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pisanoal
08/14/2017, 10:26 AM
What this thread IS:
A discussion about testing various reef safe (stocked sps tank) chemical treatment methods for eliminating vermetid snails.

What this thread IS NOT:
A discussion about whether these are harmful or not.

A discussion about which fish/snail/crab eats these or not. (Nothing has been found to be reliable)

A discussion about manual removal, superglueing, aptasia lasers, epoxy, nuking rock work, kalk paste injection (did I get them all?) methods. These are not a permanent solutions. And not feasible for a lot of people.

There are other threads out there geared towards the above, please use those to discuss what this thread is not meant to address. If you post any of the above, you will be politely jeared, made fun of, scolded, berated, publicly humiliated and shunned...kidding of course, but please lets stay on topic!


Now that we have that straight, here is the setup.

A 10 gallon tank with an aquaclear filter, a sponge, some ceramic media. A piece of live rock from my display with vermetid snails attached (the small plague like variety). A heater, a powerhead and an incandescent light (mostly for inspection).

And the plan:
To find a chemical treatment method that has already been proven to be reef safe. If snails have to be removed to save them, that is acceptable, what I don't want is something where fish and coral have to be taken out. If there is a solution where that has to be done, but the chemicals can be easily removed after, then that can be a last resort discussion. I don't want to nuke the tank. Ive spent 1.5 years and the tank is finally getting stable, if I cant get rid of these things, then I will live with them. Also, many people have thriving huge tanks with sps reefs with lots of fish, and I want to find a solution that works as well for them as it does for someone that has a 20 gallon long with a few fish and coral (If one exists).

I plan to test and have already started a few:

Sentinel Spectrum
Prazipro at stronger then normal doses
Fenbendazole

If you know of something that is generally reef safe, but harmful to snails, that would be helpful. If you have any other ideas of things you think could work, even if they haven't in the past at whatever dosage you tried, please post them and the dosage. I will try them at higher doses if possible.

Thanks for joining me, hopefully we are successful!

pisanoal
08/14/2017, 10:40 AM
Sentinel Spectrum:

I dissolved one large dog pill in 500 mL of RODI water.

1 large dog pill = 23mg Milbemycin Oxime, 460 mg Lufenuron, 228 mg Praziquantel.

This has been found to be reef safe, although the lufenuron reportedly decimates copepod populations.

Typically used for red bugs at dosages usually around 1 large pill per 300 gallons of water. But has been successfully used at much higher dosages with no "other" ill effects, only what was expected. We will call a standard dose .076 mg MO (milbemycin oxime) per gallon.

I dosed 25 mls of my solution into the 10 gallon tank (0.115 mg per gallon). Still alive 24 hrs later, dosed a second 25 mls, still alive. Doesn't appear to be working...

I have seen a report of interceptor spectrum working, but was unable to get it. I just found out its called interceptor plus now. It is 23mg MO and 228mg prazi. I cant see lufenuron saving the vermetids, so should be as effective?

I sent a PM to the user who reported this working on two tanks, but no response.

RobZilla04
08/14/2017, 12:54 PM
Following...

Also with a 1.5 year old tank. These little guys are getting out of hand. I thought I was going to have to deal with them in hopes they will phase out, but that doesn't look to be likely.

I agree the solutions you've banned discussing either won't work with a guarantee or are not feasible.

Grimreaperz
08/14/2017, 05:41 PM
Following as well.....sick of seeing these guys. I have done manual removal methods only to miss a tiny one and they come back..

jda
08/14/2017, 06:39 PM
I have treated using Sentinel and Interceptor for red bugs. They did not kill any of my "good" snails. I am looking forward to seeing if this works on these particular snails since I have a few nasty verms here and there.

pisanoal
08/14/2017, 08:20 PM
I have treated using Sentinel and Interceptor for red bugs. They did not kill any of my "good" snails. I am looking forward to seeing if this works on these particular snails since I have a few nasty verms here and there.


What dosage did you use? And what versions? Regular interceptor and sentinel? Or the spectrum versions? That info will help me run a trial.

My next move is to do a little research and see what the highest safe dosage people have used and see how that compares to what I've tried already. If I can increase to a dose that will still be safe for a tank I will try that. The alternative is to do a super dose and see if this stuff will do anything at all then try to evaluate how safe it is before coming up with a dosing strategy for my tank

The other thing I might be missing is I'm running a sponge in the a.c. filter. Ive noticed my sentinel solution has some solids to it and in wondering if the Verms need to ingest it directly. My gut says the solids are fillers and not active ingredients, but its a possibility.

pisanoal
08/14/2017, 08:22 PM
Following as well.....sick of seeing these guys. I have done manual removal methods only to miss a tiny one and they come back..

I feel you. I tried hard to keep these things out of my new setup. Had them all over in my old. Started dry rock and sand, acid cleaned all equipment, carefully removed all I could see from coral bases and dipped in Bayer. They still popped up on the coral and I would get then when I saw them. Eventually they escaped to the rock work. And here we are...

jda
08/14/2017, 08:48 PM
OG interceptor way back when Dustin first released the formula. ...whatever that dosage was.

I cannot remember what the sentinel was.

I have interceptor tasty chews, but never had to use them... I have gotten better at keeping pests out.

Kayvon
08/15/2017, 11:16 AM
I've tried Prazipro at higher than recommended doses (can't remember the exact amount). It doesn't work I'm afraid. I remember it eliminated the slime trails for a while, so it might have caused them to retreat temporarily.

pisanoal
08/15/2017, 11:24 AM
I've tried Prazipro at higher than recommended doses (can't remember the exact amount). It doesn't work I'm afraid. I remember it eliminated the slime trails for a while, so it might have caused them to retreat temporarily.



Thanks for your input. I also tried prazipro. I added it a couple of days ago at about 4x reocommended dose. There is also praziquantel in the sentinel spectrum, so the dose is even higher. Didnt notice a reduction in webs, but there is not a lot of suspended detritus in the test tank, so I dont notice them anyway. Maybe prolonged exposure to prazipro if it has an effect on their feeding could be a solution to evaluate.

I'm out of town for the next few days and havent done any wc's or added any carbon. So the meds are still floating around in the test tank. We will see what things look like when I return.

Anyone know any treatments for other pests that are not considered snail safe?

pisanoal
08/15/2017, 11:26 AM
OG interceptor way back when Dustin first released the formula. ...whatever that dosage was.

I cannot remember what the sentinel was.

I have interceptor tasty chews, but never had to use them... I have gotten better at keeping pests out.

I've read multiple times that regular interceptor doesn't work for these guys. I was hoping the anecdotal evidence of spectrum would be accurate, but it appears not to be.

Good to hear on keeping pests out. Much easier to deal with that way.

pisanoal
08/26/2017, 05:23 PM
Quick update, large dose of sentinel spectrum and rxtra dose of prazipro did not take these out. I'm headed on vacation for a week, so I did not do any more testing in preparation. When I return, the next thing on the list is fenbendazole.

iced98lx
08/28/2017, 12:04 PM
Anecdotal at best but I noticed a significant decrease in webs and growth/multiplication when my dosing of Lanthanum Chloride spilled over the filter sock and the tank became cloudy with the precipitate. Most agree it's not healthy for fish/filter feeders however. It's my guess that the vermetid snails did not appreciate it in their webs. Might be worth trying if you've got the setup to do so. Nothing in my tank appeared worse for wear though I did not have any clams/many filter feeders.

kainic
09/02/2017, 02:17 AM
Subscribed. I don't think a chemical aproach will be our final solution to this battle. This snails can protect themselves from the environment due to its door type shell. If they feel they are in danger they retract to the base and close and I think it's near to hermetic.
Will you do tests with a biological approach such as natural predators?

pisanoal
09/05/2017, 11:21 AM
Anecdotal at best but I noticed a significant decrease in webs and growth/multiplication when my dosing of Lanthanum Chloride spilled over the filter sock and the tank became cloudy with the precipitate. Most agree it's not healthy for fish/filter feeders however. It's my guess that the vermetid snails did not appreciate it in their webs. Might be worth trying if you've got the setup to do so. Nothing in my tank appeared worse for wear though I did not have any clams/many filter feeders.Thanks for the info, ill add it to the list to try if the fenbendazole dewormerr does not work.

I agree that its pretty well thought that LaCl particulate is bad for the tank, so we can work on that hurdle if it appears to be effective.

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pisanoal
09/05/2017, 11:26 AM
Subscribed. I don't think a chemical aproach will be our final solution to this battle. This snails can protect themselves from the environment due to its door type shell. If they feel they are in danger they retract to the base and close and I think it's near to hermetic.
Will you do tests with a biological approach such as natural predators?No I will not be testing natural predators, please reread my initial post.

As for your comment about them being able to protect themselves, that is only true for a finite amount of time. They can't seal themselves forever. They need to respire like any other living creature and need to exchange water to do so. There is anecdotal evidence of killing them with various treatments for other pests.

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jda
09/05/2017, 11:32 AM
Treated my acropora isolation tank with Interceptor Spectrum a few days ago at normal Red Bug doses (23mg of MO per 300G). V snails are mad and have not been out making any webs, but I doubt that they are dead. If for some reason they end up dying, I will post back, but I doubt it too...

pisanoal
09/21/2017, 10:07 AM
Sorry for the long delay folks. I went on vacation, had to travel a week for work, and have had some other home projects going on.

So here's the update... I really was hoping something less potent was going to work on these suckers, so that's what I tested first. But I was pretty confident that fendbendazole would work. Well, I was wrong, at least at the dosage I tried. As I have said a few times, my main source for this chemical working is a thread on another forum called "Here it is! Fendbendazole use against hydroids". The OP used a product called safeguard 4, which has the active ingredient, fendbendazole. The catch is, there are granules in the packet and there is powder. The granules are the fenbendazole. So he painstakingly separated out the granules, crushed them up, and dosed it that way. Later in the thread, someone found a new source of fendbendazole, a pure packet on amazon that can be dosed as is. The product is called fish bendazole. I purchased that product in hopes of trying it, but later in that thread, and on RC, users stated that it was not affecting the vermetids. So I came to the conclusion that it was another chemical in the safeguard 4 that was actually killing them. So based on this theory, I decided I would use the safeguard.

I went through the process of separating the granules, and placed them in 100 ml of RODI water. I then put it through the blender to thoroughly crush and disperse the granules. Now lets talk about dosage for a second... In the original account, the OP of the "other" thread said they used 1-4 gram packet (separated) to treat 125 gallons of water. But later, they stated that they used pure fendbendazole at 250 mg for 175 gal and was recommending a dose of 1.5 mg/gal. The safeguard 4 packets say they are 22.2% fendbendazole. So if the granules are the fenbendazole, then 22.2% of 4 grams is 888mg. For 125 gallons, this is 7.1 mg/gal. They argue this in the other thread, but never come to a consensus.

Anyways, I dosed the approx. 1.5 mg per gallon in my ten gallon test tank and waited 48 hours. Guess What!! nothing... So dosed another 2 doses. So if you are doing the math with me, that's 4.5 mg per gallon or 3x the "recommended" (?) dose. In 48 hours, guess what now?? Yep, good job, nothing! Those little b-words (the longer one) still poke their little indignant heads out of their annoying little shells.

Now I have ordered a couple more fish for my display, and im trying a clam for the first time, so I need my qt tank back to set up for the clam to sit in to make sure he's not carrying any ich cysts. I think before I throw this rock back in the tank in exasperation, Ill put it in a bucket with a powerhead and try 8 mg/gallon of fenbendazole, heck maybe 10 just because I can...

Ill check back in, but if that doesn't work, then this is "To be continued at a later date". Please keep the discussion going if someone else finds this thread and thinks they have something that is worth testing.

Mrs. Music
09/21/2017, 12:41 PM
Has anyone tried running a wire brush over the visible verm snails while doing the treatment? My thinking is that the brush would damage them a bit and allowe medication to penetrade the shell.

pisanoal
09/21/2017, 01:53 PM
Has anyone tried running a wire brush over the visible verm snails while doing the treatment? My thinking is that the brush would damage them a bit and allowe medication to penetrade the shell.I haven't tried this, but typically before I administer medication, I feed the tank so they are out and active. They dont stay holed up for days when I have done these treatments, may be maybe a few minutes, but then they come out and are fully exposed to it.

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Mrs. Music
09/21/2017, 03:19 PM
I believe a wire brush would damage the shell and expose them to more of the treatment.

pisanoal
09/21/2017, 09:21 PM
I believe a wire brush would damage the shell and expose them to more of the treatment.

Thank you for your comments, but let's suppose our final solution requires that a wire brush be ran over their shell to be effective. How woukd you propose a person who cant remove their rocks from say a 300 gallon with 200 lbs of live rock in the display and 200 pounds of rock in their sump woild get to all of them?

I don't believe it will make any difference to the treatments, and is not a practical addition to a recommended treatment protocol.

Mrs. Music
09/22/2017, 08:17 AM
Thank you for your comments, but let's suppose our final solution requires that a wire brush be ran over their shell to be effective. How woukd you propose a person who cant remove their rocks from say a 300 gallon with 200 lbs of live rock in the display and 200 pounds of rock in their sump woild get to all of them?

I don't believe it will make any difference to the treatments, and is not a practical addition to a recommended treatment protocol.

I truly do wish you luck with this endeavor. It does make a difference however. I am sharing with you the method I used to successfully rid my tank of these pests. Neither manual removal nor chemical removal has proven successful. But combining the two worked. I was merely hoping you might lightly brush one rock to compare it to the rocks that receive chemical treatment only. good luck.

pisanoal
09/22/2017, 08:31 AM
I truly do wish you luck with this endeavor. It does make a difference however. I am sharing with you the method I used to successfully rid my tank of these pests. Neither manual removal nor chemical removal has proven successful. But combining the two worked. I was merely hoping you might lightly brush one rock to compare it to the rocks that receive chemical treatment only. good luck.

Since this a thread about getting rid of these pests, would you mind posting your full treatment protocol you used to successfully rid your tank of them. For example, what you dosed, at what concentration, how many times and at what interval? Did you brush them with a wire brush before each treatment? Was it a single treatment?

Thanks for your input. Hopefully your method is something we can all learn from, and benefit.

2000se
09/23/2017, 07:00 AM
gas I tell ya.....gas and a match! :hb2: haha

I so hope someone gets to a solution on this...these things are terrible. and the multiple like crazy..

subscribed

Mrs. Music
09/26/2017, 12:13 PM
Thank you for the kind reply. I didn't have a protocol. We removed all the LR from my 180 and squirted or brushed hair peroxide, #40 developer, on the bryopsis and v snails with a quick brush of a new wire brush over the algae or v snails. Then rinsed each rock in salt water and placed it back in the tank. This was my valentines day gift from my husband...lol. I bet he wished he had just gotten me a fish! Although the bryosis came back many years later I have very few v snails. They were awful prior to the treatment. Good luck. I hope see this come to fruition.

tlc
09/28/2017, 12:20 PM
i wasnt plagued with these snails by any means but i did notice an extreme decline in population when i started microscrubbing my tank. i have been scrubbing the tank for about 5 months now. prior to scrubbing i was seeing the snail growth population expanding. now there is only a few left in the tank. oddly they are growing out of the top of a lepto i have.

pisanoal
09/29/2017, 09:37 AM
Thank you for the kind reply. I didn't have a protocol. We removed all the LR from my 180 and squirted or brushed hair peroxide, #40 developer, on the bryopsis and v snails with a quick brush of a new wire brush over the algae or v snails. Then rinsed each rock in salt water and placed it back in the tank. This was my valentines day gift from my husband...lol. I bet he wished he had just gotten me a fish! Although the bryosis came back many years later I have very few v snails. They were awful prior to the treatment. Good luck. I hope see this come to fruition.

Thanks for explaining your method. I will take that into consideration. Although it doesn't meet my criteria fully, it may be that I don't find a chemical solution that doesn't involve removing rocks. unfortunately, without this method, we will never fully eliminate them from a tank (which is the main goal of this thread) without nuking the whole tank and starting over.

Moving on, my clam did not make the journey, so after my fish are done with the quarantine tanks, I will resume testing.

pisanoal
09/29/2017, 09:39 AM
i wasnt plagued with these snails by any means but i did notice an extreme decline in population when i started microscrubbing my tank. i have been scrubbing the tank for about 5 months now. prior to scrubbing i was seeing the snail growth population expanding. now there is only a few left in the tank. oddly they are growing out of the top of a lepto i have.

I have heard this several times before, and if we can't come to a complete eradication method, this sounds like a very promising way to manage and reduce plague levels of them.

Do you have it set up on a timer to do it automatically? How often? Do you find salt creep being an issue, or how do you manage the creep?

Thanks for your post

tlc
09/29/2017, 09:59 PM
i have the scrubber on a timer set to come on from about 1130 am to 430 am. some recommend longer intervals. if you use a proper wood difuser or other type of micro bubble device the salt creep is very minimal. elegant corals has some great info on the set up

Froggers
09/29/2017, 11:26 PM
Have you tried using a molluscicide like potassium permanganate?

There are other natural molluscicides that could work like seeds, extracts and oils of Azadirachta indica (neem), Cedrus deodara (cedar), Allium sativum (garlic), Polianthes tuberosa (tuberosebulb), Zingiber officinale (ginger), Lawsonia inermis (henna), Annona squamosa (custard apple), Sapindus trifoliatus (soap nut), Acacia concinna (shikakai), Madhuca indica (mowra, honey tree), Phytolacca acinosa (pokeweed) or combinations with other plant-derived molluscicides that are very effective against both adult snails and their reproduction.

I dosed one of my tanks with Hydrogen Peroxide daily a few years ago in an effort to control bryopsis. The dosing really had no affect on the Bryopsis however it did completely eradicate my tank of planaria and snails.

pisanoal
10/02/2017, 02:46 PM
i have the scrubber on a timer set to come on from about 1130 am to 430 am. some recommend longer intervals. if you use a proper wood difuser or other type of micro bubble device the salt creep is very minimal. elegant corals has some great info on the set up

Ill check it out. Thanks for the info.

pisanoal
10/02/2017, 02:47 PM
Have you tried using a molluscicide like potassium permanganate?

There are other natural molluscicides that could work like seeds, extracts and oils of Azadirachta indica (neem), Cedrus deodara (cedar), Allium sativum (garlic), Polianthes tuberosa (tuberosebulb), Zingiber officinale (ginger), Lawsonia inermis (henna), Annona squamosa (custard apple), Sapindus trifoliatus (soap nut), Acacia concinna (shikakai), Madhuca indica (mowra, honey tree), Phytolacca acinosa (pokeweed) or combinations with other plant-derived molluscicides that are very effective against both adult snails and their reproduction.

I dosed one of my tanks with Hydrogen Peroxide daily a few years ago in an effort to control bryopsis. The dosing really had no affect on the Bryopsis however it did completely eradicate my tank of planaria and snails.


I have not given it any thought, thanks for the suggestions. Would be interesting to find dosage levels that would be considered reef safe. Especially of the peroxide and permanganate.

pisanoal
10/02/2017, 03:03 PM
I just read/skimmed the advanced aquarist article you quoted. Interesting read. Doesn't appear like KMnO4 is a good candidate for in tank treatment though. Still worth a shot as maybe lower dosages will effect vermetids.

Nemeziz_za
10/02/2017, 03:29 PM
Subscribed

I just went through a 900 gallon tear down and did some pretty extreme rock nuking.

Not something I ever want to have to do again, I'd probably just raise the white flag.

fishguy597
10/02/2017, 06:30 PM
I believe a wire brush would damage the shell and expose them to more of the treatment.

Only problem is, you will miss some of the smaller ones and they will multiply. I truely hope you can find something to get rid of these guys. I ultimately had to nuke my rock and seed it with existing lr. I must have checked the existing lr 10x's and kept on finding new snails until the 7th time. They hide every where lr,sump,overflows,ext.

Froggers
10/03/2017, 12:19 AM
The dosage I used for algae was a little less than 1ml per 10 gallons of 3% hydrogen peroxide added daily. If you try this start lower dosage. I dosed for about 3 or 4 months. I do not know at what stage I killed off all the flat worms. Your skimmer will go nuts.

As far as the potassium permanganate I believe Kent Marine Poly-Ox has this in it. Kent Marine provides a recommended dosage for reef tanks as well. Jungle Clear Water is potassium permanganate but only give a recommended dose for freshwater tanks and ponds.

Everyone that has failed using potassium permanganate have used higher dosages trying to get a quick knock down. I think at a lower dose for a longer period might work and be safer. Just be prepared to lose snails, clams and any other worms and such. Might cause your nitrates and ammonia to spike with the die off. Could kill off some of the bacteria in the rocks.

I have not given it any thought, thanks for the suggestions. Would be interesting to find dosage levels that would be considered reef safe. Especially of the peroxide and permanganate.

Froggers
10/03/2017, 12:41 AM
Kent Marine poly-ox is not potassium permanganate it is H2MnO4 that acts like potassium permanganate (KMnO4). Kordon Permoxyn is 3.8% potassium permanganate KMnO4. If you decide to go this route hydrogen peroxide is the antidote.

If I were going to try this method I would first set up a test tank and test what strength is needed to kill the vermetid snails. Then I would test it with a few pieces of different expendable coral frags to see how they react.

Some information on KMnO4 can be found at http://www.discusforums.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-20752.html

pisanoal
10/03/2017, 10:29 AM
The dosage I used for algae was a little less than 1ml per 10 gallons of 3% hydrogen peroxide added daily. If you try this start lower dosage. I dosed for about 3 or 4 months. I do not know at what stage I killed off all the flat worms. Your skimmer will go nuts.

As far as the potassium permanganate I believe Kent Marine Poly-Ox has this in it. Kent Marine provides a recommended dosage for reef tanks as well. Jungle Clear Water is potassium permanganate but only give a recommended dose for freshwater tanks and ponds.

Everyone that has failed using potassium permanganate have used higher dosages trying to get a quick knock down. I think at a lower dose for a longer period might work and be safer. Just be prepared to lose snails, clams and any other worms and such. Might cause your nitrates and ammonia to spike with the die off. Could kill off some of the bacteria in the rocks.



Ok, Thanks for the info.

Nemeziz_za
10/24/2017, 03:50 AM
Curious if there has been any progress or further thoughts or findings in this research thread.

pisanoal
10/24/2017, 06:02 AM
Curious if there has been any progress or further thoughts or findings in this research thread.I had to pause it to set up a longer term qt tank. I'm setting it back up now and getting ready to start testing. I've got a few more ideas to try too

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Nemeziz_za
10/25/2017, 02:51 PM
I had to pause it to set up a longer term qt tank. I'm setting it back up now and getting ready to start testing. I've got a few more ideas to try too

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Great to hear, I'm subscribed to your thread and thank you for your perseverance.

jda
10/25/2017, 03:14 PM
This is completely anecdotal, but I inherited a longnose butterfly about a month ago. While it cannot eat them, it seems to irritate them enough that I have not seen as many new ones around - I usually cut them in the tank with some bone cutters and then the fish clean them up. This could mean nothing and this is just a down-cycle.

FWIW - I have some, but never enough to be really mad about them.

JDuong916
11/28/2017, 01:04 AM
I read somewhere about someone using coral snow. I guess it makes the water clear and the verms cant eat and die. I am 99% sure it probably doesn't work, but I read it somewhere.

I'm at the exact same point as you, every thing settled and growing including billions of vermetids.

ReefKeeper64
11/28/2017, 02:15 AM
If you don’t come up with a better solution, then here is a thought.

Remove your corals to a holding tank and dose the display tank with a standard dose of chloroquine phosphate. Just one dose will wipe out your entire snail population. I know because I treated a case of ich this way before. Snails went quick. It took a few weeks after before I could keep snails again. I deplore vermetid snails. Their webs and cones are unsightly. If I ever get a case of these, I won’t hesitate one bit to nuke them this way. The tank will recover in short order and the corals will make it in a holding tank for a few weeks.