM. Unfortunately, since it looked very healthy when it arrived, it was housed with a small yellow tang, which still shows no signs of illness and is eating well.

At this point, I would like to do some sort of preventative treatment, but I'm hesitant to do Cupramine, as I've never used copper before. I also have Paraguard, but my question is, is that going to be as effective in preventing velvet (or brookynella?) from becoming a problem?

If Cupramine is more of a "guarantee," I'd be willing to try it, but it seems like Paraguard is more user-friendly, so I'm having trouble deciding between them. If there were active signs of infection, I'd be ready to start copper, but since he's appearing healthy, am I wrong in thinking that a gentler treatment might be the better option?

Thanks in advance...
In regard to Brooklynella, just this past week I had a jawfish die in about 12 hours from showing symptoms. My Tang and 6 Anthias were just starting to show symptoms when I moved them to a hospital tank and began Cupramine treatment (9pm). The Tang was tremendously worse the next morning (6:30am) and died about 10 minutes after lights on. The following morning 4/6 Anthias were dead. The two that remained were just showing symptoms. This all unfolded before Cupramine had even reached a therapeutic level.

Frustrated, I called seachem and, without mentioning the Tang and Anthias deaths in the hospital tank, asked about Brook and Cupramine. Their advice was to avoid Cupramine because it would likely weaken the fish after the first dose and indirectly accelerate the typically rapid progression of Brook, with fish dying before even reaching a therapeutic level of Cupramine (that takes around 48 hours). They recommended Paraguard as the preferred treatment for Brook, as you can administer a therapeutic dose immediately and with less stress on the fish. I told them what had happened already and they pretty much said "yup."

So I immediately pulled the copper out with Cuprasorb (gave it about 2 hours) and added Paraguard per instructions.

The Anthias are alive 2 days later in evening (about 4 hours ago) with minimal and improved symptoms. Their normally voracious appetite hasn't recovered but they are otherwise doing well.

Obviously this is anecdotal and you don't even know that you are dealing with Brook, but I thought it might be worth recounting.

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JustinM
06/10/2017, 07:48 AM
Not only is it recommended for ectoparasites but it is also a wide spectrum antibiotic. I think it is definitely worth trying out in the future.

My experience with velvet though is the fish first need a freshwater dip followed by a rally bath or formalin bath then thrown into cp, copper or possibly paraguard. The problem with copper is you have to ramp up the dose which when dealing with velvet can be deadly because it kills so fast. If you can go right to a therapeutic dosage with paraguard it would definitely be worth a try.

pacificdiver
06/10/2017, 06:03 PM
thanks for all the replies. I'm going to try Paraguard at the recommended dose, since the tang is showing no signs of stress or disease. Does anyone know of a reputable source for CP? I tried the stuff on eBay, and I have my doubts about its effectiveness. Is there any way to get it, short of calling a vet?

somebloke
06/10/2017, 06:25 PM
thanks for all the replies. I'm going to try Paraguard at the recommended dose, since the tang is showing no signs of stress or disease. Does anyone know of a reputable source for CP? I tried the stuff on eBay, and I have my doubts about its effectiveness. Is there any way to get it, short of calling a vet?
I haven't used this but someone had recommended it to me at one point: it looks like it's CP (last product image) but I'm not a chemist.

New Life Spectrum Powder Ick-Shield Bath Food, Medium https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MNQWACU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_49hpzbABYP98V

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pacificdiver
06/11/2017, 05:47 PM
I haven't used this but someone had recommended it to me at one point: it looks like it's CP (last product image) but I'm not a chemist.

New Life Spectrum Powder Ick-Shield Bath Food, Medium https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MNQWACU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_49hpzbABYP98V

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It looks like a step up from the CP I purchased on eBay, which was definitely "home-made," and could have been talc powder, for all I know. For now, I'm sticking with Paraguard. Can't thank everyone enough for the input!:beer:

Mishri
06/12/2017, 01:03 PM
paraguard is "a blend of aldehydes, malachite green and fish protective polymers"

It's basically a special formalin blend.. (formalin is formaldehyde mixture, and would be similar to any other aldehyde, formaldehyde is just the simplest)

http://agrilife.org/fisheries/files/2013/09/SRAC-Publication-No.-4705-Amyloodinium-ocellatum-an-Important-Parasite-of-Cultured-Marine-Fish.pdf


according to that article. 25mg/l was therapeutic dose for velvet, but the fish would become reinfected once treatment stopped.

The treatment recommendation using paraguard is for some reason in ml/l so we'd have to know more density/concentration to convert that into what it would be in mg/l.

I don't like medications that don't disclose all of the active ingredients and what % it is... and usually formalin is done at much higher concentrations in a short bath before being returned to the aquarium.. but again, the tank would need to be free of the parasite...


I like CP, if you get new life spectrum ich shield powder.. make sure it's the powder and not the food. at least you know what you are getting there. and you can dose it more precisely if you use a scale instead of the included scoop... (although you have to go about 4x over recommended dosage to cause harm in the studies i've seen)

also 3-6 days is the fastest lifecycle it can have... and if you are treating with paraguard now, it might be inhibiting it... but who knows if it's eradicated?