PDA

View Full Version : Questions on the Effects of Additives on Tank Life


davehead86
06/23/2017, 08:48 PM
So I bought some SPS corals on this site, they arrive and look great. Through a comedy of errors on my part i burn the corals and have been working at getting their colors back and growth started. I started using KENT MARINE Essential Elements to help bring in additional trace elements that might help to bring back those colors. And it was successful for sure, obvious color-up happening.

However (and here's my question), I have had three cleaner shrimp die off during this time. They generally live well in the tank for a week and then die off a day or two after I dose the additives into the tank. I dose this stuff right into the main tank above the corals, 10 ml a week per directions. My LFS (and I) are thinking that the addition of these additives are linked to the death of these shrimps this month. We noticed there is copper in the bottle (Copper EDTA) at an unspecified amount. Im curious if this additive could have caused the death because of the copper in the bottle? Would adding it to the sump instead of the display help solve this problem? I really love having shrimp in the tank and so does the wife. It would be a shame if this was keeping them out of my tank.


65 Gallon Display
40 Gallon Breeder Sump
2 Radion XR30w
2 MP10w
Ice Cap Skimmer
Running GFO and Carbon in a Reactor
Cheato in the sump
2 Clownfish
2 Firefish
YW Goby
Tiger Goby
2 starfish
dozen or so snails
sea cucumber in sump
RBT Anemone

Parameters
Calcium 370 (trying to raise to 420 slowly)
Alk 8.9
Mag 1200
Salinity 1.024
Temp 79.3
No nitrates, nitrites, phosphates, ammonia


Kent Marine Essential Elements dosed 10 ml once a week
Kent Marine Iodine dosed 5 ml once a week (iodine tests at .6 which LFS is perfect)
Frozen Mysis Cube as food three times a week
Oyster Soup for coral food three times a week

davehead86
06/23/2017, 08:49 PM
And would something like Aquavitro Fuel cause any of the same issues. I would like to start using that so I dont have to dose Iodine separately and it also lists amounts of the things that are being added.

Ron Reefman
06/24/2017, 04:35 AM
If you do regular water changes, you don't need to dose any of that crap. And just how much do you dose? You think the guy who wrote those instructions on the box or bottle has a clue what your trace elements levels are before you dose... heck, do you have a clue what they are? No? Then why are you adding it?

Don't dose what you can't test for.

I'd bet you those 'burnt' corals would have come back fine without the extra 'stuff' you added and you wouldn't have killed the shrimp.

davehead86
06/24/2017, 08:04 AM
If you do regular water changes, you don't need to dose any of that crap. And just how much do you dose? You think the guy who wrote those instructions on the box or bottle has a clue what your trace elements levels are before you dose... heck, do you have a clue what they are? No? Then why are you adding it?

Don't dose what you can't test for.

I'd bet you those 'burnt' corals would have come back fine without the extra 'stuff' you added and you wouldn't have killed the shrimp.


Well of course I dont know the elements levels because they dont have tests for most of those elements. However, I will say that my corals sat looking like crap for weeks before I tried this as a last ditch effort. And the color started coming back strong and growth started coming back too. I know that you are always an advocate for not having extra things and chemicals in the tank, I understand that and appreciate that, but I cant argue with the results I have seen.

The question still remains, could the Copper EDTA in the bottle have killed me shrimp because I added it directly to the main tank? Would adding it to the sump prevent that problem?

outssider
06/24/2017, 06:28 PM
I don't see what difference it would make to add it to the sump, the water in the sump will be in the display in a minute or two.

that iodine dose seems very high...and your adding it all at once. I dose 1 drop a day of brightwell's "iodion" and that keeps my iodine at .06 (75 gallon tank) according to red sea's kit.

jubei2006
06/24/2017, 10:23 PM
Copper is well known for killing inverts. I wouldn't dose with it on purpose in a supplement for that reason alone. I would run filter floss for removal, stop using that product and see if shrimp survive.

davehead86
06/24/2017, 10:32 PM
I don't see what difference it would make to add it to the sump, the water in the sump will be in the display in a minute or two.

that iodine dose seems very high...and your adding it all at once. I dose 1 drop a day of brightwell's "iodion" and that keeps my iodine at .06 (75 gallon tank) according to red sea's kit.

Yeah it says its best to do 8 drops a day but I just cant commit to that scrutiny so i did the weekly dose. But my test does read at .06 for iodine. So its not over dosing for the tank.


Copper is well known for killing inverts. I wouldn't dose with it on purpose in a supplement for that reason alone. I would run filter floss for removal, stop using that product and see if shrimp survive.

Yeah Im planning on doing that here and finding an alternative. At least a better salt mix to help.

jayball
06/26/2017, 09:17 PM
If you are going to continue with the trace bottle than you should dose more frequently and reduce the dose accordingly. I agree with Ron, just do a weekly water change and you will be better off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tmz
06/27/2017, 12:19 PM
I doubt those additions are killing your shrimp. Of course , impurities in the product could be an issue. Some copper in it may be Cu the toxic form. I'm also skeptical they are helping the corals much.
Generally, IME, frequent small water changes take care of trace and minor elements well enough.
By cleaner shrimp, I assume you mean lystmata amboinensis(aka skunk ). They often don't live more than a year or two in an aquarium,btw; their noted life expectancy is about 3years but I haven't heard of any making it that far.

Randy27
07/03/2017, 04:02 AM
When I first began reefing, I killed several shrimp and crabs with those stupid supplements. I watched one pistol shrimp bury himself into the sand to try and elude the obvious burn it was causing him. He survived btw :) But yeah, toss all supplements. They're gimmicks. Do water changes and you're good to go.

taricha
07/03/2017, 09:48 AM
I've dosed more than that as experiments in my smaller system on a few occasions.
One question before we eliminate the supplements as a cause. What's your chaeto growth like with your zero N & P?
I keep my N & P up, and my chaeto is always rocking, so I never worry about trace elements accumulating. If your chaeto is stalled, then you can't be sure.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

ReefCowboy
07/03/2017, 11:33 AM
If you do regular water changes, you don't need to dose any of that crap. And just how much do you dose? You think the guy who wrote those instructions on the box or bottle has a clue what your trace elements levels are before you dose... heck, do you have a clue what they are? No? Then why are you adding it?

Don't dose what you can't test for.

I'd bet you those 'burnt' corals would have come back fine without the extra 'stuff' you added and you wouldn't have killed the shrimp.

Agreed. Dosing trace never ends well. I read over and over Triton users with the most up to date testing performed in their tanks scratching their heads why things are often out of whack.

tmz
07/03/2017, 11:52 AM
The titron tests do seem to be less than reliaible for trace element levels and set points.

bertoni
07/03/2017, 03:10 PM
I think you mean 0.06 ppm for iodine? 0.6 ppm is 10 times natural seawater levels:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm

Copper, even chelated, will kill shrimp if enough is added, but additives should be low enough in copper to be safe. You might have gotten a bad batch of one supplement or the other, or the timing might be coincidental. I suspect that the supplements are safe, and that the timing is coincidental.

The issue might be acclimation. I was fairly careful with my acclimation of my shrimp. I measured the SG in the tank and the bag containing the shrimp, and changed the SG about 0.0005 units every 15 minutes or so.