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View Full Version : Dropped LED to go back to MH for the second time :/


kevensquint
07/03/2017, 10:10 AM
Just want to say , I tried the 1st generation Radoin when it came out, so maybe 7 years ago ish. After a year of some corals happy ( I am a 95% SPS keeper) and some not. I sold it to put back my Phoenix 250w. Which took a month to blow a years results from the ecotech out of the water.
Then on my 75 which ran for 3 years on Radiums/Phoenix MH and T5's again, phenomenal growth and color.
Now on my newest 160, I finally wanted to once again try Led. I installed 2 Kessil 360's and T5's. My goal was to use mainly the Kessils, after a few months of bleaching at only 35% heavier on the blue side. I ended up reverting to mainly T5, and finally Kessils only on at 5% for evening viewing. So I sold them last week and once again went back to MH/T5. It's obviously too soon to see, but my experience tells me my frags will be getting new tips in the next week's. Very frustrating, my tanks run a little too clean which no doubt contributes to the fast paling out under the pure wavelengths of LED. However such a popular tech after this many years should be further along than it is ATM, IMO.

madweazl
07/03/2017, 10:16 AM
You mentioned bleaching and paling of color; did you have both issues or just one? 35% was the intensity or color? I just moved all the LPS out to make room for more SPS so it's too early to know how the newest acros are going to do but my previous has kept it's color.

Edit: Two Kessil A360WEs over a 75g at 65% color and 40% intensity.

kevensquint
07/03/2017, 10:44 AM
35% intensity color was around 25 or30% . The kessils were about 20" maybe more above the water. I was very , very gentle and still was too much.What can I say a significant group of hobbyists as well as myself are not compatible with Leds. It's funny how Leds where touted as stand alone awsomness a few years ago, and now even BRS videos mention Leds are best with T5. Maybe in a few more years it will be, you know what? the last 10 years of Leds was a bit misleading after all.
Monti caps bleach, acros paled. When I went to Kessils at 5% in the evening and T5's for the photoperiod colors came back. Some people have success with Led, but I like the ease of getting awesome results with MH even in my lower nutrient style systems. In my clients tanks LPS and softies LOVE led.....sps is more touchy.

dirland
07/03/2017, 01:07 PM
I seem to have same issue with LED butt mine is dyi....just got a free orbit mh and t5 fixture, put new bulbs in it and SPS starting to show color with less than a week

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

dirland
07/03/2017, 01:08 PM
I am still going to add some led to the fixture itself and just run all three types of light.....than I can't miss right?!?!

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kevensquint
07/03/2017, 01:59 PM
I feel those that have success have matched the perfect spectrum, intensity and DLI with the chemistry and corals in their tank. I have never hit that target. Many variables and some luck thrown in with educated guess work. That said in the past say 8 years I've dropped 2 grandish into Led trials. I'm out.

malate
07/03/2017, 03:03 PM
Don't blame you. I'm considering going back to Phoenix MHs myself. Went to Kessil AE360 and haven't had any luck w sPS growth.

Horace
07/03/2017, 05:07 PM
I think lights are often the scapegoat for other issues.

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kevensquint
07/03/2017, 06:11 PM
I think lights are often the scapegoat for other issues.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

That would only be the case if all proven lights were unsuccessful on said tank. Since the "other issues " would still be present. I can only speak for my experience. Leds no luck, T5 and or MH SPS results as good as any above average tanks and that without changing anything else other than the Leds.

cobra2326
07/03/2017, 07:51 PM
That would only be the case if all proven lights were unsuccessful on said tank. Since the "other issues " would still be present. I can only speak for my experience. Leds no luck, T5 and or MH SPS results as good as any above average tanks and that without changing anything else other than the Leds.

I don't think anyone debates that the right T5 or MH fixtures, sized for the proper tank are basically plug-and-play. That's why Ecotech did their CoralLab plans, Kessil has their color wheel, etc. For the most part, MH/T5 is still the gold standard, although that is quickly changing.

kevin.st
07/03/2017, 07:58 PM
I don't think anyone debates that the right T5 or MH fixtures, sized for the proper tank are basically plug-and-play. That's why Ecotech did their CoralLab plans, Kessil has their color wheel, etc. For the most part, MH/T5 is still the gold standard, although that is quickly changing.

Quickly changing? I think not.

kevensquint
07/03/2017, 08:10 PM
Led becoming the new gold standard would mean basically anyone with correct water parameters and conditions can easily get great results. I don't see that yet or happening this year. As I mentioned previously even BRS says in a light video Led results are best when used with T5. Jason Fox says in his video he doesn't find Led all that great stand-alone.
This post was not meant for a debate, I have nothing to debate about, my mind is made up. It was so newer reefers can see yet another reef veteran (27 years now) going back to old school lights. It is advantageous for me that other hobbyists buy MH and T5 bulbs so they remain available. I aired my dirty laundry now. So I'm going back to hands on instead of virtual hobby activities.

Scorpius
07/03/2017, 08:26 PM
I can attest to the coral nuking capabilities of the Kessil A360we series. 35% intensity can/will kill coral not used to this light.

Randy27
07/04/2017, 01:40 AM
Leds vary within the brands, as well. I wasn't impressed with the new kessils and went back to my hydras and will likely never look back. But I never did the t5 bit...always hated the washed out colors in sps. Just gotta find the right led for your system.

madweazl
07/04/2017, 05:53 AM
35% intensity color was around 25 or30% . The kessils were about 20" maybe more above the water. I was very , very gentle and still was too much.What can I say a significant group of hobbyists as well as myself are not compatible with Leds. It's funny how Leds where touted as stand alone awsomness a few years ago, and now even BRS videos mention Leds are best with T5. Maybe in a few more years it will be, you know what? the last 10 years of Leds was a bit misleading after all.
Monti caps bleach, acros paled. When I went to Kessils at 5% in the evening and T5's for the photoperiod colors came back. Some people have success with Led, but I like the ease of getting awesome results with MH even in my lower nutrient style systems. In my clients tanks LPS and softies LOVE led.....sps is more touchy.

I just cant see an A360 providing enough PAR to bleach an SPS (or much of anything for that matter) at 35% intensity mounted 20" above the tank. Did you ever have a chance to measure PAR by chance? I get just over 100 PAR (Apogee MQ-500 with full spectrum sensor and 1.32 correction factor) at 40% intensity, 8" below the surface, with the light 5" above the water line. I would think it more likely you weren't getting enough intensity. I'm not trying to convince you (or anyone else) to go back, I'd just like to know a bit more.

Mortie31
07/04/2017, 07:02 AM
This post was not meant for a debate, I have nothing to debate about, my mind is made up. It was so newer reefers can see yet another reef veteran (27 years now) going back to old school lights. It is advantageous for me that other hobbyists buy MH and T5 bulbs so they remain available. I aired my dirty laundry now. So I'm going back to hands on instead of virtual hobby activities.[/QUOTE]

So you made your statements purely for personal gain then!!! as you want others to buy them so they stay available... you are deliberately trying to influence others without debating your statements.... I hope others are not swayed by you and do debate....

kevensquint
07/04/2017, 07:34 AM
* your right that was not a fair way to put it. Same thing but worded more diplomatically.

" I honestly believe thanks to years of experience MH and or T5 is a better choice all around for every hobbyist to be very successful. And as for myself I want to put my experience out there in hopes others consider MH over LED so all those that enjoy those lights including myself can continue to use them. "
As for the relatively low PAR at 30-40% being able to bleach. Your neglecting the fact that Led are pure spectrums so 150 PAR of blue LED might be 150 PAR of 450nm. So the photosynthetic efficiency of that 150 PAR is much higher than say a Radium MH at 150 PAR. Which will have a strong 450nm peak, but other wavelengths as well. My 75 using MH/T5 from day 1 to day 365.
http://photobucket.com/share/links?u=http%3A%2F%2Fs1382.photobucket.com%2Fuser%2Fkevensjase%2Fmedia%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FPhotoG rid_1425254024374_zpst4yie4nq.jpg.html%3Fsort%3D3%26o%3D1

jda
07/04/2017, 08:03 AM
Don't sweat this.

I am starting to fully understand why the best of the best reefers disappear from the internet altogether except to sell their wonderful frags for a mint a few times a year and maybe type up a TOTM article every few years. They have years and years of PERSONAL experience that they try and share with folks, yet get crushed by those with no/less experience who are keyboard warriors that lack any kind of nuance and details about the hobby and talk about what they have in their own homes and what they have read about from others and have never fully experienced what they are arguing against. They finally figure out that they don't need the headache of swimming upstream against the bandwagoners and folks who covet their tank success, but not their advice on how they got there.

plyle02
07/04/2017, 08:24 AM
Don't sweat this.

I am starting to fully understand why the best of the best reefers disappear from the internet altogether except to sell their wonderful frags for a mint a few times a year and maybe type up a TOTM article every few years. They have years and years of PERSONAL experience that they try and share with folks, yet get crushed by those with no/less experience who are keyboard warriors that lack any kind of nuance and details about the hobby and talk about what they have in their own homes and what they have read about from others and have never fully experienced what they are arguing against. They finally figure out that they don't need the headache of swimming upstream against the bandwagoners and folks who covet their tank success, but not their advice on how they got there.

I agree with this statement, and have seen all of those old school aquarists that I admired so much disappear, always wondering why? And if you think the hobbyist side is brutal from a keyboard battle perspective, try working in the industry...lol... Oh wow it is BRUTAL :) Trendies are riddled throughout the industry side, and often a product is revered or propped up by who is the best "dude bro" at the after hours functions. I have seen it all, I am now a hobbyist again, and I may just decide to go away too, lol...

cobra2326
07/04/2017, 08:33 AM
In the interest of full disclosure, I'm a total noob when it comes to SPS and I was just noting the trends (LED) and standards (MH and T5). I shouldn't have even bothered putting "that is quickly changing". People can interpret trends and results how they will without my opinion.

I've been following many of the threads by successful SPS keepers and doing my best to imitate them. Time will tell, but I'm fully invested in LED (I have a custom build that I can continue to tweak until I get results or give up).

FoothillCorals
07/04/2017, 08:35 AM
Don't sweat this.

I am starting to fully understand why the best of the best reefers disappear from the internet altogether except to sell their wonderful frags for a mint a few times a year and maybe type up a TOTM article every few years. They have years and years of PERSONAL experience that they try and share with folks, yet get crushed by those with no/less experience who are keyboard warriors that lack any kind of nuance and details about the hobby and talk about what they have in their own homes and what they have read about from others and have never fully experienced what they are arguing against. They finally figure out that they don't need the headache of swimming upstream against the bandwagoners and folks who covet their tank success, but not their advice on how they got there.


Amen brother

kevensquint
07/04/2017, 08:40 AM
I serve a handful of clients as well as a local coral warehouse ( distributor) and I see and work with many, many more systems on a weekly basis other than my own. So my statement is in fact based on not only my own tanks but many other s as well. I did say softies and LPS seem to really like LED. That is what I see first hand. That said, MH or T5 is not limited to certain corals or specific adjustments. Is a great general overall proven successfull light.
All that said, as just previously mentioned, I'm old and busy in this hobby. I don't wish to argue with potentially teenagers owning 2 frags and a years of experience. No offence to solid hobbyists, but no way to know who is who.

cobra2326
07/04/2017, 08:56 AM
Here's a quote from Sahin when he switched from T5 to LEDs. I think it's a good perspective:

In terms of light coverage, you need lots of units to get same coverage as T5.

My tank is practically 95% SPS and 90% of that is acropora. Hence I have noticed subtle changes in some of my acros that I'm not happy about.
What I wasnt happy about was for example, my Red Planet: its no way as red as before. It didnt brown out...rather it looks like a purplely red planet. Maybe its a spectrum thing I dont know. The frag I gave to my buddy turned the same kind of colour in his tank. Its like a kind of purple red rather than the more red tone I had under T5's.

The other coral with significant change is my "rainbow" granulosa...it had a green base, changing to a sky blue towards the tips with a purple tip face. Its turned largely green. Lost the sky blue colour completely. I'd adjust the spectrum and measured the PAR levels but couldnt get the sky blue colour back.

Another acro with pink corallite edges and red polyps lost the red polyps and the pink corallites.

For a mixed reef or a reefkeeper who is going new into the hobby and or newly with SPS isnt probably going to notice these subtle differences...and they will rightly say, yeah sure LEDs/Radions are fine for acros...and they are...but IMO they dont pull that extra bit of colour and some acros dont look as nice. They could be coloured nicely, but for me acros that had more than two or more colours have morphed into single or double colours.

Now I am being very critical here, but keeping a tank full of acros I can notice the changes.

The other thing I didnt like was how dim the Radions look...I couldnt get used to the dimmer look...they look dim, but the PAR is there. If I turned them up to how bright my corals looked under my T5's, the PAR levels went up crazy...

...Which tells me the light is VERY directional and pointing largely down. There isnt as much scatter as there is with T5's or MH in a reflector.

What confirmed my above observation was the top facing tissue have nice colour, but the sides and anything in shadow has turned pale. With my T5's I didnt have this issue.

I think had I went with a couple of Radions and T5 as supplemental, I wouldnt be changing anything right now....

jda
07/04/2017, 09:12 AM
Experiences like these are all over the place with SPS and LED if you actually look to learn.. and not just look. Most folks don't see what is in front of them, or discount the experiences of an experienced guy like Sahin because they just don't want to believe that what they thought or bought could be wrong. Perspective truly is a skill. Only the elite can really get into the nuance and details of life, but it matters so much.

Dr. Joshi has a good writeup of LEDs over his mixed reef... basically, no electrical savings, color not as good, more heater costs, less chiller costs, some acros suffering, some fine. It gets discounted by the "bros" as well.

tdb320reef has a few very long threads about this and also some of the challenges of lighting a large SPS tank.

Off Topic: Cobra... can you please PM me where you got that snippet from Sahin. I would like to read more of that thread and see the reactions and stuff.

kevensquint
07/04/2017, 10:02 AM
[/URL]http://s1382.photobucket.com/user/kevensjase/media/Mobile%20Uploads/PhotoGrid_1425079867434_zpsvwtt6sux.jpg.html]http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah245/kevensjase/Mobile%20Uploads/PhotoGrid_1425079867434_zpsvwtt6sux.jpg[/URL][/IMG]

-Sorry I saw my pic of 1 year of growth in my old 75 never posted. Its 2x 250W MH and some ATI blue +'S. This tank never used LED. Nevertheless I went back and tried again with Kessils/T5 to my disappointement. Some of the corals where moved around during the year, but no new pieces where added. so it is an honest progress pic.

madweazl
07/04/2017, 10:16 AM
* your right that was not a fair way to put it. Same thing but worded more diplomatically.

" I honestly believe thanks to years of experience MH and or T5 is a better choice all around for every hobbyist to be very successful. And as for myself I want to put my experience out there in hopes others consider MH over LED so all those that enjoy those lights including myself can continue to use them. "
As for the relatively low PAR at 30-40% being able to bleach. Your neglecting the fact that Led are pure spectrums so 150 PAR of blue LED might be 150 PAR of 450nm. So the photosynthetic efficiency of that 150 PAR is much higher than say a Radium MH at 150 PAR. Which will have a strong 450nm peak, but other wavelengths as well. My 75 using MH/T5 from day 1 to day 365.
http://photobucket.com/share/links?u=http%3A%2F%2Fs1382.photobucket.com%2Fuser%2Fkevensjase%2Fmedia%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FPhotoG rid_1425254024374_zpst4yie4nq.jpg.html%3Fsort%3D3%26o%3D1

With the Kessil, was there a reason you stuck to the mostly blue spectrum vice dialing in more color to better match the output of the MH since that is what you ultimately switched to? You also mentioned 160(g?) but used two Kessils; what were the dimensions of the tank? I have two over the standard 75g (48x18) and wish I'd done three from the beginning but I hadn't planned on going SPS dominant at the time. I'm considering the addition of two 48" T5s to help cover that oversight.

kevensquint
07/04/2017, 10:28 AM
I have a spectrometer and PAR meter. The "other" colors are B.S. for a LED light to work as everyone wants it would need many more wavelengths bunched together as close as possible to make the light homogeneous. If I remembered the Kessils have 3 or 4.
2 or 3 wavelengths in the UV/blue and just whites. Whites do not seem to make SPS happy. It's just not the same as a white light made up from hundreds of wavelengths.

madweazl
07/04/2017, 10:50 AM
I have a spectrometer and PAR meter. The "other" colors are B.S. for a LED light to work as everyone wants it would need many more wavelengths bunched together as close as possible to make the light homogeneous. If I remembered the Kessils have 3 or 4.
2 or 3 wavelengths in the UV/blue and just whites. Whites do not seem to make SPS happy. It's just not the same as a white light made up from hundreds of wavelengths.

They have visible cyan, greens, and reds (easier to catch at the outer perimeter of the light) as you increase color; how much is present I don't know. I don't know that there are any strictly "white" lights in the fixture.

kevensquint
07/04/2017, 11:47 AM
When a LED has a diode of red or green or any wavelength. You will see a peak in the spectral plot. More diodes of X wavelength the higher the peak. The only peaks I found were in actinic and blue. The white was the telltale blue peak and low wave in the green/yellow/red. But no peaks. So I strongly believe there are no red or green diodes. If there actually are, I tip my hat to Kessil for really blending them in. Still won't change the hundreds of other wavelengths missing tho.

Lord,Darth Bane
07/05/2017, 03:08 AM
I think u gave up too soon. The local store runs Kessil for the display tank and the acros are doing fine. You said you bleached your acors for such a low intensity? I think the Kessil is not that bright so you may have not set the right spectrum yet.

I have been using 2x Hydra 26HD for 8 months now. Some corals did lose a bit colour at first. But now both SPS and LPS are doing fine. Even my Aussie acans and doughnuts have kept their colours. I think I would not look back to T5, and never to MH.

StarF
07/05/2017, 05:05 AM
I have been running led light for years (GHL Metris lamps) What i noticed from when i was running t5, that i needed some po4 and no3 in the system, with out it corals would stress. So now i am to keep po4 = 0,025-0,04 and no3 about 1-2. This gives me good color and good growth rates. Also i learned you dont need to crank the light all the way up, and getting a feel for the right spectrum blend is important to color and health.

I moved from a 3 year old system running on one metris lamp, to a new setup with 4 metris lamps, and so far the system has been running for around 6 month with out to much problems. These are just quick photos with my mobile, but colors are fine.

http://i.imgur.com/aeqqfu5.jpg

link to album:
http://imgur.com/a/AiVkL

cobra2326
07/05/2017, 08:09 AM
When a LED has a diode of red or green or any wavelength. You will see a peak in the spectral plot. More diodes of X wavelength the higher the peak. The only peaks I found were in actinic and blue. The white was the telltale blue peak and low wave in the green/yellow/red. But no peaks. So I strongly believe there are no red or green diodes. If there actually are, I tip my hat to Kessil for really blending them in. Still won't change the hundreds of other wavelengths missing tho.

I'm sorry, but there is a lot of misinformation here. I'm glad halides are working well for you, and I totally agree that there are tons of high-end, successful SPS tanks running halides. Lets be fair on both ends though. The misinformation on both sides is not doing anyone any favors. I'm happy to provide more details if you'd like.

On another note, your previous tank was really nice. Well done!

kevensquint
07/05/2017, 11:33 AM
I'm sorry, but there is a lot of misinformation here. I'm glad halides are working well for you, and I totally agree that there are tons of high-end, successful SPS tanks running halides. Lets be fair on both ends though. The misinformation on both sides is not doing anyone any favors. I'm happy to provide more details if you'd like.

On another note, your previous tank was really nice. Well done!

If anything is incorrect, it was learned from this question a while back that I asked to experts. " Are LED diodes one wavelength ?"

While I did not give a thorough or quoted explanation here. If the info I passed on, on LEDs is misinformation, you're gonna have to correct the designer of the new Orphek and the boss of Reefbrite. Because according to them. A diode while not precisely a 1nm wavelength. It is almost. I am passing on what I have learned from true known experts. One of the reasons I almost never participate in these forums anymore is anyone an correct anyone until who knows where the information became from in the first place. Was it Dana Riddle? or Johnny wishbone with 1 year experience. I think it's time for me to leave the rest of this for you guys to figure out. I have nothing more to contribute when information provided by the highest level of light experts in the hobby is now incorrect.

cobra2326
07/05/2017, 01:23 PM
If anything is incorrect, it was learned from this question a while back that I asked to experts. " Are LED diodes one wavelength ?"

While I did not give a thorough or quoted explanation here. If the info I passed on, on LEDs is misinformation, you're gonna have to correct the designer of the new Orphek and the boss of Reefbrite. Because according to them. A diode while not precisely a 1nm wavelength. It is almost. I am passing on what I have learned from true known experts. One of the reasons I almost never participate in these forums anymore is anyone an correct anyone until who knows where the information became from in the first place. Was it Dana Riddle? or Johnny wishbone with 1 year experience. I think it's time for me to leave the rest of this for you guys to figure out. I have nothing more to contribute when information provided by the highest level of light experts in the hobby is now incorrect.

Before I post anything else, was I offensive in how I responded? If so, I will be more careful next time. I don't mean disrespect to anyone here and value your contributions. I just want to have a discussion and give both sides a fair, complete perspective.

jda
07/05/2017, 02:29 PM
I hate posting resume stuff and all of that, but I have a Masters in Engineering from a Top-20 school, took five high level classes on quantum mechanics (a photon is a quantum for those who don't know) and studied LED a lot - believe it or not, they have not fundamentally changed much since the 1920s. My roommate in college is now an Engineer at Phillips in Germany working on LEDs - we still talk a lot. What kevensquint is saying is more real in the actual science than what gets passed around by most reefers and especially most manufacturers. What most people think is fair and balanced has usually come from other reefers, isolation from a single study or two or is BS from a panel manufacturer - most of it does not hold much water in the real world.

The bottom line is that the only savings from ANY light source is by cutting spectrum and keeping intensity high (LED) or just cutting intensity (less of another source... 250W Halide vs a 400W Halide, for example). A quantum from a LED with a wide spectrum and the same amount of energy will take the same wall power as a MH or any other source. There is no way around this. None. The science is there to produce LEDs that are broad spectrum, but there is no energy savings and some of the early wide spectrum diodes use more energy (they will get better).

I think that one positive that LED brought is a sense that most folks never needed as much power as they might have once had. A mixed reef did not need 4x400W MH and a pile of T5s at 1500W to do quite well. Sure, LEDs can do that job for 1/3 the wattage, but so could lower wattage metal halides or less T5 bulbs.

Although I don't recommend this to anybody, taking a Quantum Mechanics class at a local JUCO could do more for enlightenment on this subject than anything from a message board, BRS article, manufacturer paperwork or any of the other siloed information that is passed around as fact. When you understand what is in the particle, you can understand how it gets created.

Kevensquint - I used to try and persuade folks to stick around and fight any fight worth fighting, but I cannot do that anymore. I am sorry to see you go. I probably will be gone soon - I just can no longer argue with a guy (not on this post) who shows badly colored, misshapen stick and has all of the knowledge that anybody could ever have and discounts the advice of the experienced. I just don't need it anymore.

plyle02
07/05/2017, 03:28 PM
I hate posting resume stuff and all of that, but I have a Masters in Engineering from a Top-20 school, took five high level classes on quantum mechanics (a photon is a quantum for those who don't know) and studied LED a lot - believe it or not, they have not fundamentally changed much since the 1920s. My roommate in college is now an Engineer at Phillips in Germany working on LEDs - we still talk a lot. What kevensquint is saying is more real in the actual science than what gets passed around by most reefers and especially most manufacturers. What most people think is fair and balanced has usually come from other reefers, isolation from a single study or two or is BS from a panel manufacturer - most of it does not hold much water in the real world.

The bottom line is that the only savings from ANY light source is by cutting spectrum and keeping intensity high (LED) or just cutting intensity (less of another source... 250W Halide vs a 400W Halide, for example). A quantum from a LED with a wide spectrum and the same amount of energy will take the same wall power as a MH or any other source. There is no way around this. None. The science is there to produce LEDs that are broad spectrum, but there is no energy savings and some of the early wide spectrum diodes use more energy (they will get better).

I think that one positive that LED brought is a sense that most folks never needed as much power as they might have once had. A mixed reef did not need 4x400W MH and a pile of T5s at 1500W to do quite well. Sure, LEDs can do that job for 1/3 the wattage, but so could lower wattage metal halides or less T5 bulbs.

Although I don't recommend this to anybody, taking a Quantum Mechanics class at a local JUCO could do more for enlightenment on this subject than anything from a message board, BRS article, manufacturer paperwork or any of the other siloed information that is passed around as fact. When you understand what is in the particle, you can understand how it gets created.

Kevensquint - I used to try and persuade folks to stick around and fight any fight worth fighting, but I cannot do that anymore. I am sorry to see you go. I probably will be gone soon - I just can no longer argue with a guy (not on this post) who shows badly colored, misshapen stick and has all of the knowledge that anybody could ever have and discounts the advice of the experienced. I just don't need it anymore.

:thumbsup:

slavetonet
07/05/2017, 05:57 PM
Here is my unprofessional opinion on the lighting matter.
MH works on all level - high heat, high energy cost
T5 works on all level - medium to high heat, high / medium energy cost
Leds works on all level - Highend gear - medium to low heat / medium energy cost providing it is getting good light spread.

All will grow corals in sps tank to a certain degree. I feel the LEDs can improve over time with efficiency and design challenge.

thirst
07/05/2017, 06:16 PM
I just combine all 3

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170706/ab08967f77f9d66cdd5901e9063dd959.jpg

Cebu sun
3x250 radium with 4x80 t5 and reefbrite xho

Massive overkill, trying to see if I can bleach my sps under 1500 par


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

reefinder
07/05/2017, 07:39 PM
Thanks for this thread I am learning ������

murphreef
07/05/2017, 09:50 PM
Good info and discussions.

I started a new 25G nano and bought the AI Prime HD unit about 3-4 months ago now.

Love the idea, the design and the energy usage but I can not stand the open ended options to adjust each color. I have no clue what or if I am giving too much light or not enough. LPS, zoas and my RBTA look fine but SPS no bueno and no growth. I wish AI would provide some proven light graphs that one could use vs having to dick around constantly.

I always had MH on my tanks before from my 180G SPS tank to my small 25G AIO Solana but was out of the hobby for around 3 years and figured I would go LED this time..... Figured it was a 25G cube, figured it would be great.....

Well after about 3-4 months I found out LED's are not my cup of tea I am going back to 20K MH lighting. Tried and proven on my end, always grew corals fast and the colors were awesome. I think LEDS are cool and all but just seem to harsh and too many options where MH just plug in and grow corals!

Lord,Darth Bane
07/06/2017, 12:54 AM
The bottom line is that the only savings from ANY light source is by cutting spectrum and keeping intensity high (LED) or just cutting intensity (less of another source... 250W Halide vs a 400W Halide, for example). A quantum from a LED with a wide spectrum and the same amount of energy will take the same wall power as a MH or any other source. There is no way around this. None. The science is there to produce LEDs that are broad spectrum, but there is no energy savings and some of the early wide spectrum diodes use more energy (they will get better).

I think that one positive that LED brought is a sense that most folks never needed as much power as they might have once had. A mixed reef did not need 4x400W MH and a pile of T5s at 1500W to do quite well. Sure, LEDs can do that job for 1/3 the wattage, but so could lower wattage metal halides or less T5 bulbs.



I am no way a quantum physicist but I think you missed something. Have you ever considered their efficiency? Eg lumens per watt.

MH is less efficient as they are hot. More electrical energy is converted to heat energy, resulting in less light energy.

There is no way a 250W MH, can produce as much light (lumens) as a 250W T5HO system, or LEDs.

Simple law of conservation of energy.

jda
07/06/2017, 08:04 AM
It does, actually. They produces light waves in the IR range. This is where the heat comes from, not a dead-short or electrical rush type of heat more than the same wattage of any other product (all have some), so your application of that law is not applicable. LEDs have this too when power supplies and diodes get hot from electrons racing, but there is no IR, so less heat - it is also spread out over more diodes. If there was no IR, then 100W of MH electrons and LED electrons would be identical in hot power supplies and bulbs/diodes. For sure, some of the IR spectrum is not all that usable to most corals (if not all), but they are light waves nonetheless that took the same power to create the quantum.

I get where you are coming from, but it is misleading by those who have offered it before. Once you realize that the heat is from IR, which is wave/light output, then watt to watt output being equal starts to make more sense and then you can dial down to how much power being put into IR is wasted - there is some. This is where the inequality lies, but not as much as some think.

The only reason that they measure differently is the tools available for most to measure and the reliance on some using those tools as absolute - while they are the best that most have access to, a real manufacturer that can rent or use a good tool should not be relying on them. Or, they only measure a small piece of the spectrum - sure a light made up of nothing but 5.5k diodes will have more lumens per watt than a light putting out from 4500 to 7000 but only reading at 5.5k. Using an integrating sphere (usually about $20-30K) with all light sources at 100% output and capturing all of the waves, any light sources will have the same ratio of radiated watts to input watts. If you cut down the IR range over 720nm, then MH will waste 2-6% depending on the bulb since this is most likely useless waves that are pure heat.

In the end, if you have a real tool to measure, then a MH is 2-6% less efficient in useful spectrum than a LED (bulb dependent) - not nearly what people would have you believe. I never tested any T5s for their IR output since they won't fit in an Integrating Sphere. Here is where it gets crazy... to think about how even though LEDs have nearly all of their spectrum (power) in the useful range, how inefficient are they for growing coral since the concentrate their wattage on a handful of large peaks of spectrum ranges and leave huge gaps between. If you have to fill those ranges with other lights (most use T5s), then how wasteful is the excess output for that handful? I don't know to know this, however. This is a harder concept for most to grasp with more nuance and the "pro LED" folks can just say "heat" and people will get their somewhat off-basis argument.

I probably did a bad job explaining this... sorry. Basicly - 100W of "conservation of energy" heat will produce the same heat for any light source since it is dependent on electrons that are fixed - MH is hotter because of light waves in the IR range.

zsuman101
07/06/2017, 11:10 AM
Here is my unprofessional opinion on the lighting matter.
MH works on all level - high heat, high energy cost
T5 works on all level - medium to high heat, high / medium energy cost
Leds works on all level - Highend gear - medium to low heat / medium energy cost providing it is getting good light spread.

All will grow corals in sps tank to a certain degree. I feel the LEDs can improve over time with efficiency and design challenge.
It's true you can do it with leds, you just need a radion for every square foot of reef, then you have to hang them 3 ft or more feet above the tank to get the proper mixing of colors before the light hits water. And since they're so far off the water you have to crank them up , with that said there is no wattage saving, if anything it's more. I have and use mh, t5 and radions. I believe the magic is inside those radium halide oozing all those wavelengths homogeneously (is that a word) and Leds just need to be implemented in a different way i.e. much higher up and many many units to do it right by sps standards. BTW, ime nothing beats my radium halide reef, period ...... zsu

cobra2326
07/07/2017, 08:13 AM
It does, actually. They produces light waves in the IR range. This is where the heat comes from, not a dead-short or electrical rush type of heat more than the same wattage of any other product (all have some), so your application of that law is not applicable. LEDs have this too when power supplies and diodes get hot from electrons racing, but there is no IR, so less heat - it is also spread out over more diodes. If there was no IR, then 100W of MH electrons and LED electrons would be identical in hot power supplies and bulbs/diodes. For sure, some of the IR spectrum is not all that usable to most corals (if not all), but they are light waves nonetheless that took the same power to create the quantum.

I get where you are coming from, but it is misleading by those who have offered it before. Once you realize that the heat is from IR, which is wave/light output, then watt to watt output being equal starts to make more sense and then you can dial down to how much power being put into IR is wasted - there is some. This is where the inequality lies, but not as much as some think.

The only reason that they measure differently is the tools available for most to measure and the reliance on some using those tools as absolute - while they are the best that most have access to, a real manufacturer that can rent or use a good tool should not be relying on them. Or, they only measure a small piece of the spectrum - sure a light made up of nothing but 5.5k diodes will have more lumens per watt than a light putting out from 4500 to 7000 but only reading at 5.5k. Using an integrating sphere (usually about $20-30K) with all light sources at 100% output and capturing all of the waves, any light sources will have the same ratio of radiated watts to input watts. If you cut down the IR range over 720nm, then MH will waste 2-6% depending on the bulb since this is most likely useless waves that are pure heat.

In the end, if you have a real tool to measure, then a MH is 2-6% less efficient in useful spectrum than a LED (bulb dependent) - not nearly what people would have you believe. I never tested any T5s for their IR output since they won't fit in an Integrating Sphere. Here is where it gets crazy... to think about how even though LEDs have nearly all of their spectrum (power) in the useful range, how inefficient are they for growing coral since the concentrate their wattage on a handful of large peaks of spectrum ranges and leave huge gaps between. If you have to fill those ranges with other lights (most use T5s), then how wasteful is the excess output for that handful? I don't know to know this, however. This is a harder concept for most to grasp with more nuance and the "pro LED" folks can just say "heat" and people will get their somewhat off-basis argument.

I probably did a bad job explaining this... sorry. Basicly - 100W of "conservation of energy" heat will produce the same heat for any light source since it is dependent on electrons that are fixed - MH is hotter because of light waves in the IR range.

If I may, this is a misleading way of looking at things. Heat is emitted across many different wavelengths, generally above the visible spectrum (> 700nm). Including those wavelengths in a measurement will do exactly what you said, it will make all light sources look equal. Incandescent bulbs will look the same as LEDs, fluorescent bulbs, etc.

If "heat" is confusing (I don't think it is), you can use the concept of thermal radiation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation. It's radiation in the same sense as the usable light emitted by a bulb, but that's where the similarities end:

The incandescent light bulb has a spectrum overlapping the black body spectra of the sun and the earth. Some of the photons emitted by a tungsten light bulb filament at 3000 K are in the visible spectrum. Most of the energy is associated with photons of longer wavelengths; these do not help a person see, but still transfer heat to the environment, as can be deduced empirically by observing an incandescent light bulb. Whenever EM radiation is emitted and then absorbed, heat is transferred. This principle is used in microwave ovens, laser cutting, and RF hair removal.

jda
07/07/2017, 08:51 AM
Cool. Then if we can agree that it takes the same energy to create the same radiated watt, then this is progress. Then, sources can start to eliminate an analyze the unusable spectrum and call it a day. Like I said, for a handful of Reef MH bulbs, it was 2-6% waste about 720nm, bulb dependent. If the difference in radiated watts was 2-6% in the 350 to 720 range, don't you think that people would see that differently than what they are being told now? It certainly matches more anecdotally with what people say when they have to use 2-3x the panels to replace a gas bulb for high light coral (two panels at 50-60% being closely equal to one MH at 100%).

What happens when people say heat, is most folks think of normal "electronics heat." They don't think of IR. When you look at IR emitted by a REEF MH bulb, it is there, but not in super huge quantities.

I am not saying that IR Heat and this spectrum should not be considered. It certainly should. ....but the "3.5x more lumens per watt" that is thrown around is just not even close... and people buy new equipment based off this believing it to be true.

We did not test a regular incandescent bulb, but tungsten filament and a gas are pretty far apart for output. You have piqued my interest, though... Just a quick google search for spectrum shows one at 400 to 750 nm (which does not seem right) and another says that they go up 2500nm (which does not feel right either). Maybe we can test one next time.

Wiskey
07/07/2017, 10:31 AM
jda, thank you for taking the time to explain this! I was thinking that some light with MH was wasted to heat, but reading that it's IR which is a type of wave makes a ton of sense! It's really interesting that only a couple percent is wasted to pure heat. I love being efficient, and I couldn't stand the idea that MH was "Wasting" all this energy, it makes a big difference if I'm told its producing a wide spectrum of light similar to what the corals see in the wild, some bands of which I can't see.

I'm using all T5 now and going from T5/LED to pure T5 was a good move for me. I would love to upgrade to a 120, or 180 and when I do the choice will be between MH/T5 and all T5.

Subscribed. This is one of the most informative threads I've read in a long time.

Whiskey

Dugless
07/08/2017, 02:04 AM
This thread reminds me why I gravitate to the SPS section. Good stuff here.

Lord,Darth Bane
07/08/2017, 03:44 AM
Be it simply called "heat", or "infrared heat" in the electromagnetic radiation form, to try to say that MH is as efficient in using electrical energy to produce "light" because it is still producing lots of "light" that you couldn't see! In the form of infrared which is above the visible light wavelength.......

Do these really matter? Do you think our corals need infrared? Do you still remember that when light goes into water, colours are lost every 10m, with red first? How deep could infraRED go? Do corals in the sea actually receive lots of infrared? I'll just leave it here.......

Appreciated all the informative replies. Cheers.

jda
07/08/2017, 08:51 AM
I am not saying that IR light is a good thing. ...just saying that there is not nearly as much there are what people say and think.

I don't know that anybody knows if our corals need IR. Some of the shallower corals do develop pigments to reflect IR (like sunscreen), so it can help with natural coloration. There are acres of SPS that sit out of the water for some of the day. However, I don't know if I would add it to a light source missing it. (laugh if you want about IR being responsible for color, but just a few years ago, there was laughter about adding UVB to LED panels to color corals better)

All of this starts to make sense where some really smart folks have opined that in their experiences that there is no savings in wattage to light a tank with the same (or as close to the same) results. Dr Joshi has an outstanding reputation (at least I have never hard anything bad said about him) and has this opinion. If you factor in that a reef MH bulb will lose 2-6% to heat and all of this is quite believable.

cobra2326
07/14/2017, 08:23 AM
So, BRS did their review of the Kessil A360W and I'm going to go out on a limb and say, even at 100%, it's really not enough PAR for SPS. At 12",
PAR peaked at 170 and averaged 145. If you were running them at 35% intensity, that's < 100 PAR at 12". With two, you might get some boost from overlap but I'd love to see actual measurements. Not to mention the hotspot issues and other problems.

Anyway, if you're interested in trying to run Kessils, watch the video. They cover a lot of things, and it looks like you'd need 2 placed close together, or 3+ to really get enough PAR. With most high-end T5/MH Tanks getting peak PAR in 500-600 range, you'd need at least 4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wavz8K63-Oc

cobra2326
07/14/2017, 08:26 AM
Cool. Then if we can agree that it takes the same energy to create the same radiated watt, then this is progress. Then, sources can start to eliminate an analyze the unusable spectrum and call it a day. Like I said, for a handful of Reef MH bulbs, it was 2-6% waste about 720nm, bulb dependent. If the difference in radiated watts was 2-6% in the 350 to 720 range, don't you think that people would see that differently than what they are being told now? It certainly matches more anecdotally with what people say when they have to use 2-3x the panels to replace a gas bulb for high light coral (two panels at 50-60% being closely equal to one MH at 100%).


Wouldn't you say that PAR and spectral analysis are a much better way to compare things?


I am not saying that IR Heat and this spectrum should not be considered. It certainly should. ....but the "3.5x more lumens per watt" that is thrown around is just not even close... and people buy new equipment based off this believing it to be true.

I totally agree with this. Although some of the latest-gen LEDs (emitters, not necessarily fixtures) do seem to have a slight efficiency boost over MH or T5, it's not much (30% vs. 25% IIRC from one of the studies you posted and others I've read). I can pull actual numbers, but I don't think that's the point. You're not going to get the same results with 100W of LEDs as you do with 250W of MH. Maybe 225W of LEDs, but only if you properly space them to account for shadowing, and run a modern fixture with full-spectrum.

dadummy
07/15/2017, 09:09 AM
years ago they told me you can't grow SPS under VHO, that was a false statement. Then the T5 tube came along which I was also told cannot grow SPS, wrong again fella's. Once again LED's started showing up and the veterans said you cannot grow SPS under LED, well wrong again, they did grow...BUT!!!!.. I haven't tried to grow SPS Acropora especially under power compacts, and don't feel the need too, but with the right application and water quality, I am sure it could be done.
A guy at a LFS has SPS, Montipora, A. Tenuis *growing in a very small cube maybe 3 gallons with a Par 38 bulb over it. The only equipment on the tank is a bubbler. Basically, a piece of rigid airline tubing putting out a couple bubbles a second submerged halfway down the cube. No fish, no food, occasional water change and top off, that's it!! Pretty cool little experiment, curious to see how long the corals survive, been a couple three months so far.
Don't know where I am going with all this but a successful reef has more factors than lighting alone