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Newms118
08/07/2017, 07:09 PM
So i have a flame angel in QT. It had a serious case of the twitches with no obvious sign of anything. I formalin dipped it before it went into the QT. So I did a round of treatment with NLS Ich Shield and Prazipro. Its on the third round of PP and every now and then the fish will give a slight twitch. Its not scratching or flashing. So whats the deal with twitching, is it always a sign that the disease is still present. Do flame angels or other types of fish twitch for no real reason from time to time?

Newms118
08/16/2017, 07:43 PM
So right now the flame angel has been treated with NLS ich shield and prazipro. Im changing out the water to remove the PP since its time and im adding back in the ich shield. The flame angel doesnt seem to want to eat now. It will go up to food really excited, peck at it a few times, take a few bites and then just ignore it. Im confused now, I have no idea if the fish is actually still sick or even if it is sick.

I mean i see the occasional twitch but the fish isnt flashing. No obvious signs of ich and i dont see anything attached to the gills that would be flukes. The other fish that were QT with it show no signs of any disease.

lagatbezan
08/17/2017, 04:49 PM
I have had this exact thing happen to me twice recently with a flame and bicolor angel and unfortunately lost both not knowing exactly what the issue was except mine also flashed occasionally and I treated with formalin, hypo and PP as well ( not at the same time); so I hope you are not dealing with whatever I was dealing with.
If it is flukes, you might have to do a multiple formalin dips a few days apart and move the fish to a clean tank with new water after each dip. There has been some instances where the flukes have become resistant to prazipro.
Also, have you checked the tank for stray voltage? that might be causing the twitching as well.

Clowning_Around
08/17/2017, 05:01 PM
What is your ammonia at?

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Newms118
08/17/2017, 08:17 PM
I have had this exact thing happen to me twice recently with a flame and bicolor angel and unfortunately lost both not knowing exactly what the issue was except mine also flashed occasionally and I treated with formalin, hypo and PP as well ( not at the same time); so I hope you are not dealing with whatever I was dealing with.
If it is flukes, you might have to do a multiple formalin dips a few days apart and move the fish to a clean tank with new water after each dip. There has been some instances where the flukes have become resistant to prazipro.
Also, have you checked the tank for stray voltage? that might be causing the twitching as well.

Man that sucks, sorry for your loss. Mine is still twitching a bit. i have removed the PP and still have CP in the water. Right now the fish is no longer eating. Whats strange is that it seems like something with its mouth bothers it. So I know you know what a flame angel looks like when it eats, its mouth kind of protrudes and it kind of kisses its food. Well now, the fish will see food, get really excited, swim up to it, attempt to peck at it, and then just swim away. And while its swimming around, it will peck at nothing, like its chewing or spitting something else out. I dont see anything on its mouth, its not flashing or scratching it mouth (it was doing this before, that when i started treating with PP and CP).

I suspect its lack of interest in food may be due to the drugs bc before i started this round of treatment, it was eating pellets like a fiend. But I'm just concerned now with its mouth.

Newms118
08/17/2017, 08:19 PM
What is your ammonia at?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

So the QT has been running for about 2 months now so both ammonia and nitrite are zero. I tested a day ago just to be sure bc who knows, and they were zero. Also, I just changed the water (total tank volume is 8 gallons, and i replace 3 gallons at a time.) I changed water on Tuesday and Wednesday.

lagatbezan
08/18/2017, 12:52 PM
Maybe its a reaction to the prazi or CP? give it a few days till the treatment ends and see how it does.
the best way to confirm if its flukes is to do a fresh water dip but it tends to be stressful on the fish. After the dip, transfer to a new, clean tank.
did you get a chance to check for stray voltage? I had that happen to me a while back with a bad powerhead and had fish acting weird because of it. change the equipment, power strip, heater, ect and see if there is a change.
In my experience I unfortunately was never able to keep any dwarf angels that wasnt aggressively eating and continued eating in qt long term. once they stopped eating, it ended up being down hill. not sure why.

Newms118
08/19/2017, 01:23 PM
Maybe its a reaction to the prazi or CP? give it a few days till the treatment ends and see how it does.
the best way to confirm if its flukes is to do a fresh water dip but it tends to be stressful on the fish. After the dip, transfer to a new, clean tank.
did you get a chance to check for stray voltage? I had that happen to me a while back with a bad powerhead and had fish acting weird because of it. change the equipment, power strip, heater, ect and see if there is a change.
In my experience I unfortunately was never able to keep any dwarf angels that wasnt aggressively eating and continued eating in qt long term. once they stopped eating, it ended up being down hill. not sure why.

Ugh this is really bothering me now. Ive done water changes to remove all the medication now. So far the fish is still just swimming around, i dont see it acting strange aside from completely ignoring food. I'm just hoping its the fact that the food made it feel sick and that itll get its appetite again. It was eating just fine before I put in that stupid medication.

The single worst thing about this hobby is the **** poor ability to diagnose sickness and medication levels, its all a guessing game.

lagatbezan
08/20/2017, 10:16 AM
Ugh this is really bothering me now. Ive done water changes to remove all the medication now. So far the fish is still just swimming around, i dont see it acting strange aside from completely ignoring food. I'm just hoping its the fact that the food made it feel sick and that itll get its appetite again. It was eating just fine before I put in that stupid medication.

The single worst thing about this hobby is the **** poor ability to diagnose sickness and medication levels, its all a guessing game.

Don't panic just yet, give it a few days to adjust and hopefully it gets its appetite back.

Newms118
08/20/2017, 10:51 AM
Don't panic just yet, give it a few days to adjust and hopefully it gets its appetite back.

Well the current plan has switched to dipping in formalin and transfering the flame angel between buckets with 3 gallons of water. This makes the transferring easier to handle, and I want to do a formalin dip between each transfer. Probably transfer every 4 days. I just think the PP didnt work. The flame has tried to peck at food but then it quickly swims away and sticks its mouth out like its trying to spit something out. Im betting there are flukes all over its mouth and it cant eat bc it hurts.

So today will be the first transfer, kind of debating to either use formalin or paraguard since I know paraguard has malachite green with it and that should also be beneficial for the fish.

lagatbezan
08/20/2017, 11:04 AM
Formalin "should" knock out the flukes but it is harsh on the fish while paraguard is labeled as being much gentler but its effectiveness has been questioned by a lot of people since no one knows for sure whats in it.
another option would be to do the formalin dips and use the paraguard in the water between dips or do an alternate formalin, paraguard dip.
also need to know for sure you dealing with flukes, which is hard to do without a microscope or a freshwater dip.
keep in mind that it could allalso be a reaction to the treatments which in reality are unfortunately all poison.

Newms118
08/20/2017, 11:15 AM
Formalin "should" knock out the flukes but it is harsh on the fish while paraguard is labeled as being much gentler but its effectiveness has been questioned by a lot of people since no one knows for sure whats in it.
another option would be to do the formalin dips and use the paraguard in the water between dips or do an alternate formalin, paraguard dip.
also need to know for sure you dealing with flukes, which is hard to do without a microscope or a freshwater dip.
keep in mind that it could allalso be a reaction to the treatments which in reality are unfortunately all poison.

Yeah I know a FW dip would help to diagnose it, I just dont have a lot of success actually getting the water right. It takes so long to get the pH and temp close. im more confident its flukes based on the fishes actions, it has scratched its mouth in the past and has always had issues with the mouth, the lips have lost color while the rest of the fish looks fine. And the CP in the water should have gotten rid of any ich if there was any, and I havent seen any typical white spots on the fish.

Alternating the formalin/paraguard might be a good idea. I think ill just do formalin first to make sure it gets treatment and then have the fish in new clean water without any medication for the first 4 days, let it feel better. I have some API stresscoat I can put in that has the aloe. I can add that to help with soothing any of the bites when the flukes come off.

In terms of eating today, I put in some omega sinking pellets and i saw it eat 2 or 3 before giving up, so at least something got in the stomach.

lagatbezan
08/20/2017, 11:24 AM
Thats great that it started eating again! i would personally give it a few more days to start eating fully before doing more treatments and causing more stress. Flames can usually have a white coloration to their mouths or it might even be fungus maybe.

lagatbezan
08/24/2017, 01:45 PM
any updates?

Newms118
08/24/2017, 08:22 PM
any updates?

On Sunday, I dipped the fish for 30 minutes in formalin and then transferred it back into the QT that was treated with 0.5 mL/gallon Paraguard (according to the bottle instructions). Ive repeated the 0.5 mL/gallon Paraguard dosing every day since then, and have gotten the fish to eat a bit here and there. Yesterday I picked up some live brine shrimp and the flame angel just seemed a bit confused with them. After it discovered it could eat them, it swam around the tank and found them all. Funny thing is, it seems flame angels dont have great vision if food is right in front of its face, so it would peck and miss and miss and miss until it would get it. Its much better at eating food if its on the bottom of the tank. Well anyway, since the fish started eating those, I put a few pellets in and it ate those as well. I thought we were doing well until today, i put in the brine shrimp and just ate about 3 and ignored the rest. After treating again, I put in some emerald entree and the fish immediately went to it, at a few pecks, and then has ignored it. Also gave some pellets, and same thing, ate a few and then ignored the rest. So something is still bothering the fish, maybe some parasites just hatched and are bothering it bc some days its more hungry than others.

I feel as long as it gets something in the stomach each day thats a good thing, just waiting for its appetite to fully return. Im going to treat with Paraguard for at least 21 days.

Newms118
08/25/2017, 10:40 PM
So the fish had its appetite return again, gave it pellets and brine shrimp.

One thing I notices was that the Paraguard is staining the silicon sealant blue because of the malachite green (why dont they call it malachite blue, i mean, its blue). Is this an issue?

lagatbezan
08/27/2017, 10:03 AM
So the fish had its appetite return again, gave it pellets and brine shrimp.

One thing I notices was that the Paraguard is staining the silicon sealant blue because of the malachite green (why dont they call it malachite blue, i mean, its blue). Is this an issue?

Thats good news its eating. Keep feed it so it gets nice and fat lol.
Has the twitching stopped?
As for the paraguard staining the sealent of the tank, I don't have any experience with it. Maybe call seachem and talk to their tech support and see what they say.

lagatbezan
09/06/2017, 10:37 AM
did the flashing stop?

Newms118
10/04/2017, 08:38 PM
did the flashing stop?

You can check this thread for more updates: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2652054


I started another one bc the flame angel is STILL flashing and its poop is stringy.

lagatbezan
10/05/2017, 12:36 PM
Send you a pm.