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karimwassef
07/14/2017, 11:45 PM
Due to the size of my new project, I'm using the concrete floor of the slab as my sump with cinderblock sides & guides. I'm also using cinderblock for the base of the DT.

My last cinderblock base tank was in college in the 80s and it was a tiny little 180. They weren't cemented or glued together.

This is a different animal.

I will epoxy the slab before using it and I plan on using construction glue to hold the blocks in place. Those blocks that are intended to hold water, I will use hydraulic cement on to seal the cracks and then epoxy as well.

Anyone have any advice or DIY tips from actual experience doing something like this?

karimwassef
07/14/2017, 11:47 PM
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/2_zpsjcpwgwyh.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/2_zpsjcpwgwyh.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2_zpsjcpwgwyh.jpg"></a>

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Desert Sea
07/15/2017, 08:10 AM
If I understand you correctly, your building a large sump out of concrete block that will have a concrete slab for a base. Concrete block is very porous and not a very good choice for containing water. It would need to be coated with something non-permeable and livestock friendly. Being that its a sump, maybe some type of liner would be an option.

Also depending on how much water you plan on holding, the block may need to be doweled to the floor slab with horizontal reinforcing and grouted solid. You may also want to consider using a waterstop between the floor and the block. I would suggest Type S mortar over construction adhesive for bonding the blocks together.

ericarenee
07/15/2017, 08:28 AM
A FEW Things for a concrete tank.

1. Every 2 feet all the way around the concrete blocks Drill a 3/8 inch hole into the slab dead center of the blocks about 4-6 inches deep and put in rebar up to the height of the tank.. Do so also on each side of the corner blocks.. Put wire between each course of the blocks.. Once you have the wall build. I would use mortar designed for blocks.. Pour all the cavities full where the rebar is at.. I do not think you need to fill the blocks solid but if you have the funds it would not be a bad idea.

also use bonding blocks for the top roll and fill them with concrete as well . NOT Mortar.. Fill the bonding blocks and rebar cavity with Cement not mortar..

Kadee
07/15/2017, 09:36 AM
Have you considered a stock tank?

karimwassef
07/15/2017, 11:24 AM
This is a specific shape and covers 10'x13'x30" = 2,400 gallons.

I don't trust liners since I expect to be physically in this sump myself a lot. It will experience wear from walking, dragging, leaning, standing on, etc... needs the durability of a pool or jacuzzi. The irregular shape makes this harder too. There will be 10' high structures inside this sump resting of 20-30 blocks for support- all pushing against that slab.

The floor is the foundation of the building = post tension slab 12"

I plan on using the hydraulic cement to seal followed by a ~1/4" thick layer of epoxy. Why would cinderblock mortar be a better seal? If I go that route- can I skip the epoxy? I was really hoping hydraulic cement would be sufficient.

The construction is actually a combination of block and concrete walls (2" thick). The blocks are really for corners and to support heavy structures above. I've never drilled into a foundation slab but was considering asking the company would will be pouring it to add vertical rebar ties where the blocks are planned.

Only problem is if I need to make changes later.

What would be the problem with not using rebar in the sides? I realize it's not as strong but does it need that level of support? I was originally going with plywood and decided concrete and cinderblock may be cheaper and easier. If the plywood was going to be glued together, wouldn't the same construction adhesive work even better with heavy block? Why is type S better ?

I'm not asking to reject or questioning the advice :) ... I'm just trying to learn the limits and needs of a new medium to me.

Thank you for helping. I'm grateful for your expertise.

ericarenee
07/15/2017, 11:57 AM
Concrete blocks are super strong stacked.. But do not take as much pressure as you think from side forces.There are adhesives for staking blocks morterless. The rebar will with the bond beams will prevent the blocks from being pushed outward from the water pressure..If the blocks were sitting on a footer then the slab poured around them would be even stronger.
either way you will have to seal the blocks

karimwassef
07/15/2017, 12:10 PM
what's a footer? As in cut down into the slab?

let me as it this way.. if you were to build this water tight structure from scratch (slab not yet poured) to optimize for cost and strength, how would you do it?

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/0_zpswweezymw.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/0_zpswweezymw.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpswweezymw.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zps6ht6erff.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zps6ht6erff.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zps6ht6erff.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/2_zpsgqescxwt.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/2_zpsgqescxwt.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2_zpsgqescxwt.jpg"/></a>

notice the pathway is not regular either. The flow goes through an 18" channel from under the tank into the large 5' stock tank that's acting as a sediment filter.. then to the water change section on one side and the return flow area on the other side.

karimwassef
07/15/2017, 12:39 PM
Rechecked the height... it's 24", not 30".. so that just under 2000 gals.

With only three blocks, could I get away without the horizontal rebar?

Any advice on the cinderblock to concrete (dark gray) interface.

ericarenee
07/15/2017, 12:45 PM
here is a image of a typical Concrete structure.. Footer depth width and reinforcement will very state to state,local building codes and design of structure above them..

https://www.oas.org/pgdm/document/codedraw/images/fig-b-8.gif

The footing is below ground level with Rebar to reinforce it. Preventing separation from cracks. If you build a tank sitting on slab with no footer below the tank walls. this will put under uneven stress on that area of the slab.when this happens and it will happen. the walls will move with the expansion cracks in the slab pulling them apart causing a stress point in the wall. without reinforcement it will Fail ..


For instance when a house is built on a slab the lab has deep pockets dug out where structural supports such as load bearing walls and the entire perimeter of the exterior of the slab is deeper then the rest of the slab. this helps prevent sinking and better distributes the weight .. With the water being a DEAD Equal weight i think you need a footer below grade, then block work with Rebar. every 2 feet apart from footer thru to top of the tank.. Then pour the floor around the block walls.. now using the Concrete Colums as you have in your design will work . but my opinion is there needs to be extra rebar in the concrete blocks and all corners poured solid . Also your concrete barrier walls need to have either a channel sitting down into the poured floor or again rebar to stiffen them....

but if the barriers or baffles if you will are going to have equal pressure on each side this is less of a issue but all parameters should be as Described for a proper structural concrete wall as described above .

you can google proper above ground concrete pond or pool images for a better understand of proper construction...

the above is my opinion and i am sure others may disagree..


i cant wait to see some actually ground breaking on this project

karimwassef
07/15/2017, 01:58 PM
So if I built a plywood tank of the same size, it would be ok. But if I just the slab that the plywood would have been sitting on, I would need to reinforce it with rebar supports?

Is the fact that this is only 24" high (usual height ~ 12-18") reduce the requirement for support?

Most of the weight will likely be under the holding tanks in the middle of the sump where the 80" of water + stack of 7 cinderblock high is pushing down in those locations. The other side has a 10 blocks high build supporting a 4' x 8' x 2' surge return tank.

karimwassef
07/15/2017, 04:24 PM
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Drylok-Extreme-Masonry-Waterproofer-Concrete-Sealer/39921545?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=282&adid=22222222228027743773&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=m&wl3=54780056711&wl4=pla-90195957911&wl5=9026838&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=111838817&wl11=online&wl12=39921545&wl13=&veh=sem

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/1000/b1/b103be70-59fa-40f4-b366-371e7a3b8dde_1000.jpg

That seals against 33ft of water. I only have 2ft

Sharpimage
07/15/2017, 06:58 PM
You can't drill holes into a post tensioned slab, without x raying then first. It is highly dangerous. If you hit a tendon, even with a tapcon hole, the tendon will snap. I have seen tendons fly out of building 200 feet. This is what I do for a living. Dont drill holes in the slab.. but without filled cells drilled into the slab, the walls will fail. Guaranteed. Maybe it on day 1, but guarantee failure. Also 2,400 gallons is a lot of weight on a slab. A post tensioned slab is not on the ground so you may want to consult an engineer before you go any further.
Dan

ericarenee
07/15/2017, 07:09 PM
i missed the post tension slab. and really see no reason for it.. If you put in proper Footers for the project build up the block then pour the floor around them

Sharpimage
07/15/2017, 07:36 PM
i missed the post tension slab. and really see no reason for it.. If you put in proper Footers for the project build up the block then pour the floor around them

He said it is an existing post tensioned slab. You can't cut into a post tensioned slab. I really think you need to get a local engineer to look at what you have. I have major concerns you will threaten the structural integrity of the building. You are adding 120 psf of dead load of water alone. Just that is pushing the envelope of what the building was most likely designed to hold.

Sharpimage
07/15/2017, 07:38 PM
I should say, I am in South Florida. And do not know construction codes for Texas, but I still have major concerns

Desert Sea
07/15/2017, 08:14 PM
As Sharpimage noted, drilling into a post tension slab should not be attempted without x raying the slab and consulting a Structural Engineer. Severing a chord can be lethal and lead to structural failure. There are critical dimensions for hole size, distance between holes and distance to chords that must be maintained.

Is this slab an elevated slab?

You usually see post tension concrete in elevated slabs and beams, not slab on grade. If it is an elevated slab, has it been designed to carry the weight of the proposed tanks?

karimwassef
07/16/2017, 12:36 AM
the slab doesn't exist yet. This is still in planning.

The entire building is dedicated for the tank only and the post tension slab is intended to support the weight of the tank, sump, surge, etc...

It's 25' x 48'. The tank itself is 8' x 12' x 27" (1600 gallons). The sump is 10' x 13' x 24" (2000 gallons). The first set of surge tanks are 325 gallons each x 4 = 1200 gallons. The second surge tank is 4' x 8' x 24" = 500 gallons. The last surges are a pair 1' x 4' x 5' = 300 gallons. That's not including the RODI, fresh saltwater makeup, and recycled saltwater at 300 gallons each = 900 gallons.

The slab is the foundation for a greenhouse that's 12' on the sides (15' in the middle).

I'm sure everyone has concerns... but we're still in the planning stages an can do this right.

karimwassef
07/16/2017, 12:49 AM
and and 200 cinderblocks

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/0_zpsk79eqyhc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/0_zpsk79eqyhc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpsk79eqyhc.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpsnzkgpupv.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpsnzkgpupv.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsnzkgpupv.jpg"/></a>

So 6500 gallons total = 54,000lbs = 27 tons

The cinderblocks are ~ 5600lbs = 2.3 tons

The greenhouse structure weighs about 4000 pounds of steel = 2 tons

so.. give or take 35 tons on a 25' x 48' = 1200 sqft

typical houses weigh between 80,000 and 160,000 pounds = 40 - 80 tons...

karimwassef
07/16/2017, 12:50 AM
so is it impossible - I doubt it.

Does it require some planning - sure.

I appreciate all the constructive help so we can make this possible.

Clowning_Around
07/16/2017, 06:52 AM
There are so many concerns I see and the dynamics of it all make it difficult to address each. There has been some good points made too which should be considered. I highly recommend getting an engineer involved. You don't need to spend an arm and a leg on it either. IMO it will be money well spent and piece of mind. For starters, I highly doubt cinderblocks will work they are so weak although you might get away with them with concrete filled n dowelled cores, a better choice would be a concrete block - yes there is a difference. There are even different types (weight) within conc. block, your need dictated by bond, reinf., loads etc.. My first thought would be however why deal south either, stay with me here.... The slab, I'm not sure why you want to entertain post tension in this application, it would be an added costs whereas you could put that money into the engineer fees. With an engineer involved you might be looking at something as simple as an isolated thickened matt slab with integrated upturned/inverted beams serving not only as the reinforcement for the imposed loads but doubling as a kneewall and eliminating the block all together. Food for thought, I do hope you involve an engineer. Gluck

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Sharpimage
07/16/2017, 10:16 AM
I agree with clowning around. Post tensioned would be unnecessary. A 12 inch thick reinforced slab is what you would want under the tank. It should have an expansion joint between it and the surrounding slab and building foundation. The walls of the holding tank should be concrete, not block. The reinforcing should go from the foundation into the walls, just like your house. I am sure this would need a building permit, and therefore an architect and engineer drawings. If not an engineer should design it regardless. His cost will be a minor part of what I imagine this total build will cost. Good luck with the build.

Sharpimage
07/16/2017, 10:19 AM
Also, just looking at that structure that holds all that water in the air, you would want reinforced concrete columns and beams, as well as a for wed elevated slab that it would sit on. You are definitely in engineer needed territory, but it completely doable.

karimwassef
07/16/2017, 10:26 AM
When I started looking into the slab construction, it looked to me that 1000sqft was the break even point in Dallas. At 1200 sqft, the post tension was not more expensive.

Dallas has clay earth which has been known to shift over time and given the weight loading (equivalent to a house) and the square footage (also equivalent to a house), I found that it would be safest to look at this as a foundation instead of a slab.

I terms of stresses.. the water in the sump is 12-18" high. I'm not sure where that is going to topple over cinderblocks. Like I said above.. I've used plywood and build tanks that were much higher. If making this out of plywood works, why would cinderblocks break ?

Getting an engineer - ok.

Saying that 18" of water pressure will break a post tension slab with cinderblock sides ... I just don't see it. Raising concern - I get. But if the feedback doesn't actually help me...

Here's what I have so far:

1. Get an engineer. See if post tension is really needed.
2. Before the foundation is poured, tie vertical rebar up into into the sump corner blocks (or every two feet) or base blocks for the tank or surge.
3. Use masonry adhesive instead of construction Fluegel.
4. Drill into the cinderblock sides and tie them horizontally with rebar and anchor to the vertical rebar from the foundation.
5. Fill in the cinderblocks holes (witg rebar in them) with concrete. The blocks were basically forms.
6. Fill holes and seal with hydraulic cement.
7. Paint with waterproofing drylock

Did I catch everything?

karimwassef
07/16/2017, 10:28 AM
What's a wed elevated slab?

karimwassef
07/16/2017, 10:31 AM
If I'd realized how flimsy concrete and rebar was, I may have started with a different medium. :)

For the platforms, I may reconsider using 2x12s and just epoxy the parts underwater.

The flat sections are triple stacked 3/4" plywood.

Sharpimage
07/16/2017, 11:48 AM
A web elevated slab is a formed elevated slab that was autocorrected.

Block has high compressive strength, a lateral load is only on the bond of the slab to block. I can push over a non reinforced block wall 10 feet high. Water pressure is unrelenting.

Since I am offering no help to you, in the field that I work in, I wish you good luck and.

karimwassef
07/16/2017, 12:27 PM
wasn't talking to you specifically, sharp.

I'm adding vertical rebar and filling with concrete to strengthen the vertical structures.

agree that water pressure is unrelenting - but 18" of water pressure shouldn't push over 3 cinderblocks with rebar and concrete that are tied to rebar in the slab.

karimwassef
07/16/2017, 12:29 PM
I spoke to a structural engineer this morning. He didn't see it as an intractable problem... basically, he'll look at the loading which is in the middle and determine the amount of additional concrete and support needed there.

I shared the water weight detail and he didn't see it as a problem. Basically, as long as I have an engineered slab, he says it's no issue.

Fish_Lover99
07/16/2017, 12:43 PM
I'm not the smartest when it comes to this stuff but I have some concerns
If there is sunlight coming directly down onto the tank you are going to have some major algae issues and considering it's a green house I think you will have some heat problems also as people stated before you will need rebar to go through the floor and up into the cinder blocks and you should probably fill the cinder blocks with concret for extra strength these are just my opinions and I could be totally wrong


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

karimwassef
07/16/2017, 12:57 PM
Yes.

Here's what we have so far:

1. Get an engineer. See if post tension is really needed.
2. Before the foundation is poured, tie vertical rebar up into into the sump corner blocks (or every two feet) or base blocks for the tank or surge.
3. Use masonry adhesive instead of construction Fluegel.
4. Drill into the cinderblock sides and tie them horizontally with rebar and anchor to the vertical rebar from the foundation.
5. Fill in the cinderblocks holes (witg rebar in them) with concrete. The blocks were basically forms.
6. Fill holes and seal with hydraulic cement.
7. Paint with waterproofing drylock

Anything not in this list?

ericarenee
07/16/2017, 02:52 PM
Yes.

Here's what we have so far:

1. Get an engineer. See if post tension is really needed.
2. Before the foundation is poured, tie vertical rebar up into into the sump corner blocks (or every two feet) or base blocks for the tank or surge.
3. Use masonry adhesive instead of construction Fluegel.
4. Drill into the cinderblock sides and tie them horizontally with rebar and anchor to the vertical rebar from the foundation.
5. Fill in the cinderblocks holes (witg rebar in them) with concrete. The blocks were basically forms.
6. Fill holes and seal with hydraulic cement.
7. Paint with waterproofing drylock

Anything not in this list?


This is a very sound plan ..

Clowning_Around
07/16/2017, 07:20 PM
You mentioned a comparison of plywood to cinderblock, plywood is much stronger in this application (laterally). My 4 year old can push over 3 courses of cinderblock (unreinforced of course)....

The load being applied down will actually help strengthen it laterally but it would still be a concern of mine...

Im glad you've involved an engineer. Stick within his recommendations :) Gluck.

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karimwassef
07/16/2017, 09:37 PM
Strong 4 year old... I stacked 3 blocks today and I couldn't do it without force... no, I'm not a weak guy.

The blocks are going to be glued with masonry adhesive which (if anything like the epoxy I've used to glue blocks together in the past) is stronger than the blocks themselves.

The blocks are also glued into a frame with corners and glued to the foundation. I trust this because I had the distinct displeasure of trying to wreck a concrete tank I built with epoxy and block only... it was nearly unbreakable, untippable, unwedgeable. I literally was in pain until I took a hammer to break it apart.

I understand "discomfort" but I prefer calculations and data. My own experience with blocks is that they're strong when glued into a framework... so the uncertainty in this thread surprises me. So I'll pay $500-$1000 to get it engineered.

ph_
07/16/2017, 10:28 PM
I just have to say I think this is way to big of a project for a DIYer. You should hire a contractor. Heck, a project this big should have a designer/architect, engineer, contractor. Theres is so many variables.

karimwassef
07/16/2017, 11:29 PM
thank you. I'm sure that hiring a professional team would be effective also.

I appreciate the feedback - I'm looking for help on how to do this... not whether I should do it.

ph_
07/17/2017, 07:37 PM
thank you. I'm sure that hiring a professional team would be effective also.

I appreciate the feedback - I'm looking for help on how to do this... not whether I should do it.

Okay I think we agree then, right?
In my opinion as a journeyman carpenter who has worked with concrete, It is possible, and your design might work well or it might not. The great thing about concrete is you can form it into any shape imaginable. There literally is no limit, you can incorporate curves and other designs into it. I also think mixing the concrete and concrete block will be too much. Just choose one or the other.

SFish
07/17/2017, 07:53 PM
I will say one thing that is going to be one h ll of a tank. Do you plan to have some furniture or something in that small building? I would want to make it a place where you are going to hangout. Maybe put a TV ect. I would not do a green house because of the heat. Just some non design things to think of. Post pictures when it is done.

karimwassef
07/17/2017, 08:18 PM
It is a sunroom so it needs temperature and humidity control but it will be a family area. I'll post some pics on my main thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2589632&page=24

karimwassef
07/17/2017, 08:29 PM
Okay I think we agree then, right?
In my opinion as a journeyman carpenter who has worked with concrete, It is possible, and your design might work well or it might not. The great thing about concrete is you can form it into any shape imaginable. There literally is no limit, you can incorporate curves and other designs into it. I also think mixing the concrete and concrete block will be too much. Just choose one or the other.

Paying a lot of money can make things better. I agree :)

I'm using concrete in the hopes that it's easier and cheaper. If there are better options, I'm open to redesign.

I haven't heard any concerns on mixing block and formed concrete... why would this be?

ph_
07/17/2017, 08:43 PM
It not wrong to use both block and concrete, but I am sure either one could be used without the other just fine and that would just simplify things slightly.
Personally I am a fan of concrete because it's ability to do curves and complex shapes.

karimwassef
07/17/2017, 09:45 PM
I happen be rectilinear here... I'm using the blocks as corner and edge controls. Frankly, all my experience has been with blocks so they were my go to medium.

I guess concrete forms 2' high aren't hard or complicated... I was just using the blocks as guides... training wheels.

The more intense implementation of the blocks is as structural support for the raised containers. I don't know if these tall structures need cross-bracing support?

Do they need to be tied into the ceiling frame or the walls?

karimwassef
07/17/2017, 09:50 PM
So the first engineering firm wants $5k... moving on to another firm

A concrete slab in TX is ~ $7/sqft in the 1000sqft space. For my 1200sqft, that's $8400

The engineering firm would basically design the slab thickness to compensate for the loading... so in some places, it may need to be twice as thick...

but for $5000, I can double the slab thickness everywhere and be ahead...

So moving on... will update as I get more feedback.

and self learning too:

http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/cooke/docs/samplechapter.pdf
https://www.wbdg.org/FFC/ARMYCOE/COETM/ARCHIVES/tm_5_809_12.pdf
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/simply-supported-slabs-load-capacity-d_1803.html
https://www.hunker.com/12001375/how-to-calculate-the-load-bearing-of-concrete
https://theconstructor.org/structural-engg/design-of-slab-basics/5017/

karimwassef
07/17/2017, 10:25 PM
Might be good to double check some math too...

the tank is 96" x 144" x 27" = 1600 gal = 13,500 lbs over an area of 13,800 in2

so ~ 1 psi ~ 140 lb/ft2 ? Is that about right? Feels like something is missing

If I look at the tank bases, that's made up of 14 cinderblock bases = 1,600 in2, so the pressure is 8.6 psi ~ 1200 lb/ft2

This is the best reference I've found so far, by the way - https://www.wbdg.org/FFC/ARMYCOE/COETM/ARCHIVES/tm_5_809_12.pdf

karimwassef
07/18/2017, 12:16 AM
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpsyjgj59yo.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpsyjgj59yo.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsyjgj59yo.jpg"/></a>

Here's the loading distribution (no factor)

As expected, the surge tanks create the highest pressure on 6 cinderblock faces at ~ 17 psi right in the middle. The two tanks are each ~ 10psi (one is raised, the other is the DT)

The rest is relatively small in comparison.. the actual sump water is 1 psi, the garage frame is 1 psi, the concrete sump sides ~ 3psi and the concrete around the circular settling filter is ~ 1.5psi.

I may need to add more supports under the surge tanks - here's an older view but it shows the tanks:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/2_zpsjcpwgwyh.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/2_zpsjcpwgwyh.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2_zpsjcpwgwyh.jpg"/></a>

here's the loading table from the reference I cited

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/0_zpsvv5zvoaz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/0_zpsvv5zvoaz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpsvv5zvoaz.jpg"/></a>

karimwassef
07/18/2017, 12:26 AM
1000 lb/ft2 is around 7psi... so the slab overall can be 8" but the areas with the highest load will need to be reinforced... and the surge tanks would be over 20" since 17psi is ~2500 lb/ft2... definetly needs more distribution of that load!!

I'm going to draw the line at 1500 lb/ft2 ~ 10psi which is achievable with 12" thickness with 700lb in2 concrete... that means I need 10 supports for the surge tank base!! wow.

I know I'm not assuming a dead weight factor of 1.25 and I don't have the soil report to see if I need a different subgrade reaction factor... but I'm working at it. I can be a fast learner when I get silly quotes. :D

DasCamel
07/18/2017, 02:31 AM
You're making me feel better about winging it for a 375g. Plan seems solid, keep it up.

karimwassef
07/18/2017, 09:52 AM
My biggest concern is the elevated cinderblock platforms, especially the one holding up the return tank. 4' x 8' x 2'

It's now over 8' in the air. Should I add a 3/4" plywood shelf every 2' up to create stability?

karimwassef
07/18/2017, 11:44 AM
Another realization is that vertical storage tanks are a real issue on any slab.

In my case, these are 36" diameter and 80" tall with 325gals = 2,700lbs (1.35 tons) full.

If you use 4 cinderblocks as feet, that's an area of ~500 in2 ... that's 5 psi or 750 lb/ft2

But put two tanks on the same 4 blocks and it goes to 1500 lb/ft2 that I don't think a normal house slab could handle. It would need 6 blocks to get it to the 1000 lb/ft2 mark again.

That kind of stress is where I see the concern. The 18" of water distributed over a large area doesn't contribute much to the loading pressure. In fact, the concrete boundary made up of a stack of 3 cinderblocks creates 3x the pressure.

If nothing else, this thread has made me dig into the real critical stresses here and I can modify the design to fix it.

A painful side effect though is that adding more concrete to distribute the weight helps, but the concrete itself weighs a lot, aggravating the pressure point as it relieves it. I'll have to try a few iterations and see how to optimize.

Sharpimage
07/18/2017, 01:00 PM
I will cone back to say this. By the questions you ask, you should not be building this. The structure is going to fail and probably kill someone. Your cinder block structure that is glued together is going to crash. Plywood will not hold the forces you are going to inpose. You need an engineer. It will call 5 k all day long. Your structure will cost you about 30k to build from the slab to the columns. If you don't grasp that by now, I don't know what else to say.

DM and the Boys
07/18/2017, 01:06 PM
Man, it's tough listening to "helpful" advice from someone rude enough to write "Enjoy your flood"...

Just an observation...

karimwassef
07/18/2017, 01:27 PM
I will cone back to say this. By the questions you ask, you should not be building this. The structure is going to fail and probably kill someone. Your cinder block structure that is glued together is going to crash. Plywood will not hold the forces you are going to inpose. You need an engineer. It will call 5 k all day long. Your structure will cost you about 30k to build from the slab to the columns. If you don't grasp that by now, I don't know what else to say.

I'm always open to feedback but judging what I can or cannot build based on questions I ask isn't helpful. I know a lot because I ask questions and I'm willing to learn without being ashamed to ask.

I know you're trying to help and you have by asked me the right questions too. But projecting that I'm going to hurt someone without knowing what I've been able to build in the past is uncalled for, in my view.

My budget for the system is ~$50k. I'm working to bring it down to less but that's my initial goal.

My ask is that, if you can provide good technical advice on how to do things better, please do. :)

Opinions are easy to form and a strong function of their source and their bias. I'm looking for references, equations, industry standards, etc...

I'm always open to listening to good technical input.

karimwassef
07/18/2017, 01:30 PM
Man, it's tough listening to "helpful" advice from someone rude enough to write "Enjoy your flood"...

Just an observation...

The scope and scale of this project is large and very intimidating. I realize that this immediately drives caution and apprehension. That's a good response to unknown territory so I accept that the intent of these comments is to invite prudence. I get it and not easily offended.

:)

No one here is out to hurt anyone else's feelings. They're really trying to help.

Sharpimage
07/18/2017, 02:18 PM
I do apologize as I was rude. I am truly trying to help, and what you are trying to accomplish is achievable, but also technically difficult. Most people can not fully grasp structural construction and what each seemingly insignificant details adds but when you add them all up it is much stronger.

To help you get on the right track, this is what I would do (after I called an engineer -got to beat the horse).

1. 12" thick mat concrete slab with 5/8" (#5) rebar at 12" on center running each way. top and bottom mat.
2. 12" square concrete (not block) columns with 4#6 reinforcing bars and #3 hoops at 8" o.c. vertically
3. 12"x12" concrete beam connecting the tops of the columns together for lateral stability.
4. for the deck, 2x6 on end, like a patio deck, with 3/4" plywood on top

5. Walls of the "sump" 8" thick reinforced concrete 24" tall. I would not use any block. #5 12" on center each way. 1 mat in the middle.

That should withstand the water and forces imposed on it. Of course everything would need waterproofing.

I would also add a waterproofing additive to the concrete. A product like Xypex or penetron. I highly doubt it is fish safe, but would help in case of any water intrusion leaks.

If you want to shoot me an pm I will give you my email and I will sketch some stuff out for you, since I was an a** earlier.
Dan

Sharpimage
07/18/2017, 02:21 PM
Ohh, and on the post tension slab note, I think you are missing a 0. They cost payback is more like 10,000 sf not 1,000.

Clowning_Around
07/18/2017, 03:09 PM
Paying a lot of money can make things better. I agree :)

I'm using concrete in the hopes that it's easier and cheaper. If there are better options, I'm open to redesign.

I haven't heard any concerns on mixing block and formed concrete... why would this be?
Mixing block and concrete is not an issue, it is a common practice. Although with such a limited amount you could skip a trade and just do concrete, you could even pour the verticals art the same time as the flat work using 'hanging forms'

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Clowning_Around
07/18/2017, 03:21 PM
One very important thing I haven't seen mentioned that you need to account for, soil bearing pressure. I know you mentioned the type of soil your accustom to in your area earlier when discussing aspects of a post tension slab but im talking compaction rating. Generally speaking if you have decent soil and only scrape off the bad topsoil before placing the concrete you are good to go but you have some considerable loading to factor. Before you place the concrete you should have a soil compaction test done by a geotechnical testing lab, they will also include in their findings any recommendations. You don't want to spend all your $$$ and not have a good base for your foundation, just think if it where to start settling on one corner more than the rest...

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Clowning_Around
07/18/2017, 03:27 PM
Oh and 5k is alot for a small job but bigger groups don't like small jobs because its hard to justify. Try finding a one man show or similar, you can probably tell by the website. Also you can find a residential home builder and ask for a referal. If you where local to me I could shoot you a name and it bet it would be under 1k, about 800 for something like this to give you an idea of an order of magnitude number

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karimwassef
07/18/2017, 03:58 PM
I do apologize as I was rude. I am truly trying to help, and what you are trying to accomplish is achievable, but also technically difficult. Most people can not fully grasp structural construction and what each seemingly insignificant details adds but when you add them all up it is much stronger.

To help you get on the right track, this is what I would do (after I called an engineer -got to beat the horse).

1. 12" thick mat concrete slab with 5/8" (#5) rebar at 12" on center running each way. top and bottom mat.
2. 12" square concrete (not block) columns with 4#6 reinforcing bars and #3 hoops at 8" o.c. vertically
3. 12"x12" concrete beam connecting the tops of the columns together for lateral stability.
4. for the deck, 2x6 on end, like a patio deck, with 3/4" plywood on top

5. Walls of the "sump" 8" thick reinforced concrete 24" tall. I would not use any block. #5 12" on center each way. 1 mat in the middle.

That should withstand the water and forces imposed on it. Of course everything would need waterproofing.

I would also add a waterproofing additive to the concrete. A product like Xypex or penetron. I highly doubt it is fish safe, but would help in case of any water intrusion leaks.

If you want to shoot me an pm I will give you my email and I will sketch some stuff out for you, since I was an a** earlier.
Dan

Awesome! Thanks Dan :)

karimwassef
07/18/2017, 04:04 PM
One very important thing I haven't seen mentioned that you need to account for, soil bearing pressure. I know you mentioned the type of soil your accustom to in your area earlier when discussing aspects of a post tension slab but im talking compaction rating. Generally speaking if you have decent soil and only scrape off the bad topsoil before placing the concrete you are good to go but you have some considerable loading to factor. Before you place the concrete you should have a soil compaction test done by a geotechnical testing lab, they will also include in their findings any recommendations. You don't want to spend all your $$$ and not have a good base for your foundation, just think if it where to start settling on one corner more than the rest...

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That's what I meant by taking the subgrade reaction factor into account. That's one of the missing elects and I did ask the subdivision planning enginer for the soil report. If not, I was planning on a geotechnical testing lab... they need to bore into the ground to take samples and I'd need to coordinate it with the builder.

karimwassef
07/18/2017, 04:04 PM
Oh and 5k is alot for a small job but bigger groups don't like small jobs because its hard to justify. Try finding a one man show or similar, you can probably tell by the website. Also you can find a residential home builder and ask for a referal. If you where local to me I could shoot you a name and it bet it would be under 1k, about 800 for something like this to give you an idea of an order of magnitude number

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Thanks. I got some references locally but most do inspections for day-to-day. I'll call around.

Clowning_Around
07/18/2017, 04:27 PM
That's what I meant by taking the subgrade reaction factor into account. That's one of the missing elects and I did ask the subdivision planning enginer for the soil report. If not, I was planning on a geotechnical testing lab... they need to bore into the ground to take samples and I'd need to coordinate it with the builder.
Borings are invasive and added expense/ may not be necessary. They can probably just do a compaction test using a nuclear density test machine, to it sticks a probe in the ground and determines what you have. Ask the company you hire what they recommend given the circumstances. Borings will however tell you the soil composition at the various depths where's the density test will not. If you dont have a good density or assume such a proctor compaction test in the lab can be done to tell you tell you the optimum moisture/ compaction for your condition. Again the company you hire can discuss and explain this to you, it should be part of a free consult to earn your business....

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Clowning_Around
07/18/2017, 04:32 PM
you mentioned a builder, are you hiring someone or diy? If you are hiring someone look for a contractor that is of the 'design- build ' type, they will be an added benefit. This type has in house or design consultants (Arch n Engineers) on retainer or similar, they can help you with a turnkey solution and look for cost effective solution as well.

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karimwassef
07/18/2017, 05:43 PM
I am not pouring a 1200 sqft foundation... :D
Yes. I'm hiring a concrete foundation company - I'll ask about engineering services.

The builder I referenced is actually my house builder. The sunroom is on the same lot.

Sharpimage
07/18/2017, 06:10 PM
Also, when they do building pads for houses, at least down here, they only do the pad for the building. The yard is not necessarily good building material. The Geo tech report for the development may only encompass the footprint of the house.

karimwassef
07/18/2017, 06:23 PM
The lot isn't super large. The sunroom is 16 feet from the house. Just long enough for a nice walkway.

The other side has a hill with heavy wall against a large parking lot for the fire station... lots of heavy vehicles on that side. I'll post some pictures.

ericarenee
07/18/2017, 07:05 PM
Reading thru all of the replies ,

My TWO Pennies.. Yes i know a thing or two about Concrete and building on it.What i do not know off hand is the average debt of footers in texas.

I think cost,Safety and Timing. You are better off laying out on the ground where your tanks and Tank supports are going to be. Say the block under your main tank , under your raised storage tanks and the corners and paremter of the large but shallow sump..

DIG OUT those areas to footer depth . it will be around 30 inches below grade. pour footings with rebar .....
Block up from the footer thru to height you need these colums . pour the blocks solid at the rebar locations..Will need to be approx 2feet apart and on each side of the corners ..

Pour 4 to 6 inch deep concrete lab for the building itself making the edge of the lab deep enough to handle the weight of the structure.. This will be the Strongest Its how Buildings are built.. High rise construction, Bridges , and everything else sit on concrete footings below Grade.. NOT CONCRETE SLABS ON GRADE.You are not building a house. your Building a room with structure in it that is heavy..

Refer back to the image i posted......

i Agree a engineer is not needed , a Concrete Contractor can help you with the Concrete / block part. Tell them you will sign off on it taking there responsibility out but ask them for specs in english so you can be assured they are giving you sound device..

The above design will give each item inside your structure its own foundation, This will keep the slab from having uneven pressure...

Again good luck and sorry if this is really just duplicate of the last post .

Sharpimage
07/18/2017, 07:39 PM
Reading thru all of the replies ,

My TWO Pennies.. Yes i know a thing or two about Concrete and building on it.What i do not know off hand is the average debt of footers in texas.

I think cost,Safety and Timing. You are better off laying out on the ground where your tanks and Tank supports are going to be. Say the block under your main tank , under your raised storage tanks and the corners and paremter of the large but shallow sump..

DIG OUT those areas to footer depth . it will be around 30 inches below grade. pour footings with rebar .....
Block up from the footer thru to height you need these colums . pour the blocks solid at the rebar locations..Will need to be approx 2feet apart and on each side of the corners ..

Pour 4 to 6 inch deep concrete lab for the building itself making the edge of the lab deep enough to handle the weight of the structure.. This will be the Strongest Its how Buildings are built.. High rise construction, Bridges , and everything else sit on concrete footings below Grade.. NOT CONCRETE SLABS ON GRADE.You are not building a house. your Building a room with structure in it that is heavy..

Refer back to the image i posted......

i Agree a engineer is not needed , a Concrete Contractor can help you with the Concrete / block part. Tell them you will sign off on it taking there responsibility out but ask them for specs in english so you can be assured they are giving you sound device..

The above design will give each item inside your structure its own foundation, This will keep the slab from having uneven pressure...

Again good luck and sorry if this is really just duplicate of the last post .

This is more or less what I said. But a mat slab can be used. They put mat slabs under vaults in banks, for reference. And I am a shell contractor, in Florida. I doubt any shell contractor wil give you specs. It would be a liablitiy issue.

Clowning_Around
07/18/2017, 07:50 PM
A matt slab is effectively one large footing. And by the way footer depth is usually dictated by frostline depth. With an interior slab that may be a moot point...

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ericarenee
07/18/2017, 08:07 PM
A matt slab is effectively one large footing. And by the way footer depth is usually dictated by frostline depth. With an interior slab that may be a moot point...

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ONLY Partly True . footing debt is required to be below frost line. But also require deeper debt to more compressed earth depending on the weight .
You cant put a multi story home on a slab with no footings at its structural points under exterior walls , under post where load bearing beams to support upper walls and roofs. These areas will require a slab of 18-30 inches. In some areas MUCH Deeper. Even when its acceptable to build a structure on top of a SLAB ONLY. The perimeter of the Slab and any load bearing ares are dug out to create additional support . Making these areas deeper and wider. often with rebar.

I just in my mind seeing several things in the design of this build different weight and weight distribution requirements .putting each of these on there own footing will protect the project when the SLAB Cracks.. the slab will crack.. especially with long term uneven load with no footing..

Anyway ..... Again the above is From my Experience Building high rise construction,Retail build outs ,schools and everything in between. I do not know all of the Ratios on depth and weight to strength numbers , I just know the Requirements From Structural drawings i have build over and over everywhere in the US. They are all Very Similar . most Concrete work almost Identical with the exception of Depth width and Reinforcement requirements..

Sharpimage
07/18/2017, 08:20 PM
I think you have gotten some very good advice here. Good luck with the build and keep us posted
Dan

Clowning_Around
07/18/2017, 08:28 PM
Well there is a difference between a slab and a matt slab. I have been involved with matt slabs that are 7 ft thick... no footings or beams it depends on how things are designed. With a matt slab you limit differential settlement which would likely be paramount for the intended purpose, not that it cant be done by other designs... Oh and your fooling yourself if you think you can protect concrete from cracking its inevitable / all concrete cracks its how you manage it that is important.

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Sharpimage
07/18/2017, 09:25 PM
The only real difference between a mat slab and a footer is the top elevation and a slab is finished. I have completed footers that are 400 sf. So we are really talking about the same thing. He may not be able to do a mat slab due to frost level, but I have no idea.

karimwassef
07/18/2017, 09:53 PM
The frost line in Dallas is 10". We don't really get that cold here. However, the soil construction is clay and the depth of the footers is usually 24" down.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/dallas/2576507-how-deep-dig-deck-footing-10-a.html

karimwassef
07/18/2017, 10:24 PM
I'm picking up on the lingo and researching to make sure I ask for the right structure (or asking the right questions) when I talk to a foundation engineer or contractor.

Here's my understanding:

A mat foundation (also called a raft foundation) is basically a flat sheet with deeper structures at the edges of the foundation. It can be reinforced with thicker sections where the high pressure loads are and those sections are tied into the "raft" with rebar and mesh.

The foundation with concrete footers is basically sitting on vertical concrete footers with vertical rebar supporting the heaviest sections of the slab and those are tied into the slab's horizontal rebar - basically heavy duty piers. This allows the rest of the slab to be thinner.

Did I get that right?

My confusion - Dan recommended 12"x12" concrete pillars. Erica recommended footers. What's the difference? Or Dan - did I confuse the slab construction with the vertical pillar construction to hold the tanks up?

Sharpimage
07/18/2017, 10:40 PM
You have it mostly correct. A mat footing can be one solid mat the same thickness throughout, or it can vary in depth due to loading.

A footer that is below ground is like 2 foot wide by 1 foot deep for as long as needed, like the perimeter of your house. They can also be pads, say 4 feet square and 12 inch's deep for a column to sit on.

We were arguing about which foundation is best, and either will work.

I recommended poured columns from the footer or slab going up to hold your water that is 6 foot in the air. I, persoa preference, would go with all concrete construction over block in this application. I do build bUildings and use block everyday and know that it certainly can be done with block, but in my opinion concrete would suit this application better.

karimwassef
07/18/2017, 10:42 PM
so that others can benefit also - I like pictures... easier to understand

http://www.jwkhomeinspections.com/system/files/userfiles/slab_image.png

http://www2.wisd.net/archive/industrialtech/CONSTRUCTION/FOUNDATIONS_files/image006.jpg

http://www.diychatroom.com/attachments/f19/68065d1364315648-floating-slab-questions-diychatroom-city-20x20-slab-reqts-copy.jpg

http://www.fao.org/docrep/s1250e/S1250E5E.GIF

this way, we have a shared language.

By the way, I have months to prepare and understand what I need - this is not an unplanned project :)

karimwassef
07/18/2017, 10:47 PM
You have it mostly correct. A mat footing can be one solid mat the same thickness throughout, or it can vary in depth due to loading.

A footer that is below ground is like 2 foot wide by 1 foot deep for as long as needed, like the perimeter of your house. They can also be pads, say 4 feet square and 12 inch's deep for a column to sit on.

We were arguing about which foundation is best, and either will work.

I recommended poured columns from the footer or slab going up to hold your water that is 6 foot in the air. I, persoa preference, would go with all concrete construction over block in this application. I do build bUildings and use block everyday and know that it certainly can be done with block, but in my opinion concrete would suit this application better.

Ok. So your foundation recommendation is to pour it thick enough overall to support the weight. Erica's recommendation is to pour pillars/footers under the heavy pressure areas, and the rest of the slab can be thinner.

I'll draw up both versions, so I make sure I understand both.

Thank you all for this help, by the way. It will make me a more informed consumer when talking to contractors and engineers and should help me find a better and more cost effective solution. :D :D :D

Pcon426
07/19/2017, 02:11 AM
Sorry if this has come up before, but why don't you just pour concrete into a form for the sump and support platforms? Or sink the sump into the floor?

Seems to me a more integrated solution would be better seeing as it is a bespoke building. You can even tie the forms into the concrete slab.

I really think the foundation type and reinforcements are something you should consult a soil engineer about, that will be the way to determine how much foundation and where.

karimwassef
07/19/2017, 03:21 AM
Sinking the sump was a consideration a while ago, but given the complexity of the slab as it is, and the weight of the other tanks needing support, I felt that it was more prudent to start with the strongest straightest and simplest slab and then build on that.

Going for all concrete forms is also a consideration. But given the complexity so far, I'm actually reconsidering large spill tanks instead. That would reduce the complexity to the load strength of the slab underneath and then the support structure overhead.

I was hoping that an integrated concrete sump would simplify things but it doesn't look like that's achievable... it reduced some difficulty and complexity but created its own.

There is a 1300 gal spill containment tank I'll look at fitting in. I may need two...

Also looking at integrating two of the surge tanks into the display again to reduce the stress immediately under that platform by 50%. It would distribute the weight over the tank instead, but what's another 700gals in a 1600 gal tank?... I can also add more supports under the tank without being cramped by the sump location.

So plenty of redesign coming up.

ericarenee
07/19/2017, 08:14 AM
I'm picking up on the lingo and researching to make sure I ask for the right structure (or asking the right questions) when I talk to a foundation engineer or contractor.

Here's my understanding:

A mat foundation (also called a raft foundation) is basically a flat sheet with deeper structures at the edges of the foundation. It can be reinforced with thicker sections where the high pressure loads are and those sections are tied into the "raft" with rebar and mesh.

The foundation with concrete footers is basically sitting on vertical concrete footers with vertical rebar supporting the heaviest sections of the slab and those are tied into the slab's horizontal rebar - basically heavy duty piers. This allows the rest of the slab to be thinner.

Did I get that right?

My confusion - Dan recommended 12"x12" concrete pillars. Erica recommended footers. What's the difference? Or Dan - did I confuse the slab construction with the vertical pillar construction to hold the tanks up?


You are exactly right . The mat slab can support the weight its basically the same thing as using a footing if done properly..


Using footings in the areas where your heavy tanks will be bring the Block up thru the floor . then pouring concrete slab around them will tie the block into the structure and give it more strength..

The benefits of a a thicker slab and building the tanks on top . you can move things around at a later date.. But you will have to pour the slab the needed thickness all over..

My thinking is it will save you on concrete cost and give you better strength where you need it..

ericarenee
07/19/2017, 08:18 AM
You have it mostly correct. A mat footing can be one solid mat the same thickness throughout, or it can vary in depth due to loading.

A footer that is below ground is like 2 foot wide by 1 foot deep for as long as needed, like the perimeter of your house. They can also be pads, say 4 feet square and 12 inch's deep for a column to sit on.

We were arguing about which foundation is best, and either will work.

I recommended poured columns from the footer or slab going up to hold your water that is 6 foot in the air. I, persoa preference, would go with all concrete construction over block in this application. I do build bUildings and use block everyday and know that it certainly can be done with block, but in my opinion concrete would suit this application better.


yea i think we agree on what each are just disagree on which would be best for this build.. I was thinking in terms of Cost .

but i have not figured concrete for each ..

karimwassef
07/19/2017, 09:05 AM
Ok. I'll model both:

1. A 12" slab with a 12"' skirt all around.
2. A 6" slab with a 12" skirt and 24" deep pillars (12" x 12" area) under the heavy load areas.

I'll use the volume of concrete needed for each to estimate cost.

Is there a particular concrete (2500 psi, etc...) that I should ask for?

Running the rebar up through the slab surface under the heavy loads is good on both foundations. It does limit change later, but that may be ok given the scale.

karimwassef
07/19/2017, 09:27 AM
By "skirt", I mean the edge footer that runs all the way around. I guess this is the same as a raft or mat with footers.

Pictures should make this much clearer. :D

Clowning_Around
07/19/2017, 09:39 AM
If you sunk it in the earth them you would need to consider your water table in the area treating it for hydrostatic pressure like you would for a basement wall. Granted toy would already be treating it on the positive side, you would want to consider the negative side ( n bottom similarly) as well... keeping it elevated is simplest but its not a huge leap of you wanted to recess it into the earth fully or partially. Infact if you need to remove bad soil to get down to sound material, it could save thou from having to replace with compacted fill.... As with most things in life we have options and it just depends.

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karimwassef
07/19/2017, 10:13 AM
Texas clay is unforgiving on subterranean structures. We don't have basements and the classic basement design here is pier and beam. Modern construction is monolithic slab.

Sharpimage
07/19/2017, 12:38 PM
real fast and dirty pricing for S. Florida.
12" mat slab - 12" throughout, no thinner areas- with reinforcing $12 sf
Footer 3'x12" deep $50 lf
4" slab on grade - no real weight on top $7 sf
Pad footer and pier $600 each

Hope it helps the ballpark
Dan

I am sure Texas is different, but should help compare

karimwassef
07/19/2017, 12:59 PM
Are we talking about a pad footer and pier or just reinforcing footers?

I was just going to compare the volume of concrete needed.

Sharpimage
07/19/2017, 02:27 PM
Are we talking about a pad footer and pier or just reinforcing footers?

I was just going to compare the volume of concrete needed.

down here, it is pad footers. the pier does not have enough sf to distribute the load.

karimwassef
07/19/2017, 02:45 PM
Erica - what supports were you thinking under the heavy loads?
I was just thinking 2ft tall, 1ft diameter pillars under the slab... rebar in them tied to the horizontal rebar in the slab.

ph_
07/19/2017, 07:29 PM
When our concrete would get tested from jobs it would test around 25-30 mpa or 3500-4500 psi.
I agree I would do everything out of concrete.

ericarenee
07/19/2017, 08:26 PM
Erica - what supports were you thinking under the heavy loads?
I was just thinking 2ft tall, 1ft diameter pillars under the slab... rebar in them tied to the horizontal rebar in the slab.

I Would make the surface area of the footing larger then column . If your going 12x12 make the footing 24 in sq.10 in deep with Rebar then the colum 12 ..

Similar to the T footing in the image you posted... Hope this makes sense..

Have a Wide foot on the bottom ... Again i would have to look at the local codes and how its done in your area to give exact advise .

Here for a Pillar I did a square hole 18x18 32 inches deep.. rebar at 6 inches above 2 inches of rock.. Pour 12-14 inches of concrete.. Then the pillar or post on top that up to above grade or to height needed.. Then back fill with Rock and compact... Once you pour the slab around the pillars.. its locked into the wide footer at its base and the locked into the slab... it will NEVER MOVE ..

Prob over kill...

i would again pour footings as above.. By the way best way to dig this pillar footing holes is with a 16-18 inch auger bit... Then use concrete block and fill the cavity the vertical rebar is in... You do NOT have to fill all block cavities with mortar ...

karimwassef
07/20/2017, 07:30 AM
ok. I was thinking of something like this... premade forms that are filled in with concrete and rebar pushing up to the slab level and tied in.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/29/4a/d7/294ad769ed00a2f5011a9c13a713c367--building-a-cabin-building-ideas.jpg http://buildingadvisor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Big_Foot-Piers.jpg http://www.extremehowto.com/wp-content/uploads/hotprod_images/f73034ba-aa7e-454a-8ce2-43950577ed80[1].jpg

http://tomtarrant.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/IMG_3427.jpg

or maybe cylinder piers?

http://www.repairfoundation.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/concrete_cylinders_copy1.jpg

I'm graphical, so...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d1/73/96/d173961d46bb2bcdb9ce2caab798d528.jpg

I think you were talking about the last on the right - pier and footing with construction with concrete block like this:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d0/f8/3e/d0f83efee7d839a6a768126c8600720c.jpg

and in my search, I get ads like this claiming to solve all the problems with the methods I'm looking at (LOL):

http://www.warnerfoundationservices.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/DynaPier-Pier-Comparison.jpg

karimwassef
07/20/2017, 09:30 AM
Figured it's good to show the land:

Here's the plot... from the far fence edge to the left to the jump in the fence height on the right:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/EE82EA69-2ED5-47A3-B601-BD6ABA253856_zpsf1iggn0y.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/EE82EA69-2ED5-47A3-B601-BD6ABA253856_zpsf1iggn0y.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo EE82EA69-2ED5-47A3-B601-BD6ABA253856_zpsf1iggn0y.jpg"></a>

Here's the land on the opposite side (hill, wall, fence, trees):

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/079CB8B6-8D3E-47C2-B06B-D34E25668243_zps4myceky3.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/079CB8B6-8D3E-47C2-B06B-D34E25668243_zps4myceky3.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 079CB8B6-8D3E-47C2-B06B-D34E25668243_zps4myceky3.jpg"></a>

The fence sits on a retaining wall starting at the property:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/8FC9EBC5-9608-49F9-ADF8-DEAB9AF6B3ED_zpszfvaomqk.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/8FC9EBC5-9608-49F9-ADF8-DEAB9AF6B3ED_zpszfvaomqk.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 8FC9EBC5-9608-49F9-ADF8-DEAB9AF6B3ED_zpszfvaomqk.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/D551A0B1-9639-45A2-B55E-24B9E48972BF_zpsggpuannf.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/D551A0B1-9639-45A2-B55E-24B9E48972BF_zpsggpuannf.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo D551A0B1-9639-45A2-B55E-24B9E48972BF_zpsggpuannf.jpg"></a>

karimwassef
07/20/2017, 11:14 AM
I've made some changes to the design. Some better, some harsher.

First, reduced the tanks to two and incorporates two into the display. The water weight will still be focused on the back end of the tank but there's 4 columns of cinderblock there.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/0_zpsjqldnvop.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/0_zpsjqldnvop.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpsjqldnvop.jpg"></a>

The settling filter creates interference with the support, but it should be ok. I'll change the blocks to concrete walls tied to the slab later. This is a placeholder.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpsvq6acpyp.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpsvq6acpyp.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsvq6acpyp.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/3_zpsutjts4zi.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/3_zpsutjts4zi.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 3_zpsutjts4zi.jpg"></a>

The harsher change is the raised reservoir:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/4_zps4zoftwo8.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/4_zps4zoftwo8.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4_zps4zoftwo8.jpg"></a>

It's now 9' up!!! Needs redesign but the blocks are creating a lot of weight (1400lbs) vs. the tank alone (4' x 8' x 2' = 500 gal = 4000lbs)

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/5_zpsspplpu33.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/5_zpsspplpu33.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5_zpsspplpu33.jpg"></a>

That may need to go steel ...

Sharpimage
07/20/2017, 01:52 PM
Though about steel for the stands? Think it may be cost affective about this point

karimwassef
07/20/2017, 02:54 PM
That was my last comment on the last post. I think concrete is ok for the short stubby posts. The high platform I'm thinking wood or steel.

It would be convenient to have a second floor in the back room. The room is constructed with a steel frame, so that may be a good brace supported with an elevetated 2x4 & plywood platform.

Clowning_Around
07/20/2017, 04:16 PM
I would do all concrete even more so now... I would avoid steel given the nature of salt creep. soaking of which, you probably want to consider all your reinforcement with epoxy coating for the same reason.

In my opinion, this really does need to be designed by a professional now. I advise you work out your concept but leave the details and final drawings to the pros.


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Clowning_Around
07/20/2017, 04:21 PM
Forgot a side note you mentioned lingo earlier, for when you discuss this with contractors and such. Perhaps it's habit due to the laymen use of the word cinderblock and although it may look the same it is not the same as concreteblock, which if used on your project, I highly suspect it would be the later. Just thought you might want to google it along with your other research. Gluck with your project.

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karimwassef
07/21/2017, 12:21 AM
thanks for the feedback. :)

karimwassef
07/21/2017, 12:33 AM
ok. due to my natural discomfort with concrete, I've decided to simplify and go to mediums I'm more comfortable with. I framed out and installed my in-wall tank and I have 2 x 100 gallons tanks suspended (no supports underneath) on a 2x4 frame with plywood bottoms and 3/8" screw rod into the ceiling joists...

so - since I'm starting from scratch - all I have is a steel frame and a concrete floor (TBD), I decided to go with wood. It's the only medium cheap and strong enough that I'm comfortable with.

so....

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/0_zpsuyblpyvo.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/0_zpsuyblpyvo.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpsuyblpyvo.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpsybteiv92.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpsybteiv92.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsybteiv92.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/2_zpswidwgawh.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/2_zpswidwgawh.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2_zpswidwgawh.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/3_zpsqqm6yyli.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/3_zpsqqm6yyli.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 3_zpsqqm6yyli.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/4_zpsmc1hulpw.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/4_zpsmc1hulpw.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4_zpsmc1hulpw.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/5_zpsd5hv5qrq.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/5_zpsd5hv5qrq.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5_zpsd5hv5qrq.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/6_zps0hdxcuan.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/6_zps0hdxcuan.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6_zps0hdxcuan.jpg"/></a>

The 2x12 joists will do the heavy lifting. The span is 18' with a center brace at 8' from the right end.

I had to raise the reservoir even further to get the front joist to clear the surge containers (getting them in position is possible now).

The platform for the surge tanks will only need to handle two tanks - so that's 650gallons = 5500lbs. The platform is 3'x8' and I've doubled up on the vertical studs.

Yes - the center wood support will be in water and so the whole thing will be epoxied before assembly, and yes - that one section will not be bolted into the concrete foundation.

And no more concrete sump - going with large plastic basins.

It was a pain feathering it out to this level, but I felt it was necessary... even though the project is still months away.

But now I can calculate the load on the slab and get back to making sure it can handle the weight without cracking.

karimwassef
07/21/2017, 12:37 AM
I still need to add some of the cross-beams and skin it with waterprood drywall/toughrock or cement backerboard

karimwassef
07/21/2017, 12:42 AM
and in case anyone wants to know what the containers are:

https://www.ntotank.com/1300gallon-norwesco-black-opentop-containment-tank-x8829122

https://www.ntotank.com/625gallon-acerotomold-white-opentop-containment-tank-x9873974

https://www.ntotank.com/400gallon-crmi-natural-white-cylindrical-open-top-tank-x6907055

https://www.ntotank.com/325gallon-acerotomold-white-opentop-containment-tank-x8666939

and still considering this for the raised reservoir... so cheap, hard to resist: https://www.ntotank.com/200gallon-crmi-natural-white-rectangular-open-top-tank-x5272244

and it would reduce the burden on the frame (200 gals instead of 500)

karimwassef
07/21/2017, 12:48 AM
the structure's frame is designed to handle 90mph winds so the steel/glass panels are 4' x 6' on the sides (for reference)

karimwassef
07/21/2017, 10:44 PM
I had to go back to the drawing board after completing the wood frame. The loads were still too high.

So - I increased the cinderblock support under the display tank and changed the frame into a box room with 8 ceiling joists (2x12s) that span the 20' room. I also added headers, cripples, noggins and double studs where I wanted more strength. I put the "submerged" center supports in a plastic box with concrete and epoxy to seal. I don't think it's necessary, but I decided to keep it in.

The weight is now distributed across a much larger surface area and the load stresses have all dropped under 10psi. There are only two heavy spots - one under the display tank back (where the in-tank surge tanks are). This is ~ 10psi. The rest is 6 psi or much lower.

With a highly localized load region, I'd like to throw out an option for a thicker slab in the middle (18" thick) while keeping the rest at 6"...

Erica - please look at my framing - I'm deep in your territory here. :D

Oh - the 12" slab first quote came is at $20,000 - for the slab only... no structure.

So - picture to follow:

karimwassef
07/21/2017, 10:52 PM
Here's the view from underneath... the green wood is going to be tied to the concrete slab.
The sides will be screwed into the steel frame or connected to sides that will be.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/8_zpscql7q6zc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/8_zpscql7q6zc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 8_zpscql7q6zc.jpg"/></a>

I know this is hard to see, so I'll try to take more shots to make it easier to see errors or improvements.

here it is without the plywood platforms:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/4_zpsurdpohbi.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/4_zpsurdpohbi.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4_zpsurdpohbi.jpg"/></a>

and this shows the steel frame around the room:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/3_zpsxlati9bj.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/3_zpsxlati9bj.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 3_zpsxlati9bj.jpg"/></a>

and here it is skinned with 0.42" 30x60 Hardiebacker board:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/5_zps6cilco4r.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/5_zps6cilco4r.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5_zps6cilco4r.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/6_zpsma6zpkjl.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/6_zpsma6zpkjl.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6_zpsma6zpkjl.jpg"/></a>

and here's I get from a loading:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/000_zpsztonvbsf.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/000_zpsztonvbsf.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 000_zpsztonvbsf.jpg"/></a>

with the concept of the different slab thicknesses:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/7_zpsdx2fq14v.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/7_zpsdx2fq14v.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 7_zpsdx2fq14v.jpg"/></a>

the slab is 6". the skirt is 2' (30" total) deeper and 1' wide. the thickened area is 1' deeper (18" total) in the middle.

so here's the "proposed" thickened areas:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpsatrtqe6a.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpsatrtqe6a.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsatrtqe6a.jpg"/></a>

karimwassef
07/21/2017, 10:55 PM
I realize it can be exhausting to look at all this - (imagine going through the design and drawing)... I really do appreciate the help.

karimwassef
07/21/2017, 11:10 PM
Here's the little plastic bucket I'm planning of filling with concrete and epoxy so the wood studs can have central bracing

https://www.ntotank.com/30gallon-chemtainer-white-polyethylene-rectangular-opentop-tank-x4370287

karimwassef
07/21/2017, 11:26 PM
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/0_zpsvv5zvoaz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/0_zpsvv5zvoaz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpsvv5zvoaz.jpg"/></a>

so.. since my highest pressure (except one region) is now <868 lb/ft2 (6psi), I should be able to get away with 6" thickness...

The two back legs of the tank are at 1360lb/ft2.. that would require 16", but it's a pretty small region. Maybe two pillars right there would be a reasonable solution?

(that assumes that the wood framing is able to distribute the weight as expected).

so - maybe:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/11_zpsgoynp7yw.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/11_zpsgoynp7yw.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 11_zpsgoynp7yw.jpg"/></a>

Clowning_Around
07/22/2017, 07:39 AM
Based on your graphic out looks like your using what's referred too as a pre-engineered metal building. If thats the case I would not connect your framing to it, instead I would leave it independent right inside. P.E.M.B. are designed extremely tight with little safety factor right up to code minimums with high deflection numbers (like L/180 vs L/600). It's for these reasons why they are so efficient and economical, especially for there intended purpose. If you connect your structure, and its designed such that it can take the load it will likely still have a lot of movement which will telegraph through and given the nature of glass could be a bad thing quick. For example this is a common challenge with these type structures when brick veneeres are desired, the P.E.M.B. engineer says its fine because it meets code minimums for (safety) but doesnt meet the architects minimum needs (aesthetics) so the brick cracks (aesthetics) from movement but doesnt fall (safety). My point is these type of structures are designed to resist minimum wind loads etc, but that doesnt mean they wont have a lot of movement doing so, so don't tie into the shell rather remain independent with you critical structure.


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karimwassef
07/22/2017, 09:44 AM
Actually the steel frame is prefabricated but the wind and snow load are custom inputs. As I increase wind load, the number of vertical and horizontal steel members changes and so does the cost.

The current structure is designed to 90mph loads but I've run it up to 150 to see what changes. It's also not "cheap",:D

Current design is ~ $13K

https://www.versatube.com/design-your-own/?id=151529

I've been looking at others who have put them up with videos on YouTube and researching bad reviews, etc... so far, it looks like a decent product.

Basically I built a wood room inside a steel room. Both should be solid... but I don't have to tie them together, I guess. Need to give it more thought.

As far as wind loading... the weather in Dallas is from the south, so 95% of the time, it's coming straight north facing the front glass doors on the smaller 25' face. This was intentional so the long axis of the structure lines up with this flow.

karimwassef
07/22/2017, 09:45 AM
Any feedback on the structures or slab? I love autocorrect.

karimwassef
07/22/2017, 11:22 AM
I can increase the snow load to 75lbs and the wind load to 175mph

https://www.versatube.com/design-your-own/?id=153039

It's $5K more and the frame weight has increased too to 5700lbs but it's distributed over the perimeter so it should be fine. The panels go from 4' x 6' to 4'x4' (need to double check final dims) so that's a little less light.

it may be worth it. I'll have to redraw the structure.

Sharpimage
07/22/2017, 02:56 PM
You are going to need a building permit to build this. Which means an architect and engineer to design it. You could run the numbers a thousand ways, but in the end an engineer is going to have to stamp it and put his name on it. Which means he will design it the way he wants. You have a good start, but you are wasting your time trying to fine tune it at this point. You have the basics correct, bit the engineer will have the final say. Just trying to save you some time. It is clear you have put in quite a bit.

Sharpimage
07/22/2017, 02:58 PM
Also, just for reference, the safety factor in s Florida is typically 3. So your loads and requirements go way up

karimwassef
07/22/2017, 03:03 PM
Actually, since it's not a residential area and it is more than 10' from the house, it needs a detached garage permit only. And since the garage comes pre-engineered with documentation for the city permit, I really don't need anything else. The slab will be built to the engineering drawings from the garage manufacturer or greater.

Check out their site... it's great!

There's no permitting for the ability to hold an aquarium or tanks inside it... that's all part of my private use of the garage. So the only variables are (1) whether the wood framing and cinderblock will carry and distribute the weight of the tanks to the slab and (2) if the slab is solid and will support the load.

And those two are what I'm looking for feedback on at this point :D

Sharpimage
07/22/2017, 03:52 PM
Ok. Wood is not my forte, so I can not comment. Seems like a lot of weight for a wood structure though.

Clowning_Around
07/22/2017, 06:34 PM
Actually the steel frame is prefabricated but the wind and snow load are custom inputs. As I increase wind load, the number of vertical and horizontal steel members changes and so does the cost.

YEP same difference


The current structure is designed to 90mph loads but I've run it up to 150 to see what changes. It's also not "cheap",:D
yea 90, 150 etc but at what importance factor and deflection value? Meaning 90mph hits building it racks building 2 feet out of plumb that can be considered ok with some criteria bit thats not what you want obviously.

And 13k while it may sound like a lot of money, for a steel structure this size it is cheap, price it with conventional steel...



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Clowning_Around
07/22/2017, 06:38 PM
I forgot to mention the 13k includes the engineering for this type, so with regard to my comment you have to compare the conventional steel and the applicable portion of the engineers design fee to get a true apples to apples.

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Clowning_Around
07/22/2017, 06:42 PM
You are going to need a building permit to build this. Which means an architect and engineer to design it. You could run the numbers a thousand ways, but in the end an engineer is going to have to stamp it and put his name on it. Which means he will design it the way he wants. You have a good start, but you are wasting your time trying to fine tune it at this point. You have the basics correct, bit the engineer will have the final say. Just trying to save you some time. It is clear you have put in quite a bit.I agree work on your concept and drive how you want big picture things done and discuss them with your designers, they may even propose some alternate ways that save money adding to the value of their involvement. Just nail down the aspects that are really important to you like x clearance under a tank and not so much about how thick a slab is etc..

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karimwassef
07/22/2017, 08:04 PM
Ok. So going through the last few weeks, I've changed the support structure to reduce the load stresses by a third. I've redesigned the tank flow and given up a foot of tank (140 gals) to do this. I've also worked out a conventional wood structure that is used to carry the weight of a house. The ceiling joist, stud and rafter design is used in my current house and carries the complete weight of two floors and the roof.

If it wasn't for your help, I would still have an unwieldy and overstressed design. So - thank you.

So - I'm an engineer myself and I've built and helped build large projects before. I tend to design, analyze and calculate way ahead of the execution date to get as much input and learn as much as possible.

I haven't actually built my house with my own hand (it was a custom), but I worked with the engineers, architects and the building contractors to get what I want. I designed it on a blank page starting with easements and build line restrictions (just as I'm doing here). Having gone through that and helped others with actual building, I'm not easily intimidated. While the architect gave it his blessing, and tweaked a few variables- my design was basically unchanged.

I am personally disappointed by contractors and firms who are willing to charge exorbitant profit for work that I've already done. I'll continue to look for a structural engineer I can trust and work with, but I'm not giving up.

karimwassef
07/22/2017, 08:28 PM
Now - back to the design. :D (just needed to get that last bit off my chest)

On the slab, assuming that I have calculated the pressures correctly, would that slab thickness support the loads? If not, I'll go for the individual pillar designs. I just thought the modulated slab thickness would be cheaper since I got the heaviest load in one zone, but still made it uniform.

On the pillars- these have a foot diameter at the top but the load "point" on the slab is actually made up of 4 cinder blocks side by side ~ 30" x 15". Would I need two pillars for each of these 4 block regions or would one work?

On the framing and loading: there are five loads:

1. The tank: the tank is unusual because it has a load on one side that is substantially higher than the other. I made the extreme assumption that the blocks there will need to support that load (worst case). This is because the weight is actually passed through the sides to the tank floor (3" of stacked plywood) onto the blocks below. I am supporting it with 8 cinderblocks side by side. I think this will work - but that's one concern.

2. The surge tanks (drums). I'm using the same framing construction I used in my current tank (4' x 8') for this narrow stress point (3' x 8') with 2x4s and plywood. It's close to the ground and tied into the green lumber (on two sides) that will be attached to the foundation. I do need to leave a wide opening (5') for the settling tank underneath and that's worrisome, but with horizontal 2x4s on their side at the top, I think it'll distribute fine.

3. The raised reservoir. This 500 gallon tank is where I went with heavy framing support that should hold up a house. Traditional 2x4 studs with 2x12 joists should be more than enough based on my experience. I'm using 4 (! )joists to span the 20' and then 2x4s at 16" or less to bring the weight to them, with a plywood base on top. I think it's overkill actually but I'm open to feedback. The "leg" in the water is more overkill and I'm hoping Erica or others will say it's not needed.

4. The raised IBCs are similar weight and height so I used the same design as the reservoir. I did put these almost back to back so the weight distribution in around the thick slab area.

5. The sump is now all plastic containers on the concrete floor. The weight distribution is proportional to water level and at 20", it was minimal... anyone with a tank in their house is doing more, especially if they're putting it on a stand with feet.

karimwassef
07/22/2017, 08:35 PM
on attached wood to steel. It may be that the steel deflects the wood, or that the wood stabilized and supports the steel. The steel is skinned with steel and has ribs between the 6' sections so I don't think there is a foot of deflection ( :D )... but there will be some.

I need to have an internal wall anyway, so the wood frame was going to happen all along. The only question is whether tying the two together is a net stabilizing design element or if it will just transfer the wind live loading and create dynamic stresses on the wood frame that's holding up the raised tanks. Given that the steel is there to protect from the elements, and the wood frame supports the guts, I'm ok allowing the two to move independently - like a snail with a hard shell that moves independent of the soft squishy parts instead - except the soft parts have a skeleton too.

karimwassef
07/22/2017, 08:40 PM
maybe I should start a new thread for the wood frame? The display tank is the only part with cinderblocks now and the only concrete is the foundation.

karimwassef
07/24/2017, 12:09 PM
here's a nice tool for calculating what 2x12 joists can handle

http://www.awc.org/codes-standards/calculators-software/spancalc

Vinny Kreyling
07/24/2017, 05:32 PM
Karim, Looking @ the pic of the proposed thickened areas -- The 2 narrow 7' lengths would make me nervous because if for some reason things don't line up exactly you will have a failure point. Better to make them wider for a safety factor. IMHO anyway.

karimwassef
07/24/2017, 06:17 PM
agreed. That's why I've gone a redesign with the weight distributed more, but also grouped into the center

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/11_zpsgoynp7yw.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/11_zpsgoynp7yw.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 11_zpsgoynp7yw.jpg"/></a>

Now the slab is 6" with a deeper perimeter and a deeper section in the middle 14' x 19'

Vinny Kreyling
07/24/2017, 06:46 PM
Better Boss

karimwassef
07/24/2017, 09:53 PM
It was painful but getting all loads under 530 lb/ft2 was worth it.

I still need to get a quote for the slab with the deeper section.

mkobu
07/27/2017, 02:50 AM
Sinking the sump was a consideration a while ago, but given the complexity of the slab as it is, and the weight of the other tanks needing support, I felt that it was more prudent to start with the strongest straightest and simplest slab and then build on that.

Going for all concrete forms is also a consideration. But given the complexity so far, I'm actually reconsidering large spill tanks instead. That would reduce the complexity to the load strength of the slab underneath and then the support structure overhead.

I was hoping that an integrated concrete sump would simplify things but it doesn't look like that's achievable... it reduced some difficulty and complexity but created its own.

There is a 1300 gal spill containment tank I'll look at fitting in. I may need two...

Also looking at integrating two of the surge tanks into the display again to reduce the stress immediately under that platform by 50%. It would distribute the weight over the tank instead, but what's another 700gals in a 1600 gal tank?... I can also add more supports under the tank without being cramped by the sump location.

So plenty of redesign coming up.



Earlier you mentioned a "Jacuzzi" for a comparison for the sump... Why not actually use one or a swim spa?
May sound crazy or dumb but you can get hot tubs free on Craigslist daily.... Fish safe, definitely holds water and Pre-plumbed.... Lol


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mkobu
07/27/2017, 02:53 AM
down here, it is pad footers. the pier does not have enough sf to distribute the load.



Shouldn't he be using 3500lb. Fibermesh concrete?


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mkobu
07/27/2017, 03:21 AM
Here's the view from underneath... the green wood is going to be tied to the concrete slab.
The sides will be screwed into the steel frame or connected to sides that will be.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/8_zpscql7q6zc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/8_zpscql7q6zc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 8_zpscql7q6zc.jpg"/></a>

I know this is hard to see, so I'll try to take more shots to make it easier to see errors or improvements.

here it is without the plywood platforms:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/4_zpsurdpohbi.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/4_zpsurdpohbi.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4_zpsurdpohbi.jpg"/></a>

and this shows the steel frame around the room:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/3_zpsxlati9bj.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/3_zpsxlati9bj.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 3_zpsxlati9bj.jpg"/></a>

and here it is skinned with 0.42" 30x60 Hardiebacker board:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/5_zps6cilco4r.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/5_zps6cilco4r.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5_zps6cilco4r.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/6_zpsma6zpkjl.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/6_zpsma6zpkjl.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6_zpsma6zpkjl.jpg"/></a>

and here's I get from a loading:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/000_zpsztonvbsf.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/000_zpsztonvbsf.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 000_zpsztonvbsf.jpg"/></a>

with the concept of the different slab thicknesses:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/7_zpsdx2fq14v.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/7_zpsdx2fq14v.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 7_zpsdx2fq14v.jpg"/></a>

the slab is 6". the skirt is 2' (30" total) deeper and 1' wide. the thickened area is 1' deeper (18" total) in the middle.

so here's the "proposed" thickened areas:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpsatrtqe6a.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpsatrtqe6a.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsatrtqe6a.jpg"/></a>



Hi

No heavy professional in this so I don't know the scientific specs ...but have You considered using aluminum for your structure like that used for pool cages, screen rooms etc? It is lighter than wood and stronger and can be cost effective.. Plus always straight and never warped, won't rust, and heck of lot less weight.... I also live in Florida and build screen rooms etc.
possibly not strong enough for your intentions but worthy of asking your engineers....



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mkobu
07/27/2017, 03:25 AM
I can increase the snow load to 75lbs and the wind load to 175mph

https://www.versatube.com/design-your-own/?id=153039

It's $5K more and the frame weight has increased too to 5700lbs but it's distributed over the perimeter so it should be fine. The panels go from 4' x 6' to 4'x4' (need to double check final dims) so that's a little less light.

it may be worth it. I'll have to redraw the structure.



Do you get hit by hurricanes in your area?


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karimwassef
07/27/2017, 09:10 AM
No hurricanes but occasaional tornados

But if that hits- only concrete and steel remain .. steel being twisted

karimwassef
07/27/2017, 09:18 AM
I liked concrete because of its long term durability. But this thread showed me that it wasn't practical for tall narrow structures (skyscrapers might disagree :) ) without extensive engineering worth more than the structure.

I'm still reeling from the cost estimates for the slab... best I have found was $13k for a 6" at 49' x 25' (1000 sqft) with a 12" deeper rectangular section (200sqft) in the middle.

I probably spend 40 hours of personal time redesigning the structure so I could put all the weight into that small outline and distribute the load to less than 550lb/ft2.

I need better access to real construction contractors and better structural engineers. The guys that do residential projects expect a 50%+ profit margin even on projects that'll cost over $10k. And those home advisor and Angie's sites are hit and miss, mostly miss at this point.

karimwassef
07/27/2017, 09:20 AM
I want a glass side tank..
for the sumps, I'm getting open top tanks. I'll look at jacuzzis for free but I need long narrow structures to fit in my cramped room.

karimwassef
07/27/2017, 11:50 AM
Also going with wood under the DT

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/6_zpsirsgc1rk.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/6_zpsirsgc1rk.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6_zpsirsgc1rk.jpg"></a>

Concrete may be more robust but it's heavy and takes a lot of work. The cinderblocks needed to adequately distribute the load of the DT were nearly 300... so a massive painful waste of time. I'll probably enclose the wood in plywood all around and the epoxy the whole thing.

karimwassef
07/27/2017, 11:52 AM
Here's the reduced slab at $13,000 (just slab - not concrete walkways)

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/2_zps55bwhfbb.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/2_zps55bwhfbb.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2_zps55bwhfbb.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/8_zpsqzl3hfem.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/8_zpsqzl3hfem.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 8_zpsqzl3hfem.jpg"></a>

karimwassef
07/27/2017, 11:54 AM
The cinderblocks did make it into the tank though :)

Need to carry that vertical tank's 3500lbs of weight. But if I get a lot of concern again, maybe I'll go wood and epoxy there too.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/5_zpsdcvkcxti.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/5_zpsdcvkcxti.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5_zpsdcvkcxti.jpg"></a>

karimwassef
09/08/2017, 12:32 AM
I've gone all wood.. but still thought I'd share this

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/IjikcTxMiak" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6bpwnzfsuQQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/adgJACNfkkQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

My two cinderblock tall sump doesn't seem so crazy.. :D