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Shark.Bait
08/05/2017, 12:27 AM
Hello all, I recently moved for school and of course had to set up a nano tank while I'm out here. This time around I decided to do a bit of an experiment instead of your standard build.

1. Everything in the tank will be aquacultured. Rock, fish and coral will all come from aquaculture sources.
2. I also plan to be away from the tank for some time, so water changes won't be possible. I'm going no skimmer, no water changes, no fuge, no gfo, only dosing and carbon.
3. I'm going to be dosing bleach

For better or for worse, I think it will be an interesting approach and hopefully you can follow my progress!

Equipment list so far:
Nuvo Fusion 25 gallon Lagoon and stand
160 watt Maxspect Razor
Coral Box wifi dosing pump and container
Smart ATO
ESV salt, part 1 and 2, strontium choride and potassium iodide, and T.E. plus
Bleach!

Pics to come

Shark.Bait
08/05/2017, 12:33 AM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170805/7500934ec454b8ffc7490a8c181bd7af.jpg

Supplies have arrived!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170805/645779a53381a1611018457a3b5c3b30.jpg

After about 3 hours of assembling the stand.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170805/c2f47b7331a98385d27606fa18879763.jpg

For no water changes, I overdid it on the ESV by a little. I should have enough for.... forever.


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Radioheadx14
08/05/2017, 07:19 AM
What does bleach do?

WatDatThing
08/05/2017, 04:31 PM
Nice tank. I always like the look of the rimless tank.

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Vinny Kreyling
08/06/2017, 06:29 PM
Believe it or not--
Bob Stark is using bleach in his reef tank.
Small doses in dated increments.
&--everything is still alive!

karimwassef
08/06/2017, 07:03 PM
Sodium hypochlorite releases the active hypochlorine OCl- which is very reactive. It would basically react with and kill any microorganism it encounters but in small doses shouldn't kill the tank. It's a disinfectant.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite

Shark.Bait
08/06/2017, 09:59 PM
As Karim and Vinny have mentioned, I am not the first one to try this and the bleach kills microorganisms. The idea is that it diminishes the count of bacteria in the water column but doesn't kill them all. The theory is it preferentially kills gram negative bacteria which pretty much makes up most of the coral pathogenic types.

In short, it should help clear detritus slightly and prevent bacteria that are involved with RTN. Bob Stark has proven this concept with his mixed reef, I'd like to apply it to a SPS focused tank and see what happens.

karimwassef
08/07/2017, 06:56 AM
Please post in the chemistry forum? I'd love to get the professional chemists' opinions.

I've dosed peroxide but without much measurable benefit. I felt it was safer due to its short half life and the fact that it breaks down into water and oxygen.

The theory that bleach focuses in on gram negative pathogens is interesting. Some of the chemists have exceptional testing skills and might be able to provide some actual video.

Apparently, our own bodies create hypochlorite to kill bacteria ... wow:
https://www.google.com.mx/amp/s/amp.livescience.com/3069-bleach-kills-bacteria.html

karimwassef
08/07/2017, 07:05 AM
Interesting comparison of disinfectants:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1559695/#!po=31.2500

Citric acid anyone? :)

Shark.Bait
08/07/2017, 12:08 PM
Please post in the chemistry forum? I'd love to get the professional chemists' opinions.

I've dosed peroxide but without much measurable benefit. I felt it was safer due to its short half life and the fact that it breaks down into water and oxygen.

The theory that bleach focuses in on gram negative pathogens is interesting. Some of the chemists have exceptional testing skills and might be able to provide some actual video.

Apparently, our own bodies create hypochlorite to kill bacteria ... wow:
https://www.google.com.mx/amp/s/amp.livescience.com/3069-bleach-kills-bacteria.html

Hm, seems to denature the protein, similar to heat. I am by no means a professional chemist but I will relay some information provided by Bob Stark later today in the chemistry section.

jda
08/08/2017, 08:56 AM
I have no doubt that the bleach will do all of those things that a chemist says that it will do. However, how can any of those things provide benefit? Hydrocarbons can do the same thing. Should I be dosing motor oil into my tank in small enough doses? I will be on the lookout for a thread in the chemistry forum, but this sounds a lot like a solution to problems that don't exist. Since when do healthy coral have pathogen issues? ...or too many waterborne bacteria in an oligotrophic environment? It seems that with organic carbon dosing that those pathogens and waterborne bacteria are the first to grow with the increased carbon source, so what studies are out there to say that the organic carbon from the now-dead pathogens and waterborne bacteria killed by the bleach will not just grow more of the same?

Here is some real science that might help. Detritus is not your enemy - it just needs to be exported at some time so that it does not clog up the rocks and sand, but there is no real hurry as long as it is systematic and actually happens. Urine contains nearly all of the phosphates and organics and gives a near-immediate impact into the water column. Dr Holmes Farley studied this for his real job as well as in a reef and has some outstanding posts and papers.

If you are not going to be around very much, you might want to consider just doing this as simple as possible.

BTW - that ESV is going to last a few weeks once the stuff gets growing.

murphreef
08/08/2017, 01:30 PM
Nice lil set up I have the same tank right now and it's just enough to allow me to enjoy the hobby without going over board like I did on my previous tanks lol.

I like how you say you have enough 2 part to last you "forever" haha I was thinking the same thing when I seen your pic!

Enjoy

reefmutt
08/08/2017, 01:51 PM
Curious. Following.
But yes a good question jda asks: if corals are healthy, why do you need to kill gram- bacteria?
I guess it'll oxidize organics, thus reducing the need for the skimmer and or carbon??

jda
08/08/2017, 01:56 PM
I guess it'll oxidize organics, thus reducing the need for the skimmer and or carbon??

If not exported, then it will grow more of the same. Nothing gained.

reefmutt
08/08/2017, 02:25 PM
But how does ozone work? I really don't know.. doesn't it also oxidize compounds?
Do the byproducts from ozone need to be removed? Any similarities between how they work? I'm really no chemist.

jda
08/08/2017, 03:59 PM
Some of the same perceived benefits with ozone and H2O2, but mostly live stuff in the water column getting dealt with... In the end, folks where just chasing higher ORP and thought that it mattered. There are very few that can even tell a difference if they use it, or not, and there are a series of very deep and thoughtful articles by Dr. Holmes-Farley about ORP and Ozone that kinda show you why it is not only not all that necessary, but the benefits are probably more perception than reality. The main actual benefit is a bit clearer water, but activated carbon can do this. The main no-so-real benefit is lower nitrates, but since nothing is exported, the now-dead stuff just enters the N cycle and gets consumed by something else or stays as more N for a net push.

Shark.Bait
08/10/2017, 09:47 PM
Very good points from all! Let's discuss here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=25176422#post25176422

As far as the tank goes, heater and some other odds and ends have been delivered. Still waiting for the sand and lights which should arrive Monday!

danreefman
08/12/2017, 10:51 AM
I like how you stick to your plan. Don't listen to all the chatter. Everytime I listen to people about tank or my business. I head towards failure. Do your thing bro. I'll be following. Nice stand by the way.

karimwassef
08/12/2017, 10:59 AM
new and controversial ideas are easy to break down.

sometimes, through experimentation, we learn things that are non-intuitive and informs completely different avenues of understanding.

I'm personally not going to add bleach - I feel that everything should have a natural basis on real reefs. UV rays and ozone are the primary "disinfectants" in nature - so I'm going to stick with those for now :D

but I'm very excited to learn through your experimentation.

Cheapreef
08/12/2017, 06:47 PM
So your going SPS with no Skimmer, algae scrubber/reactor or any other form of nutrient export other than live rock? And no water changes to boot?
Good luck with that, like to see how it works out in a Nano. I run a Nano 25 gal acutal water volume and can say there is no way I wouldn't run a skimmer and do at min biweekly WC's.

reefmutt
08/12/2017, 07:46 PM
As Karim and Vinny have mentioned, I am not the first one to try this and the bleach kills microorganisms. The idea is that it diminishes the count of bacteria in the water column but doesn't kill them all. The theory is it preferentially kills gram negative bacteria which pretty much makes up most of the coral pathogenic types.

In short, it should help clear detritus slightly and prevent bacteria that are involved with RTN. Bob Stark has proven this concept with his mixed reef, I'd like to apply it to a SPS focused tank and see what happens.

Hey Shark bait. The sharks are circling! :)
Don't get scared away.
I am honestly curious to see how your system does.
Please keep us posted.

jda
08/12/2017, 10:24 PM
I know that you said for better of for worse on dosing the bleach, but now that you found out (in your chemistry thread) that it has very little chance of killing the pathogens like you were thinking and that a skimmer might not be able to remove the organic chlorides that you are creating and they could cause a lot of harm, are you going to dose it anyway? Just curious.

I have seen some successful reefs without forms of nutrient export. The aragonite ends up picking up the slack by binding phosphates until they get full (which can take a year or two). As long as you have a plan for replacing the aragonite or running a lot of GFO, it can work. Nitrate should be no problem if you have enough rock of sand.

Shark.Bait
08/14/2017, 03:00 PM
new and controversial ideas are easy to break down.

sometimes, through experimentation, we learn things that are non-intuitive and informs completely different avenues of understanding.

I'm personally not going to add bleach - I feel that everything should have a natural basis on real reefs. UV rays and ozone are the primary "disinfectants" in nature - so I'm going to stick with those for now :D

but I'm very excited to learn through your experimentation.



Exactly Karim, there's many instances of people scoffing at techniques which later become common place. I'm NOT saying that's the case with bleach, but I've seen success and I'd like to try for myself. I know you've received some of that at your own presentations ;)

I wouldn't bleach my 265g reef! But for me, it'll be some fun to try this on a small scale.

I like how you stick to your plan. Don't listen to all the chatter. Everytime I listen to people about tank or my business. I head towards failure. Do your thing bro. I'll be following. Nice stand by the way.



Thank you. There's no problem with people stating their opinion, I look forward to the discussion!



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Shark.Bait
08/14/2017, 03:16 PM
I know that you said for better of for worse on dosing the bleach, but now that you found out (in your chemistry thread) that it has very little chance of killing the pathogens like you were thinking and that a skimmer might not be able to remove the organic chlorides that you are creating and they could cause a lot of harm, are you going to dose it anyway? Just curious.

I have seen some successful reefs without forms of nutrient export. The aragonite ends up picking up the slack by binding phosphates until they get full (which can take a year or two). As long as you have a plan for replacing the aragonite or running a lot of GFO, it can work. Nitrate should be no problem if you have enough rock of sand.



I don't agree that there's very little chance of bleach oxidizing bacteria in the water. The picture of the bacteria test show a significant difference in waterborne bacteria. It's only one test, but there's many studies available that support this.

The chlorine content added is about .1ppm, with the lowest you'll find in tap water being around .2ppm. So at the moment no, I am not worried about it. However, there are always unknowns, we will see!

There is aragonite, but most of the phosphate/ nitrate control is going to be done through carbon dosing. I really don't want to use GFO but I will if I have to.

Karim's reef is a good example of one with "no" nutrient export, depending on what your definition is.


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jda
08/14/2017, 03:23 PM
How will you be exporting nutrients with carbon dosing with no skimmer? The stuff that you are growing with the carbon will just stay in the tank and be part of the N cycle, again.

You don't believe the chemistry that your bleach will turn into organic chloramines and that organic chloramines don't kill the stuff that you want to kill?

Your test is likely missing the organics that will be there in the water, thus no conversion to organic chloramines.

Cheapreef
08/14/2017, 03:37 PM
Yes there really is no way to Carbon dose and not skim, it's not going to work out well.

Reefiez
08/14/2017, 04:00 PM
^
always believed that you gotta have skimmer for carbon dosing, to remove the nutrients, and also for aeration for any bacterial blooms that depletes the O2 in the tank

Reefiez
08/14/2017, 04:03 PM
oops sorry, he said "dosing and carbon"

i'm guessing he's meaning carbon media rather than carbon dosing.

in that case, good luck!

i believe there's a 0 water change reefing style called Triton, probably worth a little research just for the knowledge if nothing else.

jda
08/14/2017, 04:05 PM
I thought the same thing at first, but he says carbon dosing in post #24.

Shark.Bait
08/14/2017, 06:01 PM
How will you be exporting nutrients with carbon dosing with no skimmer? The stuff that you are growing with the carbon will just stay in the tank and be part of the N cycle, again.

You don't believe the chemistry that your bleach will turn into organic chloramines and that organic chloramines don't kill the stuff that you want to kill?

Your test is likely missing the organics that will be there in the water, thus no conversion to organic chloramines.



Export of bacterial biofloc from carbon dosing will be carried out by mechanical filtration, socks and floss in this case. This is much more effective than skimming.


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Shark.Bait
08/14/2017, 06:02 PM
In other news, some goodies have arrived! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170814/20233f7e9e4068239882f2d26ae87b8f.jpg


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Cheapreef
08/14/2017, 09:25 PM
Export of bacterial biofloc from carbon dosing will be carried out by mechanical filtration, socks and floss in this case. This is much more effective than skimming.


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I don't think you have researched it that well. Here is nice short thread that sums it up in the second post. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1929620

reefmutt
08/14/2017, 10:02 PM
I don't think you have researched it that well. Here is nice short thread that sums it up in the second post. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1929620

So, Why won't mechanical filtration work?
Not fine enough?

Shark.Bait
08/15/2017, 11:55 AM
How will you be exporting nutrients with carbon dosing with no skimmer? The stuff that you are growing with the carbon will just stay in the tank and be part of the N cycle, again.

You don't believe the chemistry that your bleach will turn into organic chloramines and that organic chloramines don't kill the stuff that you want to kill?

Your test is likely missing the organics that will be there in the water, thus no conversion to organic chloramines.


The bacteria generated from carbon dosing assimilate the N and P from the water column and not only can be removed by mechanical filtration, but will also serve as food for coral and other bacteria eating critters which in turn can provide a food source to corals and maybe even fish if the pod population increases. This pathway essentially recycles the inorganic P and N in the water column back into food for fish and corals. As such, less food needs to be added to the tank so there's a mechanism for lowering P and N in the water column.

Carbon dosing in reef aquaria should have been called bioflocculation as it is in the aquaculture industry. There they can control nutrients by putting in less food and have the shrimp or tilapia, as the case may be, take up the slack by eating the detritus formed from adding a carbon source which in aquaculture is usually molasses.

Another source of nutrient depletion from carbon dosing, which doesn't involve a skimmer or even a mechanical filter, is the use of the organic carbon as an energy source for denitrification in the anoxic zones in the tank. Nitrates are lowered without removal of detritus by the dissimilation of nitrate into nitrogen gas which degasses from the aquarium. This is one of the reasons nitrate usually drops proportionately faster than phosphate in a reef tank. Denitrification only lowers nitrate, not phosphate.



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Cheapreef
08/15/2017, 12:42 PM
I'm really curious how you make out on this, but I am very intereseted in your way of thining about this. You say

2. I also plan to be away from the tank for some time, so water changes won't be possible. I'm going no skimmer, no water changes, no fuge, no gfo, only dosing and carbon.

You'll be using filter floss and mech means instead of skimmer. If your away form the tank your filters are going to become plugged very fast with carbon dosing, trust me when I was running filter socks on my tank 3 days they would not flow any water.
So your filter becomes a nitrate factory if left too long. A skimmmer actually removes DOC instead of letting them sit in your tank and become a issue.

reefmutt
08/15/2017, 12:45 PM
In other news, some goodies have arrived! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170814/20233f7e9e4068239882f2d26ae87b8f.jpg


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Keep it commin' :)

Shark.Bait
08/15/2017, 02:57 PM
I'm really curious how you make out on this, but I am very intereseted in your way of thining about this. You say



2. I also plan to be away from the tank for some time, so water changes won't be possible. I'm going no skimmer, no water changes, no fuge, no gfo, only dosing and carbon.



You'll be using filter floss and mech means instead of skimmer. If your away form the tank your filters are going to become plugged very fast with carbon dosing, trust me when I was running filter socks on my tank 3 days they would not flow any water.

So your filter becomes a nitrate factory if left too long. A skimmmer actually removes DOC instead of letting them sit in your tank and become a issue.



I completely agree with you, the mechanical filtration maintenance really needs to be kept up with this tank. The filter socks on this tank aren't the best so my plan is to replace filter floss every few days.

While I'm away I plan to have a friend change out the floss and fill the ato every few days.


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tmantaylor18
08/16/2017, 06:45 PM
Subscribed. Thanks for documenting this interesting approach.

Shark.Bait
08/30/2017, 09:57 PM
Sorry for the slow updates. School keeps me busy! Here's some pics of the tank ready to go. Picked up some coral too!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170831/ea1db3562f64f844698af1a81b3e68f8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170831/b32c54d5e019aab0278c9b0205dba1b4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170831/b26d74afba2191fbdebe24adbf97774b.jpg


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reefmutt
08/31/2017, 07:12 PM
Looking good!
Let's see those corals when you have some time.

Shark.Bait
11/09/2017, 03:27 PM
Hello everyone and sorry for the long absence, dental school is a lot of work! Tank has been on cruise control with no water change from the inception. I have also been keeping true to the bleach dosing schedule. The only inhabitant as of now is a possum wrasse.

Coral has been doing well and no loses so far. Colors are subdued due to an accidental bleaching caused by the light being stuck on, and no measurable NO3 or PO4. My plans for the livestock are to add 2 clownfish of some sort, thatís probably it.

Here are some pics, I know itís not a good looking tank yet!! I went with some biodiversity in coral choices so I could see if this method would effect anything short term. I plan to trade out most of these with SPS frags. I was playing around with a fish eye as well so I apologize for the weird pictures.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/a963475c4fc5581a28332289c04788d2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/aa3ad9bdbb73435369b39bc333c2d97a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/7dcbd1a0d59d2a0138e2227d86167c2f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/0a0425341351eac9b11687da82729764.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/d8f68a8a61275fe74d6b0aaa65166349.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/0a0425341351eac9b11687da82729764.jpg


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Shark.Bait
11/09/2017, 03:29 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/371a9c829d2603fa7d2b4b24883dca32.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/17c4e415d820b15a517e3f77e3820738.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/c09ff8302faf9a50790fab0a8f431bcd.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/c8de7e098925fcfbdb37af64613e43dd.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/b789f2f4f003c8f2a5014492074e7f27.jpg


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Shark.Bait
11/09/2017, 03:35 PM
Iíve also upgraded the stock return pump (211 gph) to the jebao dcs 2000 (520 gph), and added two random flow generator (RFG) nozzles from VCA. The jebao is LOUD but Iím hoping it will settle in. The flow in the tank is so much better and less linear now. Much less dead spots in the tank and the RFG create a wave action. Hopefully, this will help the SPS necrosis you can see in spots.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/f0b53e97dac6f0fc2f13fb3dceccf7ad.jpg


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reefmutt
11/09/2017, 05:44 PM
SO far so good.. yes, corals do look a bit pale or browned out..
Still curious to watch the tank progress.

Shark.Bait
11/09/2017, 07:04 PM
SO far so good.. yes, corals do look a bit pale or browned out..
Still curious to watch the tank progress.

Agreed, they're on their way back at least! I'm curious as well. Part of the problem is it being such a new tank that everything is still settling in and being tweaked.

reefmutt
11/10/2017, 11:59 AM
Absolutely.. agreed. Your tank has a lot of maturing to do..

Shark.Bait
11/16/2017, 03:54 PM
Did a bit of re-scaping. Iíll be away from the tank for 6 weeks. Interested to see what it looks like when I get back!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/f35795491bbf60f3d5fcd6e0e67885ef.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/58c7325031288d0d795ff228d4e26428.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/ea14e6d191b4dc453d9e8fb90289c4dd.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/80934ac40fbb20532908041a718775d8.jpg


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