PDA

View Full Version : Could a compromised magnet be poisoning my sps?


deputydog95
06/17/2017, 12:21 PM
I've been struggling with base up STN for a while now. It's essentially rotating around the tank.

I tried fragging the colonies but it usually just starts up again shortly thereafter.

Tank is over a year old and is very stable.

Noticed this cheap lettuce magnet today had completely split apart and was totally rusted out.

Thoughts? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170617/e20d994141143655230c4c6f2700e48c.jpg

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Pife
06/17/2017, 12:22 PM
Yes.

anthonys51
06/17/2017, 12:26 PM
Do you run carbon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

deputydog95
06/17/2017, 12:34 PM
No, no cerbon as of yet. Why?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

lynchmob3000
06/17/2017, 01:47 PM
Carbon will help remove the nasty from the water.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

deputydog95
06/17/2017, 02:06 PM
Will hit the LFS tomorrow. Made up a batch of salt this afternoon which will be ready for a small water change in the morning.

Googling around and found this. Same magnet, same problems as I'm having...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2434127

reefwiser
06/17/2017, 03:32 PM
Yes. I alway check mine as I work on my tank. If they even look funny I throw them a way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Pife
06/17/2017, 04:43 PM
Do you run carbon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As far as I know carbon had little effect on heavy metals.

I'd run a poly pad and do several big water changes.

jda
06/17/2017, 06:14 PM
It is not likely. While long term exposure to heavy metals is no good, aragonite will bind a lot of them and skimmer will get a lot too.

Some Polyfilter will get it out and change colors if you have a problem.

Although that nasty thing needs to get out of there, I would look elsewhere for your problems. If you have some photos or some more info, we might be able to help... parameters, colonies or frags, etc.

deputydog95
06/18/2017, 09:59 AM
Tank is over a year old. Very stable. Routine water changes. Tons of flow with two MP10's and a Gyre.

This is the only explanation that I've come up with....

deputydog95
06/18/2017, 10:00 AM
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1881352

deputydog95
06/18/2017, 10:01 AM
Here's another thread with the same magnet going bad and SPS loss.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2434127

chaudhry
06/20/2017, 07:39 AM
Interesting!
We run GFO in our tanks all the time, which is essentially rust. So why a rusty magnet be a problem. Not sure.
Can anybody shed some light.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

anthonys51
06/20/2017, 07:44 AM
Here's another thread with the same magnet going bad and SPS loss.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2434127



I am not sure if it was the magnet either. Sps are very hard any little change can wipe out a tank In days. If it was the rust. Why wouldn't it have happened why before the magnet totally looked like crap


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jda
06/20/2017, 08:23 AM
It isn't the magnet unless it is rare earth. There is very unlikely to be a rare earth magnet in a $8 veggie clip. There can be some other impurities, I guess, but it is VERY unlikely that they were what did the damage.

Chemicals on hands, magnets, toxins in the air from cleaning lady... all are tank crash red herrings.

jda
06/20/2017, 08:30 AM
Post a few quick photos and some water parameters and see if anybody can help.

If you have colonies, then they are going to start to die from the bottom up with three kessil lights - they cannot cover well enough to keep SPS colonies healthy after a while. If the N and P are higher, then this can be an issue too. If you still have frags, then it is VERY easy to look for pests - nobody who ever has had pests originally thought that they did, so please look well.

anthonys51
06/20/2017, 08:50 AM
Post a few quick photos and some water parameters and see if anybody can help.

If you have colonies, then they are going to start to die from the bottom up with three kessil lights - they cannot cover well enough to keep SPS colonies healthy after a while. If the N and P are higher, then this can be an issue too. If you still have frags, then it is VERY easy to look for pests - nobody who ever has had pests originally thought that they did, so please look well.



Agreed With sps tanks you should be testing once a week. Are you. Typically with sps once they start dying from the bottom up even if you frag them , they still might die.
Pictures would help

When asking for help it's best to post as much info and pictures because without all this info we are just guessing. Also it helps to give test dates and results. Give a month of results would be best


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

deputydog95
06/20/2017, 09:28 AM
In my research I'm finding that these cheap magnets are often coated in nickel and copper is used as part of the adhesion process.

So as the magnet is compromised due to the cheapo coating... It rusts and these materials get in the tank. That's what I've read anyway. So it's not simply rust at this point. There are toxic metals associated with the production of these magnets.

deputydog95
06/20/2017, 09:30 AM
I am not sure if it was the magnet either. Sps are very hard any little change can wipe out a tank In days. If it was the rust. Why wouldn't it have happened why before the magnet totally looked like crap


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The magnet appears to be have been corroding for months. I just finally noticed it when the cover plumped from the rust build up.

anthonys51
06/20/2017, 09:32 AM
The magnet appears to be have been corroding for months. I just finally noticed it when the cover plumped from the rust build up.



My point. It was there for months. And then after 60 days it caused your stuff to die. Also not to sound mean but if you didn't notice a very rusty magnet maybe your maintenance schedule is something to be deserted


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

deputydog95
06/20/2017, 09:35 AM
Post a few quick photos and some water parameters and see if anybody can help.

If you have colonies, then they are going to start to die from the bottom up with three kessil lights - they cannot cover well enough to keep SPS colonies healthy after a while. If the N and P are higher, then this can be an issue too. If you still have frags, then it is VERY easy to look for pests - nobody who ever has had pests originally thought that they did, so please look well.

3 wide angle kessils on a 4 foot tank is fairly broad coverage. I've only seen shading on the SPS furthest to the front and it's the same spot on all of them. Essentially the corals grow great except for that 5 degrees on the base.

Looked for pests... Haven't seen anything and I'm pretty careful about dipping when introducing new corals.

Params are pretty typical.
8KH
430 Ca
1400mg
P and Nitrate, very low
Temp 78.5
Salinity 1.025

Although I'm bringing the Alk up to 9 to see how that works out. I've also switched from ME A&B to Seachem as the Seachem has trace elements where the ME does not....

Since removing the magnet, the ORP has gone up a bit and my clam is opened wider than I've ever seen it. Could be a coincidence.... Who knows.

deputydog95
06/20/2017, 09:41 AM
My point. It was there for months. And then after 60 days it caused your stuff to die. Also not to sound mean but if you didn't notice a very rusty magnet maybe your maintenance schedule is something to be deserted


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've been having base up STN for months and months now. With no explanation.

Maintenance is en point. My LFS comes out once a month and I manage it in between. Routine water changes with RODI water and Fritz salt, all being monitored with an Apex. Weekly testing for main parameters and I have a healthy refugium going in the sump.

In this case the front and back covers were still stuck to the magnet for most of this so it wasn't possible to tell it was compromised till the rust go so tall it plumped the cover right off. As I mentioned initially, I had the magnet in the tank but never used it and should have pulled it out since it wasn't ever in use. Had I not left it in the tank, it wouldn't have rusted. Had I been using/handling it, I would probably have noticed. But essentially left it stuck to the side panel of glass unused and cleaned around it.

anthonys51
06/20/2017, 09:42 AM
3 wide angle kessils on a 4 foot tank is fairly broad coverage. I've only seen shading on the SPS furthest to the front and it's the same spot on all of them. Essentially the corals grow great except for that 5 degrees on the base.



Looked for pests... Haven't seen anything and I'm pretty careful about dipping when introducing new corals.



Params are pretty typical.

8KH

430 Ca

1400mg

P and Nitrate, very low

Temp 78.5

Salinity 1.025



Although I'm bringing the Alk up to 9 to see how that works out. I've also switched from ME A&B to Seachem as the Seachem has trace elements where the ME does not....



Since removing the magnet, the ORP has gone up a bit and my clam is opened wider than I've ever seen it. Could be a coincidence.... Who knows.



Think he is a t5 guy The sps t5 people don't think you can get even spread with led. No matter what light you have. And they are correct to a point. Led tend to focus there par in a spotlight like beam. So he is basically saying you need 6 kessil to get the coverage of one 48 inch ati t5 fixture.
As far as your numbers they look good but that doesn't really give us the whole picture.
If your alk was 7 last week 8 this week 7 next week and 8 today that's bad but still 8 today If on the other hand it was 7.8 , 8.1 , 7.9 then 8. It's good. You see how both end up at 8.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

anthonys51
06/20/2017, 09:48 AM
Well looks like you have your answer. You believe it's the magnet. Some of us don't. Hopefully it is and your tank takes off.

Also you never sent a picture of your tank

Also how many gallons of water do you change a week

Ps apex doesn't do crap when test for water parameters. Ph , orp, salinity are the only things they test for. It's cool to watch but not a game changer to know. I haven't tested ph in 6 years, could care less about orp, and salinity is stable with my ato


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

deputydog95
06/20/2017, 11:14 AM
Typically 10 gallon water changes every week, to two weeks at the most.

Alk only varies by a few tenths from test to test. Using the Hannah which is nice as I get an actual number that is repeatable.

Just got to the office so this was the first opportunity for a pic.

Bear in mind I ran a jamming sps tank for over 3 years before moving in to this tank. And another sps tank before that one for 3 years. I don't know everything by any means but I'm not a complete rookie either.

Fwiw, I like the apex. ORP can be helpful if something goes sideways and the water gets polluted from a fish die off etc...

It holds the heater temp much tighter then the controller in my heater.

Leak alarms and email notifications for any parameters or a power outage is nice too. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170620/2f84ce4101083e9186fc45edf8dd133f.jpg

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

NaturalReef
06/20/2017, 11:33 AM
Well, I also couldn't figure out why my sps were stn'n from the base up for 2-3 months. My parameters were consistent and alk was around 8-8.5. Checked my frag rack after reading this thread and the magnet holding it was bulging and split open with rust pouring out of it. I agree that maybe rust isn't the issue, but maybe other chemicals used to make the magnet. Hopefully my huge beautiful collection will start the healing process.

deputydog95
06/20/2017, 11:47 AM
Well, I also couldn't figure out why my sps were stn'n from the base up for 2-3 months. My parameters were consistent and alk was around 8-8.5. Checked my frag rack after reading this thread and the magnet holding it was bulging and split open with rust pouring out of it. I agree that maybe rust isn't the issue, but maybe other chemicals used to make the magnet. Hopefully my huge beautiful collection will start the healing process.

I think I mentioned this above, but I've seen other threads that have mentioned that these magnets are covered in nickel and copper is used as part of the adhesion process to bond the nickel the magnet.

No beuno if that's the case.... As the magnet is rustic, it would be logical to assume it's leaching these heavy toxic metals in the tank.

I don't have another explanation in my case....

Time will tell with the magnet out. If it stops and things start healing, then it would safe to assume that it was the magnet. I will say I've noticed tremendous polyp extension today. More than I've seen in a long time. Everything looks quite fuzzy.

anthonys51
06/20/2017, 11:53 AM
Typically 10 gallon water changes every week, to two weeks at the most.

Alk only varies by a few tenths from test to test. Using the Hannah which is nice as I get an actual number that is repeatable.

Just got to the office so this was the first opportunity for a pic.

Bear in mind I ran a jamming sps tank for over 3 years before moving in to this tank. And another sps tank before that one for 3 years. I don't know everything by any means but I'm not a complete rookie either.

Fwiw, I like the apex. ORP can be helpful if something goes sideways and the water gets polluted from a fish die off etc...

It holds the heater temp much tighter then the controller in my heater.

Leak alarms and email notifications for any parameters or a power outage is nice too. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170620/2f84ce4101083e9186fc45edf8dd133f.jpg

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk



Maybe someone took a big dump and the gas poisoned the tank.
Is close to men's room.
Just saying lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

deputydog95
06/20/2017, 11:56 AM
Maybe someone took a big dump and the gas poisoned the tank.
Is close to men's room.
Just saying lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Anything is possible! Lol.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

deputydog95
06/20/2017, 11:56 AM
Pretty sure we'd have a few human fatalities too if the dump was that bad though :-)

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

jda
06/20/2017, 12:00 PM
Again, if you suspect copper or nickel, all will bind to aragonite or get skimmed out fairly quickly. Copper is ineffective in a tank with aragonite. Yes, the magnet needs to go. Yes, you can run some polyfilter for a few days if it makes you feel better. There is about a 1% chance that something will change because of this - 99% chance that it is something else.

None of those acros are large enough to worry about the bottom-up dying from point-source LED shading... so forget that I mentioned that as a possibility without knowing anything else.

What does "very low" mean for nitrate and phosphate? Do you have a hannah ultra-low checker for either?

anthonys51
06/20/2017, 12:03 PM
Pretty sure we'd have a few human fatalities too if the dump was that bad though :-)

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk



Can I ask why you put the mp40 in the back.
I read on there website if you have 2 to put on the side first. Did you try that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

deputydog95
06/20/2017, 12:11 PM
Can I ask why you put the mp40 in the back.
I read on there website if you have 2 to put on the side first. Did you try that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sure.

They're actually Mp10's. Two on the back panel. On left and one right.

I run a gyre on the side panel so there's ton of flow between the 3 circulation devices and the return.


Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

anthonys51
06/20/2017, 12:13 PM
Also how old is the tank seems you have a diatom problem




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

anthonys51
06/20/2017, 12:14 PM
Sure.

They're actually Mp10's. Two on the back panel. On left and one right.

I run a gyre on the side panel so there's ton of flow between the 3 circulation devices and the return.


Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk



Yes I didn't see gyro. Yes that's enough flow sorry I missed it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

anthonys51
06/20/2017, 12:19 PM
With test kits I bought 2 for every important test

Each person has a different set of skills , eye sight and lighting.

What I did was test with both and see witch one worked for me

I did Red Sea alk , Hanna checker.
Found both where accurate but digital was easier for me
Phosphates I did salifert and Milwaukee. Found I couldn't tell the difference in color with salifert and my phosphates where actually 2.06 and was only reading .50. Milwaukee was better plus digital
With nitrates I used salifert and Red Sea. Both where very close in reading just find the color was easier to read on the Red Sea


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

deputydog95
06/28/2017, 04:54 PM
Also how old is the tank seems you have a diatom problem




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The tank is about 15 months old.

And yes, the diatoms persist. I vacuum the top half of the gravel each time, which clears it up for a couple days, and then it comes back with a vengance.

Not sure sure what the deal is there....

Phosphates are reading almost non-detectable.

deputydog95
06/28/2017, 04:57 PM
Again, if you suspect copper or nickel, all will bind to aragonite or get skimmed out fairly quickly. Copper is ineffective in a tank with aragonite. Yes, the magnet needs to go. Yes, you can run some polyfilter for a few days if it makes you feel better. There is about a 1% chance that something will change because of this - 99% chance that it is something else.

None of those acros are large enough to worry about the bottom-up dying from point-source LED shading... so forget that I mentioned that as a possibility without knowing anything else.

What does "very low" mean for nitrate and phosphate? Do you have a hannah ultra-low checker for either?

Have been running the PolyFilter for about a week or two now. Is turning tan, so no indication of heavy metals. Just organics.

I have the red sea kits and they reads almost non detectable. I'm running a solid skimmmer and have a healthy fuge with chaeto in the sump.

deputydog95
06/28/2017, 04:59 PM
So far things aren't looking any better. I've tried cutting back some of the pieces that were STN'ing from the base up and re gluing them. They've continued to die off so I'm not cutting anymore.

I guess at this point I've got to just let it go and see what happens. This is very frustrating....

deputydog95
06/28/2017, 05:01 PM
Here's some pics (phone) as an example of what I'm seeing.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170628/0a65116871f05f857aaf78e44f4a38eb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170628/bb5856230dcad94b3f4d085003e1f6fa.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170628/e32090a7a58d742208c2e60319f810a5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170628/7856a403dc65dfa85bb782225981d3e4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170628/50db534a286c35eab85605c4851134ce.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170628/9c00981d63afc6e5c91f22489fbc7390.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170628/7c9f882a477212de644c4d5d2d7bc695.jpg

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

swk
06/28/2017, 09:21 PM
I had mp40 magnets cause major problems. Get a triton test done to help rule out other things.

tazzy695
06/28/2017, 10:15 PM
With corals so close to each other like in last pic looks like sps verry close to brain
brain wins battle and sps dies watch tank verry closely at night

deputydog95
06/29/2017, 11:10 AM
I had mp40 magnets cause major problems. Get a triton test done to help rule out other things.

That is a great idea!

deputydog95
06/29/2017, 11:12 AM
With corals so close to each other like in last pic looks like sps verry close to brain
brain wins battle and sps dies watch tank verry closely at night

If it was just that piece, I would totally agree with you. Unfortunately it's happening all over the tank.... The chalice rarely extends it feelers as well.

That chalice was actually dying when we transferred into this tank. Looked like hell for months. And then it took off. Has probably grown 3 or 4 inches all the way around in the past 6 months or so.

lynchmob3000
06/29/2017, 12:33 PM
I'd say do a super large waterchange and then make sure you have po4 in the system. If you are that close to undetectable with a good skimmer and a fuge then you might be out competing your corals for nutrition. Your corals look colorful brown. I've seen stn like this from pests, too low nutrient and too high nutrient. Usually too high and they rtn more often. As far as kessils are concerned, are the coral colonies you have now grown from the kessils?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NeverlosT
06/29/2017, 12:40 PM
I didnt read every response, but the short answers are:

1. Yes, a corroding magnet can poison your tank
(looks like another fine Two Little Fishies product killing coral, their magnet rusting issues are well known).

2. The difference between a magnet corroding/breaking down and GFO is that one is pure ferric oxide (GFO), but a magnet can contain all manner of metals that can be harmful to the tank, so when a magnet starts to corrode and break down, it can expose the tank to those metals.

I have spoken with Julian Sprung about the magnets and he maintains that it is not an issue, but they can not guarantee that their cheap magnets do not contain other metals, and as long as they refuse to pot the magnets in epoxy, they will corrode and be a risk to the tank.

The simple solution is to not leave your lettuce clip or nano-mag magnet in the tank all the time.

To recover, I'd run GFO, cuprisorb, and carbon, and do some water changes. Then be patient.

Oh and DONT run a ton of GFO or carbon all at once, it will drop your alkalinity and be a shock to your system inhabitants. This problem took a long time to get bad, and unfortunately it will take a long time to get better. patience.

acesq
06/29/2017, 03:09 PM
I would strongly suspect the magnet. I had the same thing happen. An Avast Marine probe holder rusted, wiping out 80% all of my SPS over a period of two months or so. It appears that the coating used on the magnets or the magnets themselves contain tungsten which dissolves in the water and is very toxic to SPS. There is an article in Coral Magazine about tungsten being used in cheap Stainless Steel (thinking it came from my pump impellers, I changed them all out but the problem persisted until I found the rusted magnet). A triton test confirmed that I had high amount of tungsten in the water. Neither carbon or poly filters helped bring the level down. Ultimately, it took 10 or more 20% water changes over a couple of months to bring down the level such that the remaining SPS stated to look happy again.

I would start with a triton test and see if you have high tungsten or another heavy metal. If so, you should do as many water changes as necessary to bring the levels down the NSW.

deputydog95
06/29/2017, 04:01 PM
I ordered a triton test today. Curious to see the results.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

NaturalReef
06/29/2017, 09:17 PM
It's been a week and I'm already seeing great improvements. Excellent polyp extension,color returning and all stn has stopped. I have been adding microbacter as well as Prodibio to replenish the bacteria. All I did differently was remove the rusty frag rack, 5 gallon water change and added Chemipure. Oh the lessons we learn are costly in this hobby.