PDA

View Full Version : Tunze Care Bacter 0220.005


saltywet
08/12/2017, 12:27 AM
Roger,

Could you enlighten us about this product?

Thanks

Adamc1303
08/13/2017, 12:04 PM
+1!!

rvitko
08/14/2017, 08:35 AM
It is two species of live bacteria suspended in a clay dust, it is a grey powder. I have used it and while I cannot fully credit the product because like most hobbyists I throw everything and the kitchen sink at problems I am trying to solve in my tank but I believe it works as advertised. I am highly skeptical of bacterial products, mainly because I have been in this hobby for 30+ years and the oldest bacterial products were rumored to be nothing but septic tank digester and never worked as advertised. What sold me on this product is we are not the guinea pigs, it was developed by a large French bio lab for use in commercial aquaculture. It is developed to prevent vibrio ulcers on fish and shrimp and clean up sludge from the high population densities. Basically it is a proven product used for many years in aquaculture. One species of bacteria eats sludge and that I can attest to, you will see any accumulated detritus disappear in short order. The other is an enemy of vibrio and attacks it, the hope in aquariums is it would combat RTN but I cannot verify this and that would be hard to do as one cannot say if it was prevented or just never happened, I don't believe it could cure an active infection. I requested a sample back in March as in my new tank I had a strange brown hair algae I have not encountered before, it looked like brown derbasia, one of the promises of this product is that in new tanks which tend to have algae due to an imbalance where algae gets the upper had over normal bacterial digestion of waste, it will bring that into balance. It took 6 weeks and the algae was gone following the recommended 2 weeks of booster dose and 4 weeks of normal dose, the 6th week it literally dissolved and disappeared within a day of the last dose (it is dosed once a week). As I said though I also ran GFO, carbon dosed, water changed, manually scrubbed, added more snails, the usual algae combat we do so I cannot claim any proof it works, all I can say definitively is within a day the detritus is largely gone and the water gets very clear, some of the clarity I attribute to the clay likely acting as a floculating agent, the water turns milky when it is first added.

rvitko
08/14/2017, 08:38 AM
FWIW, pretty much every one at the company was skeptical and we all tested it and everyone would continue using it except Brigitte Tunze, she claims it made matters worse, but the test tank was very old and we suspect that the root issue is that the tank is a monoculture nearly and old tank syndrome is the cause, the tank has been taken over by blue ridge and a couple soft corals to the extent that their is a gorgonian grown over by blue ridge, the rock and sand are very old and the tank needs an overhaul that a miracle in a bottle does not exist for. For new tank issues and regular cleanup I think this product works beyond what one would expect.

smatter
08/14/2017, 12:29 PM
Sounds interesting, thanks for the thorough response. I think I will try some. Doesn't appear to be available on Amazon yet.

rvitko
08/14/2017, 01:27 PM
Marine Depot bought everything we got in.

smatter
08/14/2017, 01:32 PM
And they sold all of it. I'm on the wishlist =)

saltywet
08/14/2017, 08:27 PM
Roger,

Thanks for the history and honest assessment of your company's product.
Did anyone in the company just ran the product by itself to see how much nitrate and phosphate was reduced?

How about the French Biolab showing/sharing some test results to your Tunze company? I know I would have asked for some real world results before making an investment with my company's name selling a product.

Thanks as always!!

rvitko
08/15/2017, 08:42 AM
The problem with all such products is there is a limit to what can be verified. Unfortunately there is a large amount of just observation and anecdote, any PO4 or NO3 reduction requires carbon food, while the bacteria will perform this function, there are a lot of variables and if that is the goal, those bacteria are already in an established tank and carbon dosing will get the desired results. but you also have to keep in mind usually NO3 will drop first and once reduced the metabolism of PO4 is limited by the NO3 available. This is largely a sludge digester and clean up, but as I discussed with some of the experts in the reef field, any of these products require a leap of faith because "proof" is almost unattainable and as I explained, I cannot say with certainty it cured my algae issue, even without intervention of any sort, time alone may have cured it. I would not buy this product to reduce Nitrate or Phosphate, I would buy a bottle of Vodka instead. I would by this product to shift the balance away from problem algae and toward a functioning bacterial filter in a new tank and to reduce detritus.

saltywet
08/15/2017, 10:54 AM
Thanks Roger,

I suspect I have a harmful pathogen in my tank that whenever I carbon dose. I would start to see STN from my SPS and LPS. This is not even running UNLS of 0 NO3 and low PO4. This is even when NO3 is still up in the 4ppm and PO4 is present (0.12). I can only suspect whatever is utilizing the carbon source is out-competing the beneficial (Probiotic) bacteria in my tank. I am excited to try this product (which is coming this Friday). I have not carbon dosed for the last eight month. I will seed my tank with Tunze care bacter for about 1 month with no carbon dosing. After one month, I will slowly carbon dose to see if I can reduce my nitrate and phosphate level.

Any input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

rvitko
08/15/2017, 10:57 AM
Mike Paletta had an article about potentially feeding a pathogen in his tank by carbon dosing, I deliberately avoid acros to avoid these problems but I have not had any issues with montis, porites or any other corals, I do carbon dose a mix of vodka and vinegar. It seems though that carbon dosing can feed pathogens.

saltywet
08/15/2017, 12:10 PM
I can only hope that using Tunze Care Bacter as a probiotic can help "out compete" the pathogens. whatever pathogen in my tank not only affects acros, but also my LPS gets affected as well. I have used NOPOX and Fauna Marin Bactoballs with similar consequence.

rvitko
08/15/2017, 01:08 PM
I'm eager to hear if it works.

unze
08/16/2017, 01:16 PM
what two bacteria species is being used in the products?

rvitko
08/16/2017, 01:35 PM
If they said that everyone else with a bio lab could produce it. All the info we have is non pathogenic, meets all EU directives and non genetically engineered.

smatter
08/16/2017, 01:54 PM
When can we expect more stateside?

rvitko
08/16/2017, 02:24 PM
I just got in 30 more and they all went again to Marine Depot today. I should have 50 more in a week or so.

smatter
08/18/2017, 05:45 AM
Great thanks.

JP94
08/18/2017, 02:47 PM
Roger,

Thanks for the history and honest assessment of your company's product.
Did anyone in the company just ran the product by itself to see how much nitrate and phosphate was reduced?

How about the French Biolab showing/sharing some test results to your Tunze company? I know I would have asked for some real world results before making an investment with my company's name selling a product.

Thanks as always!!

These bacterias have been tested in France and they provide a huge improvment in tanks ... Nothing to do with usual produces...( some are really "fake"). I am trustful. I have seen some pictures : far less algae evenwithin the same duration on the glass..It's seenable...

Otherwise , you can also test DAPHBIO produces. It's French.
I know the guy ( Benoit) who makes that. At the beginning, he was a biologist, soon as a child. Then a teacher. He is a passionnate.
He is really helpful ( he speaks english) and he solved some issues i had in y reef tank.
But he went on make his own research on algae and bacterias... And he began to sell it, on a small scale. However,one day CNRS ( the best Research Science Center in France - only for Research) made a blind test to compare various produces for there use, and they conclued Daphbio gets the best produces . It's really a small company that refuses to be eaten by companies.

I give you the link :
https://www.daphbio.fr/en/12-our-products

Well, I make no money but I only trust this guy and Tunze.

smatter
08/19/2017, 02:14 PM
Sounds encouraging! Thanks for chiming in JP94, and welcome to Reef Central.

saltywet
08/21/2017, 04:05 PM
Yes, Thanks JP94 for chiming in!

cboberg
08/26/2017, 05:19 PM
I just ordered some. I have a relatively new tank (6 months old) I'm battling some hair algae with. NO-PO-x seemed to be hard on my sps and I was doing a half dose. I do regular water changes with RODI and use fritz pro salts. I've had 3 reef tanks over a period of 15 years and this one is the first one I've ever had this much trouble with. I really don't believe in a miracle in a bottle but this product intrigued me. I've got some on the way. I'll update in a few weeks to let you all know if I see any improvement.

rvitko
08/28/2017, 09:13 AM
My experience was it took 6 weeks and it got worse before it got better. However, I have no way of knowing if in 6 weeks it would have gone away on its own or if my shotgun approach something else or the combination effected a remedy. In my tank I had an algae that looked like derbasia but was brown, I so no results weeks 1 and 2 other than clearer water, less film on the glass and no piles of detritus, weeks 3 and 4 the algae growth accelerated, week 5 it stopped, week 6 right after the dose, the next day it was just completely gone.

cboberg
08/31/2017, 08:09 PM
Roger just to confirm it's a once a week dose with the heavier dose being the first two weeks?

rvitko
09/01/2017, 08:35 AM
That is correct.

unze
09/01/2017, 02:35 PM
If they said that everyone else with a bio lab could produce it. All the info we have is non pathogenic, meets all EU directives and non genetically engineered.
I hardly think it is rocket science, if I was dosing something in my tank I would like to know what I am adding.
Providing ingredients gives a product more credibility.

cboberg
09/04/2017, 01:01 PM
I've been having issues with some algae and cyano that traditional methods don't seem to cure. I've cut my feeding back. I do regular water changes with RODI water, I have an algae turf scrubber that is growning algae in my sump and still can't seem to get 100% to go away. I dosed my first care bacter on Thursday and by morning the cyano was starting to let go and filter out. I'll update my results after 6 weeks. Carbon dosing was hard on my sps.

rvitko
09/05/2017, 07:26 AM
My experience with cyano is that lighting spectrum is a big culprit, I have seen it only grow in areas getting direct sunlight. I have also found low flow and low oxygen levels can contribute, usually with cyano I treat with hydrogen peroxide, 1 tsp per 50 gallons per day, this seems to defeat it within 2 weeks though it may come back if the underlying cause is not resolved, lights off for 1 day will accelerate the results. I have learned dosing hydrogen peroxide is controversial but I have never had any issues, there is some discussion it can cause a toxic byproduct with iodine and bromine in the tank. I believe the Care Bacter may help, primarily by decomposing detritus it may be feeding on or that is lowering the redox and dissolved oxygen. Carbon dosing does seem to aggravate existing cyano blooms in my experience, I have some in my DSB visible on the sides though it below the surface and I have been playing with Vitamin C dosing lately and after a dose it pops up on the sand bed top.

smatter
09/05/2017, 07:41 AM
I administered my first dose of Care Bacter on Friday by sprinkling it directly into the tank as per the directions. It was raining down on my corals, and I was a little worried, but they could've cared less. Nothing closed up even a little bit. I left the skimmer off for a while and took the Macro Wadding offline. For as cloudy as it was initially, it cleared up quickly. I figured the skimmer would go bonkers when I turned it back on but it didn't. I will report back with my observations.

cboberg
09/05/2017, 08:16 AM
My experience with cyano is that lighting spectrum is a big culprit, I have seen it only grow in areas getting direct sunlight. I have also found low flow and low oxygen levels can contribute, usually with cyano I treat with hydrogen peroxide, 1 tsp per 50 gallons per day, this seems to defeat it within 2 weeks though it may come back if the underlying cause is not resolved, lights off for 1 day will accelerate the results. I have learned dosing hydrogen peroxide is controversial but I have never had any issues, there is some discussion it can cause a toxic byproduct with iodine and bromine in the tank. I believe the Care Bacter may help, primarily by decomposing detritus it may be feeding on or that is lowering the redox and dissolved oxygen. Carbon dosing does seem to aggravate existing cyano blooms in my experience, I have some in my DSB visible on the sides though it below the surface and I have been playing with Vitamin C dosing lately and after a dose it pops up on the sand bed top.

I didn't purchase it for cyano. I purchased for the algae I haven't been able to get rid of. My lighting is pretty blue with the spectrum I run my kessils at. The tank doesn't get a ton of sunlight and there's a lot of flow. In keeping mixed reefs for nearly 20 years, I've never had one give me this much trouble. I thought it was interesting the cyano quickly started to go away. My coral didn't care about the product landing on it. I too thought it cleared up quickly and had no issues once my skimmer came back on...

Madehtsobi
09/11/2017, 12:31 PM
I didn't purchase it for cyano. I purchased for the algae I haven't been able to get rid of. My lighting is pretty blue with the spectrum I run my kessils at. The tank doesn't get a ton of sunlight and there's a lot of flow. In keeping mixed reefs for nearly 20 years, I've never had one give me this much trouble. I thought it was interesting the cyano quickly started to go away. My coral didn't care about the product landing on it. I too thought it cleared up quickly and had no issues once my skimmer came back on...

have u noticed any difference in your algae and cyano?

thinking of trying this product for my cyano..

rvitko
09/11/2017, 02:28 PM
It might help with cyano but I am skeptical, I think it has the most benefit against some hair algaes and green algae. The basic idea is algae and bacteria compete for the same nutrients, in a new tank the bacteria are not well established so the equilibrium shifts to algae doing this job, we shift it back to bacteria and the algae starve. The issue with cyano is it doesn't have the same limits as algae, it can fix nitrogen, it is a bacteria and not an algae. Most cyano remedies are going to be an oxidizer to raise redox or a antibacterial product (antibiotic). I have good luck with limiting light and using hydrogen peroxide and increasing skimming/ flow (make sure everything is clean and working optimally, if something is suspect or questionable for the job, replace it with a better one).

cboberg
09/12/2017, 08:38 AM
I'm in week 3 where the algae starts to look "worse" before it gets better...It's making me a bit nervous but if it goes away it's definitely a worth while product...

Madehtsobi
09/12/2017, 08:44 AM
It might help with cyano but I am skeptical, I think it has the most benefit against some hair algaes and green algae. The basic idea is algae and bacteria compete for the same nutrients, in a new tank the bacteria are not well established so the equilibrium shifts to algae doing this job, we shift it back to bacteria and the algae starve. The issue with cyano is it doesn't have the same limits as algae, it can fix nitrogen, it is a bacteria and not an algae. Most cyano remedies are going to be an oxidizer to raise redox or a antibacterial product (antibiotic). I have good luck with limiting light and using hydrogen peroxide and increasing skimming/ flow (make sure everything is clean and working optimally, if something is suspect or questionable for the job, replace it with a better one).



Will try the lights out again although I did it before and it helped but it's coming back.

I have tons of flow too

I'm in week 3 where the algae starts to look "worse" before it gets better...It's making me a bit nervous but if it goes away it's definitely a worth while product...



Cool keep us updated!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

cboberg
09/24/2017, 09:44 PM
My experience was it took 6 weeks and it got worse before it got better. However, I have no way of knowing if in 6 weeks it would have gone away on its own or if my shotgun approach something else or the combination effected a remedy. In my tank I had an algae that looked like derbasia but was brown, I so no results weeks 1 and 2 other than clearer water, less film on the glass and no piles of detritus, weeks 3 and 4 the algae growth accelerated, week 5 it stopped, week 6 right after the dose, the next day it was just completely gone.

Roger, just finished week 3 and into week 4 same results as you had. Hair algae has gotten worse but is loosening and letting go some. Glad you posted your experience because I would have freaked out by now and quit using the product after seeing week 3 and 4.... will continue to update my progress. I have only used the care bacter to battle my algae because I wanted to give the product an honest assessment. This algae needs to be 100 percent gone before I do a tank transfer next month into my new rimless 120 I'm having built...

rvitko
09/25/2017, 09:03 AM
Great news, I am happy someone has replicated what I experienced as that says to me it was not just a fluke. I think by week 5 you will see it thining and in my case, the morning after the 6 dose it was just gone, not a speck left.

ReefTeacher
10/05/2017, 01:28 PM
I just used my first dose last night, so I am looking forward to the results over the next few weeks.

Are there any thoughts to using a UV with Care Bacter? Should we turn it off like the skimmer when first dosing? The instructions do not seem to address it.

rvitko
10/05/2017, 02:28 PM
I run a UV and I just unplugged the pump powering it for 10 minutes as with the filter and skimmer. My assumption is you just need to give the powder time to settle out so the UV doesn't kill it. It worked for me in those circumstances.

ReefTeacher
10/05/2017, 02:59 PM
Thanks Roger!

smatter
10/06/2017, 07:38 AM
I'm a few doses in now. I didn't have an algae problem to begin with so I can't comment on that. I can report that the glass requires less frequent cleaning. The sand also appears cleaner and whiter. Water clarity has improved. I think the clay or whatever it is may have a flocculent quality to it.

rvitko
10/06/2017, 09:06 AM
I would agree on the flocculent, I have assumed the same, but floccullents generally result in particulate clinging to the glass and a pile of detritus so there has to be more at play than that.

ReefTeacher
10/06/2017, 09:26 AM
I have also noticed the increased water clarity after only one dose. My skimmer is also putting out more skimmate than usual.

smatter
10/06/2017, 09:34 AM
There's definitely bacteria at work here. The clay dust effect is just a bonus. There's a thread going on right now about dosing calcium carbonate and water clarity. I don't think the dust in Care Bacter is calcium carbonate, but it might have a similar effect. Friday is my dosing day. I look forward to sprinkling it on the surface later and a gin-clear tank in the morning :)

ReefTeacher
10/06/2017, 09:47 AM
and a gin-clear tank in the morning :)


It IS Friday isn't it! :lmao:

smatter
10/06/2017, 09:56 AM
Happy Friday!!!

rvitko
10/06/2017, 10:41 AM
As I recall in the instructions the clay is named, I have not looked it up yet.

smatter
10/06/2017, 11:21 AM
It's powdered Maerl gravel which is coralline algae. Calcium carbonate it is!

cboberg
10/09/2017, 08:00 PM
I just finished a full reccomened dose of the product without deviating from the instructions. My experience was very similar to Roger's. The hair algae and bryopsis got worse before it got better but it does die in the last few weeks of the treatment. The only thing I had at the end was some green algae on my rocks that I brushed off with a tooth brush. I just did a full tank transfer to a new rimless 120 and I'm going to order more care bacter. I want to seed some of the beneficial bacteria in the new tank to perhaps keep the algae from coming back. The product worked as described in the earlier posts by Roger. I fear though that people may not have the patience to see it through to the end. One thing I learned a decade ago in this hobby is nothing GOOD happens FAST in a reef tank...

ReefTeacher
10/10/2017, 08:13 AM
I am adding my second dose tonight. I was looking at the powder in anticipation and I noticed a similarity to another product; ZEOZYME. That product had almost the same powdery consistency and color. It is dosed very differently, you must mix it with water ahead of time and let it settle. It turns the water a little yellow and then you dump it in. I believe it does not claim to have bacteria, just bacterial enzymes that break down waste so that the bacteria can use it more efficiently. It was very expensive.

I just wonder if there is any relationship between the two products. Obviously there are big differences, not the least of which is price, but Tunze does have a way of greatly improving products that are already out there.

Speaking of which, my skimmer is getting old....:fun5:

rvitko
10/10/2017, 08:14 AM
I am happy to see my results were replicated. So far this is the experience of everyone who tried it except one person and that tank was very old and had other issues and probably could only be restored by a massive tear down and redo. We generally expect that this product will be most useful in balancing newer tanks under 2 years old. I wholeheartedly agree nothing good happens fast, only things that have been fast in my reef tank are brown jelly infections and sweeper tentacle attacks, LOL.

rvitko
10/10/2017, 08:18 AM
No relation to my knowledge, I suspect by the name it is a KorallinZucht product (Zeovit method)? They have there own way of doing things based on ultralow nutrient maintenance. Our product is just a general sludge digester and vibrio fighter that comes from commercial aquaculture, it was specifically developed for the issues encountered in farming shrimp and marine food fish (ulcerations and detritus accumulation) and was adapted for reef aquarium use.