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Lord,Darth Bane
08/05/2017, 06:53 AM
My current tank seems couldn't keep green SPS, which never bothered me before in previous tanks and green was probably the easiest colour. So I am after some thoughts.

Tank is 3' x 2' x 2'.
Water: KH=8, Ca=400, Mg=1300, NO3 & PO4 undetectable all with Salifer kits.

Ok. Water paras have been stable and nothing really wrong. I probably know the possible causes, which are too strong light and too low nutrient.

I have two Hydra 26HD hanging 9' over water surface and these are the setting. 4 hours max with 4 hours ramping up and 4 hours ramping down.

UV 40
Violet 30
Royal Blue 90
Blue 85
Green 25
Deep Red 30
Cool White 65

Nothing wrong so far? Water being too clean with too low nutrient? Probably, I know. There are not much algae on my rocks except those I believe are biofilms. I have started dosing KZ Xtra Special (3ml every two days) and CV (3 drops every night) since May but these don't really help the green.

The problem that buggers me is that other colours are fine, red, blue, purple.......only green turn pale. Why is that?

I have a refugium but I don't think the marco algae inside use up all the iron as I do 10% water change bi weekly. Should I try dosing iron?

Lets see some photos.

Lord,Darth Bane
08/05/2017, 06:54 AM
This big one has been around a year. Nice grow but pale.

https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/20615616_1603654239666209_4995295001083185939_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=caa1d03cce9f2c8eeb23a17428bff18e&oe=59F9D132

This one I put it in area with lower light too see if too strong lighting was causing the bleaching. OK, pale.

https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/20615795_1603654419666191_144743097729023197_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=1ad9bb7cb98e84f5eb8220c95a41b4ae&oe=59EA9E73

This was a dark green purple frag but as it grows it seems losing the green pigment.

https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/20615928_1603654462999520_7424157441113158338_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=fcec8ac2ce65ca8be518d2b7b759fa58&oe=59EB4609

And this one I just bought 3 weeks ago to see if the problem is still there, and it proves it is.

https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/20626898_1603654322999534_1872373385640809819_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=ebc3bc4e275fa85733d3e5fdb0fd2aa8&oe=5A2E8F39

And this is what it should be (photo from LFS) Greem is losing just in 3 weeks.
https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/20545402_1603666826331617_1923093090884291190_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=e86a913210c5086eeddd0d0e07251ef9&oe=59F9BE97

Scorpius
08/05/2017, 07:49 AM
We need water parameters. Could be a host of issues.

Lord,Darth Bane
08/05/2017, 11:36 AM
Water parameters stated above. KH=8, Ca=400, Mg=1300, NO3 & PO4 undetectable all with Salifer kits

Hentz
08/05/2017, 11:41 AM
Your alk/calcium seem fine for the lower nutrients so I wouldn't think it was an issue with that.

Could just be simply lack of nutrients. How many fish do you have? How often do you feed? I would start by slowly raising up your nitrates a little bit and see how that effects your corals. Or even if you have a heavy export nutrient method, feed a bit more if your system can handle it. I've found that heavy feeding for my Acropora during my ULNS with ZEOvit made them explode in growth and color and the opposite when I slowed down on feeding.

Also, your Cool Whites on the Hydra's are quite high. I'd recommend turning them down to about 25-30% max. I can send you a profile if you'd like that is mock setup from the Ecotech Marine's SPS AB+. I've used it on my Hydra 26HD just before I upgraded and had daily growth on Acropora.

That could simply be your issue right there, your tank may require lower intense lighting. Acropora with low nutrients and lower alkalinity do not tend to be happy with higher intensity. In my tank, raising Cool Whites from 25% to 30% made them incredibly unhappy. Do not let the Cool Whites fool you, they're extremely powerful in LED's.

Lord,Darth Bane
08/05/2017, 12:25 PM
Thanks. I am using the Prodibio method so I think my water is probably too clean. I am going to reduce the dosage and see if it helps.

Will try to reduce the cool white too. May you please post your Hydra setting?

I have a question though. Do green SPS generally prefer dirtier water? I believe lacking of nutrients is a possible cause but why the other colours don't fade as well?

Hentz
08/05/2017, 01:05 PM
Thanks. I am using the Prodibio method so I think my water is probably too clean. I am going to reduce the dosage and see if it helps.

Will try to reduce the cool white too. May you please post your Hydra setting?

I have a question though. Do green SPS generally prefer dirtier water? I believe lacking of nutrients is a possible cause but why the other colours don't fade as well?

That could be it.

Yes, I will send them to your PM in just a few minutes. The guy who made it is on here in the AI Hydra Settings Thread.

And I wouldn't say green do, but all SPS prefer something in the water. Every tank is different and each coral reacts differently to everything.
Lacking nutrients seems to be the cause of your pale corals along with high light intensity. They're starving and releasing zooxanthallae, paling out and eventually dying off. With little to no nutrients and 7-8dKH, your corals will likely not be able to handle the intense lighting.

Running an ULNS is fine as long as you're adding the appropriate amino acids and foods to help them live. You will get a pastel and bright color running lower nutrients due to the release of zooxanthaellae as I mentioned above. However, after running ULNS, I'm realizing I'd rather not run an ULNS but run a system with a little nutrients.

Going the route of reducing nutrients with a Skimmer and Chaeto Reactor instead of a Reactor with ZEOlites stripping my nutrients to nothing. I've had great success with ULNS and ZEOvit. However, I've never had the insane and saturated colors due to the lack of nutrients available for my Acropora, in my opinion.

w3bbo
08/06/2017, 02:51 AM
Many green corals are actually in the process of changing to their 'true' colour.

If you're looking for a more saturated look you need to up your nutrient levels (no3/po4).

Ricardo18
08/06/2017, 04:58 PM
I would not chase % readings for your lights, as there are so many variables on what the actual PAR results are that are hitting your corals.
PAR is what counts. PAR is the bottom line. Go get a meter.300 PAR for SPS is the target.150 for Softies.

reefmutt
08/06/2017, 05:24 PM
I think most of your sps look on the pale side..
I wouldn't touch anything but raise your n and p a bit..
Do you use prodibio's reef booster? it's pretty rich..
or add a couple fish..

jda
08/07/2017, 04:48 PM
Clean water makes for awesome looking SPS - great contrast and pop. I doubt that you are cleaner than the ocean. I am .05-.10N and .005P and everything looks great.

You are not going to want to hear this, but put a few T5 on there. It will help. Although the other pieces are out of focus a bit, their color looks a bit pale too, but perhaps it is just the photos.

Lord,Darth Bane
08/11/2017, 05:34 AM
That could be it.

Yes, I will send them to your PM in just a few minutes. The guy who made it is on here in the AI Hydra Settings Thread.

And I wouldn't say green do, but all SPS prefer something in the water. Every tank is different and each coral reacts differently to everything.
Lacking nutrients seems to be the cause of your pale corals along with high light intensity. They're starving and releasing zooxanthallae, paling out and eventually dying off. With little to no nutrients and 7-8dKH, your corals will likely not be able to handle the intense lighting.

Running an ULNS is fine as long as you're adding the appropriate amino acids and foods to help them live. You will get a pastel and bright color running lower nutrients due to the release of zooxanthaellae as I mentioned above. However, after running ULNS, I'm realizing I'd rather not run an ULNS but run a system with a little nutrients.

Going the route of reducing nutrients with a Skimmer and Chaeto Reactor instead of a Reactor with ZEOlites stripping my nutrients to nothing. I've had great success with ULNS and ZEOvit. However, I've never had the insane and saturated colors due to the lack of nutrients available for my Acropora, in my opinion.

Hi mate may you please check PM? Still haven't got your hydra setting. Thanks.

Horace
08/12/2017, 08:13 PM
Greens are the first and most obvious colors you will lose when nutrients are TOO low. I had this problem in my tank for over a year until I finally figured out the cause. I changed lights several times, added all kinds of additives etc, and finally after just increasing feeding by 2-3x, my colors exploded and growth was out of control. IMO you are much better off having nitrate at 2-5ppm than you are 0. Our tanks are too barren of food to have no nitrate. The nitrate appears to serve as an artificial food source in our closed envs. Back in the day it was advised to strip nitrate/po4 to zero....but when is started looking at tanks my buddies had, one (which was the best tank i have ever seen) had nitrate of 40ppm (it was a barebottom tank). So nitrate is nothing to fear imo, and in many cases actually is helpful to an extent.

Horace
08/12/2017, 08:45 PM
Clean water makes for awesome looking SPS - great contrast and pop. I doubt that you are cleaner than the ocean. I am .05-.10N and .005P and everything looks great.

You are not going to want to hear this, but put a few T5 on there. It will help. Although the other pieces are out of focus a bit, their color looks a bit pale too, but perhaps it is just the photos.

Sorry, but I 100% disagree.

The ocean while having 0/0 it also had a HUGE amount of food available. IMO his corals are starving, and this has little to nothing to do with light. If i had not seen this in my own tank I probably wouldnt think this either. WHich is why I changed lights so many times thinking it had to be lights, and since the ocean had no po4/no3, then my tank certainly wouldnt suffer w/out them. I was dead wrong.

jda
08/12/2017, 09:39 PM
Natural reefs that SPS come from are very much oligotrophic - there is next to no food available. Wherever you read or heard that that is a HUGE amount of food in the ocean is wrong. The corals have to compete for that near zero N and P and very little to filter feed from. There are a lot of tanks that are happy with higher N and P, but the ocean is not one of those places. I have seen a lot of nice tanks with elevated N and P, but the best of the best keep NSW parameters.

ssgss gogeta
08/13/2017, 01:18 AM
I'm gonna agree and disagree with the natural ocean and sps with low n and p. Agree the natural ocean has low n and p, however where the coral is has high density fish life there has to be some localized increase in nutrients on the reef compared to the general measurements of the ocean.

Second I have corals taken from the reef that looked bland and after 6 months in a reef tank with 2.5-5n and 0.03phos absolutely blossom as far as color and pe, much more than it did in the ocean. It looked like a completely different acro


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Horace
08/13/2017, 08:59 AM
Natural reefs that SPS come from are very much oligotrophic - there is next to no food available. Wherever you read or heard that that is a HUGE amount of food in the ocean is wrong. The corals have to compete for that near zero N and P and very little to filter feed from. There are a lot of tanks that are happy with higher N and P, but the ocean is not one of those places. I have seen a lot of nice tanks with elevated N and P, but the best of the best keep NSW parameters.That may be true, however IMHO most tanks with zero N and P look very unhealthy.

For me chasing zero N and P was harmful and pointless. Within weeks of feeding more and allowing N and P to elevate a bit my corals grew like mad and went from pastel to eyepopping colors. So while some may have success with it...I won't ever try to do that again. IMO it's pointless

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jda
08/13/2017, 10:21 AM
I agree that lower N and P tanks are probably not for everybody and folks can have great results otherwise. I just think that it is important to know that the ocean where acropora come from DO NOT have nutrients and to inform folks that if they have heard otherwise, then it is not accurate... it matters on some level.

I am a LN guy... not ULN. I don't see the point in ULN either.

I do find that the acros will grow quite a bit faster with P under .01, but there are lots of articles and studies that discuss calcification being easier with low P. I have also found that coralline stops growing much above .2 or .3... which some people might be totally happy with.

Lord,Darth Bane
08/13/2017, 11:43 PM
Greens are the first and most obvious colors you will lose when nutrients are TOO low. I had this problem in my tank for over a year until I finally figured out the cause. I changed lights several times, added all kinds of additives etc, and finally after just increasing feeding by 2-3x, my colors exploded and growth was out of control. IMO you are much better off having nitrate at 2-5ppm than you are 0. Our tanks are too barren of food to have no nitrate. The nitrate appears to serve as an artificial food source in our closed envs. Back in the day it was advised to strip nitrate/po4 to zero....but when is started looking at tanks my buddies had, one (which was the best tank i have ever seen) had nitrate of 40ppm (it was a barebottom tank). So nitrate is nothing to fear imo, and in many cases actually is helpful to an extent.

Great feedback. I agree that ultra low N P could not be a problem IF the corals get the nutrient from other sources. Eg being fed constantly by planktons. They are presented in the ocean which our systems lack of.



I have been dosing KZ Xtra Special and feeding for 3 months but not much improvement. There are only 4 fish in the tank and I donít want to add a lot more.



What else should I try? How about dosing AA? As the Xtra Special contains AA so I havenít dosed extra AA. But I wonder if Xtra Special could substitute AA.



There is a bottle of BWA Restor left. Maybe I will add this as well.



Generally I do not worry about PO4 being too low. I tried not to really heavy feeding as I am afraid the increase PO4 would go into the rocks and cause algae problem later. Shall I try dosing NO3 alone?



I could not find KNO3 locally. How about those nitrogen fertilizers for plants? I could get one with higher N and low P and K ratioÖ.

reefmutt
08/14/2017, 06:06 AM
A readily available source of kno3 is Seachem Flourish Nitrogen. It is for freshwater planted tanks. I have used it extensively over the years for nitrate additions. Works great.
Not particularly concentrated or cheap but easy to find.

Lord,Darth Bane
08/14/2017, 09:02 AM
Thanks. How long does it take to see SPS get back the colours after NO3 has reached 2-5ppm?

After a week of even heavier feeding, and adding 2ml of N fertilizer and 1x Reef Booster yesterday. I just check the NO3 is 5ppm today (with Salifer kit).

I will keep an eye on and check again to see how fast does the NO3 got used up.

reefmutt
08/14/2017, 09:57 AM
It really depends on the tank and the coral, I would say. Some may respond within a week and some may take many weeks. You may see growth before colour as well..
Just be careful. If your additions have made it jump to 5ppm in a week, it may still be on the rise. I would back off on the extra additions and watch n.
What you've added may have done more than just maintain 5ppm, it may still be on the rise. You'll need to test regularly to establish the trend.

Horace
08/14/2017, 11:23 AM
Adding chems works but is unnecessary. More fish, and higher bioload will do it. You can control excess many ways, so dialing up feeding is the easiest/best way I'm.

Don't expect a miracle overnight with the no3, but I would expect in a month or so you should see some pretty significant difference

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Lord,Darth Bane
08/20/2017, 12:10 PM
Update:

As suggested, I finally got a Salifer Potassium test kit today, and checked the tank level twice, 330ppm and 310ppm respectively. I thought it should be higher.....

Checked the freshly made saltwater as well, 1.025 with TM Pro Reef, K level is 310ppm only.......

Could this be an issue causing the pale SPS? Looks like I need to start dosing K?

Thanks.

dancewithethan
08/20/2017, 11:42 PM
Looks like your coral have LED light syndrome. I can never grow any SPS or LPS under led light. after a year of trying I finally went back to T5. wow, what a different it has made on my corals.

Good luck

Lord,Darth Bane
08/21/2017, 09:14 AM
Update:

For the amount of K I need to raise I decide to use powder than liquid form of K supplement so I bought the BWA Potassion P, which is KCl and K2SO4.

Direction stated that 1g of powder in 1 USG would raise 129ppm.

So for my 300L system, 1g raise 1.633ppm.

From 320ppm to 380ppm I need to raise about 60ppm.

My 300L system would need 36g to raise 60ppm.

I dissolved 36g of Potassion P in 400ml of water to create a solution, which 10ml of the solution would raise 1.5ppm in the system.

It is said that the maxium dosage is to raise 10ppm of K per day.

I decide to dose 50ml of the solution to raise 7.5ppm per day.

By the time that the 400ml solution is finished the K level of the tank should be around 380ppm.

Lets see if this help. :)

Horace
08/22/2017, 09:07 PM
K was one of the things I dosed too when my greens suffered. Was a waste of time and money. It didn't help one bit. Trust me....just FEED

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biecacka
08/23/2017, 12:53 PM
side not......Kurt, any good LFS in Atlanta worth checking out? Im coming down to Tucker this weekend from Columbus Ohio.

corey

Horace
08/23/2017, 02:50 PM
I'm somewhat new to the area, but Pure Reef is a nice store. One that is less pristine, but typically good selection is Atlanta Aquarium (not THE Atlanta Aquarium of course lol)

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biecacka
08/23/2017, 03:59 PM
Cool, I'll try to check them out between my golf rounds! :lol:
I doubt I'll be buying much as I'm driving back and don't want to try to keep anything alive while on vacation.

Sorry to derail the thread..

Corey

Lord,Darth Bane
08/28/2017, 12:07 PM
Update:

Guess I have finally figured another main problem. :mixed:

The PO4 level was always undetectable with Salifert kit, that's why I haven't tested it for months.

After adding more fish, feeding more and raising NO3 from 0ppm to 3ppm, I expected PO4 would increase as well. Being curious and a bit afraid of PO4 level getting too high, I decided to get a Hanna 736 Phosphorus ULR checker.

It arrived today and the result is 0! :eek:

Couldn't believe. Check it again, and 0 again. :eek: :eek:

Still couldn't believe. Maybe bad reagent? Check again but use the dropper that I feed coral to get the tank water in order to add some "contaminant". OK, it shows 104. So the checker is working.

Thoughts?

I still believe that my water was too clean "lack of nutrients" which caused the pale colours. I would keep feeding and I intend to raise the phosphorus level to 10ppb (x3.066/1000= 0.03ppm PO4).

I don't know why the PO4 level is that low. Prodibio being too strong? I have already reduced dosage for a month. Rowa? I only use 50ml for 300L. I would stop using it after this August.

https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21077605_1628198993878400_3301380432873071296_n.jpg?oh=03a7ae41203d1211e2369ed721a2f8b6&oe=5A2FED1F

Horace
08/28/2017, 01:55 PM
Update:

Guess I have finally figured another main problem. :icon_eek:

The PO4 level was always undetectable with Salifert kit, that's why I haven't tested it for months.

After adding more fish, feeding more and raising NO3 from 0ppm to 3ppm, I expected PO4 would increase as well. Being curious and a bit afraid of PO4 level getting too high, I decided to get a Hanna 736 Phosphorus ULR checker.

It arrived today and the result is 0!:surprised

Couldn't believe. Check it again, and 0 again. :surprised :surprised

Still couldn't believe. Maybe bad reagent? Check again but use the dropper that I feed coral to get the tank water in order to add some "contaminant". OK, it shows 104. So the checker is working.

Thoughts?

I still believe that my water was too clean "lack of nutrients" which caused the pale colours. I would keep feeding and I intend to raise the phosphorus level to 10ppb (x3.066/1000= 0.03ppm PO4).

I don't why the PO4 level is that low. Prodibio being too strong? I have already reduced dosage for a month. Rowa? I only use 50ml for 300L. I would stop using it after this August.

https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21077605_1628198993878400_3301380432873071296_n.jpg?oh=03a7ae41203d1211e2369ed721a2f8b6&oe=5A2FED1FI told you :)

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Lord,Darth Bane
08/28/2017, 07:48 PM
I told you :)

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:thumbsup: :lol2: Looks like I need to feed more frozen food to add some PO4. :lol2: Or Pappone meal? :lol2:

vakeros
08/28/2017, 08:01 PM
My case reduce flow to my rowa fr help

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Horace
09/01/2017, 11:41 AM
[emoji106] [emoji38]2: Looks like I need to feed more frozen food to add some PO4. [emoji38]2: Or Pappone meal? [emoji38]2:It really doesn't matter what u feed, just feed about double for a few weeks and keep watching

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