Lights... hit me...

[Gweeds]

Right... in a few months I'll be buying new lights (I have a wedding to pay for first lol) for my 320g... question is what do I go For?

For reference, this will cost me more than my entire set up so far, so I wanna buy the right thing and something that will last. It HAS to be led for the energy savings over time and has to be fully controllable with sunrise / sunset etc.

Maximum budget is £2,500 (about $3200). They need to cover 8'3 x 26" and 26" depth and be good enough for SPS long term. I won't be upgrading again for a LONG while (10 yrs maybe)...

EVERYTHING for my set up has been bought second hand, but as I need these to last I am buying new... this is a big purchase for me, hence the researching already.

First thought was 4 hydra 52HDs but would love to hear suggestions and your reasons...

Ta muchly.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[LQT]

I would say go for 7 Kessil A360s. 4 across the back of the tank and 3 across the front. At $400 a piece you're at $2800, leaving you with $400 for the spectral controller link cables and mounting options. You will be able to angle the lights to virtually eliminate any shadowing issues. Slief ran these over his tank for years with very impressive results. My recommendation is based on having the ability to arrange and angle multiple points of light (each pendant) thereby eliminating shadows for SPS.

Also, LEDs are optimistically rated at 50,000 hours, realistically more like 30,000. Expecting 10 years out of your LED fixtures may be a stretch.

[Ron Reefman]

Gweeds, you don't need to spend $3200 in order to get quality fixtures... unless you really want to!

Are the fixtures going inside a canopy or will the be out in the open over the tank?

How would you like to mount them? Hanging from brackets (or the ceiling), on goose-necks mounted to the back of the cabinet (or tank) or on legs that stand on the tank?

Take a look at Reef Breeders AquaSanrise R120 or Photon V2 48.
Both are 48" long so you'll only need two. The R120's would cost you only $1400. They have all the features you asked for and then some, like leds that are easy to replace with a screwdriver! The V2's would cost only $1170. They both use Cree and other quality leds, They both use aluminum cases, they have multiple channels (6) of color control, they do 24 hour sunrise/sunset control, they have thermally controlled fans (I run my 50" version of the V2 at about 75% and it runs so cool the fan doesn't even come on) and they are both very sleek and modern looking.

A new one to look at is the ReeFi-Lab pendant.
This is a new outfit and I just bought one to try it out. I'm very impressed with it. It uses 50 Cree leds, and has way more blue than white in the 5 channel color control. It uses a glass lens to adjust light spread from 2'x2' up to 3'x3', even the fan is controllable/adjustable with the software! They are $300 each (+$75 for each mount & goose neck) and I think 3 would be enough, but 4 would be enough to insure you could grow anything! So 4 with mounting hardware would only be $1500.

Will they last 10 years... being completely honest, I doubt it very much. But then I'd say the same thing about the very top of the line, most expensive brands like Eco Tech and Pacific Sun. And before 10 years go by, there will be great improvements in lighting, just like there has been over the last 10 years. Heck 10 years ago virtually nobody was using leds over an aquarium! Now 75% of the new fixtures sold are leds.

[tastyfish]

Hey again buddy.

Check out the kessils as above, and also if you want to have a look at the LEDZeals, then I first found them on RC and there are a number of happy users here.


Check out this thread for details and pics. You can have customised layouts and spectrums with them.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=25124495&postcount=1503

[ca1ore]

I suppose it depends a bit on how important a full sunrise/sunset is for you. The only lights I have personally used that get close are the ETM Radions, but it's a lot to spend for just that.

[jda]

Post this in the SPS forum and ask for folks who actually light large SPS tanks with LEDs. You are on a different planet than the folks who you might get responses from here that are lighting a cube, 75G or even a 150G... which while getting big is not quite the same as what you have with over 2 feet of breath and depth which is a different problem to solve than 18 or twenty inches. Then ask what kind of SPS and filter out the monti, birdsnest and stylophora folks, unless this is what you are wanting to keep - these are weeds to most Acropora keepers that have super easy requirements.

The nuance in the kind of SPS will be REALLY important, so don't overlook this. The nuance with the coverage and shadows from just a few panels will be just as big if you want to have a nice SPS tank. This is why you need to ask folks solving the same problem as you. The nuance in the climate where you live is huge too since some will get hot, some will not, but heat is a blessing to some folks (I have no idea where you are from, sorry).

There is a guy on there now that has a nice video of his large tank under LED. Hold onto your shorts when you find out how many panels he uses. This is a top 20% tank, IMO, but he does it right. It is not just him, but the ones who do it pretty well will be something like 10-12, or more, Radion Pros (or the equivalent) to cover that kind of area if they are into acropora at a high level and not the easier SPS.

In the end, you might find out that what you have is not all that expensive. Reflectors are still the cheapest way to light large tanks with high light demand corals.

I have some lights that are 10+ years old, but they have needed parts - a starter, socket, end cap or ignitor here or there. I would not count on this with anything that you buy.

I have a big tank like you (almost) - 8x28x24 and I cannot afford to light it with LED either upfront or ongoing. I will leave out that I think that they are an inferior light source for SPS. However, if I did, the Radions provide the best color, but shadow like crazy, so I would need three or four units to replace each MH that I have - 12-16 total. The wide panel units like ReefBreeders, AcroOptics make for better coverage, but still not enough, but the color blend is not as good - I would need twice as many of these as what they recommend. By the time that I added all of these panels, there would be no power savings of any kind. I know that this does not help you very much, but you are seriously looking at a hard problem to solve which you will find out when you get more input from large-tank folks.

I would strongly consider this advice, which I think is well founded for a guy with a large tank and offers a balanced review. He got his panels for free, which is significant. His observations that A. Millepora don't do as well is spot on - this is a coral that high end Acropora folks love. Also, the growth patterns are different where LED acropora can sometimes grow from the bottom up instead of branching out like they do in the ocean or under different lights. Pay special attention to the part about no power savings:
https://reefs.com/2016/01/05/leds-500-gallon-reef/

[tastyfish]

+1 on JDA's advice, which is kind of what I was trying to say on the other forum - you might need more than you think (even if the stated light spread says x) and there might be alternatives which other supersize tank users are running or upsides/downsides you haven't thought of.

[ReefWreak]

A new one to look at is the ReeFi-Lab pendant.
This is a new outfit and I just bought one to try it out. I'm very impressed with it. It uses 50 Cree leds, and has way more blue than white in the 5 channel color control. It uses a glass lens to adjust light spread from 2'x2' up to 3'x3', even the fan is controllable/adjustable with the software! They are $300 each (+$75 for each mount & goose neck) and I think 3 would be enough, but 4 would be enough to insure you could grow anything! So 4 with mounting hardware would only be $1500.


Do you have a link to a thread on this pendent? I wonder if this is the same person whose thread I had been following last year when I was getting really deep into LEDs, but haven't read in a long time (it was a very technical thread). I can't recall the OP's name, but I wonder if this is the first commercialization of that person's thread.

[ca1ore]

I'd echo that the 'problem' with LED is coverage. Most of the fixtures are point source lights (like MH) but without the large reflectors to mitigate said problem. Even better lenses don't solve the fundamental point source problem. I'm surprised we haven't seen LED fixtures with larger reflectors (with the diodes pointed up), but I suppose that would ruin the aesthetic. The consequence of poor coverage is that you end up with many more fixtures than you thought you would need. I have double the number I thought I would need. I would disagree with the above link in one regard - my green bali slimer has grown like a weed under LED.

[ReefWreak]

The coverage issue is why I want to see more user experience with the new Philips CoralCare lights. Their splash guard diffuses the LED light which should help with coverage/dispersion, but there just haven't been that many posts on RC yet about these lights since they haven't been released in the US yet.

I can see that with LEDs, even with no reflectors on them, the coverage is much smaller than people would think. With my small nano tank, using LEDs with no reflectors at all, I still have coverage issues with a distributed array (RapidLED Retrofit).

[LQT]

Hence the 7 a360s in my recommendation. The more point sources that you can independently articulate and angle, the better coverage and shadow reduction that you'll achieve.

[jda]

The coverage issue is why I want to see more user experience with the new Philips CoralCare lights. Their splash guard diffuses the LED light which should help with coverage/dispersion, but there just haven't been that many posts on RC yet about these lights since they haven't been released in the US yet.

They will be the same as other panel-based LEDs. Splash Guard is just like a lens. Diffusing is not the same as reflecting.

A spherical output LED in a reflector would be the next best way to go, but I don't think that they are coming. I think that ca1ore is onto it - the folks want the aesthetic and those who are willing to have reflectors would not likely want a LED and would just put a Radium or Phoenix in there.

[Gweeds]

Gweeds, you don't need to spend $3200 in order to get quality fixtures... unless you really want to!

Are the fixtures going inside a canopy or will the be out in the open over the tank?

How would you like to mount them? Hanging from brackets (or the ceiling), on goose-necks mounted to the back of the cabinet (or tank) or on legs that stand on the tank?

Take a look at Reef Breeders AquaSanrise R120 or Photon V2 48.
Both are 48" long so you'll only need two. The R120's would cost you only $1400. They have all the features you asked for and then some, like leds that are easy to replace with a screwdriver! The V2's would cost only $1170. They both use Cree and other quality leds, They both use aluminum cases, they have multiple channels (6) of color control, they do 24 hour sunrise/sunset control, they have thermally controlled fans (I run my 50" version of the V2 at about 75% and it runs so cool the fan doesn't even come on) and they are both very sleek and modern looking.

A new one to look at is the ReeFi-Lab pendant.
This is a new outfit and I just bought one to try it out. I'm very impressed with it. It uses 50 Cree leds, and has way more blue than white in the 5 channel color control. It uses a glass lens to adjust light spread from 2'x2' up to 3'x3', even the fan is controllable/adjustable with the software! They are $300 each (+$75 for each mount & goose neck) and I think 3 would be enough, but 4 would be enough to insure you could grow anything! So 4 with mounting hardware would only be $1500.

Will they last 10 years... being completely honest, I doubt it very much. But then I'd say the same thing about the very top of the line, most expensive brands like Eco Tech and Pacific Sun. And before 10 years go by, there will be great improvements in lighting, just like there has been over the last 10 years. Heck 10 years ago virtually nobody was using leds over an aquarium! Now 75% of the new fixtures sold are leds.
Brilliant Ron, thanks for all the info... haven't even heard of most of these!! Budget was given as the absolute max, so if I can bring it in under half I'll be well pleased!

One question, why are the eco tech / kessil / AI units so much more expensive? I assumed there would be a big difference in performance and or quality of build for the price differential, but there doesn't seem to be... are reefers really paying double for the brand?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[ReefWreak]

One question, why are the eco tech / kessil / AI units so much more expensive? I assumed there would be a big difference in performance and or quality of build for the price differential, but there doesn't seem to be... are reefers really paying double for the brand?

R&D costs, brand name, marketing, excellent products with consistent high quality. I have 2 vortechs on a nano. Could I have gone cheaper, yes. Am I glad I didn't? Yes. Customer service is excellent with Ecotech. You pay a LOT upfront, but they're great companies with excellent USA support. Can you do just as well without Ecotech, Kessil, AI? Yes, absolutely. I have DIY and have done great, and many others have done fine with Reefbreeders or Chinese LEDs from ebay. Lots of options in the hobby!

[Gweeds]

Post this in the SPS forum and ask for folks who actually light large SPS tanks with LEDs. You are on a different planet than the folks who you might get responses from here that are lighting a cube, 75G or even a 150G... which while getting big is not quite the same as what you have with over 2 feet of breath and depth which is a different problem to solve than 18 or twenty inches. Then ask what kind of SPS and filter out the monti, birdsnest and stylophora folks, unless this is what you are wanting to keep - these are weeds to most Acropora keepers that have super easy requirements.

The nuance in the kind of SPS will be REALLY important, so don't overlook this. The nuance with the coverage and shadows from just a few panels will be just as big if you want to have a nice SPS tank. This is why you need to ask folks solving the same problem as you. The nuance in the climate where you live is huge too since some will get hot, some will not, but heat is a blessing to some folks (I have no idea where you are from, sorry).

There is a guy on there now that has a nice video of his large tank under LED. Hold onto your shorts when you find out how many panels he uses. This is a top 20% tank, IMO, but he does it right. It is not just him, but the ones who do it pretty well will be something like 10-12, or more, Radion Pros (or the equivalent) to cover that kind of area if they are into acropora at a high level and not the easier SPS.

In the end, you might find out that what you have is not all that expensive. Reflectors are still the cheapest way to light large tanks with high light demand corals.

I have some lights that are 10+ years old, but they have needed parts - a starter, socket, end cap or ignitor here or there. I would not count on this with anything that you buy.

I have a big tank like you (almost) - 8x28x24 and I cannot afford to light it with LED either upfront or ongoing. I will leave out that I think that they are an inferior light source for SPS. However, if I did, the Radions provide the best color, but shadow like crazy, so I would need three or four units to replace each MH that I have - 12-16 total. The wide panel units like ReefBreeders, AcroOptics make for better coverage, but still not enough, but the color blend is not as good - I would need twice as many of these as what they recommend. By the time that I added all of these panels, there would be no power savings of any kind. I know that this does not help you very much, but you are seriously looking at a hard problem to solve which you will find out when you get more input from large-tank folks.

I would strongly consider this advice, which I think is well founded for a guy with a large tank and offers a balanced review. He got his panels for free, which is significant. His observations that A. Millepora don't do as well is spot on - this is a coral that high end Acropora folks love. Also, the growth patterns are different where LED acropora can sometimes grow from the bottom up instead of branching out like they do in the ocean or under different lights. Pay special attention to the part about no power savings:
https://reefs.com/2016/01/05/leds-500-gallon-reef/
Thanks for all this, makes perfect sense. I have a few monti frags already and they are growing under my somewhat dodgy Chinese black boxes... I will be moving onto acros, I'd guess in around 12 months or so (my tank is 14 months old now and I wouldn't consider it fully cycled and matured until it's at least 24 months).

The montis were a bit of a test and once lighting is sorted, they'll be moved down the rock to make space. Flow etc is all set for acros long term as is my maintenance and nutrient control.

My biggest concern with T5s is the near constant swapping out of tubes, with a couple of 8 tube, 48 inch fixtures and assuming tubes are swapped out every 6 months, I'd be looking at 320 new tubes over the ten year period I'm aiming for.

I know the 10 year thing is unlikely, reality is I'll want to upgrade whatever I get after about 5 as tech moves on, but I have to use something as a benchmark for comparison purposes and I like round numbers [emoji2]

Having spoken to a few guys who still run the original hydras, they've averaged one new puk per 3 units over 5 years... the puks themselves aren't a huge cost so over time, even without there being any real difference in energy usage, good leds are still cheaper to run imo.

The shading does concern me with leds, but i still think the shimmer effect more than makes up for that aesthetically vs t5s. I will probably end up with a hybrid of led and t5 lol. MH is a big no no... the heat and energy consumption is just too much.

I'm based in the east of the UK, in Norfolk. So running temperature is not too big a concern, but that also means I don't have to run any cooling, even in the summer. It nearly hit 30c here a couple of weeks ago, my tank never went above 82f which is where I keep it (81/82) and 30c is VERY rare (maybe one day a year). If I got MH I would need some kind of cooling which then bumps cost up further.

Decisions decisions!!



Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[jda]

You answered your own question... not enough people would pay more if they were not better for some reason.

If you are getting advice that they are the same, then ask the folks who are currently doing what you are going to do... not people with mixed reefs, a monti or two or a small tank. You will get a better answers that you can use from large-tank SPS folks.

[Gweeds]

+1 on JDA's advice, which is kind of what I was trying to say on the other forum - you might need more than you think (even if the stated light spread says x) and there might be alternatives which other supersize tank users are running or upsides/downsides you haven't thought of.
Thanks, yes I have posted this across 4 forums I think to get the most responses.

Interestingly the most recommended across all the replies so far have been the radion g4 pro, but cost is just too prohibitive.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Gweeds]

The coverage issue is why I want to see more user experience with the new Philips CoralCare lights. Their splash guard diffuses the LED light which should help with coverage/dispersion, but there just haven't been that many posts on RC yet about these lights since they haven't been released in the US yet.

I can see that with LEDs, even with no reflectors on them, the coverage is much smaller than people would think. With my small nano tank, using LEDs with no reflectors at all, I still have coverage issues with a distributed array (RapidLED Retrofit).
The CoralCare lights certainly look interesting. I think I'm right in saying the radion g4s also have this light diffuser set up too?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[jda]

Thanks, yes I have posted this across 4 forums I think to get the most responses.

Interestingly the most recommended across all the replies so far have been the radion g4 pro, but cost is just too prohibitive.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

You are not likely asking the right people, unless they recommended at least eight or more of those... and most who know what they are doing with a large tank will probably be more like twelve or more.

Seek out large-tank folks exclusively. Everybody thinks that their 120 or 125 is the same as a 24+ inch deep or wide tank, but it is a different world and the same stuff does not scale. I cannot stress this enough.

You can use T5s for a year unless you want something like a top 1-2% SPS tank in which case you will be seeking MH anyway.

MH don't have to heat your tank up in a cooler climate. With large tanks, the heat will save you more than the cost to run a fan. Good design and a few fans are usually all that are needed.

[tastyfish]

I would think outside the box. Everyone will recommend Radio a etc as they are viewed as the best. People who pay a premium for them won't come out and say their choice was wrong either.

Hence, why other supersize tank owners actual experiences are gold dust.

Personally, I like to follow a different path and am willing to experiment otherwise I would have a set of Radio a or hydras over my (much smaller) tank.

How are you mounting them? Are they going to be in a cabinet, enclosed, or hanging? What about bracing etc?

There's lots of large tanks on here and UR, I'd have a look at some of those build threads too

[Gweeds]

I would think outside the box. Everyone will recommend Radio a etc as they are viewed as the best. People who pay a premium for them won't come out and say their choice was wrong either.

Hence, why other supersize tank owners actual experiences are gold dust.

Personally, I like to follow a different path and am willing to experiment otherwise I would have a set of Radio a or hydras over my (much smaller) tank.

How are you mounting them? Are they going to be in a cabinet, enclosed, or hanging? What about bracing etc?

There's lots of large tanks on here and UR, I'd have a look at some of those build threads too
Thanks, yes I've been working my way through some of the larger builds.

True what you say about the radions etc I guess... it takes a brave person to say the £700 per unit they just spent was wasted!

As for thinking outside the box... it's what I do best lol... the tank is run as an immune / resistant system... heck I even purposefully introduced brook over the weekend [emoji1]

I even thought about light tubes... but the UK just doesn't have the hours of sunlight needed [emoji20]

I'll be diying a hanging fixture to give me flexibility to move whatever units I do plump for in the end... currently I have a hood bit that will be going with the light upgrade. I do have bracing and a rim. The bracing splits the tank into 4 sections a little under 24" each, with the bracing being 4" itself. I don't want the rim on show so will likely keep the rim of the hood to give the appearance of a lid and something to fix the mounting too.

For reference l, here's a fts from yesterday... you can see how poor the current lighting is!!

That little twig at the top, right in the centre of the left light (just below my OST who is mid turn) is my green digi frag... to give scale, that's about 4 inches tall and about the same left to right.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/4cbf53a93fc3e664a5fc2afc4326e4d3.jpg

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[jda]

The high end SPS large tank folks are EXCATLY the kind of folks who will abandon $5k in fixtures if they are not performing. The want the best of the best and they won't hold onto a silly purchase if it is not working. They have done it. Check out tdb320reef's threads - he is a large tank guy, had a large investment in LED and switched and his thread lays it all out including the challenges of large tanks.

I don't seem to be getting anywhere, so I will try one last time and then just leave. You NEED to get feedback from large-tanks SPSers. They are a different breed. They have money (you have to) and have tried stuff. They have experience. They get the nuance and details. You need to get feedback from them. It will be more honest and more applicable than you will get from anybody else.

I did not give you my setup since you asked for LEDs but we have similar sized tanks, so here it goes... I use 3x250W 14K Phoenix on M80s and a pair of 150W 14K Phoenix on M81 on the ends - best of breed. No T5s, no dusk/dawn... just on/off with a light timer. Open top, hanging fixture. No heat issues, but I have a non-heat climate here in Colorado. I would need 12-16 Radion Pros or 12-16 Kessil 700s to replace these in coverage and the color would still not be as good. There would be no energy savings. I replace bulbs every 24 months for like $300 which I can cut a handful of higher end frags to more than pay for. If your tank was mine, I would get 4x 20x20 reflectors from Hamilton and run 250W Radium in them, hang them in an enclosure so that the top of the tank can breath to keep cool.

[Gweeds]

The high end SPS large tank folks are EXCATLY the kind of folks who will abandon $5k in fixtures if they are not performing. The want the best of the best and they won't hold onto a silly purchase if it is not working. They have done it. Check out tdb320reef's threads - he is a large tank guy, had a large investment in LED and switched and his thread lays it all out including the challenges of large tanks.

I don't seem to be getting anywhere, so I will try one last time and then just leave. You NEED to get feedback from large-tanks SPSers. They are a different breed. They have money (you have to) and have tried stuff. They have experience. They get the nuance and details. You need to get feedback from them. It will be more honest and more applicable than you will get from anybody else.

I did not give you my setup since you asked for LEDs but we have similar sized tanks, so here it goes... I use 3x250W 14K Phoenix on M80s and a pair of 150W 14K Phoenix on M81 on the ends - best of breed. No T5s, no dusk/dawn... just on/off with a light timer. Open top, hanging fixture. No heat issues, but I have a non-heat climate here in Colorado. I would need 12-16 Radion Pros or 12-16 Kessil 700s to replace these in coverage and the color would still not be as good. There would be no energy savings. I replace bulbs every 24 months for like $300 which I can cut a handful of higher end frags to more than pay for. If your tank was mine, I would get 4x 20x20 reflectors from Hamilton and run 250W Radium in them, hang them in an enclosure so that the top of the tank can breath to keep cool.
Thanks, you are getting somewhere I promise... I just posted in the sps forum [emoji4]

Take a read, there's a load of background as to why I need (I think) leds and the challenge I've set myself...

Honestly, I agree with you and if I could I'd go with MH... but I would need cooling given where my tank sits in the house and the high temp I run at and I need the full sunrise / sunset to run my reef as naturally as possible... appreciate my MO is different to a lot of reefers, but we all have our reasons I guess.

Thanks for the advice... it is heeded I promise!!

If you happen to be on that other forum too, look up my build thread and the thread on the immune / resistant system route...

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Potatohead]

It seems to me most of the guys really successful with LED's and SPS are mostly using Radions. The one main exception is David Saxby who has 28 (!!!) Hydra 52's over his tank, but his tank is not SPS exclusive either.

If it were me I would do a couple Sunpowers and swap bulbs every 10 - 12 months.

[jda]

Cool. Sorry to be emphatic, but there are too many bad choices made for large tanks.

Although I hope that you do, I don't think that you are going to get any posts that will help you with what you want to do in that budget. Large SPS tanks and LED are nearly impossible without a lot of panels. I wanted you to hear from the folks who do it, though, and not conjecture from folks who think that what they do will scale since this can lead you down the road of lots of wasted money and missed expectations.

I think that in the end, you will either figure out how to deal with heat if you really want a nice SPS tank (it is not that hard), or will get some LEDs and have a nice mixed reef with some easier to keep SPS in the mix. This is what happens to most folks. If you decide to go LED/mixed route, then I would get the larger panels (ReefBreeders, AcroOptics, etc.), just twice as many as what people will suggest to you. :) I would fill the top with panels.

[Gweeds]

Cool. Sorry to be emphatic, but there are too many bad choices made for large tanks.

Although I hope that you do, I don't think that you are going to get any posts that will help you with what you want to do in that budget. Large SPS tanks and LED are nearly impossible without a lot of panels. I wanted you to hear from the folks who do it, though, and not conjecture from folks who think that what they do will scale since this can lead you down the road of lots of wasted money and missed expectations.

I think that in the end, you will either figure out how to deal with heat if you really want a nice SPS tank (it is not that hard), or will get some LEDs and have a nice mixed reef with some easier to keep SPS in the mix. This is what happens to most folks. If you decide to go LED/mixed route, then I would get the larger panels (ReefBreeders, AcroOptics, etc.), just twice as many as what people will suggest to you. :) I would fill the top with panels.
Thanks, appreciated. It will be a mixed reef, that's all part of the natural approach... but a good 50% of the tank will be dedicated to acros... of this I am certain as it's the challenge I've been set... I don't do failure!

When my tank was overrun with bryopsis and cyano I set myself the challenge of turning it around in a month... I did that.

I set myself the challenge of developing resistance to common diseases in my fish... I've done that (ich and brook so far and a decent protocol for introducing pathogens and building resistance to them)

I was set the challenge of growing sps for under £2500 total spend (including tank, stand, livestock, everything) and I've achieved that (monti only granted, but technically sps regardless)

Also, the budget is a challenge too, so again I will not fail on that front either... there is a certain satisfaction which comes from achieving the impossible!

We will see... the more I read, the more I am inclined to buy some bigger Chinese black boxes for the shimmer and then surround them with t5s for the growth. I just can't get past the challenge aspect and that was always to be 100% led...

I'll have to look at DIY too... the possibilities are endless there and I do currently have a hood to hide anything effective but hideous in! It may be the only way to get the right coverage at the right price.

I appreciate your help and your concerns... I share them. But you are speaking to someone who in the last 18 months has started and completed a self build home for my mother, bought a new home & renovated it, set up a 8ft reef tank for £2500, had a third child, arranged a wedding, got a promotion and all whilst working full time in a job which averages 60 hours and a 1000 miles of driving per week. As I said, I don't do failure... or sleep [emoji6]

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Vinny Kreyling]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2621935&page=8
Check out post 178

[Ted_C]

I'm personally running two Pacific Sun Pandora S3. each lamp has 2x145w LED, 4x39w T5 so that gives me 4 pucks across the 8 feet and 8 t5's that run for 4 hours to cover everything else.

https://pclaypool.homeserver.com/public_pictures/2017_04_14_310_Lights_1.jpg

https://pclaypool.homeserver.com/public_pictures/2016_07_10_Light_Frame_3.jpg

Fully programmable for sunrise/sunset. I run filter socks so the water is usually crystal clear and can only run the lamps at a maximum of 40%. 10 hr total photoperiod w/ 90 minute sunrise and 90 minute sunset.

It's a new tank so I dont have long term pics to provide. I've had success with Pac Sun LEDs in the past though.

Full tank coverage:
https://pclaypool.homeserver.com/public_pictures/2017_04_14_310_FTS.jpg

[tastyfish]

If you wanted to expand the budget and go for the Mitras, have a chat with xDave on UR. He runs his extremely large tank on mitras and there probably isn't much to know that he hasn't experienced or thought of on these lights.

I didn't suggest earlier as there was no way they would be within your stated budget

[Stolireef]

My personal experience both with my own tanks and having visited many others, is that the shading issue is way overstated with today's lights. Granted it's not a 350 gallon tank, but I'm running two G4's over my 125. It's deep front to back (30 inches) and the coverage is solid from front to back and side to side. If I really wanted to have absolutely complete coverage, I could turn them perpendicular to the front of the tank and add a third. Even running at less than 60% intensity, my par at the bottom of the tank is well over 250 at 20 inches deep (haven't measured it for a few months and I've been playing around with the light quite a bit).

This is a new tank growing mostly frags so perhaps things will change as they grow into colonies but I'd really doubt that. I have a friend that keeps a 750 gallon tank using a bunch of the original AI Hydras. Most high end SPS. His colors are extremely intense, his growth is insane (literally growing out of the top of the tank), and he's only running at about 40% intensity.

BTW, this is coming from someone who ran dual 400 Watt Radiums and VHO actinics for ten years and swore by them.

[Gweeds]

My personal experience both with my own tanks and having visited many others, is that the shading issue is way overstated with today's lights. Granted it's not a 350 gallon tank, but I'm running two G4's over my 125. It's deep front to back (30 inches) and the coverage is solid from front to back and side to side. If I really wanted to have absolutely complete coverage, I could turn them perpendicular to the front of the tank and add a third. Even running at less than 60% intensity, my par at the bottom of the tank is well over 250 at 20 inches deep (haven't measured it for a few months and I've been playing around with the light quite a bit).

This is a new tank growing mostly frags so perhaps things will change as they grow into colonies but I'd really doubt that. I have a friend that keeps a 750 gallon tank using a bunch of the original AI Hydras. Most high end SPS. His colors are extremely intense, his growth is insane (literally growing out of the top of the tank), and he's only running at about 40% intensity.

BTW, this is coming from someone who ran dual 400 Watt Radiums and VHO actinics for ten years and swore by them.
Thanks... I'm leaning towards 4 reefled coronas now... according to a very well respected LFS that i visited today, the puks are identical to the radion gen 3... but the price point is just below half that of the gen4. They showed me their SPS frag grow out tanks which run off these and the colours and growth is phenomenal.

Either that or the hydra 52HDs still, again 4, mounted perpendicular to the tank as you mention. I figure at 100% the par at 26" is going to be excellent still.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[rickyb]

Gweeds,

There are many different ways to run a successful tank. My last tank was a 180 6x2x2, it was full of SPS and run the simplest way possible. For lights, I run 3 x 400w MH with 14K Phoenix bulbs and 2 160w actinic VHO's.

To me this setup was perfect, coloration, coverage was excellent (to ME).

In early 2014 I started a 400 gallon 6x3x3. This time around, I basically did most everything the same, except the lights. I did some research and was not about to spend 4K+ in lights to cover the tank as I already knew it was going to be full SPS, that's when I found a thread in RC about LedZeal and decided to give them a try. I first both one 5FT light and as the tank matured and I added more corals added 2 more, 1 5FT and the other 4 FT due to the back overflows.
Is now been 3+ years in the making, all corals were grown from 1"-2" frags. I will say I have been successful with these lights.

I'm not saying that should go and give them your paycheck, but I know for fact that these lights work. Are they the best lights? probably not, do they grow SPS? hell yeah!

I feel that the colors LED vs MH still needs improvement, but that's just me. Oh and I run my lights from 8am to 11pm with ramp up and down by using their DYI mode in their controller, at 95%. I still wonder why many folks hesitate to increase the % on their lights, I wish mine could go 150%, I am a true believer that corals need more light that we can possibly give them.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rickyb]

Here is a picture for reference. I have over 80 different SPS in here.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170628/3959f3f44e1009a408c6fc1d0b61a030.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[karimwassef]

Any lighting would work with enough PAR. The question is whether you can afford enough of the expensive LEDs to cover your space or whether you can afford the cooling required to run Halides. I don't know anything about CFL.

Here's my PAR and tank

For SPS, I keep 800 (shadows) to 1600 (highest lit) on the water surface.

Here's a surface PAR map showing new bulbs (top) and old bulbs (below)

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/LED%20experiments/Capture_zpsqflx1soi.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/LED%20experiments/Capture_zpsqflx1soi.png" border="0" alt=" photo Capture_zpsqflx1soi.png"/></a>

I've since replaced the reflectors on the side to the same as the middle.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg"/></a>

[Stolireef]

Here is a picture for reference. I have over 80 different SPS in here.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170628/3959f3f44e1009a408c6fc1d0b61a030.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JDA: I'm a callin' you out on this! His growth is obviously stunted and weird and his colors are just not what they should be.:deadhorse:

[Stolireef]

I think that we are still learning how to use LED's. I communicated with the peeps at Battle Corals and Cultivated Reef and they both run their LED's at very high intensities. I'm slowly ramping mine up in the hope of finding a sweet spot. One thing that is definitely true is that MH/T5 is way less complicated. Turn 'm on/ Turn 'm off. Only thing you have to decide is your photo-period.

[rickyb]

Stolireef,

Keep in mind that my picture is NOT a good representation of coloration. The picture provided was to show that the lights can grow SPS. The picture was taken with a phone. Coral colors are way better in person or with a good camera and white balance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jda]

JDA: I'm a callin' you out on this! His growth is obviously stunted and weird and his colors are just not what they should be.:deadhorse:

You don't have to call me out, he flat out said as much. Read the post. He is also using twice the panels that other people would basically covering the whole top of the tank. Is any of this different than I have been saying - lots of panels (more than recommended) for not as good of colors. I would need better pictures to see if the colonies are dying from the bottom up - that is another LED stable for most, but the best of the best can avoid it if they use enough panels.

[Stolireef]

Stolireef,

Keep in mind that my picture is NOT a good representation of coloration. The picture provided was to show that the lights can grow SPS. The picture was taken with a phone. Coral colors are way better in person or with a good camera and white balance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry about the misplaced sarcasm. I was actually complimenting how beautiful your tank is. It's a little bit fun to needle JDA because he really doesn't like LED tanks.

[Stolireef]

You don't have to call me out, he flat out said as much. Read the post. He is also using twice the panels that other people would basically covering the whole top of the tank. Is any of this different than I have been saying - lots of panels (more than recommended) for not as good of colors. I would need better pictures to see if the colonies are dying from the bottom up - that is another LED stable for most, but the best of the best can avoid it if they use enough panels.

Not really on a tank that size. I agree that LED manu's tend to overstate their coverage. That said, LEDs can produce gorgeous results. As I even agreed, on my tank, I may (emphasis on may) have to add a third fixture if shadowing becomes a problem. Even with three full Radions running at full power, I'd be running at about 500 watts vs. about 1000 watts running T5's and 400W Radiums.

[jda]

If a 80% as good of tank is OK with you, then cool. When people ask, it is good to tell them that even the BEST tanks lit with LED will admit that the color is not as good...but it might be worth it for other reasons. Saying that they produce "gorgeous" results and leaving out this, and every other, nuance that might matter to somebody is bad advice. They are not the same - I try and describe the differences. I don't hate on anybody who decides to use one over the other, but I kinda do have a problem with those who refuse to relay the differences to those who are interested. Rickyb's post is kinda like Dr. Joshis article and is very honest and true from what I see - really nice tank with LEDs and he described the differences well (color not as good and lots and lots of panels) - I wonder if rickyb strugges with milles like a lot of LED folks do.

I am sure that you have never seen me recommend 400W MH and T5 to all but the biggest tanks and most serious folks who are OK with the wattage for various reason. 150W HQI and 250W will do for most. Switch to some 150W Phoenix for a while, save some electricity and you will likely never switch back.

[biecacka]

I know when Sanjay was first experimenting with Radions (years back, gen1) he ran 3 on a 40 gallon breeder I think. This was to get best coverage and do his best to eliminate shadowing. I know leds have came a LOOOONG way since then, but the point is 3 on a 40 gallon. That's a lot of light. At some point the savings in electricity become void. I think that is mostly what jda is trying to emphasize.
I tend to agree, we need to double or at least 1.5 the number of units the manufacturer suggests. While there is no doubt LEDs grow corals, but as you stated we are still learning a lot about them which could include multiple units over recommended numbers.
At some point buying x number of units becomes ineffective of cost savings. One for e up front cost, and 2 for running number of said units at said watts, might be cheaper to run another source. This was my experience, I ran four rapidled units, at high intensity, didn't get the coverage I wanted so I switched back to a single 400 radium and it's easier to operate and is doing its job!

It's personal preference for sure.

Corey

[Potatohead]

As beautiful as Stoli's reef is, you can tell it's a point light source just by looking at the growth. It could be the way the corals are fragged but (especially the left side) they seem to grow mostly up and towards the center of the tank. With a softer light source (or more led panels) you get more even, rounded growth.

[Dugless]

If you want lower cost, LEDs are the worst option of the bunch. This was the marketed story in the beginning, but the argument holds no water now. Most don't even break even with bulb replacement until 5-7 years down the road.

The coverage issue plaguing LEDs isn't a matter of light footprint, but rather shading and light refraction after coral colonies start to take hold. The more mature your reef, the more challenging it will be with LEDs.

[Stolireef]

As beautiful as Stoli's reef is, you can tell it's a point light source just by looking at the growth. It could be the way the corals are fragged but (especially the left side) they seem to grow mostly up and towards the center of the tank. With a softer light source (or more led panels) you get more even, rounded growth.
Not my tank. Ricky's tank.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[tastyfish]

Gorgeous tank Ricky, particularly given the fact that I have seen the pics of this growing from little twig frags!

[Potatohead]

Not my tank. Ricky's tank.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

I'm not sure how I screwed that up, thanks

[rickyb]

I wonder if rickyb strugges with milles like a lot of LED folks do.

I have 3 or 4 millies in there, I know 1 for sure is not growing due to the green slimmer covering the sky above as well as encrusting around it.

you can tell it's a point light source just by looking at the growth. It could be the way the corals are fragged but (especially the left side) they seem to grow mostly up and towards the center of the tank. With a softer light source (or more led panels) you get more even, rounded growth.

This is due to the panels are 5FT long, running 60 and 90 degree lenses, and not able to cover the edges of the tank, plus there is a frag rack on that area.

[ComforablyNumb]

If you want lower cost, LEDs are the worst option of the bunch. This was the marketed story in the beginning, but the argument holds no water now. Most don't even break even with bulb replacement until 5-7 years down the road.

I am not getting the basic logic here. I replaced 2 mH fixtures of 250w + 100w ho actinics running at 700 watts total, with 2 kessil a360's 180 watts total rated for 50,000 hrs.

I had to pay approx $140 annually for the two 20k mH bulbs and another $75 a year for the ho actinics, which I replaced only every 2 yrs.

Say you run your kessils for 5 yrs: the total bulb replacement cost for the mH fixtures would be well over $600 alone. And there has to be an energy savings when you replace 700 watts worth of mH light with 180 watts of LED.
No?

I used the same photo period, same tank, at least as good results with the Kessils, after replacing the mH with them. I also very much like the kessil shimmer, but that is a personal choice.

[Potatohead]

I am not getting the basic logic here. I replaced 2 mH fixtures of 250w + 100w ho actinics running at 700 watts total, with 2 kessil a360's 180 watts total rated for 50,000 hrs.

I had to pay approx $140 annually for the two 20k mH bulbs and another $75 a year for the ho actinics, which I replaced only every 2 yrs.

Say you run your kessils for 5 yrs: the total bulb replacement cost for the mH fixtures would be well over $600 alone. And there has to be an energy savings when you replace 700 watts worth of mH light with 180 watts of LED.
No?

I used the same photo period, same tank, at least as good results with the Kessils, after replacing the mH with them. I also very much like the kessil shimmer, but that is a personal choice.

Wattage is wattage. You are not getting the same amount of light into the tank with 1/4 the wattage you had before... You just aren't (that doesn't mean it's not working for you). Even if LED can get by on average with half the wattage, it still takes a lot of bulb changes to make up for the price difference of the fixtures themselves.

[Dugless]

Your Kessil LEDs are visually lighting your tank, but I would wager that the PAR and possibly spectrum aren't as capable as your MHs were. Either that, or your reflectors were poorly applying that light and just wasting energy.

I'm not sure how long it has been since your transition to LEDs, but I would encourage you to reassess your coral health after 6-8 months to see if growth and color are still as good. Most go the route of slowly adding more LED fixtures as they aren't providing enough light.

But then again, it depends on what you're trying to keep. A mixed reef doesn't demand the type of light some fixtures provide.

[Stolireef]

Wattage is wattage. You are not getting the same amount of light into the tank with 1/4 the wattage you had before... You just aren't (that doesn't mean it's not working for you). Even if LED can get by on average with half the wattage, it still takes a lot of bulb changes to make up for the price difference of the fixtures themselves.

Wattage is wattage, yes. Wattage for a given amount of light, absolutely not. An LED is light years more efficient than either incandescent or fluorescent. So, for the same wattage, an LED gives you way more light. MH wastes an order of magnitude more watts on heat than an LED. If you don't believe it, touch a 150 halide bulb and a 150 watt LED fixture.

[karimwassef]

Wattage is Wattage and PAR is PAR
PAR is not Wattage.

and PAR is not even a complete indicator of light. It's just the best one we've got.

[Dugless]

The argument for efficiency in LEDs is always centered on energy, but very little attention is given to the small light footprint and high fixture costs. In order to achieve a diffuse blanket of light, you unfortunately need so many LED fixtures at high initial costs. And unfortunately more fixtures use more energy. This is not very efficient in my book.

[ComforablyNumb]

"Wattage is wattage."

Most good quality LEDS claim to output 2.5 - 3.5 times more lumens per input watt than hot-burning sources like mH. Maybe they lied to me, dunno. Efficiency is also efficiency.

When I went thru the conversion to LED, I only bought one Kessil and replaced one fixture with it. Certainly in appearance there was not that much more light, side by side with the Kessil running at 100% intensity. The nature of the light was certainly different but not the overall brightness to any great discernible extent. Both sides of the tank were viewable side by side for 2 months before I bought the 2nd kessil. I watched coral growth on both sides of the tank for that period of course and again, not that much difference between them.

In my above example...the actual bulb replacement costs over 5 yrs are:
mH = $760 (2 mH per annum at $70 per bulb is $560 and 2 actinics per year per fixture at $25ea is $200 ......... 4 replacements over 5 yrs) $760

LED = $0

And I know my electrical and cooling costs dropped by quite a bit as well. Straight math says it would be one third of what is was. And the heat. I also have to dispute what someone said above about heat not being transferred into the tank. That was not my experience at all. Under mH, I had a heat problem in the summer..under LED I did not.

- two new kessils = $800
- two new mH fixtures like I had (Orbit Marine 250w mH with 4 x 25w HO actinic) is approx $500 + $760 in bulbs = $1260 + increased electrical costs

Maybe the mH's were putting out more light, but from my observations it wasn't really that much. And if my corals had suffered I would have reverted back to mH as I still have those mH space heaters around. My corals always come first.

I grow most types including SPS
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o169/annietim/IMG_4899_zpslhvcjera.jpg (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/annietim/media/IMG_4899_zpslhvcjera.jpg.html)
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o169/annietim/IMG_4897_zpsekgy0hku.jpg (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/annietim/media/IMG_4897_zpsekgy0hku.jpg.html)
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o169/annietim/IMG_4912_zpschheq4rl.jpg (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/annietim/media/IMG_4912_zpschheq4rl.jpg.html)



As with all things reef, your mileage may vary. ;) Regards, Tim

[Stolireef]

Agreed. I'll give it some time, but right now I'm pretty sold on my Radion's performance. Once again, I'll grant that it's a new tank with mostly frags, but all are high end and require pretty intense quality light and all are both retaining excellent color and growing. I'll also grant the possibility that I may have to add one more fixture a year or two down the line but thats still an 'if come'. Oh, and I'm running the Radions at about 60%

[ComforablyNumb]

Effin photobucket. Time to change. They just did that to me.

"PhotoBucket now charges $399 for third-party hosted images."

[Ron Reefman]

Wattage is wattage. You are not getting the same amount of light into the tank with 1/4 the wattage you had before... You just aren't (that doesn't mean it's not working for you). Even if LED can get by on average with half the wattage, it still takes a lot of bulb changes to make up for the price difference of the fixtures themselves.

Comfortlynumb is exactly right.

Don't count the watts, read the PAR meter (as karimwassef said, it's the best measuring tool we have for light) and you'll see leds produce more light inside the tank with less watts. It's about watts wasted in heat, and the difference between MH reflectors and led design and lenses.

I have 4 tanks and replaced MH & t5 fixtures (1500 watts) with $1200 in led fixtures in a group buy deal that would have cost $1700 retail (900 watts). The MH and t5 ran at full power, the leds ran at about 65% power (roughly 600 watts) and produced the very same PAR numbers.

I replaced t5's every year and MH's every 2 years. My bulb savings alone was over $400! Now I'll admit, I live in SW Florida so I run A/C a lot (but just keep the house at 80F ) and ran a 1hp chiller and a 1/3rd hp chiller (4 tanks/ 2 systems/ 600g total) and both chillers are outside in the backyard. My chillers hardly run anymore and my house A/C runs less. The first year my electric bill was $400 less than the year before and the next year is was even a bit lower!

So my new leds (6 fixtures) paid for themselves in less than 18 months! And even at full retail would have paid for themselves in 2 years. At the end of 5 years I bought newer fixtures that are even more efficient and sold the old ones for $400.

There is nothing wrong with using MH or t5, they light tanks as well or better than leds, but they all work. And you don't need to but $800 EcoTech Radions to have great led performance. MarsAqua, Viparspecta, Euphotica, and others do fine at $100+. So the cost of led fixtures being too high is also BS.

[ComforablyNumb]

Well put Ron.

[Potatohead]

I'm not going to get into the science of it, BRS has done a ton of testing on lighting and you can watch until your heart's content. I don't have much experience with halides so I'll leave those alone, but I have a definite doubt that LED watt for watt put more light into the tank than an ATI Sunpower and it's definitely not spread out as evenly.

[Ron Reefman]

I'm not going to get into the science of it, BRS has done a ton of testing on lighting and you can watch until your heart's content. I don't have much experience with halides so I'll leave those alone, but I have a definite doubt that LED watt for watt put more light into the tank than an ATI Sunpower and it's definitely not spread out as evenly.

There isn't a lot of science involved. All it takes is a PAR meter. Watt for watt an led puts more light into the tank than a t5 or MH.

[Fredfish]

There isn't a lot of science involved. All it takes is a PAR meter. Watt for watt an led puts more light into the tank than a t5 or MH.
The simple answer is that, watt for watt, most LEDs put out more light than MH or T5.

For general purpose white light, it isn`t even close any more. We replaced all our fluorescent and HID lighting in our plant two years ago. Electricity costs were halved. Payback was 3 months. Now, that`s with the most efficient LEDs and measuring lumin efficacy (light our eyes are sensitive to.

That efficiency advantage narrows to approximately 30%, as measured by Phillips (watts at the wall vs PAR), in a marine aquarium light using high efficiency LEDs of a quality binning.

At this point, as you pointed out earlier, LED, MH and T5 all work just fine. Pick which ever you prefer and go forward in confidence.

[jda]

Those of us who have been around with a wide breath and depth of experience have heard this before with each new light source. Some are quickly debunked and some live on for longer. PCs were more watt for watt into the tank too. T5 were more than VHO, but it was the reflector, not the lights. Neither of these are true - but VHO and T5 are nearly equal watt for watt once VHO got good reflectors.

It is not really true for full-spectrum lighting using a real professional tool like an Integrating Sphere for measurement... but not enough folks have access to one. Output is the same per watt for most light sources. This is only really true for an incomplete, hobby grade tool like a PAR meter... especially with some LED manfs now exclusively making fixtures to pop the PAR meter since most don't know that a PAR meter does not measure all good spectrum equally and will buy them just off of the bad advice to trust the PAR meter.

Again, saying that each "work just fine" is like saying that 1). balanced diet, 2). McDonalds and 3). Krispy Kreme all "work just fine" to keep humans alive. There are details and nuance that probably matter to most folks and you are leading people to believe that there are not any with statements like these. Something like "people are happy with each different light source for various reasons, but they are different, so do your research" is probably better advice.

[Stolireef]

Again, saying that each "work just fine" is like saying that 1). balanced diet, 2). McDonalds and 3). Krispy Kreme all "work just fine" to keep humans alive.

This is a completely hyperbolic metaphor for the differences between the three light sources. It's more like what is healthier; Whole milk, low fat milk or skim milk. All three light sources have been proven repeatedly to grow beautiful high end sps and yes, in large colonies.

[jda]

Can you not see the differences in the light sources, or just refuse to acknowledge them? ...or do you not believe that details matter in all aspects of live and that generic statements are good enough. Either works, I guess... but some people will want to excel in one fashion or another and not just be good enough and will want to know the differences.

BTW - in you example, each of those Milk sources is healthy and/or un-healthy depending on what you want. Calling all three equally healthy and not pointing out the differences with some nuance is simpleton, just like the your last sentence or the "work just fine" argument. You undoubtedly understood the nuance in the argument about the milk when you typed this sentence, but it cannot possibly apply to lighting too? The exceptional people in this world deal in the details and nuance.

[Stolireef]

JDA:

Of course I recognize the differences in the light sources. There are differences in everything from color rendering, hot spots, general appearances, etc. What I was saying is that the differences between the quality of the lights is far less than your metaphor would suggest.

Also, by virtually any measure that I've reviewed, lumen output per watt of LED's is far greater than almost any other light source. We can certainly agree that the wavelengths of light between all three sources can be different, but I have yet to see any scientific study that indicates that one light source will grow corals better than another. What I have seen are many anectdotal opinions that one is 'better' than the other.

Right now, I think Ca1ore is running a pretty solid basic lighting bakeoff. It will still be somewhat subjective but at least we'll have a good side to side comparison.

[jda]

My metaphor was not about the differences, rather the "they all work" or "have been proven to work" simpleton statements that help nobody (at best) and confuse and mislead some (at worst). Thankfully, I have not seen "a photon is a photon" in this thread, and while instantly regretted by it's author, is equally as simpleton.

I agree that metaphors are no substitute for actual differences, but the work OK for meaningless statements, since the metaphors are equally as meaningless.

[Fredfish]

...

It is not really true for full-spectrum lighting using a real professional tool like an Integrating Sphere for measurement... but not enough folks have access to one. Output is the same per watt for most light sources. This is only really true for an incomplete, hobby grade tool like a PAR meter... especially with some LED manfs now exclusively making fixtures to pop the PAR meter since most don't know that a PAR meter does not measure all good spectrum equally and will buy them just off of the bad advice to trust the PAR meter.
...
Um, par meters existed long before the hobby discovered them. They are real scientific grade instruments used in research. It also happens that they can be rather useful in our hobby, your personal dislike not withstanding.

We all have our lighting biases. I personally don't like the look of T5. Doesn't mean they are not a valid light source. It just means I don't like them. I would suggest your dislike of LEDs is similar.

[karimwassef]

Output light per watt is not the same for different light sources.

[Ron Reefman]

This is a completely hyperbolic metaphor for the differences between the three light sources. It's more like what is healthier; Whole milk, low fat milk or skim milk. All three light sources have been proven repeatedly to grow beautiful high end sps and yes, in large colonies.

Well stated. :beer:

[Ron Reefman]

My metaphor was not about the differences, rather the "they all work" or "have been proven to work" simpleton statements that help nobody (at best) and confuse and mislead some (at worst). Thankfully, I have not seen "a photon is a photon" in this thread, and while instantly regretted by it's author, is equally as simpleton.

I agree that metaphors are no substitute for actual differences, but the work OK for meaningless statements, since the metaphors are equally as meaningless.

So we are all simpletons now. Thanks jda!

[Stolireef]

BTW, I'm pretty sure I was the simpleton who asked a question about lighting and 'photons being photons'. The question however was asked in the spirit of understanding how light blends and whether the blending of the light say in an LED fixture (which I would characterize as digital) was similar to the spectrum of light provided by halides or T5s (which I would characterize as analog).

[Stolireef]

So we are all simpletons now. Thanks jda!
Welcome to the club 😁

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Dugless]

I'm not in the camp of any type of lighting. My opinions are never static and I'm always reassessing different options for what's best at the time. Plenty has changed in my 15+ years of reefing and it would be foolish to stick with what I once knew to be best, just out of stubbornness. Unfortunately, there are camps to the point of silliness in which people work towards finding arguments within another's comments. :(

When it comes to lighting, I truly want the best option that results in colorful acropora coral. Acros are really the only litmus test that I find valuable as every other type of coral is generally within a limited range of color potential.

There are a few things I look for in my lighting.

Intensity
I want strong light that is capable of creating high levels of PAR throughout the entire depth of the tank. Alongside this, I want the light to be visually bright and appealing so I can enjoy my aquarium. LEDs have high amounts of PAR, but usually at the expense that they are turned down and lose out on potential visible light. It's also difficult to know what's enough or too much without additional measurements. T5s give very strong PAR evenly from top to bottom with no need for adjustment and do the best job of visually illuminating a tank completely, almost to a fault of giving a flat appearance. MHs provide strong but the least PAR, and have similar visual brightness as T5s but with added movement through shadows and glitter lines.

Diffusion
I want light bouncing everywhere, from the sides and even from underneath, especially when acropora colonies become large. I want healthy undersides and beautiful color deep into branches and not just the first few inches of the coral tips. Colonies should grow naturally symmetrical and not towards or away from strong single point light sources. I think T5s have a slight edge over MHs with their individual reflectors creating a panel of light, while LEDs struggling here and rely on inferior lenses to refract light and color spacing to blend a spectrum.

Color
This one is tricky since there are two types of color. Instant perceived color and actual long term coral pigmentation. LEDs are the big winners in the perception of instant color pop. The same coral will look different under each light source, but most flock to the blacklight-like blue LEDs. T5s follow with instant color rendition but with a more natural appearance. Lastly, MHs are similar to T5s but they require more supplementation while providing the most natural color.

However, when it comes to actual pigmentation, LEDs have struggled to give the complete spectrum provided by MHs and T5s. Every new LED generation has different color mixes still searching for a better more complete spectrum, whereas MHs/T5s have time proven bulb options with optimal spikes at the right wavelengths. LEDs are getting very close but are still experimenting with every fixture release.

Considering these points, yes, success can be had with all options. But to me it is much easier to have success with Acropora coral using the more diffuse light that is set it and forget, like T5s and MHs.

[Bronx19]

This is easy.

2 x ATI Sunpower T5 Pendant 8 x 54w £430 each, £860 total.

7 x A360s is lunacy. They're £325 each for a total of £2275.

4 x Hydra 52s. £529 each, £2116.

You can bang on about bulbs and power till the cows come home. You'll go broke buying LEDs before you plug them in. And just to really kick you in the guts, none of them will perform to the T5 standard.

[Ron Reefman]

This is easy.

2 x ATI Sunpower T5 Pendant 8 x 54w £430 each, £860 total.

7 x A360s is lunacy. They're £325 each for a total of £2275.

4 x Hydra 52s. £529 each, £2116.

You can bang on about bulbs and power till the cows come home. You'll go broke buying LEDs before you plug them in. And just to really kick you in the guts, none of them will perform to the T5 standard.

If you only consider AI leds as an option... sure they are expensive. But they aren't the only game in town! 860 pounds is a little over $1100 US. Plus 16 t5 bulbs to replace every year 16 x $20 = $320/year... OUCH!

Try 2 RB Photon V2 of 32" at $500 or $1000 total. Two at 32" isn't enough? Then two at 48" are $1300 and you get all the advantages of leds just like the AI fixtures, and no bulbs to buy every year. And no new bulbs to buy if you want to change the color of the system. Sorry, I'll stick with leds, they are cheaper even in the short term, way cheaper over even just a year or 2, and way more controllable.

[ComforablyNumb]

You'll go broke buying LEDs before you plug them in.
none of them will perform to the T5 standard

Hilarious! What a load of crapp.

[Dugless]

Is anyone going to discuss the variable and inconsistent spectrum LEDs provide? Throughout the tank, each coral is going to receive different light based on the reliance of blending each individual LED. On many fixtures there are just a few red or ultra violet lights. Does no one see this as a downfall?

[mofro]

This always goes in circles...
There is only one answer in my book: best of both worlds. Not everyone can sell a kidney on ebay to afford a powermodule hybrid.... but there are options.
Have recently gone the oute of adding a diy "reefbrite style" led strip with 8 x 3w royal blues leds to my 6 x 24w sunpower.
I am bathing with t5's and still achieving great pop incolours and shimmer from the leds.
No shading, no discoball effect, full spectrum and with the added leds, i can lose two of the ati bulbs to save on both electricity and bulb replacement costs.
Considering the mass swing to leds by most reefers, availability of used t5 fixtures seem to be commonplace and you can pick one up for a steal.
Yes sure i can't simulate sunset and sunrise as gently as led fixtures, nor can i scare the life out of my fish with a lightning storm. In 13 years, i havent been able to do that and the tang i have had for twelve seems just fine without it.
Ih and yes, my corals grow like crazy, 95%++ acropora.

[Gweeds]

Jeez... I feel like I've created a monster!! I've been away, got married and the thread continues!

Thanks for all the input... however you do the maths, Leds are the cheaper option over time... and I'm talking about running them for 10 yrs or until they die...

Anyhoo, looks like I've made the choice...

Having done a little research myself and having read everything on here the only consistency is that absolutely no one knows what's the best option for leds... so with that in mind it seems to make complete sense to go with a option that can be changed/ upgraded etc over time... something where the individual lenses and leds could be swapped out easily, where fans could be upgraded etc etc. Also, in order to keep costs down, I'd want something that was relatively cheap in the original outlay, knowing that perhaps the suggested savings in running leds vs others isn't as much as hoped for.

So, after all this, where have I ended up... Chinese black boxes, that's where... before everyone jumps on me for being ignorant (I'm not, I have a degree in biology, specifically human evolution) here are my reasons for why Chinese black boxes (I am talking specifically mars aqua here) are the best reef lighting available:

1. Initial cost - the 300w, 80cm fixture is under £140 delivered.
2. Leds supplied are cheaper epistar... just as good as Cree, but less consistent and with a more variable wavelength... a bonus in my eyes as this surely just provides more light across the spectrum.
3. Future proof... they are simple. You can change just about everything in them, from the fans to the power supply to the leds and lenses, allowing you to upgrade as and when things move forward or when parts inevitably fail.
4. Coverage. I can afford to buy 6 of the 300w units which will cover my tank completely.
5. Par readings are equivalent to the more prestigious brands.
6. Customisable... I will likely swap out the 3500k warm whites with UV leds, which looks simple as far as I can see.
7. Running costs... they are actually about 220w not 300w so are slightly cheaper to run... with not having to swap out bulbs every 6 months or so, running costs over a 10 year period should be less than t5s or mh.
7. UK stock and repairable in UK too.
8. I think they are the best option and I am rarely, if ever, wrong.

So, thanks for all the input. As I said, I think this is such a contentious subject that it doesn't actually matter what I get, people will never agree it's any good, so I'm going with what I think is the best, based on all the really useful info you've all supplied.

Cheers.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Stolireef]

Jeez... I feel like I've created a monster!! I've been away, got married and the thread continues!

Thanks for all the input... however you do the maths, Leds are the cheaper option over time... and I'm talking about running them for 10 yrs or until they die...

Anyhoo, looks like I've made the choice...

Having done a little research myself and having read everything on here the only consistency is that absolutely no one knows what's the best option for leds... so with that in mind it seems to make complete sense to go with a option that can be changed/ upgraded etc over time... something where the individual lenses and leds could be swapped out easily, where fans could be upgraded etc etc. Also, in order to keep costs down, I'd want something that was relatively cheap in the original outlay, knowing that perhaps the suggested savings in running leds vs others isn't as much as hoped for.

So, after all this, where have I ended up... Chinese black boxes, that's where... before everyone jumps on me for being ignorant (I'm not, I have a degree in biology, specifically human evolution) here are my reasons for why Chinese black boxes (I am talking specifically mars aqua here) are the best reef lighting available:

1. Initial cost - the 300w, 80cm fixture is under £140 delivered.
2. Leds supplied are cheaper epistar... just as good as Cree, but less consistent and with a more variable wavelength... a bonus in my eyes as this surely just provides more light across the spectrum.
3. Future proof... they are simple. You can change just about everything in them, from the fans to the power supply to the leds and lenses, allowing you to upgrade as and when things move forward or when parts inevitably fail.
4. Coverage. I can afford to buy 6 of the 300w units which will cover my tank completely.
5. Par readings are equivalent to the more prestigious brands.
6. Customisable... I will likely swap out the 3500k warm whites with UV leds, which looks simple as far as I can see.
7. Running costs... they are actually about 220w not 300w so are slightly cheaper to run... with not having to swap out bulbs every 6 months or so, running costs over a 10 year period should be less than t5s or mh.
7. UK stock and repairable in UK too.
8. I think they are the best option and I am rarely, if ever, wrong.

So, thanks for all the input. As I said, I think this is such a contentious subject that it doesn't actually matter what I get, people will never agree it's any good, so I'm going with what I think is the best, based on all the really useful info you've all supplied.

Cheers.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Great post and a great approach.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Bronx19]

You'll go broke buying LEDs before you plug them in.
none of them will perform to the T5 standard

Hilarious! What a load of crapp.

Brand name LEDs are far more expensive, fact. Point source lighting cannot hit SPS the way T5 does, fact.

Its not the way we like it, its just the way it is.

[Dugless]

If you go for 6 fixtures, won't your energy usage be pretty high? Also, Chinese and future proof aren't two things often associated with one another. Good luck with your plans!

[Gweeds]

If you go for 6 fixtures, won't your energy usage be pretty high? Also, Chinese and future proof aren't two things often associated with one another. Good luck with your plans!
Yes it will, but as i said right at the beginning, i expected savings over time to come from not replacing tubes vs t5s. 16 tube fitting, replacing every 6 months = 32 tubes per yr at about £20 per tube = £640 per year... the leds would need to be consuming a he'll of a lot if energy for t5s to be cheaper!

As for the comment re the Chinese... have you ever looked up the inventions and tech advancements made by that country? Not to mention that they'll soon be the biggest economy in the world... hardly a recipe for going backwards is it!?! As with anything, simplicity equals customiseability equals future proof, even if that isn't designed in at great expense.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Gweeds]

Brand name LEDs are far more expensive, fact. Point source lighting cannot hit SPS the way T5 does, fact.

Its not the way we like it, its just the way it is.
Prove it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Bronx19]

Prove it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

My previous post contains UK pricing for the two major LED brands this thread was discussing as well as ATI Sunpower pricing. Bulb replacements 16/year x £20 comes to £320/year. He could buy the T5 units, and change bulbs for 4.5 years before he hits break even using the Kessil example. Then his running cost will be more. But there will also exist LEDs two generations ahead of now... You know how that game works.

However, for all those years and all the ongoing years he will have had the gold standard of lighting. An LED can only direct light in a narrow cone from the top down. This hardly needs covering, there is a reason Maxspect have tacked wings onto their latest Razor.

[Potatohead]

Prove it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Wut

It's pretty clear to anyone with eyes that T5 provides, way, way better coverage and light spread than LED (and halide for that matter).

[Gweeds]

My previous post contains UK pricing for the two major LED brands this thread was discussing as well as ATI Sunpower pricing. Bulb replacements 16/year x £20 comes to £320/year. He could buy the T5 units, and change bulbs for 4.5 years before he hits break even using the Kessil example. Then his running cost will be more. But there will also exist LEDs two generations ahead of now... You know how that game works.

However, for all those years and all the ongoing years he will have had the gold standard of lighting. An LED can only direct light in a narrow cone from the top down. This hardly needs covering, there is a reason Maxspect have tacked wings onto their latest Razor.
Thanks... fyi 'he' is me :)

T5 just not an option... I'm sure I put that in original post?

I'm a stubborn bugger and am determined to see this done with leds... now the challenge has moved onto cheap leds :)

I've spent years looking at FW under t5s and am so over it... appreciate it might be the 'best' in your opinion, but when you're comparing with AI and eco tech leds and I'm now looming at black boxes for a 5th of the price, I reckon they'll come up smelling of roses. No science behind that, just my opinion :)

Would be really interested to see the science behind the 'leds can't hit sps like t5s can' statement... I get the point source argument but with enough variance in the led wavelengths across the fixture the actual light hitting the corals should be of a decent spectrum.

I think the biggest issue here is that we just don't know the wavelengths of light which the zooxanthellae actually use to photosynthesise, if we did then all reef lighting would hit exactly the same nm, but it doesn't... the advantage of t5 is that there is more variance in the wavelength of the light and thus you're more likely to hit the right ones... hopefully by using cheaper leds, this variance will also be evident, to the benefit of the corals.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[ComforablyNumb]

"Point source lighting cannot hit SPS the way T5 does, fact." -Bronx19


That is not fact, altho it seems to be your impression.
Look at this SPS that was grown entirely under point source LED (Kessil in this case) in my tank over 22 months:


Frags when I first got them:
http://i.imgur.com/DulU3a5.jpg

Approx 12 months
http://i.imgur.com/8tYQ19P.jpg

Approx 15 months:
http://i.imgur.com/hLNtrhY.jpg

Approx 20 months:
http://i.imgur.com/xcvzFWG.jpg

All single point LED (2 kessils) and no supplemental lighting at all...and I'm happy with the growth.

[Gweeds]

Wut

It's pretty clear to anyone with eyes that T5 provides, way, way better coverage and light spread than LED (and halide for that matter).
I really meant... explain how T5s 'hit' SPS in the first instance... it's all great that were saying that t5s are better and we can see better spread of light etc, but what is actually the difference? Are we talking a million photons extra per NS, a billion? Nine? Less? I don't expect and answer to that, which is kinda my point... we don't know. All we can do is see the difference, but does that actually make any difference, on a cellular level, to the zooxanthellae or is it just us projecting our own aesthetic preferences onto the argument?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Gweeds]

"Point source lighting cannot hit SPS the way T5 does, fact."


That is not fact, altho it seems to be your impression.

Look at this SPS that was grown entirely under LED (Kessil in this case) in my tank over 22 months:


Frags when I first got them:
http://i.imgur.com/DulU3a5.jpg

Approx 12 months
http://i.imgur.com/8tYQ19P.jpg

Approx 15 months:
http://i.imgur.com/hLNtrhY.jpg

Approx 20 months:
http://i.imgur.com/WB39LJD.jpg

All single point LED...and I'm happy with the growth.
Ah, bingo... actual proof! Now all we need is the exact same coral, in the exact same place, in the exact same tank, with the exact same nutrients, with the exact same pressures over the exact same timespan with t5s...

I think I may have made my point...

The info in all of this thread is great, really, really great, it all confirms exactly what I thought...

We don't know what type of lighting is best and there is no scientific basis for our opinions on the subject... ergo, we might as well just plump for the lighting we prefer and ignore our corals entirely!

Has there ever been any actual study into the wavelengths of light that the zooxanthellae species within acros actually use to photosynthesise?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Fredfish]

Jeez... I feel like I've created a monster!! I've been away, got married and the thread continues!
...
Nah, just woke it up from its afternoon nap. :)

I'm glad you've come to a decision you feel comfortable with. That's the important part. I'm sure the Mars Aqua will work just fine for you.

[Potatohead]

I really meant... explain how T5s 'hit' SPS in the first instance... it's all great that were saying that t5s are better and we can see better spread of light etc, but what is actually the difference? Are we talking a million photons extra per NS, a billion? Nine? Less? I don't expect and answer to that, which is kinda my point... we don't know. All we can do is see the difference, but does that actually make any difference, on a cellular level, to the zooxanthellae or is it just us projecting our own aesthetic preferences onto the argument?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

T5 simply covers more of the tank. The light is extremely diffused and reflects off glass and sand better, and therefore shadowing is greatly reduced. This leads to much healthier and nicer looking sides and undersides of the corals comparatively. It's like comparing sunlight to a huge spotlight, the former is immensely more diffused with far less shadowing.

"Point source lighting cannot hit SPS the way T5 does, fact."


That is not fact, altho it seems to be your impression.

Look at this SPS that was grown entirely under LED (Kessil in this case) in my tank over 22 months:

All single point LED...and I'm happy with the growth.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but it's a stylo which isn't difficult (for sps), and in the last pic the underside is white, which is kind of proving our/my point.

[LQT]

"Point source lighting cannot hit SPS the way T5 does, fact."


That is not fact, altho it seems to be your impression.

Look at this SPS that was grown entirely under LED (Kessil in this case) in my tank over 22 months:


Frags when I first got them:
http://i.imgur.com/DulU3a5.jpg

Approx 12 months
http://i.imgur.com/8tYQ19P.jpg

Approx 15 months:
http://i.imgur.com/hLNtrhY.jpg

Approx 20 months:
http://i.imgur.com/xcvzFWG.jpg

All single point LED...and I'm happy with the growth.

Oh c'mon, stylos don't count, those are like GSP of the SPS world. :rolleye1: :D

After all of this back n forth nonsense :deadhorse:, I'm curious as to what the OP decided on for his tank.

[ComforablyNumb]

Not trying to be a jerk here, but it's a stylo which isn't difficult (for sps), and in the last pic the underside is white, which is kind of proving our/my point.

No trying to be a jerk here, but any shading "damage" you see is entirely natural and exactly what you would see in the wild. And are sytlo's SPS or not? Sure, some corals may be more difficult that stylo's, but my point remains..you can easily grow sps under single point light.

Some of that lower damage was caused by anemone when it went for a walk..but its growing back.
I dont have any acro's, but thats a personal choice..I dont happen to like colored sticks.

[Gweeds]

Oh c'mon, stylos don't count, those are like GSP of the SPS world. :rolleye1: :D

After all of this back n forth nonsense :deadhorse:, I'm curious as to what the OP decided on for his tank.
Check out post #80

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[LQT]

Nice! :D

[Potatohead]

No trying to be a jerk here, but any shading "damage" you see is entirely natural and exactly what you would see in the wild.

So are algae, aiptasia and monti eating nudibranchs but that doesn't mean I want them in my reef :).

[ComforablyNumb]

So are algae, aiptasia and monti eating nudibranchs but that doesn't mean I find them acceptable in my reef.

Now you're just being ridiculous I'm afraid. You wouldnt have that stylo in your tank?

You'd be ashamed to show it? C'mon.

[Potatohead]

Now you're just being ridiculous I'm afraid.

Sure.

At the end of the day people are going to use what they want to use, it's really that simple. I have used LED, switched to T5 and highly prefer the latter. I may go back to LED at some point but I can't see doing that for a long time because I've been there and done that. You may feel the opposite and that is fine too.

[ComforablyNumb]

So please cut out the silly blanket statements, thats all I'm asking.
LED's work fine and I happen to love the shimmer that you cannot get from t5

[Potatohead]

I think the only blanket statement I made was that T5 cover a lot better than LED which isn't really a far-fetched notion.

[ComforablyNumb]

A distinction with no real difference.
My corals are proof.

I have no reason to lie..I ran mH and t5 for years

And I still have them and would switch back if it would make any diff to my corals
Dont need the space heaters anymore and I was very happy to finally get rid of them.

[jda]

I am happy that you are happy with your choice.

I might suggest that you buy an extra panel and keep it for a rainy day. I think that you will find that your ten year expectation, along with upgradability and fixability will sound better on the interwebs than they do in practice. In any case, it is cheap insurance that you might consider since they will stop making these exact ones soon and while there will surely be new models, they are not always "upgrades" and might look different. You might need a panel or you just might need parts.

Lastly, if you expect people to take you seriously, you need to reset your calculations away from six month bulb changes for T5s. It is just too much and folks will think that you are cherry picking to make a point. A year is more like it, unless you are overdriving them, and that is what people want to see for a more fair analysis. Even at a year, it can be daunting for a large tank - people without large tanks just don't get the costs.

As for the point source, it is pretty much true. It is not just with LED... MH on a very small reflector or pendant will do the same thing. I am afraid that there is not much to argue here, it just is what it is... and a stylo with a dead LPS skeleton behind it, mushrooms and some BTAs are hardly proof otherwise. You can grow stylos in a fuge with a 100W screw in bulb on a clip-on reflector - this a fact too.

[ComforablyNumb]

I might suggest that you buy an extra panel and keep it for a rainy day.

I have plenty and I have an extra Kessil as well..was not needed.

Lastly, if you expect people to take you seriously, you need to reset your calculations away from six month bulb changes for T5s.

I didnt use a 6 month one for the t5 bulbs. I used an 18 month replacement schedule and one yr for the mH bulbs. Reasonable..no?

and a stylo with a dead LPS skeleton behind it, mushrooms and some BTAs are hardly proof otherwise.

What dead skeleton? The one from the first pic when the tank was brand new and was never a live coral at anytime I ever had it? C'mon man.

[Dugless]

The irregular and thin non-branching growth are telling that this stylophora was grown under single point lighting with poor refraction. Stylophora should be thick, dense and for the most part symmetrical. I want natural growth encouraged by proper light spread. Not frankencorals that appear to be growing away or towards a beam of light.

[Bronx19]

Not trying to be a jerk here, but it's a stylo which isn't difficult (for sps), and in the last pic the underside is white, which is kind of proving our/my point.

I thought the same. You can see the undersides of those branches are bone. Thats exactly what we dont want.

Gweeds, I forgot who I was talking to. When I said T5 hits the corals, I'm not referring to spectrum but the angle of the light. A round tube in a reflector sends light vertically down (like LED) and the reflector sends the rest across the tank in a very wide arc. The bulb that sits at the back of the tank is sending light right across the tank to the front glass pane. The bulb at the front does the opposite, and the same applies to all bulbs in between.

There is simply no way for light emitted from a diode, positioned above the tank, can hit the sides of SPS branches, thus they go bone white.

BTW, I'm all for cheap LED, I started with 2x Ocean Revive units and they served me well, until I got into SPS. I would also add that I think you're in for trouble trying to get a lot of years out of Chinese fixtures, they're made to be disposable.

[ComforablyNumb]

The irregular and thin non-branching growth are telling that this stylophora was grown under single point lighting with poor refraction.

What irregular and thin non-branching coral were you looking at?
http://i.imgur.com/hLNtrhY.jpg


FTS:
http://i.imgur.com/Tbrm5qC.jpg



And dont let my low post count on this site fool you. I have been reefing since 1989 and have had large and small tanks.


Pics of a couple of my older ones from 1990 and 1998:
http://i.imgur.com/9vBdDT1.jpg

I thought the same. You can see the undersides of those branches are bone. Thats exactly what we dont want.
http://i.imgur.com/hLNtrhY.jpg

I have no idea what you are complaining about. Good healthy coral that grows quickly.

EDIT - I lost all my pics with PhotoSuckit and am now using Imgur. But I noticed my FTS is HHHHHHUGE.
Anyone know why that may be? If you right click on that image and open it in a new tab, it looks fine.

[Gweeds]

I am happy that you are happy with your choice.

I might suggest that you buy an extra panel and keep it for a rainy day. I think that you will find that your ten year expectation, along with upgradability and fixability will sound better on the interwebs than they do in practice. In any case, it is cheap insurance that you might consider since they will stop making these exact ones soon and while there will surely be new models, they are not always "upgrades" and might look different. You might need a panel or you just might need parts.

Lastly, if you expect people to take you seriously, you need to reset your calculations away from six month bulb changes for T5s. It is just too much and folks will think that you are cherry picking to make a point. A year is more like it, unless you are overdriving them, and that is what people want to see for a more fair analysis. Even at a year, it can be daunting for a large tank - people without large tanks just don't get the costs.

As for the point source, it is pretty much true. It is not just with LED... MH on a very small reflector or pendant will do the same thing. I am afraid that there is not much to argue here, it just is what it is... and a stylo with a dead LPS skeleton behind it, mushrooms and some BTAs are hardly proof otherwise. You can grow stylos in a fuge with a 100W screw in bulb on a clip-on reflector - this a fact too.
Thanks, that's a good shout re the extra panel.

Re the tube usage, I was working off my own experience with t5s over FW... within 6 months tube performance would reduce by over 50% and begin to encourage algae growth (225g ish planted) so had to be replaced... I didn't realise the marine tubes lasted twice as long...

Tbf, I think if you half the tube costs I projected, it's still a he'll of an outlay over 10 years... heck, I could buy 12 mars units and swap them out at 5 years and still be better off!

Completely agree with what you're saying re large tanks... I change 500ml of rowa each fortnight, the same in carbon. A water change of 10% is the same volume as some entire systems and I lose nearly 10 litres per day in evaporation!

My refuge alone is 120 litres... it's like pulling weeds in the garden harvesting the thing... not to mention the near 200kgs of rock (which would have cost £2800 at new prices).

The fact that I've kept set up costs to £2500 is testament to my bargain hunting skills and diy ability... by way of example I've recently picked up two (broken) jebao dc6000 pumps... one has a broken impeller and the other a fault with the controller... I paid less than £20 each for them and together they'll easily make one working pump for under £40. New price is more than double that...

For most a 6000 lph dc pump would be a beast of a pump to run as a return... for me it will just be running my 3 stage fluidised reactor!

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Dugless]

These are older photos as I no longer have stylophoras. The first image is a frag that grew out to a thick dense colony as shown in the second image. The last image shows a small colony grown from a frag, but notice the healthy color and extension of it's underside polyps. Also the growth is symmetrically dense and full. You can't see the skeletal structure because the polyp health is so dense, undersides included. All of these were achieved by proper light provided by high quality MH reflectors.

[dz6t]

"Wattage is wattage."

Most good quality LEDS claim to output 2.5 - 3.5 times more lumens per input watt than hot-burning sources like mH. Maybe they lied to me, dunno. Efficiency is also efficiency.



Depend on how they measure the output.
If they integrate total quantum output in a say, 24x24x24 space, led generate in general about 25 to 50% more photon than a good metal halide. But the coverage of led is poor. Most photon are centered around the chip and photon counts rapidly fall off even slightly away from the center.
So a metal halide with good reflector can spread photon more evenly in the same space.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stolireef]

These are older photos as I no longer have stylophoras. The first image is a frag that grew out to a thick dense colony as shown in the second image. The last image shows a small colony grown from a frag, but notice the healthy color and extension of it's underside polyps. Also the growth is symmetrically dense and full. You can't see the skeletal structure because the polyp health is so dense, undersides included. All of these were achieved by proper light provided by high quality MH reflectors.
I think I would take odds that this growth pattern is influenced as much by flow as light.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Potatohead]

This is a stylo:

[ComforablyNumb]

All of these were achieved by proper light provided by high quality MH reflectors.

Gorgeous! They are beautiful and healthy.

Here are more of mine:

one of 3 sps frags I got 14 months ago:
http://i.imgur.com/mCP0RdP.jpg


same frags last month:
http://i.imgur.com/4ItASuX.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ygK9FBi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/43V3oZM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FP0P8ca.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mSwiATp.jpg



Octo 20 months ago:
http://i.imgur.com/H0dungX.jpg

last month:
http://i.imgur.com/pfvr1Xz.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/O8Dgt6R.jpg


All under two kessils only. There's many ways to skin a cat these days. I liked your pics very much tho. Thx for posting.

[karimwassef]

I love stylos, they can get wild though

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg"/></a>

[ComforablyNumb]

Very nice. This is turning into the best hijacked thread ever..apologies to OP.

I should note I have no sump on my tank, only a protein skimmer. No other filtration
at all. Two Kessils on controller. I no longer test for anything but alk, 33gal water change every 2 months,
basic IO salt. Same setup and schedule for almost 2 yrs.

Did the bells and whistles for many yrs previously, bad sump seam failure had me thinking more simple for this
tank which I first set up almost 2 yrs ago now, after I moved from Ottawa. My reef, being relatively young,
has really caused me no problems so far, and I am happy with my growth rates. I do however much prefer lps, softies, etc to acro's which I find relatively boring in appearance. That is NOT to slag the beautiful acro dominated tank above and other impressive ones I have seen on this site..at all. They are very impressive..but there's always personal choice and preference that gets mixed into my tanks... rightly or wrongly. And I like them all from blue mushrooms to acros.


http://i.imgur.com/GQ35RuZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pxfCP9u.jpg
If you look closely at the candycane, you will notice about a dozen new heads emerging underneath. Behind the main colony you will see a section I broke off previously...looks like I may doing that again in another few months.

[karimwassef]

I prefer combinations. My experience is that each light source has benefits and drawbacks. I use metal halides and LEDs and they each contribute differently. The results are that my corals grow out of the water before I have a chance to prune them.

[ComforablyNumb]

The irregular and thin non-branching growth are telling that this stylophora was grown under single point lighting with poor refraction. Stylophora should be thick, dense and for the most part symmetrical. I want natural growth encouraged by proper light spread. Not frankencorals that appear to be growing away or towards a beam of light.
Frankly, I dont really care what you think of my stylo. Frankencoral...really? Its healthy, it grows and there are more than one variant of these corals I would think. All may not, or should not, look identical in my opinion. You prefer more of a flatter rounder appearance..I like them both. Flow may affect how this coral grows too I would think. I have good flow, but I do not blast my corals as the lps seem to react negatively when I do.


http://i.imgur.com/hLNtrhY.jpg
Your objection seems more based on personal preference I think...all I can say is to each his own.
Regards, Tim

[Ron Reefman]

Jeez... I feel like I've created a monster!! I've been away, got married and the thread continues!

Thanks for all the input... however you do the maths, Leds are the cheaper option over time... and I'm talking about running them for 10 yrs or until they die...

Anyhoo, looks like I've made the choice...

Having done a little research myself and having read everything on here the only consistency is that absolutely no one knows what's the best option for leds... so with that in mind it seems to make complete sense to go with a option that can be changed/ upgraded etc over time... something where the individual lenses and leds could be swapped out easily, where fans could be upgraded etc etc. Also, in order to keep costs down, I'd want something that was relatively cheap in the original outlay, knowing that perhaps the suggested savings in running leds vs others isn't as much as hoped for.

So, after all this, where have I ended up... Chinese black boxes, that's where... before everyone jumps on me for being ignorant (I'm not, I have a degree in biology, specifically human evolution) here are my reasons for why Chinese black boxes (I am talking specifically mars aqua here) are the best reef lighting available:

1. Initial cost - the 300w, 80cm fixture is under £140 delivered.
2. Leds supplied are cheaper epistar... just as good as Cree, but less consistent and with a more variable wavelength... a bonus in my eyes as this surely just provides more light across the spectrum.
3. Future proof... they are simple. You can change just about everything in them, from the fans to the power supply to the leds and lenses, allowing you to upgrade as and when things move forward or when parts inevitably fail.
4. Coverage. I can afford to buy 6 of the 300w units which will cover my tank completely.
5. Par readings are equivalent to the more prestigious brands.
6. Customisable... I will likely swap out the 3500k warm whites with UV leds, which looks simple as far as I can see.
7. Running costs... they are actually about 220w not 300w so are slightly cheaper to run... with not having to swap out bulbs every 6 months or so, running costs over a 10 year period should be less than t5s or mh.
7. UK stock and repairable in UK too.
8. I think they are the best option and I am rarely, if ever, wrong.

So, thanks for all the input. As I said, I think this is such a contentious subject that it doesn't actually matter what I get, people will never agree it's any good, so I'm going with what I think is the best, based on all the really useful info you've all supplied.

Cheers.

I think you've made a sound decision here Gweeds. And I think you will end up quite happy with your decision. Best of luck and I look forward to seeing pics of your system at some point.

The argument... I mean discussion, about t5 vs leds will run for a few more years. About 75% of all new light fixtures sold into the aquarium market are now leds. And don't get me wrong, t5's do have some advantages! But to me, they are just inconsequential to 95% of the reefing community. If, and to me that's still a big if, t5's are really that useful, fixture manufacturers will start making more hybrids with leds and t5's... but I have my doubts.

[jayball]

Has there ever been any actual study into the wavelengths of light that the zooxanthellae species within acros actually use to photosynthesise?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Thanks... fyi 'he' is me :)


I think the biggest issue here is that we just don't know the wavelengths of light which the zooxanthellae actually use to photosynthesise, if we did then all reef lighting would hit exactly the same nm, but it doesn't... the advantage of t5 is that there is more variance in the wavelength of the light and thus you're more likely to hit the right ones... hopefully by using cheaper leds, this variance will also be evident, to the benefit of the corals.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

We know the absorption spectrum for the chlorophyll and accessory pigments. There are many charts out there, you could likely find some primary sources on Advanced Aquarist.

Edit: A couple links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peridinin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorophyll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorophyll_a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorophyll_c

[ComforablyNumb]

grainy vid of reef, built into a wall
https://youtu.be/wQ2obLK3-YI

My planted Angelfish tank, 65gal Osaka rolled corners
https://youtu.be/owDiYJ54pnk
Plan to switch this tank over from t5 to Kessil TunaSun soon
T5 grows plants fine, but the light is flat compared to the reef, I want the kessil shimmer in this tank too
this vid takes about 5 secs to load for viewing for some reason

[Ron Reefman]

We know the absorption spectrum for the chlorophyll and accessory pigments. There are many charts out there, you could likely find some primary sources on Advanced Aquarist.

http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp37/RonReefman/led%20and%20light%20info/spectrum-corals_zpscel9w5hx.jpg (http://s395.photobucket.com/user/RonReefman/media/led%20and%20light%20info/spectrum-corals_zpscel9w5hx.jpg.html)

[karimwassef]

Photosynthesis (feeding) is only part of the equation. Different wavelength also trigger different responses in coral tissue - changing pigmentation, accelerating calcification, changing growth thickness and shape, chemical protection release, mucous release, and even prompting reproduction etc...

I've specifically added high intensity UV LEDs just under the burning flesh threshold to stimulate rapid recovery after pruning and fragging. I think it limits undesirable growths on the exposed sections just below the level that would harm the coral (much).

Can you tell where the UV spotlight was pointing? Hint- it's a circular region.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/81FD7AFC-C364-45E7-9ED9-CD4AFC7B9641_zpshjdcqy9x.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/81FD7AFC-C364-45E7-9ED9-CD4AFC7B9641_zpshjdcqy9x.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 81FD7AFC-C364-45E7-9ED9-CD4AFC7B9641_zpshjdcqy9x.jpg"></a>

Yes- green with blue tips > gold with purple tips.

[jda]

Again, details and nuance matter. There are many things that light does for coral. To name a few, it provides food to the dinos, it is reflected at the same wavelength that it comes in at, it can be reflected at a lower energy levels, and it can build pigments to use as "sunscreen" (IR range). When you combine all of these factors, and there are probably more, light from about 360nm to 720nm has use for a wide range of corals. Some don't need that low or high... some do. This is a gross overgeneralization and a single corals will almost certainly not be happy with 720 and 360 and will probably want a tighter range, but any chart of study that just shows dino food is not telling the whole story of lighting coral.

[ComforablyNumb]

Can you tell where the UV spotlight was pointing?
I can tell. ;)

Here is an output spectrograph chart for the a360 kessil. Note how blue it stays no matter how many "whiter" leds are lit within the cluster. (Kessil Logic) A friend told me that makes these idiot proof (good for me) but you still have to be careful of intensity and should ramp that up gradually when placing a coral that came from a different lighting source. Or..start the new coral down low in the tank and move it up as necessary. I run my intensity 0 - 80% ramp over 3 hrs, 6hrs at 80%, 3hr ramp back down. I have my "white" setting to match. Been using that schedule for 20 months since the changeout from mH/actinic, after about 3 months testing various levels of both spectrum and intensity for my corals. I have 2 over a 4' tank, lamps are approx 10" above surface. Note steady peak at 460nm, which tells me Kessil thinks this band is the most important for corals. I wish the chart was viewable down to 360nm but it is not.

http://i.imgur.com/1nTkdpz.png

*edit I also have the graph for the newer AP700 if anyone is interested..but it is quite similar.

[ComforablyNumb]

I just wanted to reiterate one point. There have been a couple here who have criticized my stylo as a "frankencoral" and having a weird color and shape. Not all corals of similar variety look the same...at all. My stylo is an Ora Blue Stylo aka Ora Catspaw Stylo. They also come in color varients.

Tyree Rainbow Stylo:
http://i.imgur.com/tvUKZMK.jpg

Ora Catspaw stylo, this is not my actual coral, but mine is the same variety:
http://i.imgur.com/xDpkexe.jpg

Ora pink stylo:
http://i.imgur.com/hp4MchB.jpg

Tyree green stylo:
http://i.imgur.com/KMuN74K.jpg

[Nammy]

Yes you're right ComforablyNumb and there's is nothing wrong with your coral, they look healthy. There are many more variables to corals growth other than just light and why they grow a certain way, most everyone knows that...just knowledge one gains with experience.
I sell all these type of corals in my store and in my coral bed in some case, you would think one coral needs more light than the other but both are next to each other. lol

[ComforablyNumb]

lol Acro-snobs...what can we do except call them out when they insult someone's healthy corals in public? Unwarranted, uneducated and condescending comments like jta's and dugger's may have driven a less experienced hobbyist out of the hobby altogether. You work hard, you study, you invest hard earned cash..and if it had been someone new (I have decades of experience) and someone said something like that to them like they said to me..they just may throw up their hands and say ah the heck with it and head over to the For Sale section.

And that is the LAST thing we want to see happen in this hobby.

Rant over..lol

[Potatohead]

I think if you look back at jda's posts you will see he is possibly the person on the site who offers the best, most sound advice. He was even acknowledged by the moderators as such a couple months ago.

Most people appreciate the cold hard truth because it saves them time and money in the end.

[Gweeds]

lol Acro-snobs...what can we do except call them out when they insult someone's healthy corals in public? Unwarranted and uneducated silly comments like jta's and dugger's may have driven a less experienced hobbyist out of the hobby altogether. You work hard, you study, you invest hard earned cash..and if it had been someone new (I have decades of experience) and someone said something like that them..they just may throw up their hands and say ah the heck with it and head over to the For Sale section.

And that is the LAST thing we want to see happen in this hobby.

Rant over..lol
I suppose the biggest question is (after the is it alive / healthy / growing question of course) are you happy with it, colour and growth wise?

If so, then ignore them... it's a bit like the playground on here sometimes... 'my stylo is better than your stylo' comments help no one and are frankly childish.

If someone compared their stylo to yours and noticed differences and then asked why they were different... then we're getting somewhere... down that road lies knowledge and wisdom...

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Gweeds]

I love playing the why game with my kids... although they've now cottoned on and after about 3 turns of my 'why' they give up and say 'because of the big bang'...

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Potatohead]

I suppose the biggest question is (after the is it alive / healthy / growing question of course) are you happy with it, colour and growth wise?

If so, then ignore them... it's a bit like the playground on here sometimes... 'my stylo is better than your stylo' comments help no one and are frankly childish.

If someone compared their stylo to yours and noticed differences and then asked why they were different... then we're getting somewhere... down that road lies knowledge and wisdom...

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

The point was not to slag in his coral, his reefkeeping, him, whatever. The point was to mention that the coral has an obvious issue because it was lit by LED lighting, when he was trying to show the opposite.

I think what jda and myself are trying to say is this;

LED is fine in 80+% of tanks. If you want a mixed reef and some easier SPS, have at her. If you want to grow acropora, and really colour it well and have it be very healthy, you are better off with other lighting. That's all we're saying.

[Nammy]

I suppose the biggest question is (after the is it alive / healthy / growing question of course) are you happy with it, colour and growth wise?

If so, then ignore them... it's a bit like the playground on here sometimes... 'my stylo is better than your stylo' comments help no one and are frankly childish.

If someone compared their stylo to yours and noticed differences and then asked why they were different... then we're getting somewhere... down that road lies knowledge and wisdom...

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Well said :)

[ComforablyNumb]

So please try saying it in a less insulting and condescending way. I have no problem with discussion on these points...where I do have a problem is when someone says "frankencoral" or disfigured or you dont know what you are talking about or whatever.

"The point was to mention that the coral has an obvious issue because it was lit by LED lighting, when he was trying to show the opposite."

And what obvious issue would that be please? That coral IS lit by LED and as many have said, it looks healthy to them (and me). I still fail to see the issue you have with my corals. It doesn't look like yours maybe and you dont care for its appearance. I may have the same issue with yours because it looks different than mine...but I do not. And I would never say to anyone what they said to me.

I appreciate all input, but please..be respectful when you voice your opinion. Dont be insulting is all I'm asking...they were both insulting.

I appreciate jda's experience.. but I wish he would appreciate mine as well. And be less condescending.

[Gweeds]

The point was not to slag in his coral, his reefkeeping, him, whatever. The point was to mention that the coral has an obvious issue because it was lit by LED lighting, when he was trying to show the opposite.

I think what jda and myself are trying to say is this;

LED is fine in 80+% of tanks. If you want a mixed reef and some easier SPS, have at her. If you want to grow acropora, and really colour it well and have it be very healthy, you are better off with other lighting. That's all we're saying.
I'm really hoping I remember this thread in 24 months or so... when my acros are growing out of the water and full of colourful polyps all over, all fuelled with some black box leds with the odd upgrade [emoji6]

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[ComforablyNumb]

Thx for your imput Nammy and Gweed. Its appreciated.

[Potatohead]

So please try saying it in a less insulting and condescending way. I have no problem with discussion on these points...where I do have a problem is when someone says "frankencoral" or disfigured or you dont know what you are talking about or whatever.

"The point was to mention that the coral has an obvious issue because it was lit by LED lighting, when he was trying to show the opposite."

And what obvious issue would that be please? That coral IS lit by LED and as many have said, it looks healthy to them (and me). I still fail to see the issue you have with my corals. It doesn't look like yours maybe and you dont care for its appearance. I may have the same issue with yours because it looks different than mine...but I do not. And I would never say to anyone what they said to me.

I appreciate all input, but please..be respectful when you voice your opinion. Dont be insulting is all I'm asking...they were both insulting.

I appreciate jda's experience.. but I wish he would appreciate mine as well. And be less condescending.

I don't know how I was being disrespectful, I apologize if it came across that way. I certainly said some things in jest, sure. I didn't say anything like "frankencoral" but someone else could have.

I'm really hoping I remember this thread in 24 months or so... when my acros are growing out of the water and full of colourful polyps all over, all fuelled with some black box leds with the odd upgrade [emoji6]

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

I hope it works out for you man. It's not impossible, just more of a challenge :).

[ComforablyNumb]

Thx, but no need to apologize but I certainly appreciate it. It wasn't you so much..it was the other two.

Ah well..live and learn I suppose..and forget the petty ones with their lame insults. Maybe they were just having a bad day, who knows?

[Stolireef]

Gweeds, good luck and I bet you will have them growing out of the top of your tank. Of course, because they will be under LED's, they will be ugly and leggy (totally kidding here) but if you are part of the 80% simpletons out there, welcome to the club.

[Dugless]

I will use the sample you have posted for comparison, and I will try explaining this one last time. It doesn't take many years of experience to discern which of these corals pictured is healthier. One, has choked polyp extension and dying undersides while the other has uniform polyp extension and color rendition. One has irregular growth with single stem branches reaching in an unnatural way, while the other is branching in a dense and symmetrical fashion. These are all indications of an issue. Growth doesn't always indicate health, when the frame of the coral is chasing it with dead and dying tissue from underneath.

Yes, Acro focused hobbyists are a bit over the top with the particulars. But that is because growing and coloring these corals demands much more dedication and skill. Very few experienced hobbyists voice their opinions within forums anymore. I remember learning so very much in the early days when I signed on to RC, there were so many brilliant reefers to learn from. It's just a shame that when one still does share very useful information, it gets pushed aside for whatever is new and popular.

[ComforablyNumb]

You didn't get the point. Be respectful when you disagree.

This lighting issue is not settled science.. and I will push back on anyone who says so. mH works, t5 works, LED works.

[ComforablyNumb]

has choked polyp extension and dying undersides

Cut it out please. That particular pic was taken about 15 minutes after the lights came on. Of course the polyps are not fully extended.
And as far as the undersides are "dying"..you would not say that if you saw the coral in person, I'm sure.
That lower branch, as I explained before in this thread, was burned by anemone ..but it is gradually recovering.

Please stop making silly assumptions. It is quite annoying.

[ComforablyNumb]

Very few experienced hobbyists voice their opinions within forums anymore. .

Could that be because of people like you perhaps? Slam a new hobbyist or even some older ones.. and they will either shut up or just quit. I won't.

[Dugless]

I'm confused... Nothing I said was disrespectful. You keep calling others out for disrespect, but they're just giving a differing opinion. That is not a respect issue.

[ComforablyNumb]

"Chinese and future proof aren't two things often associated with one another. Good luck with your plans!"
(btw: tell that to Apple who make all their phones there and they seem to last alright)

"The irregular and thin non-branching growth are telling that this stylophora was grown under single point lighting with poor refraction." I did not take that as a compliment, to my coral or my husbandry... altho it was not personally insulting.

"I'm not sure how long it has been since your transition to LEDs, but I would encourage you to reassess your coral health after 6-8 months to see if growth and color are still as good. Most go the route of slowly adding more LED fixtures as they aren't providing enough light."
I should have addressed that at the time you posted it. Its been almost 2yrs since I did the transition. And I DID reassess my corals after 8 months. And I assessed them side by side (mH and kessil) for a couple of months when I first bought one Kessil to try them. They are healthy, growing and thriving. I actually have an extra kessil, but I dont use it because I do not need it. I keep it in the event I am stupid enough to dunk a lit kessil in saltwater as I did once. Yours is an assumption that is clearly incorrect.

"If you want lower cost, LEDs are the worst option of the bunch. This was the marketed story in the beginning, but the argument holds no water now. Most don't even break even with bulb replacement until 5-7 years down the road."
..I still say that is entirely your opinion and not in fact the truth. Go see my example on a previous page where I itemize the cost of both types of lighting over 5 yrs please.

[ComforablyNumb]

As far as the other:

"simpleton statements" <--annoyed someone else, not me.. but I can certainly see why they were annoyed
"You'll go broke buying LEDs before you plug them in.
none of them will perform to the T5 standard" (pffffft)
"Point source lighting cannot hit SPS the way T5 does, fact." (not fact)
"It's pretty clear to anyone with eyes that T5 provides, way, way better coverage and light spread than LED"
"Not trying to be a jerk here, but it's a stylo which isn't difficult, and in the last pic the underside is white, which is kind of proving our/my point." (yawn)
"Oh c'mon, stylos don't count" (yes they do.. to me)
"So are algae, aiptasia and monti eating nudibranchs but that doesn't mean I want them in my reef"
"if you expect people to take you seriously"
"a stylo with a dead LPS skeleton behind it"
"You can see the undersides of those branches are bone"
"the coral has an obvious issue because it was lit by LED lighting"
"frankencorals"

What most folks prefer:
"I may go back to LED at some point but I can't see doing that for a long time because I've been there and done that. You may feel the opposite and that is fine too."

And this is all in ONE THREAD!

[Potatohead]

Just let it go man, you're just being defensive at this point. If you are happy with your tank that is all that matters.

[ComforablyNumb]

Just let it go man, you're just being defensive at this point.

lol..he asked me. Should I have not answered? And why the characterization of being defensive?

I spent 25 yrs as a marketing exec for a Fortune 100 company..I can easily recognise underhanded swipes when I see them. One thing I learned in all those years of direct professional experience..words matter.

[Bronx19]

You seem to have great issue with my statement that point source light cant hit undersides of acros. How does light change direction from downward to sideways?

We've grown acro under LED, we've seen the dark spots in tanks under LED. Its very simple. Watch a few BRS lighting videos.

[ComforablyNumb]

You seem to have great issue with my statement that point source light cant hit undersides of acros. How does light change direction from downward to sideways?


The same way it does with mH, t5 and LED. Refraction off the glass, reflection off the bottom and surrounding areas. I have two kessils, they overlap in coverage somewhat and many of my corals get light from the other at a different angle.
Does it provide compete light underneath corals..of course not. I dont think the others do either..but I am open to being corrected.

[ComforablyNumb]

Watch a few BRS lighting videos.
I have..and I learned another thing from my marketing days. People tend to promote what they have in stock or what they make the most money from. I sold tens of millions of dollars worth of things to retail to great business people who would re-sell our goods to consumers just like the good folks at BRS do. So I am quite aware of the motivations of retailers. Advice tends to mirror inventory. The best is always what they own.

edit - I will even tell you who I worked for...Levi Strauss & Co.
Yes, blue jeans and Dockers paid my mortgage and also helped fund my various hobbies and interests.

[Fredfish]

I will use the sample you have posted for comparison, and I will try explaining this one last time. It doesn't take many years of experience to discern which of these corals pictured is healthier...
Shape and colour have absolutely nothing to do with the health of a coral. You are confusing a community preference with health.

[Stolireef]

The same way it does with mH, t5 and LED. Refraction off the glass, reflection off the bottom and surrounding areas. I have two kessils, they overlap in coverage somewhat and many of my corals get light from the other at a different angle.
Does it provide compete light underneath corals..of course not. I dont think the others do either..but I am open to being corrected.

Yep. I decided to do some research on this. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a single scientific study on light refraction/reflection in an aquarium. So, if I can borrow a PAR meter (and I can), I'm going to my friend's house who uses old school AI SOLs to light his tank with very mature colonies in areas that are 'shaded'. I'm then going to another friends house who lights his tank with MH and T5 (and also has very mature colonies) and try the same experiment. Let's see if the point source argument holds up. I can't control for the different sized tanks or for the infinite variety of coral shapes, but at least we can start to examine the problem from a more scientific perspective.

My hypothesis is that the MH/T5 system will show slightly better lighting in shaded areas but that the T5 will be the primary culprit rather than the MH. We'll be able to identify this by measuring par with each light. I'd love to do this using controls but unfortunately, every reef tank is a unique environment.

One other thing...I've found that the growth habits of SPS are more influenced by flow than light. SPS will grow thicker and more proportional (wrong word but I'm tired) if flow is extremely strong and very random.

[Stolireef]

edit - I will even tell you who I worked for...Levi Strauss & Co.
Yes, blue jeans and Dockers paid my mortgage and also helped fund my various hobbies and interests.

And, as a long time Levi's wearer, nothing's better than the original button fly. Unfortunately, they've started selling much thinner denim that doesn't hold up nearly as well. I remember dragging my jeans behind my bike to break them in.

[Bronx19]

The same way it does with mH, t5 and LED. Refraction off the glass, reflection off the bottom and surrounding areas

It does not work the same way at all, and if you had a completely bare tank you might get some refraction but with rock work, sand bottom and film algae you will get bugger all. You only need compare the coverage area of T5 and LED.

[Bronx19]

Yep. I decided to do some research on this. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a single scientific study on light refraction/reflection in an aquarium. So, if I can borrow a PAR meter (and I can), I'm going to my friend's house who uses old school AI SOLs to light his tank with very mature colonies in areas that are 'shaded'. I'm then going to another friends house who lights his tank with MH and T5 (and also has very mature colonies) and try the same experiment. Let's see if the point source argument holds up. I can't control for the different sized tanks or for the infinite variety of coral shapes, but at least we can start to examine the problem from a more scientific perspective.

My hypothesis is that the MH/T5 system will show slightly better lighting in shaded areas but that the T5 will be the primary culprit rather than the MH. We'll be able to identify this by measuring par with each light. I'd love to do this using controls but unfortunately, every reef tank is a unique environment.
.

Its all been done for you, BRS have done and are currently taking a comprehensive look at this very topic. LED burns hot in the middle and drops rapidly to the side.

All the pros of T5, from Ryan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C61DTnWKGjc&t=902s

[Fredfish]

The same way it does with mH, t5 and LED. Refraction off the glass, reflection off the bottom and surrounding areas. I have two kessils, they overlap in coverage somewhat and many of my corals get light from the other at a different angle.
Does it provide compete light underneath corals..of course not. I dont think the others do either..but I am open to being corrected.
Refraction and LEDs are an interesting thing. I've seen tanks lit by Radions that showed no polyp growth on the underside and some that do. I don't know what the differences between tanks with similar setups are, but there can be a large difference.

In general, you need to work harder with clustered LED setups like Kessil or Radions then you do with Lights like the Reefbreeders where the LEDs are more evenly distributed over a larger area. T5 tubes are the king of distributed light, but I absolutely hate that flat look.

Disco is another disadvantage, but I don't seem to be very sensitive to the colour separation you can get with LEDs.

People tend to love what they love and hate everything else. Remember Chevy vs Ford vs Chrysler in the good old days?

These sorts of 'discussions' go on with every lighting transition. I can remember people raving about how they could actually get corals to grow under industrial HID lighting, and when Iwasaki 65 Ks were king of the hill and everything else was Bantha Poodoo. :)

Things change. Some people don't like that.

[ComforablyNumb]

And, as a long time Levi's wearer, nothing's better than the original button fly. Unfortunately, they've started selling much thinner denim that doesn't hold up nearly as well. I remember dragging my jeans behind my bike to break them in.

lol..I hear stories like that quite often. And I still love to hear them. Jean jackets used to tow cars, etc. Levi's chose to abandon all N.American production about 8 yrs ago, not long before I left. They closed 33 manufacturing/distribution facilities in the US and 4 in Canada. 22,000 good employees were laid off and the same number of families suffered. And Trump isn't bringing those jobs home. lol..wish he could but its impossible. I dont know who believed that, but anyway...I held on for another couple of yrs, but I had done well and was ready to retire at age 55. We were proud to print on our labels "Union made with pride in the USA" or Canada.
They can no longer say that and it put a BIG crimp into our marketing which I did..because we had always marketed our product as an American icon.



Quite sad what happened to whole industry actually. But whatcha gonna do?
I still wear dockers and 501's exclusively but it irks me to look at the label now where they say now Made in Bangladesh or India.

EDIT..but its the same from Apple to Kessil. American design, made overseas.

[Fredfish]

It does not work the same way at all, and if you had a completely bare tank you might get some refraction but with rock work, sand bottom and film algae you will get bugger all. You only need compare the coverage area of T5 and LED.
You are correct, T5 generate light in more directions than LEDs, but that is only part of the story.

FWIW, the sun is a point source of light, but you get quite a bit of diffraction in the ocean. MH is also a point source.

With LEDs lenses and how LEDs are clustered have a large effect on how much diffraction you get. Blanket statements regarding LEDs are not of much value.

[Dugless]

Shape and colour have absolutely nothing to do with the health of a coral. You are confusing a community preference with health.

I disagree with you here. While I agree that flow impacts structural growth as much as lighting, shape and color are most definitely indicative of health. If not assessing these things, how does one perceive a healthy coral?

[Dugless]

Cut it out please. That particular pic was taken about 15 minutes after the lights came on. Of course the polyps are not fully extended.

In my experience, most SPS coral have greater polyp extension in the darker hours. In some cases, nearly twice as much.

[Dugless]

FWIW, the sun is a point source of light, but you get quite a bit of diffraction in the ocean. MH is also a point source.

The earth is constantly rotating allowing the single point source to become something much different.

[ComforablyNumb]

Its all been done for you, BRS have...[/url]

Please be aware what I said above. Advice tends to mirror inventory. The best is always what they own. Are they lying? No, of course not..but if they make more money from one category, THATS the one they push. Its rather easy to spin anything in marketing...and when talking about reef lighting.

This is not settled science and the growth in tech for LEDs is leaps and bounds more exciting than mH and t5. And as the volumes for LEDS increase in all businesses, you should see lower per unit costs going forward. T5 and mH, not so much. Lower and lower volumes, minor adjustments, reflectors, new color bulbs, etc.

Edit..but you will always be stuck with the drawbacks. Bulb changes, excessive heat, triple the electrical costs etc...LED's are not perfect, no lighting system is.

[ComforablyNumb]

The earth is constantly rotating allowing the single point source to become something much different.

Is mH single point source constantly moving across your tank? I can program my leds to increase light intensity from left to right during the day between two sources if that is important. Nevermind..I am tired. I will be back tomorrow.

[jayball]

I disagree with you here. While I agree that flow impacts structural growth as much as lighting, shape and color are most definitely indicative of health. If not assessing these things, how does one perceive a healthy coral?



I would argue that flow plays a larger part in growth form than lighting. (And the pic that started this s-fest came from a LPS heavy tank as he said lower flow). I have taken spindly bird nest mini colony's from low flow and moved them to high flow and in 2 weeks they fill out with multiple growth tips per branch. Same lighting, and similar positioning In relation to the light. (Aside, if you do this do not move it back to the lower flow. It will start dying in short order).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fredfish]

I disagree with you here. While I agree that flow impacts structural growth as much as lighting, shape and color are most definitely indicative of health. If not assessing these things, how does one perceive a healthy coral?
Can you provide a research paper that corroborates your opinion?

Smart guys like Veron have determined that flow is the main determinant in coral structure. Maybe there is more recent research that supersedes this, but I have not seen this.

Most of the research I've read on coral colouration points to colour expression as a way for a coral to shed unwanted light energy to avoid photo inhibition. Again, if there is something recent that contradicts this, I'd love to read it.

[Fredfish]

The earth is constantly rotating allowing the single point source to become something much different.
That is one part of it, but there is also lots of diffraction going on in the atmosphere, at the water's surface, as well as reflection off of sandy bottoms (where those exist).

The point is that how light bounces around depends on a number of things.

I'm not arguing that it is not an issue to mitigate, depending on what sort of look you want, but even with LEDs there are things you can do.

[Fredfish]

... If not assessing these things, how does one perceive a healthy coral?
That is a good question, but I don't think we have a good answer yet, at least not at the hobby level.

[Punchanello]

This has been...um...educational. I love a good internet scrag.

I'm mulling over my options like Gweeds so my observations are as a rank novice.

I see very, very few Australian reefers opting for anything but LED. Firstly, the ongoing cost of electricity. It has doubled in the past year and Australia is hot and getting hotter for longer every year. I live in a "temperate" region but we get 40c (107 F) degree days from December to March with average temperatures in the mid to high 30s. High heat producing units hit us twice in power consumption. Also, houses generally aren't that big so hood and large T5 or MH units take up too much space and LED pendants are more popular. Also, the Great Barrier Reef is dying on our doorstep with 2/3rds of it thoroughly beached and we all feel kind of guilty about that and don't want to fuels emissions with our tanks.

My point with all that is that there are factors beyond those usually discussed when comparing lighting. What I see is that most Australian reefers are willing to trade off some of the benefits of MH and T5 in favour of LED for the reasons I mention above.

[Bronx19]

Please be aware what I said above. Advice tends to mirror inventory. The best is always what they own. Are they lying? No, of course not..but if they make more money from one category, THATS the one they push. Its rather easy to spin anything in marketing...and when talking about reef lighting.

This is not settled science and the growth in tech for LEDs is leaps and bounds more exciting than mH and t5. And as the volumes for LEDS increase in all businesses, you should see lower per unit costs going forward. T5 and mH, not so much. Lower and lower volumes, minor adjustments, reflectors, new color bulbs, etc.

There is no conspiracy at BRS, what they say is proven and works. LED will not and has not come down in price. Every iteration of the major brands is the the same or more expensive than the product it replaces. The Radion G5 will be the same price as the G4 before it. THEY are out to make money.

Of course T5 wont drop in price its mature technology, the adjustments have been made, the reflectors near perfection, the bulbs are made to each grow coral on their own. You're looking at these technologies as if they were both released yesterday. You are right about LED being exciting, thats what sells them, they appeal to tech craving reefers. But there is a big price to pay for that. Remember our conversation about price over time? You need to keep that LED for 5 years before it breaks even. There is no point buying new LED units for the thrill and using efficiency as the motivator.

LED has nowhere to go from lenses and spheres. Its just an LED, a diode that emits light. You cannot make it what it isn't. They've put a lens on it, they've put it inside a sphere, they've put it inside a tube, they've bolted wings onto the sides with more LEDs pointing in the direction a T5 bulbs would shoot light (Maxspect).

T5 has grown more coral than LED has. We know it covers the entire tank from many angles without creating hot spots. LED cannot do that and masses of reefers are now adding T5 to their units to try and compensate. Hell, they've even come up with LEDs in a tube (E5) to try and mimic T5!

[Bronx19]

This has been...um...educational. I love a good internet scrag.

I'm mulling over my options like Gweeds so my observations are as a rank novice.

I see very, very few Australian reefers opting for anything but LED. Firstly, the ongoing cost of electricity. It has doubled in the past year and Australia is hot and getting hotter for longer every year. I live in a "temperate" region but we get 40c (107 F) degree days from December to March with average temperatures in the mid to high 30s. High heat producing units hit us twice in power consumption. Also, houses generally aren't that big so hood and large T5 or MH units take up too much space and LED pendants are more popular. Also, the Great Barrier Reef is dying on our doorstep with 2/3rds of it thoroughly beached and we all feel kind of guilty about that and don't want to fuels emissions with our tanks.

My point with all that is that there are factors beyond those usually discussed when comparing lighting. What I see is that most Australian reefers are willing to trade off some of the benefits of MH and T5 in favour of LED for the reasons I mention above.

I happen to be Aussie. There are no power savings with LED, its a couple of dollars a quarter. For a very long time LED manufacturers pushed power efficiency as the trump card, but its never been realized in practice. If you have a tank that requires 120W over it, that's just what is needs, regardless if its T5 or LED producing it.

The exhaust from my ATI unit sits at 35C, I guess its heating in winter and not much an issue if its 40C ambient in summer.

Most new reefers buy LED because as the previous poster mentioned, they're cool and trendy. A little puck of lights that shimmer, it looks good. But then you have page after page of what spectrum, intensity, height, acclimation do I do/use.

Then there is the price we pay for these. Its a joke. We were up to almost $1300 at launch for a G4 Pro. I got my ATI for $600 shipped from Germany.

[karimwassef]

The price of LEDs has nothing to do with the cost of LEDs. They're profit driven.

There's tremendous potential for LEDs to truly be cost effective alternatives, but that won't happen as long as consumers are willing to pay $3000 to light up their tanks. It's just too tempting for the manufacturers.

The technology is willing, but the hunger for profit is weak. :D

[ComforablyNumb]

There is no conspiracy at BRS, what they say is proven and works.

I'm sorry, did I say there was? What I said was..everyone can be biased if they so chose. Anyone with a commercial interest in pushing something out the door has a vested interest in pushing things out the door. Is BRS immune to this corporate pressures? I have no idea. What is really required for true judgement is scientific examination when no one involved has a commercial interest in the outcome.

LED will not and has not come down in price.
I would tend to disagree. LED's have indeed come down in price, you get many more lumens per dollar than before. You also get programmability. They is a very good reason most municipalities in Canada, and I would assume the US, have switched all street lights to LED. 10 yrs ago, the price was prohibitive..but efficiencies improved, the prices came down, as did payback time (return on investment)..dramatically.

Every iteration of the major brands is the the same or more expensive than the product it replaces.
And they also almost always have significant improvements in various things.

You are right about LED being exciting, thats what sells them, they appeal to tech craving reefers. But there is a big price to pay for that. Remember our conversation about price over time? You need to keep that LED for 5 years before it breaks even.

Actually if you look at my example, the payback happens before 5 yrs. The led cost was $800, the mH cost +4 yrs bulbs was well over $1,100. Plus the electricity and cooling savings which I did not even factor in.

LED has nowhere to go from lenses and spheres.
You say that with more confidence than I would. I have no idea what kind of new efficiencies and engineering will be found with leds in the near future. But I do know what has happened in the recent past. The major innovations and all the growth is coming from LED tech, not the others.

T5 has grown more coral than LED has.
There is no arguing that ..but that would be because its been around for much longer than leds. I would argue that leds will soon, if not already, will be growing more coral than mH and t5 combined. We'll see.

We know it covers the entire tank from many angles without creating hot spots.
LEDs have effective wide angle (or narrow angle) lens that work quite well. They strongly disperse across a fairly wide angle now. Or you can chose to focus them by purchasing a narrow angle lens model. You have a choice.


Hell, they've even come up with LEDs in a tube (E5) to try and mimic T5!
Thats exactly the type of thing I was referring to when I said the innovations will mostly come led advancements, not mH or t5.

Good discussion and no one has called anyone a commie here lately. Refreshing.

[ComforablyNumb]

If you have a tank that requires 120W over it, that's just what is needs, regardless if its T5 or LED producing it.

You seem to be disregarding fact. Fact is, quality leds now produce 2.5 - 3.5 times as many output lumens per input watt than most other sources like mH.

Most new reefers buy LED because as the previous poster mentioned, they're cool and trendy. A little puck of lights that shimmer, it looks good.
And they also work well, take up less space, heat up your environment less and cost less to run over 5 yrs.

Then there is the price we pay for these. Its a joke. We were up to almost $1300 at launch for a G4 Pro. I got my ATI for $600 shipped from Germany.
Interesting. Currently the retail price of EcoTech Marine Radion™ XR30W G4 Pro LED Light Fixture is listed on Fosters for $799. ( http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=34572 ) Free shipping. And $725 on ebay. (https://www.amazon.com/Generation-Ecotech-Marine-Radion-VERSION/dp/B01IEA9HWY) $4.49 shipping.

And didn't you say the price of leds would never come down?

[Bronx19]

At no point am I referring to MH BTW, they are not an option.

[ComforablyNumb]

And didn't you say the price of leds would never come down?

[Bronx19]

And didn't you say the price of leds would never come down?

Correct. Top spec Radion/Hydra will always be its current price and will only increase with inflation. There is no reason to pass any savings onto you, if there are any. LEDs aren't new, I'm not sure where you think any savings will be made.

Also, for anyone thinking of buying Chinese LED, you don't save any power by turning them down, they use 1-10v dimming not PWM, you only increase resistance which uses the same power.

[Ron Reefman]

Bronx19, please stop comparing everything t5 to the very highest priced led fixtures. That's just BS. A $100 Mars Aqua will light a tank just as good as an $800 Radion. The light isn't different, the optional features for human control is all that's different. And inexpensive t5's don't have most of those high end led benefits. So you are comparing a basic light to a basic light that comes with lots of expensive options. Get serious.

You really need to take a bit more critical look at the BRS video about t5 vs led for light spread. First thing about the BRS video is the t5 is way longer than the led, and the led is a Radion. I know it's thought of as the pinnacle of the led fixtures (which isn't true) and it has 2 small pucks for light right in the middle of the tank. For half the price of the Radion led I could have a 32" led fixture with an array of 100 Cree 3w and 5w leds that are laid out over a 30" x 7" area with 90 degree lenses. The light from that fixture will hit the glass a reflect in way better than the Radion. And if you want more to reflect off the glass, take off the 90 degree lenses and at 120 degrees you'll get lots of spread. Maybe not quite as much as the t5, but WAY more than the Radion. And don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying leds throw light around like t5's. They just don't. But get off your high horse and quit being such a homer for t5. The fact that leds have a couple short comings is way less important to a lot of people than the list of advantages leds have over t5's.

I'd love to see BRS do the same test using what I think is a better led fixture. One that has the leds in an array rather than one using a puck or two.

I'll offer you a challenge. List all the benefits t5's have over leds and then list all the benefits that leds have over t5's. Then allow 10 people to see the lists and I'd wager 7 out of 10 will pick the leds.

[Bronx19]

Bronx19, please stop comparing everything t5 to the very highest priced led fixtures. That's just BS. A $100 Mars Aqua will light a tank just as good as an $800 Radion. The light isn't different, the optional features for human control is all that's different. And inexpensive t5's don't have most of those high end led benefits. So you are comparing a basic light to a basic light that comes with lots of expensive options. Get serious.

You really need to take a bit more critical look at the BRS video about t5 vs led for light spread. First thing about the BRS video is the t5 is way longer than the led, and the led is a Radion. I know it's thought of as the pinnacle of the led fixtures (which isn't true) and it has 2 small pucks for light right in the middle of the tank. For half the price of the Radion led I could have a 32" led fixture with an array of 100 Cree 3w and 5w leds that are laid out over a 30" x 7" area with 90 degree lenses. The light from that fixture will hit the glass a reflect in way better than the Radion. And if you want more to reflect off the glass, take off the 90 degree lenses and at 120 degrees you'll get lots of spread. Maybe not quite as much as the t5, but WAY more than the Radion. And don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying leds throw light around like t5's. They just don't. But get off your high horse and quit being such a homer for t5. The fact that leds have a couple short comings is way less important to a lot of people than the list of advantages leds have over t5's.

I'd love to see BRS do the same test using what I think is a better led fixture. One that has the leds in an array rather than one using a puck or two.

I'll offer you a challenge. List all the benefits t5's have over leds and then list all the benefits that leds have over t5's. Then allow 10 people to see the lists and I'd wager 7 out of 10 will pick the leds.

We're comparing high end T5 to high end LED. I have not compared the ATI to a Chinese LED for good reason. I could simply compare Marsaqua, Ocean Revive to some $50 T5 unit with crap parts. Like for like in the market place.

$100 Marsaqua is equivalent to a Radion? I'll let the Radion boys handle that fight.

I'm glad you know T5 spread is superior to LED, that is all I have been trying to convince Comfor of. He is not a believer, but prefers to bounce light off glass.

T5:
Covers whole tank.
No hot spots.
Plug and play.
Cheap start up.
SPS colouration and growth.

LED:
Dusk/Dawn effects.
Weather effects.
Shimmer.
No bulbs to change.
Small form factor.

[Ron Reefman]

T5:
Covers whole tank. (Drop from the list. So do leds if you do it right, so that's BS)
No hot spots. (Half true. Puck leds do hot spot, I'll give you that, HOWEVER array leds don't if done right)
Plug and play. (Yeah, and setting up leds takes a PhD, pretty simple)
Cheap start up. (Tell me what 2 fixtures you want to compare? I may agree, but I doubt it)
SPS colouration and growth. (Almost total BS! If you want to talk about the undersides and insides of branching sps colonies... yes, t5's do better. Over all, dead wrong on growth and totally subjective on color)
Less shadows under rock and coral ledges and overhangs (one you missed... see, I can be fair minded)

LED:
Dusk/Dawn effects. (nice effect if you want it, but does nothing for the coral)
Weather effects. (who cares really! I won't even have added this)
Shimmer.
No bulbs to change. OR PAY FOR!!!
Small form factor. (only if you are looking at leds with pucks. The fixtures with led arrays are big and cover tanks ALMOST as well as a t5)

And I'd add in:
Total control of intensity
Total control of color shades of warm white to cool white with the twist of a knob rather than experimenting with buying even more bulbs! And superb all blue for viewing fluorescence.
Run cooler (small advantage over t5, huge ove MH... but we aren't comparing with them)

[jayball]

Also, for anyone thinking of buying Chinese LED, you don't save any power by turning them down, they use 1-10v dimming not PWM, you only increase resistance which uses the same power.

This is incorrect, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how LED drivers work. In addition to the fact that it is easily demonstrated with something as simple as a kill-o-watt meter I would challenge you to find something inside the box that could dissipate that kind of power

[Potatohead]

I'd love to see BRS do the same test using what I think is a better led fixture. One that has the leds in an array rather than one using a puck or two.



They have. They tested the Philips CoralCare, which price aside is considered possibly the best LED reef light on the market. They found it actually uses 10% more power than the comparable 24x8 Sunpower, and puts out about 5% less par (and they didn't use the highest par bulbs either). They later tested it with the diffuser screen off and found par increased but light spread was not nearly as good.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/P3buToJrfX4?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[ComforablyNumb]

Bronx: We were up to almost $1300 at launch for a G4 Pro.
Me: Currently the retail price of EcoTech Marine Radion™ XR30W G4 Pro is listed on Fosters for $799.
Bronx: The price of leds will never come down

What is going on here? Is math different in the US? ;)

[Potatohead]

G4 Pro was never $1300, I'm not sure if that was a typo or something on his part. EcoTech has very strict MAP pricing and the stuff is virtually the same price anywhere with a couple 10% off sales once or twice a year.

[Ron Reefman]

They have. They tested the Philips CoralCare, which price aside is considered possibly the best LED reef light on the market. They found it actually uses 10% more power than the comparable 24x8 Sunpower, and puts out about 5% less par (and they didn't use the highest par bulbs either). They later tested it with the diffuser screen off and found par increased but light spread was not nearly as good.

Sorry, but I have not a single bone in my body that thinks the Philips fixture is anything special other than the ridiculous price! Just what makes it so special other than Philips saying it's so?:headwally:

And why is it if the t5 puts out more PAR than the led, the led gets run at partial power to avoid coral damage and all t5's are simply plug & play? If it can't out PAR a t5 it's lame. I still challenge BRS to use a good quality high end Chinese array fixture like a 32" Photon V2. Reasonably priced, great PAR, good coverage and lots of control.

[Potatohead]

Sorry, but I have not a single bone in my body that thinks the Philips fixture is anything special other than the ridiculous price! Just what makes it so special other than Philips saying it's so?:headwally:


You can believe whatever you want to believe. Philips has been in business for 120 years and is the largest lighting manufacturer in the world. No other LED built to this point has the same kind of spread* as this does. You asked for a light without clusters and a wider surface area to be tested - It has, and you can't genuinely believe Chinese black boxes are better than the PCC.


And why is it if the t5 puts out more PAR than the led, the led gets run at partial power to avoid coral damage and all t5's are simply plug & play?

Hot spots. It is not about overall PAR, anybody can make a light with 2000 par in one square inch. You also do not want 200 par, then 300 par three inches over, then 150 par another three inches over, and this is where T5 absolutely rules the roost.


*When I refer to spread, I am talking about even light distribution throughout the footprint of the tank. I'm not referring to the actual cast footprint of the light.

[Dugless]

Let's not forget that brightness isn't the only measure of a capable light source. LEDs lean heavily on 'blending' different points of light to create a their spectrum. This is a big drawback for LEDs, the delivered spectrum is different everywhere in the tank! Even with hundreds of lights, there will be spots heavy in blue or lacking red, etc. The thought is that there is more control with adjustments and fancy settings, but the resulting light is highly variable in comparison.

I also think it's unfair to mention LEDs in street lights and buildings. This is a totally different game and has nothing to do with reef capable lighting.

[ComforablyNumb]

"EcoTech has very strict MAP pricing"

That maintains a MINIMUM price, not maximum. It has still fallen in price substantially from when first introduced.
btw: why MAP is still legal in the US, I have no idea. I think a couple of states outlawed it, but dont quote me on that.

[ComforablyNumb]

"This is a big drawback for LEDs, the delivered spectrum is different everywhere in the tank!"

That makes little sense to me. The light gets scattered everywhere. Especially with a kessil tightly pack led cluster and wide angle lens.

[ComforablyNumb]

I also think it's unfair to mention LEDs in street lights and buildings. This is a totally different game and has nothing to do with reef capable lighting.
Have to disagree here as well. LED advancements in design and engineering are soon usually copied by all manufacturers. All thats different for our application is the color of the diodes used. No?

[Potatohead]

Let's not forget that brightness isn't the only measure of a capable light source. LEDs lean heavily on 'blending' different points of light to create a their spectrum. This is a big drawback for LEDs, the delivered spectrum is different everywhere in the tank! Even with hundreds of lights, there will be spots heavy in blue or lacking red, etc. The thought is that there is more control with adjustments and fancy settings, but the resulting light is highly variable in comparison.

I also think it's unfair to mention LEDs in street lights and buildings. This is a totally different game and has nothing to do with reef capable lighting.

This is a great point. The spectrum shift in some of BRS's testing is yuge!

"EcoTech has very strict MAP pricing"

That maintains a MINIMUM price, not maximum. It has still fallen in price substantially from when first introduced.


You don't say? I wonder what the 'm' stands for?

The lights were not $1300 when they debuted, not even close. Ecotech is not in the business of lowering prices of their latest and greatest products. You being the marketing guy you are, will understand that. In fact, here's a link from reef builders (fill it in) from April 2016 that shows MSRP of $799.

https://************.com/2016/08/15/radion-g4-pro-led/

[Editour2]

following......

[Bronx19]

Bronx: We were up to almost $1300 at launch for a G4 Pro.
Me: Currently the retail price of EcoTech Marine Radion™ XR30W G4 Pro is listed on Fosters for $799.
Bronx: The price of leds will never come down

What is going on here? Is math different in the US? ;)

You missed the first few words, 'I'm an Aussie". They cost A$1200 right now. And I've also done the original comparison in pounds given the OP is using pounds.

$US

2011- Radion XR30w G1 - $749

2012 - Radion XR30w G2 - $549
2012 - Radion XR30w Pro G2 - $649

2014 - Radion XR30w G3 - $649
2014 - Radion XR30w Pro G3 - $749

2016 - Radion XR30w G4 - $649
2016 - Radion XR30w Pro G4 - $799

2018 - Take a guess.

Ron,

There is thread after thread, some a hundred pages long about which settings to use on your LED unit.
I'm spitting the facts, T5 is plug and play, all you change is the hanging height. You need to know how high, which intensity and which spectrum to get LED right, they require more fiddling and more community support.

I agree completely that weather effects ect are useless, but people buy what humans like to look at, not what grows coral. T5 is all about growing coral, no gimmicks.

I'm not sure you actually disagree with me on any of the topics I listed. I say T5 is superior at coverage, lighting branches, installation, ect, and you tell me 'yeah, a little bit, but so what'.

As soon as you're tank is too long/wide for one LED unit, economically the technology is screwed. Its a hundred bucks to go to a longer T5 fixture but its a fortune for another LED unit.

[ComforablyNumb]

You don't say? I wonder what the 'm' stands for?
It stands what I said it stands for: "Minimum Advertised Pricing (or MAP, as it is more commonly referred) is the lowest price a retailer can advertise the product for sale."

The lights were not $1300 when they debuted, not even close. Ecotech is not in the business of lowering prices
heh heh you better tell that to Bronx..and he said nothing about Aussie dollars. If it was, it was left out intentionally to mislead I'm rather certain.



You being the marketing guy you are, will understand that. In fact, here's a link from reef builders (fill it in) from April 2016 that shows MSRP of $799.
So why did Bronx say it was $1300? It was used to mislead. If I was to come on here and starting quoting Cdn prices (which are 25% higher than US ones) without saying it was actually $1300Cdn..what would you think I would be trying to do with you?
Mislead you perhaps?

[Dugless]

Sorry, but I have not a single bone in my body that thinks the Philips fixture is anything special other than the ridiculous price! Just what makes it so special other than Philips saying it's so?:headwally:

I still challenge BRS to use a good quality high end Chinese array fixture like a 32" Photon V2. Reasonably priced, great PAR, good coverage and lots of control.

The Phillips light has been very popular with the European market because it is currently the best solution at overcoming the shortfalls with LEDs. It offers the best solution at diffusing and mixing lights, the biggest hurdles that still challenge LEDs. I wouldn't discount the progress they've made just because you've had success with your Chinese fixtures.

[Bronx19]

heh heh you better tell that to Bronx..and he said nothing about Aussie dollars. If it was, it was left out intentionally to mislead I'm rather certain.
So why did Bronx say it was $1300? It was used to mislead. If I was to come on here and starting quoting Cdn prices (which are 25% higher than US ones) without saying it was actually $1300Cdn..what would you think I would be trying to do with you?
Mislead you perhaps?

You need to read my replies again.

This has been...um...educational. I love a good internet scrag.

I'm mulling over my options like Gweeds so my observations are as a rank novice.

I see very, very few Australian reefers opting for anything but LED.

I clearly replied to an Australian, as an Australian, in Australian dollars. You think I'm going to type US$1300 on this forum and say its so?

I happen to be Aussie. Then there is the price we pay for these. Its a joke. We were up to almost $1300 at launch for a G4 Pro.

Not only that, but I have made the T5/LED comparison in the OPs native currency (pound), in A$ for us Aussies and listed the launch prices of all Radions in US$. In summary:

ATI T5 - A$630
Radion G4 Pro - A$1200 (now)

ATI T5 - £430
Radion G4 Pro - £700 (now)

ATI T5 - US$450
Radion G4 Pro - US$800 (now)

You buy one LED unit, its 3 years to break even.
You buy two LED units, its a decade.

[Stolireef]

Gweeds, Congrats on creating a monster thread:celeb2:

So, to sum up the last 180 or so posts...in someone's opinion...
MH Good
T5 Good
LED Good
Combos maybe better

If you like your light, you can keep your light.
If you don't like your light, you can buy a different light.

SPS are hard but not stylos, pocis, or seriatapora.

I think I should write haiku. :hmm4:

I like being a simpleton.:deadhorse:

[Bronx19]

Gweeds, Congrats on creating a monster thread:celeb2:

So, to sum up the last 180 or so posts...in someone's opinion...
MH Good
T5 Good
LED Good
Combos maybe better


Combo best
T5 excellent
LED good

[Potatohead]

It stands what I said it stands for: "Minimum Advertised Pricing (or MAP, as it is more commonly referred) is the lowest price a retailer can advertise the product for sale

No kidding. I was being facetious. You're not the only one here who works in sales and marketing.

heh heh you better tell that to Bronx..and he said nothing about Aussie dollars. If it was, it was left out intentionally to mislead I'm rather certain.

So why did Bronx say it was $1300? It was used to mislead. If I was to come on here and starting quoting Cdn prices (which are 25% higher than US ones) without saying it was actually $1300Cdn..what would you think I would be trying to do with you?
Mislead you perhaps?

What? Can you provide any logical reason why Bronx, who is arguing that LED prices are not going to come down, would suggest the prices a year ago were nearly double they are today? Does that make any sense?

[ComforablyNumb]

I clearly replied to an Australian, as an Australian, in Australian dollars.
I'll concede the first two parts, but I would not necessarily be aware you were speaking in aus dollars. And I was not. And neither was Potatohead: "I'm not sure if that was a typo or something on his part.

[Stolireef]

Oh, and I have to add that Ecotech products are expensive (so are GHL). Chinese black boxes are cheap and you have to replace MH and T5 bulbs once in a while.

Where's PaulB when I need comic relief.

Hey you kids, get off my lawn.

[ComforablyNumb]

I like being a simpleton.:deadhorse:

Yes, me too apparently.
I hope thats the last instance of the name-calling nonsense we see...in this thread. I've pretty well had enough of the thread anyway..didn't learn a thing. altho it was fun and quite entertaining I must say.

Cheers to all who spoke..whether you thought you were right or wrong. Its not settled science by any means..leds continue to advance in both popularity and innovation. mH/led/t5 all work well for corals. What you own is the best, most effective and cheapest.

Frankencoral: It'll be like all those designer-named zoa's everyone pays 5 times as much for lol
http://i.imgur.com/TitZyfd.jpg

[Potatohead]

I'll concede the first two parts, but I would not necessarily be aware you were speaking in aus dollars. And I was not. And neither was Potatohead: "I'm not sure if that was a typo or something on his part.

I was pretty darn certain he was in Australia, I even posted it this morning but then edited that post (post 182) shortly afterwards because I went back to double check and he didn't have a location listed and then I thought maybe I confused him with Punchanello.

[Stolireef]

Oh, and the darn Aussies. What a bunch of former criminals. :) I kill me. I'm trying not to troll but this is getting funny.

[Bronx19]

Absolutely Chinese boxes are cheap, but lets not kid ourselves, reefers want the premium gear and will pay for it. That is why the long term financial savings of LED aren't realized, most people who have the disposable cash will upgrade their G2 to a G4.

[ComforablyNumb]

You're not the only one here who works in sales and marketing.

So why is MAP still legal in the US? (without googling it pls..like thats going to happen)
Its a debate in marketing everywhere, so you should know the answer off the top of your head without looking.

[ComforablyNumb]

Absolutely Chinese boxes are cheap, but lets not kid ourselves, reefers want the premium gear and will pay for it.
Apple chinese made iPhones go for a premium. To each his own on that topic. Once again, blanket statements do not apply. My local retailer uses kessil/g4 knockoffs, I asked and he had no complaints.

[Potatohead]

So why is MAP still legal in the US?

I'm not quite sure why you think it should be illegal. Some brands do not want a race to the bottom with their stuff, Apple probably being the prime example.

[Bronx19]

Apple chinese made iPhones go for a premium. To each his own on that topic. Once again, blanket statements do not apply. My local retailer uses kessil/g4 knockoffs, I asked and he had no complaints.

Everything is made in China, perhaps assembled in its home country. This doesn't negate my statement that reefers want the name brand premium gear. No one says, oh gee I wish I could get a Jebao. They want AI, Ecotech, Maxspect, ATI.

[ComforablyNumb]

And dont bother answer my MAP question..with google its moot anyway.

Bye all.

[ComforablyNumb]

Everything is made in China, perhaps assembled in its home country. This doesn't negate my statement that reefers want the name brand premium gear. No one says, oh gee I wish I could get a Jebao. They want AI, Ecotech, Maxspect, ATI.
I dont care what you say, many folks think the chinese boxes are a better value. Retailers too. Anyway..lets this fade out, why dont we?

[Dugless]

Apple chinese made iPhones go for a premium. To each his own on that topic. Once again, blanket statements do not apply. My local retailer uses kessil/g4 knockoffs, I asked and he had no complaints.

Apple products might be made in China, to be honest I don't know. But let's not kid ourselves that they are junk. To me the engineering and sourcing of quality parts are where it counts. I've owned Chinese pumps and they were lucky to last 2-3 yrs, whereas my German pumps are going on 8-10 yrs and look brand new. In most cases, you get what you pay for.

[ComforablyNumb]

I'm not quite sure why you think it should be illegal.
Gave yourself away. The main reason its legality is often questioned is it anti-consumer and it enables manufacturers to maintain a higher than normal advertised price in the market.

[ComforablyNumb]

The reason I know is in Canada we have a law called the Combines Act and Levi's Canada was charged twice with violating it. ie: exerting our influence over supply of our product to retailers who would discount the price at retail, to the detriment of the brand. I used to enforce it. We lost the case on appeal.

Some retailer starting discounting, we would somehow lose their restock orders.
And the credit dept would suddenly reduce credit lines to the offending retailer and the local rep would stop calling on them. It was funny how that worked. *wink

And I know because I actually was in marketing at a national level.

edit: interesting sidenote..we were sued 3 times by WalWart for refusing to sell to them. For basically the same reason..bad for brand image and discounting every day. We won the first two times...but Levi's can now be found at walmart, so guess who lost the third? The 3rd case happened after I left. These things drag on for yrs. Lawyers made a fortune.

[Bronx19]

I don't think anyone needed Google to know why they set a min price.

Have we agreed that you will forever pay at least $800 for a Radion Pro?

Chinese boxes will grow coral, I owned them. But they wont last the distance, they don't blend light very well and you get bugger all warranty.

[Fredfish]

Everything is made in China, perhaps assembled in its home country. This doesn't negate my statement that reefers want the name brand premium gear. No one says, oh gee I wish I could get a Jebao. They want AI, Ecotech, Maxspect, ATI.
Damn, I'm not a reefer. :( I always wanted to be a reefer.

Like the one Cheech had...

[Potatohead]

Gave yourself away. The main reason its legality is often questioned is it anti-consumer and it enables manufacturers to maintain a higher than normal advertised price in the market.

So I'm a liar now? You are an interesting cat. My territory does does not involve the US so I do not concern myself with their laws.

You can call it a monopoly or price fixing if you want, but that is not true. It is not the only option a customer has. If EcoTech has MAP and you don't like it, there are twenty other options for lights or powerheads. It is also minimum advertised price, the retailer can sell for whatever price they want as long as they don't advertise that. I can assure you if you need six G4 Pros you can pay less than $799 each. You know that.

A race to the bottom is what leads to companies like Levi's sending all their manufacturing overseas. So Levi's starts paying half for their manufacturing and inventory, how much of that is passed to the consumer? You guessed it - Nothing.

[Bronx19]

Damn, I'm not a reefer. :( I always wanted to be a reefer.

Like the one Cheech had...

You don't want for the nice stuff Fred?

[Potatohead]

edit: interesting sidenote..we were sued 3 times by WalWart for refusing to sell to them. For basically the same reason..bad for brand image and discounting every day.

And you wonder why map exists :hmm4:

[ComforablyNumb]

I don't think anyone needed Google to know why they set a min price.

Potatohead the marketing guy didn't know. It was anti-consumer and anyone involved in marketing would know that right off the top of his head. He clearly did not. Maybe he should have googled. So you knew?? Ya right

[ComforablyNumb]

And you wonder why map exists :hmm4:
I clearly do not wonder why it exists. Wow, how much do you guys twist stuff..whoa.

[Potatohead]

Potatohead the marketing guy didn't know. It was anti-consumer and anyone involved in marketing would know that right off the top of his head. He clearly did not. Maybe he should have googled. So you knew?? Ya right

Here's how this went down.

You asked me about map pricing and why it wasn't illegal. You then edited your post something something about Googling it while I was responding. I know you did that because the part I quoted is all that was in your original post. You also then posted again about not worrying about answering it.

Like what the hell is going on here?

You still didn't answer my question about how Bronx was misleading by stating G4 Pro prices went down 40% when his argument was the opposite, you conveniently glossed over that one.

I don't believe MAP pricing is anti-consumer and I mentioned that in my previous post. If you do, you are simply a hypocrite by cutting off retailers who sold your product below the prices you wanted to sell at.

You said goodbye to this thread like five posts ago.

[Bronx19]

Potatohead the marketing guy didn't know. It was anti-consumer and anyone involved in marketing would know that right off the top of his head. He clearly did not. Maybe he should have googled. So you knew?? Ya right

lmao, yes I did know why they set the price and refuse to stock anyone that advertises cheaper. For the same reason all the rest do it. You want a Red Sea tank, its RRP. You want a CADE its RRP. You want a Radion, its RRP.

[ComforablyNumb]

My territory does does not involve the US so I do not concern myself with their laws.
I mentioned the Combines Act and if your territory is in Canada, you are governed by it. Do you sell to retail? Are you involved in advertising your product? Even at a local level?

You can call it a monopoly or price fixing if you want, but that is not true. It is not the only option a customer has. If EcoTech has MAP and you don't like it, there are twenty other options for lights or powerheads. It is also minimum advertised price, the retailer can sell for whatever price they want as long as they don't advertise that.
Listen, give it up please. You do not want to argue these points with me. Trust me.

A race to the bottom is what leads to companies like Levi's sending all their manufacturing overseas. So Levi's starts paying half for their manufacturing and inventory, how much of that is passed to the consumer? You guessed it - Nothing.
Au contraire. The list prices dropped by 15% when LS starting importing from Bangladesh. And price increases were kept in check.

You clearly have a very simple understanding of how these things work. I do not. I was involved..for years and 2 court cases that directly effected how the company carried on its marketing effects.

[Potatohead]

lmao, yes I did know why they set the price and refuse to stock anyone that advertises cheaper. For the same reason all the rest do it. You want a Red Sea tank, its RRP. You want a CADE its RRP. You want a Radion, its RRP.

Anyone with half a brain knows why MSRP or MAP pricing exists and what they mean. He seems to think it's some big trade secret.

[ComforablyNumb]

lmao, yes I did know why they set the price and refuse to stock anyone that advertises cheaper. For the same reason all the rest do it. You want a Red Sea tank, its RRP. You want a CADE its RRP. You want a Radion, its RRP.
lol, thats not what was said at all. Go check.

[Potatohead]

I mentioned the Combines Act and if your territory is in Canada, you are governed by it. Do you sell to retail? Are you involved in advertising your product? Even at a local level?

Your original queary was asking about the United States, not Canada.

I cannot divulge exactly who I work for, but I am the Vancouver/Lower Mainland area rep for a specific arm of very large, well known German company that specializes in engineering and manufacturing.

[ComforablyNumb]

Here's how this went down.
I don't believe MAP pricing is anti-consumer and I mentioned that in my previous post. If you do, you are simply a hypocrite by cutting off retailers who sold your product below the prices you wanted to sell at.

lol..you keep getting deeper and deeper into your tub of BS. I was not a hypocrite, I was doing what the shareholders wanted. I clearly stated what the company did to enforce MAP-like advertising strategies, the outcomes of those cases and why they were won or lost.

LMAO..you are never going to win any argument with anyone knowledgable on the subject..like me.

[ComforablyNumb]

Your original queary was asking about the United States, not Canada.

It was, but I mentioned the applicable Canadian law several posts ago. You are in Canada are you not?

[Potatohead]

Keep reading...

Knowing the ins and outs of consumer law is what our lawyers are for and it's not really my responsibility. What I do know, is the product I deal with is what I know in and out and is a lot more complicated than blue jeans and button up shirts ;).

[ComforablyNumb]

I cannot divulge exactly who I work for, but I am the Vancouver/Lower Mainland area rep for a specific arm of very large, well known German company that specializes in engineering and manufacturing.
And that matters..why? Your parent company and you are both subject to Canadian law, the Combines Act, if you are doing any business-to-business exchange at all in this country where your product is resold to consumers or advertised by price in the media.

[ComforablyNumb]

Keep reading...

Knowing the ins and outs of consumer law is what our lawyers are for and it's not really my responsibility. What I do know, is the product I deal with is what I know in and out and is a lot more complicated than blue jeans and button up shirts ;).

Not when it comes to marketing. If I needed any tech backup about the number of threads per inch per fabric offering, number of teeth per inch on the pant fly.. whatever I didnt know..I only had to pick up the ph and contact the proper engineer or dept head.

Marketing is not always knowing all the underlying details in your product's development, design and manufacture (altho that doesnt hurt, and you will usually pick up most of it over time)..but hardly anyone is an expert on all facets of all processes and all details in a large multi-national corp...none of our company presidents would be expected to know all those things either. It is about managing the relationship between manufacturer and retailer, getting those answers when you need them, and increasing the value of yourself to your company and its shareholders.

[Gweeds]

I don't think anyone needed Google to know why they set a min price.

Have we agreed that you will forever pay at least $800 for a Radion Pro?

Chinese boxes will grow coral, I owned them. But they wont last the distance, they don't blend light very well and you get bugger all warranty.
Thanks all... just to pick up on this post, I'll be removing the lenses, then they mix colour (not color lol) wonderfully... I'll be replacing the 6500k whites with UV also, so not sure how much use a warranty would be anyway :/

What you lose in par for removing lenses will be made up by putting 6 over the tank instead of 3.

I'll be paying £140 (you do the conversions) per 220w of power... which I think is pretty good regardless of whether it's t5, mh or my mother in law holding a desk lamp. Add another £30 or so for the replacement uv leds...

We'll see how it goes, but as they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained. If I can grow acros with cheap leds successfully (without all that crap to do with 'bone' on the undersides), which I will, I'll be well happy :) :)

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Potatohead]

Did you mention how big the tank was? 1100 watts I assume it's a big tank.

[ComforablyNumb]

Keep reading...

Knowing the ins and outs of consumer law is what our lawyers are for and it's not really my responsibility. .

lol..violate that law, have someone file a complaint with the govt..and you will be called to court as a witness to defend your actions on behalf of the company before you know it. The offending rep is usually not fired..its mgnt that pays the price for hiring you and not making you aware of applicable law that govern your actions while representing the company to your markets and customers.

[ComforablyNumb]

I cannot divulge exactly who I work for
Why..unless you work for CSIS or the CIA?

Anyway..tried to end this, but keep going if you wish.

[Potatohead]

This obviously has you boiling. You keep going back and re-quoting old posts trying to find some angle. Pretty funny.

There are only so many massive German companies, I'm sure you can figure it out. It's not an automaker, but most certainly one of their suppliers.

Edit- you still didn't answer my question about Bronx and his pricing skullduggery.

[ArmanS]

This thread has gone from a good read to ****.


Let's get back on topic plz.

I've had MH, MH and T5, Radions, and now I have my ATI hybrid.

Honestly for me and my corals the ATI Hybrid is the best. Having said that, I would love if I was able to have an LED fixture that would provide the same results and colors while producing less heat and using less power. I just am not convinced enough yet and on a 120"x36"x30" tank I feel that if I wanted to be successful with LEDs I would need 10-12 fixtures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ComforablyNumb]

This obviously has you boiling. You keep going back and re-quoting old posts trying to find some angle. Pretty funny.

There are only so many massive German companies, I'm sure you can figure it out. It's not an automaker, but most certainly one of their suppliers.

Edit- you still didn't answer my question about Bronx and his pricing skullduggery.

This doesn't have me boiling at all. lol..I love talking about this stuff. What are you talking about?
And I keep going back quoting things because it was often denied they were even said or for the context in which they were said.

It doesnt really matter who you work for, I was only curious to see what type of sales or marketing you were in. So you are local manufacturers rep for German company. If I were to be interested, I would be interested in what % of your income is commission based, but not much else.

And I did answer about Bronx and the price suddenly being in aussie dollars.

[Bronx19]

This thread has gone from a good read to ****.


Let's get back on topic plz.

I've had MH, MH and T5, Radions, and now I have my ATI hybrid.

Honestly for me and my corals the ATI Hybrid is the best. Having said that, I would love if I was able to have an LED fixture that would provide the same results and colors while producing less heat and using less power. I just am not convinced enough yet and on a 120"x36"x30" tank I feel that if I wanted to be successful with LEDs I would need 10-12 fixtures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're experience is that of many who have tried LED and T5. The bigger the tank the less LED stacks up.

[ComforablyNumb]

This thread has gone from a good read to ****.


Let's get back on topic plz. Heaven forbid..

I've had MH, MH and T5, Radions, and now I have my ATI hybrid.

Honestly for me and my corals the ATI Hybrid is the best. Having said that, I would love if I was able to have an LED fixture that would provide the same results and colors while producing less heat and using less power. I just am not convinced enough yet and on a 120"x36"x30" tank I feel that if I wanted to be successful with LEDs I would need 10-12 fixtures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For a larger tank, buying any kind of decent lighting system is probably going to be expensive for sure. But you know that. After reading this thread and others, you will realize there is no real consensus on which is better for what.

They all work..it becomes more what works best for you. Thats how these threads all start...and they all end the same.

ATI hybrid is an excellent choice. You will get shimmer only from single point sources tho. If you have seen a tank lit by Kessils for instance and like the look, go single point light. But that aside, the ATI is a well accepted company for quality and performance. You wont go too far wrong with that brand for sure.

[ComforablyNumb]

You're experience is that of many who have tried LED and T5. The bigger the tank the less LED stacks up.

We should let him decide whats right for his tank and circumstances. He's going to anyway. That is your opinion and many disagree with it.
Its hard to go wrong with an ATI hybrid, I'd say.
48" are around $1,800 or so I think.

edit: and you may see some shimmer from the led components but they are not clustered leds so will be much less and will be somewhat washed out by the t5's anyway. Very few argue against hybrids. We may find one or two here tho ...lol

[Dugless]

I was thinking the same thing about getting back on topic. And then I see your addition of 'Heaven forbid' in the quote a few posts up. If I've learned anything in this thread, it's how ego and rudeness can make someone a real jerk.

[ComforablyNumb]

I was thinking the same thing about getting back on topic. And then I see your addition of 'Heaven forbid' in the quote a few posts up. If I've learned anything in this thread, it's how ego and rudeness can make someone a real jerk.

Jerk?? rudeness can make someone a real jerk. I guess you missed the obvious irony and contradiction within your own post. lol

And yes, I have legal training. I also hold an MBA from McGill. ( http://www.mcgill.ca/desautels/ )

Give it up. It was me asking for folks to stop calling others names, if you recall. Do I need to quote my posts to make that evident to everyone? You were rude first, I responded and you were just rude again. Give it up ..anyone can read the thread. And ego is a subjective call..and I would say yours is at least as strong as mine, but yours seems mostly unwarranted from what I have seen here out of you so far.

Let the guy get this thread back on track pls. Sheesh. I tried and then you started up again.

[Gweeds]

Did you mention how big the tank was? 1100 watts I assume it's a big tank.
320g, 8'3" x 26"

Will fit 3 x 2 of the '300w' (220w) Chinese boxes happily and that coverage should allow for the slightly lower par once the lenses are removed.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Gweeds]

This obviously has you boiling. You keep going back and re-quoting old posts trying to find some angle. Pretty funny.

There are only so many massive German companies, I'm sure you can figure it out. It's not an automaker, but most certainly one of their suppliers.

Edit- you still didn't answer my question about Bronx and his pricing skullduggery.
Oooh.. I like a guessing game! Is it Bosch?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Bronx19]

For a larger tank, buying any kind of decent lighting system is probably going to be expensive for sure. But you know that. After reading this thread and others, you will realize there is no real consensus on which is better for what.

There is no getting away from the fact that lighting a 4x3 with LED will cost much more than T5.

Some might not agree, but some are wrong.

[ComforablyNumb]

Give it up. Its over...as far as I am concerned anyway.
Troll away at me all you want. I will not respond to any more of your crapp.
You and your BS are a waste of time...

[Bronx19]

Give it up. Its over...as far as I am concerned anyway.
Troll away at me all you want. I will not respond to any more of your crapp.
You and your BS are a waste of time...

LED covers 1.5 x 1.5 ft, a 2ft T5 covers 3x2ft, for less. Divide 12 square ft by each and hey presto, the man was right, LED would cost a tonne more.

Give it up. It was me asking for folks to stop calling others names, if you recall.

Oh.

[Fredfish]

This thread has gone from a good read to ****.


Let's get back on topic plz.

I've had MH, MH and T5, Radions, and now I have my ATI hybrid.

Honestly for me and my corals the ATI Hybrid is the best. Having said that, I would love if I was able to have an LED fixture that would provide the same results and colors while producing less heat and using less power. I just am not convinced enough yet and on a 120"x36"x30" tank I feel that if I wanted to be successful with LEDs I would need 10-12 fixtures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lani LEDs do this. You might not like the price though. :)