Vermetid Snail ELIMINATION - In tank Treatments

[pisanoal]

What this thread IS:
A discussion about testing various reef safe (stocked sps tank) chemical treatment methods for eliminating vermetid snails.

What this thread IS NOT:
A discussion about whether these are harmful or not.

A discussion about which fish/snail/crab eats these or not. (Nothing has been found to be reliable)

A discussion about manual removal, superglueing, aptasia lasers, epoxy, nuking rock work, kalk paste injection (did I get them all?) methods. These are not a permanent solutions. And not feasible for a lot of people.

There are other threads out there geared towards the above, please use those to discuss what this thread is not meant to address. If you post any of the above, you will be politely jeared, made fun of, scolded, berated, publicly humiliated and shunned...kidding of course, but please lets stay on topic!


Now that we have that straight, here is the setup.

A 10 gallon tank with an aquaclear filter, a sponge, some ceramic media. A piece of live rock from my display with vermetid snails attached (the small plague like variety). A heater, a powerhead and an incandescent light (mostly for inspection).

And the plan:
To find a chemical treatment method that has already been proven to be reef safe. If snails have to be removed to save them, that is acceptable, what I don't want is something where fish and coral have to be taken out. If there is a solution where that has to be done, but the chemicals can be easily removed after, then that can be a last resort discussion. I don't want to nuke the tank. Ive spent 1.5 years and the tank is finally getting stable, if I cant get rid of these things, then I will live with them. Also, many people have thriving huge tanks with sps reefs with lots of fish, and I want to find a solution that works as well for them as it does for someone that has a 20 gallon long with a few fish and coral (If one exists).

I plan to test and have already started a few:

Sentinel Spectrum
Prazipro at stronger then normal doses
Fenbendazole

If you know of something that is generally reef safe, but harmful to snails, that would be helpful. If you have any other ideas of things you think could work, even if they haven't in the past at whatever dosage you tried, please post them and the dosage. I will try them at higher doses if possible.

Thanks for joining me, hopefully we are successful!

[pisanoal]

Sentinel Spectrum:

I dissolved one large dog pill in 500 mL of RODI water.

1 large dog pill = 23mg Milbemycin Oxime, 460 mg Lufenuron, 228 mg Praziquantel.

This has been found to be reef safe, although the lufenuron reportedly decimates copepod populations.

Typically used for red bugs at dosages usually around 1 large pill per 300 gallons of water. But has been successfully used at much higher dosages with no "other" ill effects, only what was expected. We will call a standard dose .076 mg MO (milbemycin oxime) per gallon.

I dosed 25 mls of my solution into the 10 gallon tank (0.115 mg per gallon). Still alive 24 hrs later, dosed a second 25 mls, still alive. Doesn't appear to be working...

I have seen a report of interceptor spectrum working, but was unable to get it. I just found out its called interceptor plus now. It is 23mg MO and 228mg prazi. I cant see lufenuron saving the vermetids, so should be as effective?

I sent a PM to the user who reported this working on two tanks, but no response.

[RobZilla04]

Following...

Also with a 1.5 year old tank. These little guys are getting out of hand. I thought I was going to have to deal with them in hopes they will phase out, but that doesn't look to be likely.

I agree the solutions you've banned discussing either won't work with a guarantee or are not feasible.

[Grimreaperz]

Following as well.....sick of seeing these guys. I have done manual removal methods only to miss a tiny one and they come back..

[jda]

I have treated using Sentinel and Interceptor for red bugs. They did not kill any of my "good" snails. I am looking forward to seeing if this works on these particular snails since I have a few nasty verms here and there.

[pisanoal]

I have treated using Sentinel and Interceptor for red bugs. They did not kill any of my "good" snails. I am looking forward to seeing if this works on these particular snails since I have a few nasty verms here and there.


What dosage did you use? And what versions? Regular interceptor and sentinel? Or the spectrum versions? That info will help me run a trial.

My next move is to do a little research and see what the highest safe dosage people have used and see how that compares to what I've tried already. If I can increase to a dose that will still be safe for a tank I will try that. The alternative is to do a super dose and see if this stuff will do anything at all then try to evaluate how safe it is before coming up with a dosing strategy for my tank

The other thing I might be missing is I'm running a sponge in the a.c. filter. Ive noticed my sentinel solution has some solids to it and in wondering if the Verms need to ingest it directly. My gut says the solids are fillers and not active ingredients, but its a possibility.

[pisanoal]

Following as well.....sick of seeing these guys. I have done manual removal methods only to miss a tiny one and they come back..

I feel you. I tried hard to keep these things out of my new setup. Had them all over in my old. Started dry rock and sand, acid cleaned all equipment, carefully removed all I could see from coral bases and dipped in Bayer. They still popped up on the coral and I would get then when I saw them. Eventually they escaped to the rock work. And here we are...

[jda]

OG interceptor way back when Dustin first released the formula. ...whatever that dosage was.

I cannot remember what the sentinel was.

I have interceptor tasty chews, but never had to use them... I have gotten better at keeping pests out.

[Kayvon]

I've tried Prazipro at higher than recommended doses (can't remember the exact amount). It doesn't work I'm afraid. I remember it eliminated the slime trails for a while, so it might have caused them to retreat temporarily.

[pisanoal]

I've tried Prazipro at higher than recommended doses (can't remember the exact amount). It doesn't work I'm afraid. I remember it eliminated the slime trails for a while, so it might have caused them to retreat temporarily.



Thanks for your input. I also tried prazipro. I added it a couple of days ago at about 4x reocommended dose. There is also praziquantel in the sentinel spectrum, so the dose is even higher. Didnt notice a reduction in webs, but there is not a lot of suspended detritus in the test tank, so I dont notice them anyway. Maybe prolonged exposure to prazipro if it has an effect on their feeding could be a solution to evaluate.

I'm out of town for the next few days and havent done any wc's or added any carbon. So the meds are still floating around in the test tank. We will see what things look like when I return.

Anyone know any treatments for other pests that are not considered snail safe?

[pisanoal]

OG interceptor way back when Dustin first released the formula. ...whatever that dosage was.

I cannot remember what the sentinel was.

I have interceptor tasty chews, but never had to use them... I have gotten better at keeping pests out.

I've read multiple times that regular interceptor doesn't work for these guys. I was hoping the anecdotal evidence of spectrum would be accurate, but it appears not to be.

Good to hear on keeping pests out. Much easier to deal with that way.

[pisanoal]

Quick update, large dose of sentinel spectrum and rxtra dose of prazipro did not take these out. I'm headed on vacation for a week, so I did not do any more testing in preparation. When I return, the next thing on the list is fenbendazole.

[iced98lx]

Anecdotal at best but I noticed a significant decrease in webs and growth/multiplication when my dosing of Lanthanum Chloride spilled over the filter sock and the tank became cloudy with the precipitate. Most agree it's not healthy for fish/filter feeders however. It's my guess that the vermetid snails did not appreciate it in their webs. Might be worth trying if you've got the setup to do so. Nothing in my tank appeared worse for wear though I did not have any clams/many filter feeders.

[kainic]

Subscribed. I don't think a chemical aproach will be our final solution to this battle. This snails can protect themselves from the environment due to its door type shell. If they feel they are in danger they retract to the base and close and I think it's near to hermetic.
Will you do tests with a biological approach such as natural predators?

[pisanoal]

Anecdotal at best but I noticed a significant decrease in webs and growth/multiplication when my dosing of Lanthanum Chloride spilled over the filter sock and the tank became cloudy with the precipitate. Most agree it's not healthy for fish/filter feeders however. It's my guess that the vermetid snails did not appreciate it in their webs. Might be worth trying if you've got the setup to do so. Nothing in my tank appeared worse for wear though I did not have any clams/many filter feeders.Thanks for the info, ill add it to the list to try if the fenbendazole dewormerr does not work.

I agree that its pretty well thought that LaCl particulate is bad for the tank, so we can work on that hurdle if it appears to be effective.

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[pisanoal]

Subscribed. I don't think a chemical aproach will be our final solution to this battle. This snails can protect themselves from the environment due to its door type shell. If they feel they are in danger they retract to the base and close and I think it's near to hermetic.
Will you do tests with a biological approach such as natural predators?No I will not be testing natural predators, please reread my initial post.

As for your comment about them being able to protect themselves, that is only true for a finite amount of time. They can't seal themselves forever. They need to respire like any other living creature and need to exchange water to do so. There is anecdotal evidence of killing them with various treatments for other pests.

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[jda]

Treated my acropora isolation tank with Interceptor Spectrum a few days ago at normal Red Bug doses (23mg of MO per 300G). V snails are mad and have not been out making any webs, but I doubt that they are dead. If for some reason they end up dying, I will post back, but I doubt it too...

[pisanoal]

Sorry for the long delay folks. I went on vacation, had to travel a week for work, and have had some other home projects going on.

So here's the update... I really was hoping something less potent was going to work on these suckers, so that's what I tested first. But I was pretty confident that fendbendazole would work. Well, I was wrong, at least at the dosage I tried. As I have said a few times, my main source for this chemical working is a thread on another forum called "Here it is! Fendbendazole use against hydroids". The OP used a product called safeguard 4, which has the active ingredient, fendbendazole. The catch is, there are granules in the packet and there is powder. The granules are the fenbendazole. So he painstakingly separated out the granules, crushed them up, and dosed it that way. Later in the thread, someone found a new source of fendbendazole, a pure packet on amazon that can be dosed as is. The product is called fish bendazole. I purchased that product in hopes of trying it, but later in that thread, and on RC, users stated that it was not affecting the vermetids. So I came to the conclusion that it was another chemical in the safeguard 4 that was actually killing them. So based on this theory, I decided I would use the safeguard.

I went through the process of separating the granules, and placed them in 100 ml of RODI water. I then put it through the blender to thoroughly crush and disperse the granules. Now lets talk about dosage for a second... In the original account, the OP of the "other" thread said they used 1-4 gram packet (separated) to treat 125 gallons of water. But later, they stated that they used pure fendbendazole at 250 mg for 175 gal and was recommending a dose of 1.5 mg/gal. The safeguard 4 packets say they are 22.2% fendbendazole. So if the granules are the fenbendazole, then 22.2% of 4 grams is 888mg. For 125 gallons, this is 7.1 mg/gal. They argue this in the other thread, but never come to a consensus.

Anyways, I dosed the approx. 1.5 mg per gallon in my ten gallon test tank and waited 48 hours. Guess What!! nothing... So dosed another 2 doses. So if you are doing the math with me, that's 4.5 mg per gallon or 3x the "recommended" (?) dose. In 48 hours, guess what now?? Yep, good job, nothing! Those little b-words (the longer one) still poke their little indignant heads out of their annoying little shells.

Now I have ordered a couple more fish for my display, and im trying a clam for the first time, so I need my qt tank back to set up for the clam to sit in to make sure he's not carrying any ich cysts. I think before I throw this rock back in the tank in exasperation, Ill put it in a bucket with a powerhead and try 8 mg/gallon of fenbendazole, heck maybe 10 just because I can...

Ill check back in, but if that doesn't work, then this is "To be continued at a later date". Please keep the discussion going if someone else finds this thread and thinks they have something that is worth testing.

[Mrs. Music]

Has anyone tried running a wire brush over the visible verm snails while doing the treatment? My thinking is that the brush would damage them a bit and allowe medication to penetrade the shell.

[pisanoal]

Has anyone tried running a wire brush over the visible verm snails while doing the treatment? My thinking is that the brush would damage them a bit and allowe medication to penetrade the shell.I haven't tried this, but typically before I administer medication, I feed the tank so they are out and active. They dont stay holed up for days when I have done these treatments, may be maybe a few minutes, but then they come out and are fully exposed to it.

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[Mrs. Music]

I believe a wire brush would damage the shell and expose them to more of the treatment.

[pisanoal]

I believe a wire brush would damage the shell and expose them to more of the treatment.

Thank you for your comments, but let's suppose our final solution requires that a wire brush be ran over their shell to be effective. How woukd you propose a person who cant remove their rocks from say a 300 gallon with 200 lbs of live rock in the display and 200 pounds of rock in their sump woild get to all of them?

I don't believe it will make any difference to the treatments, and is not a practical addition to a recommended treatment protocol.

[Mrs. Music]

Thank you for your comments, but let's suppose our final solution requires that a wire brush be ran over their shell to be effective. How woukd you propose a person who cant remove their rocks from say a 300 gallon with 200 lbs of live rock in the display and 200 pounds of rock in their sump woild get to all of them?

I don't believe it will make any difference to the treatments, and is not a practical addition to a recommended treatment protocol.

I truly do wish you luck with this endeavor. It does make a difference however. I am sharing with you the method I used to successfully rid my tank of these pests. Neither manual removal nor chemical removal has proven successful. But combining the two worked. I was merely hoping you might lightly brush one rock to compare it to the rocks that receive chemical treatment only. good luck.

[pisanoal]

I truly do wish you luck with this endeavor. It does make a difference however. I am sharing with you the method I used to successfully rid my tank of these pests. Neither manual removal nor chemical removal has proven successful. But combining the two worked. I was merely hoping you might lightly brush one rock to compare it to the rocks that receive chemical treatment only. good luck.

Since this a thread about getting rid of these pests, would you mind posting your full treatment protocol you used to successfully rid your tank of them. For example, what you dosed, at what concentration, how many times and at what interval? Did you brush them with a wire brush before each treatment? Was it a single treatment?

Thanks for your input. Hopefully your method is something we can all learn from, and benefit.

[2000se]

gas I tell ya.....gas and a match! :hb2: haha

I so hope someone gets to a solution on this...these things are terrible. and the multiple like crazy..

subscribed

[Mrs. Music]

Thank you for the kind reply. I didn't have a protocol. We removed all the LR from my 180 and squirted or brushed hair peroxide, #40 developer, on the bryopsis and v snails with a quick brush of a new wire brush over the algae or v snails. Then rinsed each rock in salt water and placed it back in the tank. This was my valentines day gift from my husband...lol. I bet he wished he had just gotten me a fish! Although the bryosis came back many years later I have very few v snails. They were awful prior to the treatment. Good luck. I hope see this come to fruition.

[tlc]

i wasnt plagued with these snails by any means but i did notice an extreme decline in population when i started microscrubbing my tank. i have been scrubbing the tank for about 5 months now. prior to scrubbing i was seeing the snail growth population expanding. now there is only a few left in the tank. oddly they are growing out of the top of a lepto i have.

[pisanoal]

Thank you for the kind reply. I didn't have a protocol. We removed all the LR from my 180 and squirted or brushed hair peroxide, #40 developer, on the bryopsis and v snails with a quick brush of a new wire brush over the algae or v snails. Then rinsed each rock in salt water and placed it back in the tank. This was my valentines day gift from my husband...lol. I bet he wished he had just gotten me a fish! Although the bryosis came back many years later I have very few v snails. They were awful prior to the treatment. Good luck. I hope see this come to fruition.

Thanks for explaining your method. I will take that into consideration. Although it doesn't meet my criteria fully, it may be that I don't find a chemical solution that doesn't involve removing rocks. unfortunately, without this method, we will never fully eliminate them from a tank (which is the main goal of this thread) without nuking the whole tank and starting over.

Moving on, my clam did not make the journey, so after my fish are done with the quarantine tanks, I will resume testing.

[pisanoal]

i wasnt plagued with these snails by any means but i did notice an extreme decline in population when i started microscrubbing my tank. i have been scrubbing the tank for about 5 months now. prior to scrubbing i was seeing the snail growth population expanding. now there is only a few left in the tank. oddly they are growing out of the top of a lepto i have.

I have heard this several times before, and if we can't come to a complete eradication method, this sounds like a very promising way to manage and reduce plague levels of them.

Do you have it set up on a timer to do it automatically? How often? Do you find salt creep being an issue, or how do you manage the creep?

Thanks for your post

[tlc]

i have the scrubber on a timer set to come on from about 1130 am to 430 am. some recommend longer intervals. if you use a proper wood difuser or other type of micro bubble device the salt creep is very minimal. elegant corals has some great info on the set up

[Froggers]

Have you tried using a molluscicide like potassium permanganate?

There are other natural molluscicides that could work like seeds, extracts and oils of Azadirachta indica (neem), Cedrus deodara (cedar), Allium sativum (garlic), Polianthes tuberosa (tuberosebulb), Zingiber officinale (ginger), Lawsonia inermis (henna), Annona squamosa (custard apple), Sapindus trifoliatus (soap nut), Acacia concinna (shikakai), Madhuca indica (mowra, honey tree), Phytolacca acinosa (pokeweed) or combinations with other plant-derived molluscicides that are very effective against both adult snails and their reproduction.

I dosed one of my tanks with Hydrogen Peroxide daily a few years ago in an effort to control bryopsis. The dosing really had no affect on the Bryopsis however it did completely eradicate my tank of planaria and snails.

[pisanoal]

i have the scrubber on a timer set to come on from about 1130 am to 430 am. some recommend longer intervals. if you use a proper wood difuser or other type of micro bubble device the salt creep is very minimal. elegant corals has some great info on the set up

Ill check it out. Thanks for the info.

[pisanoal]

Have you tried using a molluscicide like potassium permanganate?

There are other natural molluscicides that could work like seeds, extracts and oils of Azadirachta indica (neem), Cedrus deodara (cedar), Allium sativum (garlic), Polianthes tuberosa (tuberosebulb), Zingiber officinale (ginger), Lawsonia inermis (henna), Annona squamosa (custard apple), Sapindus trifoliatus (soap nut), Acacia concinna (shikakai), Madhuca indica (mowra, honey tree), Phytolacca acinosa (pokeweed) or combinations with other plant-derived molluscicides that are very effective against both adult snails and their reproduction.

I dosed one of my tanks with Hydrogen Peroxide daily a few years ago in an effort to control bryopsis. The dosing really had no affect on the Bryopsis however it did completely eradicate my tank of planaria and snails.


I have not given it any thought, thanks for the suggestions. Would be interesting to find dosage levels that would be considered reef safe. Especially of the peroxide and permanganate.

[pisanoal]

I just read/skimmed the advanced aquarist article you quoted. Interesting read. Doesn't appear like KMnO4 is a good candidate for in tank treatment though. Still worth a shot as maybe lower dosages will effect vermetids.

[Nemeziz_za]

Subscribed

I just went through a 900 gallon tear down and did some pretty extreme rock nuking.

Not something I ever want to have to do again, I'd probably just raise the white flag.

[fishguy597]

I believe a wire brush would damage the shell and expose them to more of the treatment.

Only problem is, you will miss some of the smaller ones and they will multiply. I truely hope you can find something to get rid of these guys. I ultimately had to nuke my rock and seed it with existing lr. I must have checked the existing lr 10x's and kept on finding new snails until the 7th time. They hide every where lr,sump,overflows,ext.

[Froggers]

The dosage I used for algae was a little less than 1ml per 10 gallons of 3% hydrogen peroxide added daily. If you try this start lower dosage. I dosed for about 3 or 4 months. I do not know at what stage I killed off all the flat worms. Your skimmer will go nuts.

As far as the potassium permanganate I believe Kent Marine Poly-Ox has this in it. Kent Marine provides a recommended dosage for reef tanks as well. Jungle Clear Water is potassium permanganate but only give a recommended dose for freshwater tanks and ponds.

Everyone that has failed using potassium permanganate have used higher dosages trying to get a quick knock down. I think at a lower dose for a longer period might work and be safer. Just be prepared to lose snails, clams and any other worms and such. Might cause your nitrates and ammonia to spike with the die off. Could kill off some of the bacteria in the rocks.

I have not given it any thought, thanks for the suggestions. Would be interesting to find dosage levels that would be considered reef safe. Especially of the peroxide and permanganate.

[Froggers]

Kent Marine poly-ox is not potassium permanganate it is H2MnO4 that acts like potassium permanganate (KMnO4). Kordon Permoxyn is 3.8% potassium permanganate KMnO4. If you decide to go this route hydrogen peroxide is the antidote.

If I were going to try this method I would first set up a test tank and test what strength is needed to kill the vermetid snails. Then I would test it with a few pieces of different expendable coral frags to see how they react.

Some information on KMnO4 can be found at http://www.discusforums.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-20752.html

[pisanoal]

The dosage I used for algae was a little less than 1ml per 10 gallons of 3% hydrogen peroxide added daily. If you try this start lower dosage. I dosed for about 3 or 4 months. I do not know at what stage I killed off all the flat worms. Your skimmer will go nuts.

As far as the potassium permanganate I believe Kent Marine Poly-Ox has this in it. Kent Marine provides a recommended dosage for reef tanks as well. Jungle Clear Water is potassium permanganate but only give a recommended dose for freshwater tanks and ponds.

Everyone that has failed using potassium permanganate have used higher dosages trying to get a quick knock down. I think at a lower dose for a longer period might work and be safer. Just be prepared to lose snails, clams and any other worms and such. Might cause your nitrates and ammonia to spike with the die off. Could kill off some of the bacteria in the rocks.



Ok, Thanks for the info.

[Nemeziz_za]

Curious if there has been any progress or further thoughts or findings in this research thread.

[pisanoal]

Curious if there has been any progress or further thoughts or findings in this research thread.I had to pause it to set up a longer term qt tank. I'm setting it back up now and getting ready to start testing. I've got a few more ideas to try too

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[Nemeziz_za]

I had to pause it to set up a longer term qt tank. I'm setting it back up now and getting ready to start testing. I've got a few more ideas to try too

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Great to hear, I'm subscribed to your thread and thank you for your perseverance.

[jda]

This is completely anecdotal, but I inherited a longnose butterfly about a month ago. While it cannot eat them, it seems to irritate them enough that I have not seen as many new ones around - I usually cut them in the tank with some bone cutters and then the fish clean them up. This could mean nothing and this is just a down-cycle.

FWIW - I have some, but never enough to be really mad about them.

[JDuong916]

I read somewhere about someone using coral snow. I guess it makes the water clear and the verms cant eat and die. I am 99% sure it probably doesn't work, but I read it somewhere.

I'm at the exact same point as you, every thing settled and growing including billions of vermetids.

[ReefKeeper64]

If you don’t come up with a better solution, then here is a thought.

Remove your corals to a holding tank and dose the display tank with a standard dose of chloroquine phosphate. Just one dose will wipe out your entire snail population. I know because I treated a case of ich this way before. Snails went quick. It took a few weeks after before I could keep snails again. I deplore vermetid snails. Their webs and cones are unsightly. If I ever get a case of these, I won’t hesitate one bit to nuke them this way. The tank will recover in short order and the corals will make it in a holding tank for a few weeks.

[Jose Mayo]

There is a product, used in organic agriculture to control slugs and snails, that could be efficient to control vermetides: Ferric phosphate.

The trademark of the product is Ferramol® Organic, but for the purpose of experimentation I believe that the use of saturated GFO may be attempted by the aquarist. Ideally, the saturated GFO should be dry and ground by dosing the product on the display when the vermetides are with their nets extended to ensure they can ingest it, and then wait for the results.

There is no defined dose to use for this purpose. Caution is required.

The mechanism of action is explained here: The potential for slug control with ferric phosphate (http://orgprints.org/10232/1/The_potential_for_slug_control_with_ferric_phosphate.pdf)

It seems to be safe for animals except slugs and snails.

Best regards

[tastyfish]

Following with interest.

I note from your posts so far that you are expecting almost an instantaneous effect on the vermatids? Perhaps setting an observation of 14 days would be more realistic.

If a treatment is not having an effect after 14 days, then it's likely not going to.

Good luck on your quest

[DarkSkyForever]

I've had great success getting rid of them by starving them out - I switched to feeding floating pellet food instead of mysis and other meaty foods that sink in the water column. I would drop a pinch of pellets, wait for it to be eaten, then repeat as needed. About a month later I have mostly empty tubes. I also superglued the larger snails when I found them, and scraped smaller ones where possible. Now I have zero that I can find.

[shred5]

I've had great success getting rid of them by starving them out - I switched to feeding floating pellet food instead of mysis and other meaty foods that sink in the water column. I would drop a pinch of pellets, wait for it to be eaten, then repeat as needed. About a month later I have mostly empty tubes. I also superglued the larger snails when I found them, and scraped smaller ones where possible. Now I have zero that I can find.


Same here. They came in on a frag from a friend who had hundreds in his tank. In my tank they took off under the rocks (Floating shelf) there was hundreds of them in no time.

I stopped feeding the tank and started feeding the fish and in 6 months almost all dead.

[tastyfish]

I've had great success getting rid of them by starving them out - I switched to feeding floating pellet food instead of mysis and other meaty foods that sink in the water column. I would drop a pinch of pellets, wait for it to be eaten, then repeat as needed. About a month later I have mostly empty tubes. I also superglued the larger snails when I found them, and scraped smaller ones where possible. Now I have zero that I can find.

Although off topic for the OP, I agree and this has been my approach. Although I still have them (the small, needle sharp species), their numbers dwindled from thousands to probably only a handful of web-slingers. I removed and replaced half of the rock and I have yet to see any new vermatids colonise it.

I feed three times a day with pellet on an autofeeder and supplement with frozen. I have not used coral food for a long time, which is not going to suit everyone TBH.



If you don’t come up with a better solution, then here is a thought.

Remove your corals to a holding tank and dose the display tank with a standard dose of chloroquine phosphate. Just one dose will wipe out your entire snail population. I know because I treated a case of ich this way before. Snails went quick. It took a few weeks after before I could keep snails again. I deplore vermetid snails. Their webs and cones are unsightly. If I ever get a case of these, I won’t hesitate one bit to nuke them this way. The tank will recover in short order and the corals will make it in a holding tank for a few weeks.


Although ReefKeeper is correct, Chloroquine will kill vermatids and other snails, it will kill ALL invertebrates and will likely cause severe ammonia spikes and die off. I would only use this with EXTREME caution. It is certainly NOT a reef safe option.

[ReefKeeper64]

Although off topic for the OP, I agree and this has been my approach. Although I still have them (the small, needle sharp species), their numbers dwindled from thousands to probably only a handful of web-slingers. I removed and replaced half of the rock and I have yet to see any new vermatids colonise it.

I feed three times a day with pellet on an autofeeder and supplement with frozen. I have not used coral food for a long time, which is not going to suit everyone TBH.






Although ReefKeeper is correct, Chloroquine will kill vermatids and other snails, it will kill ALL invertebrates and will likely cause severe ammonia spikes and die off. I would only use this with EXTREME caution. It is certainly NOT a reef safe option.

Compared to other options it makes sense for some but not all. I have done this successfully without issue. If you have a strong filtration system, I would imagine that others can can do this same treatment without having an ammonia spike. CP is also run in display tanks in the retail fish and coral industry. I'm speaking from experience here.

To be fair, this isn't a reef treatment, its a fish only treatment. That means removing all corals and inverts and placing them in a QT tank. The DT becomes a temporary fish only tank. Gradually start the treatment and phase it in over a couple of weeks. Snail and worm die off will occur as desired. If you get an ammonia reading, dose amquil and aerate your tank well. The CP breaks down over time (weeks, not months). amquil and CP are safe together. Again, I've been down this path and tested to be sure. You can remove the CP when ready using carbon and water changes. Add a sacrificial snail to test and when the snail lives you know you are in the clear. Considering the alternatives, this was the best treatment for my situation. It was easy and effective so perhaps this method may help another hobbyist.

[tastyfish]

Compared to other options it makes sense for some but not all. I have done this successfully without issue. If you have a strong filtration system, I would imagine that others can can do this same treatment without having an ammonia spike. CP is also run in display tanks in the retail fish and coral industry. I'm speaking from experience here.

To be fair, this isn't a reef treatment, its a fish only treatment. That means removing all corals and inverts and placing them in a QT tank. The DT becomes a temporary fish only tank. Gradually start the treatment and phase it in over a couple of weeks. Snail and worm die off will occur as desired. If you get an ammonia reading, dose amquil and aerate your tank well. The CP breaks down over time (weeks, not months). amquil and CP are safe together. Again, I've been down this path and tested to be sure. You can remove the CP when ready using carbon and water changes. Add a sacrificial snail to test and when the snail lives you know you are in the clear. Considering the alternatives, this was the best treatment for my situation. It was easy and effective so perhaps this method may help another hobbyist.


A friend used CP in the display out of desperation as unable to catch and QT fish. He had massive ammonia spikes which wiped out a good number of his fish in a system over over 1200l.

It’s certainly not something I would advise due to the die off caused.

Can you let me know where Chloroquine is used systematically? AFAIK you cannot test for Chloroquine. It is not known if carbon removes it OR what it’s natural breakdown period is (as it can’t be tested for).

Would very much like to hear about any tests for Chloroquine you can point me in the direction of as that is its biggest drawback IME in general treatment.

[rc1626]

If you don’t come up with a better solution, then here is a thought.

Remove your corals to a holding tank and dose the display tank with a standard dose of chloroquine phosphate. Just one dose will wipe out your entire snail population. I know because I treated a case of ich this way before. Snails went quick. It took a few weeks after before I could keep snails again. I deplore vermetid snails. Their webs and cones are unsightly. If I ever get a case of these, I won’t hesitate one bit to nuke them this way. The tank will recover in short order and the corals will make it in a holding tank for a few weeks.

Could you please let me know how much you dosed? I'm about to give this a shot and want to make sure I'm dosing enough. It is said that CP will break down in a DT with rock and sand. Did you have to do any additional doses? Did you run any carbon or do water changes when you were done? If so how soon after dosing? From what I've read the standard dose is about 40mg/gallon but could go as high as 80mg/gallon.

Sorry for so many questions. Just seems that you have the experience with some good results.

Thanks in advance.

[ReefKeeper64]

You can tell that you need do dose more when algae starts growing on your glass again.

My experiences are with commercial and personal tanks. In all cases, these are ULN systems and the filtration is able to keep up with the die off. with that in mind, you don’t want to hit your tank hard with a strong dose up front. Rather, you want to slowly introduce this medication. It will absolutely work provided you don’t do this too quickly. Your first sign that the CP is working is that you stop having to clean the glass so often. All algae dies off, snails and worms die off too. If you have a mature tank with lots of worms, then they are going to increase your risk of an ammonia spike.

Now if you detect ammonia with a test kit, then dose amquel. Both products are compatible.

So the truly difficult part is taking this slow while knowing it will work as long as the die off doesn’t all happen overnight. Since I don’t know your tank, I would advise to go ultra slow with 10% of the typical dose added to your tank once per week over a period of up to 10 weeks. The first three weeks you will know if your filtration system can handle the snail the die off. Just keep dosing 10% per week eventually it will kick in. You probably won’t even need to get up to go the full 10 weeks. When all the snails are dead, just leave the med in the tank for another month and enjoy the algae free and snail free look of you new tank. Then introduce carbon and water changes.

To minimize risk, I would not turn off your skimmer at any point and I would also plan to change out your filter socks every couple of days.

Note that the commercial (LFS) tanks and personal tank are all relatively new tanks where CP was planned for from the beginning. The LFS tanks are given small maintenance doses every two weeks or so when the glass starts to show an algae haze. If your tank is mature with lots of worms then you could have die off just like if you dosed prazipro in your DT. Both are safe with caution but you have to go slowly. Both will kill all the worms in your tank and ammonia may become an issue so tastyfish’s story is something to be concerned about. Manually remove all the regular snails and worms you can find with a fish net going through the sand.

[rc1626]

Great advice! Thank you for taking the time to lay out the procedure. My tank is @ about 10 months old so there are a decent amount of critters around that will die off. I have 13 fish with plenty of rock so with the advice of going slow my bacterial population should be able to handle the load. I will certainly have some Amquel on hand just in case. Still not 100% certain I will do this but leaning heavily in this direction.
Thanks again.

[Dmorty217]

A friend used CP in the display out of desperation as unable to catch and QT fish. He had massive ammonia spikes which wiped out a good number of his fish in a system over over 1200l.

It’s certainly not something I would advise due to the die off caused.

Can you let me know where Chloroquine is used systematically? AFAIK you cannot test for Chloroquine. It is not known if carbon removes it OR what it’s natural breakdown period is (as it can’t be tested for).

Would very much like to hear about any tests for Chloroquine you can point me in the direction of as that is its biggest drawback IME in general treatment.

You can use a spectrophotometer to check levels of CP. The machine is very expensive is the biggest drawback.

[ReefKeeper64]

Great advice! Thank you for taking the time to lay out the procedure. My tank is @ about 10 months old so there are a decent amount of critters around that will die off. I have 13 fish with plenty of rock so with the advice of going slow my bacterial population should be able to handle the load. I will certainly have some Amquel on hand just in case. Still not 100% certain I will do this but leaning heavily in this direction.
Thanks again.

Glad I could help. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask.

[rc1626]

Glad I could help. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask.

I certainly will. Thanks again.

[tastyfish]

You can tell that you need do dose more when algae starts growing on your glass again.

My experiences are with commercial and personal tanks. In all cases, these are ULN systems and the filtration is able to keep up with the die off. with that in mind, you don’t want to hit your tank hard with a strong dose up front. Rather, you want to slowly introduce this medication. It will absolutely work provided you don’t do this too quickly. Your first sign that the CP is working is that you stop having to clean the glass so often. All algae dies off, snails and worms die off too. If you have a mature tank with lots of worms, then they are going to increase your risk of an ammonia spike.

Now if you detect ammonia with a test kit, then dose amquel. Both products are compatible.

So the truly difficult part is taking this slow while knowing it will work as long as the die off doesn’t all happen overnight. Since I don’t know your tank, I would advise to go ultra slow with 10% of the typical dose added to your tank once per week over a period of up to 10 weeks. The first three weeks you will know if your filtration system can handle the snail the die off. Just keep dosing 10% per week eventually it will kick in. You probably won’t even need to get up to go the full 10 weeks. When all the snails are dead, just leave the med in the tank for another month and enjoy the algae free and snail free look of you new tank. Then introduce carbon and water changes.

To minimize risk, I would not turn off your skimmer at any point and I would also plan to change out your filter socks every couple of days.

Note that the commercial (LFS) tanks and personal tank are all relatively new tanks where CP was planned for from the beginning. The LFS tanks are given small maintenance doses every two weeks or so when the glass starts to show an algae haze. If your tank is mature with lots of worms then you could have die off just like if you dosed prazipro in your DT. Both are safe with caution but you have to go slowly. Both will kill all the worms in your tank and ammonia may become an issue so tastyfish’s story is something to be concerned about. Manually remove all the regular snails and worms you can find with a fish net going through the sand.

You can use a spectrophotometer to check levels of CP. The machine is very expensive is the biggest drawback.

That's really interesting, thanks. Looks like they range from about $2500-$12,000 and upwards, plus software and the ability to actually interpret the results...

Slowly building up the dose makes sense, so long as you do not go beyond the target dose. What level would you envisage going to? I would use 12mg/l of cholorquine for treatment of cryptocaryon in most fish - however I'm not sure this would be needed for inverticide!? :)

[ReefKeeper64]

That's really interesting, thanks. Looks like they range from about $2500-$12,000 and upwards, plus software and the ability to actually interpret the results...

Slowly building up the dose makes sense, so long as you do not go beyond the target dose. What level would you envisage going to? I would use 12mg/l of cholorquine for treatment of cryptocaryon in most fish - however I'm not sure this would be needed for inverticide!? :)

We usually use CP purchased from fishman chemical dot com. Lately I've switched to the off the shelf version since we have it in stock. Its called new life spectrum called ick shield powder. You can read the ingredients online. new life spectrum is reputable and uses a form of CP that has been proven to work just as effectively as fishman's. My last use of it was to cure a powder blue tang of ick. It worked fine and the power blue has been healthy for a few months now. I wouldn't go to the bother with the cost of getting a vet prescription for CP unless I had a buddy who could write a prescription for free. If you go with the over the counter version, just follow the instructions on the bottle and use the 10% per week formula based off of that. I would not go to 100% over 10 weeks unless you still have Vsnails in your tank. I doubt you will need to go beyond 5 weeks but I've never gone that slow so I don't really know for sure. Plus again, every tank is unique. It will be safe and will work. I'm only going into this much detail because I had a case of vermetid snails years ago and would have paid dearly for such a simple method to get rid of them. Figured I'd pass on what I know now. Good luck again.

[rc1626]

I have a small fighting conch and a few nassarius snails I am going to need to pull out and put in a holding tank. Anyone know if they can survive without a sand bed for a few weeks? I thought of putting a couple of large zip lock containers on the bottom of the holding tank filled with some DT sand for them to live in. What do you think would be my best option?
Thanks.

[ReefKeeper64]

People keep snails in bare bottom tanks all the time. They will happily clean the glass even if there is no sand. Just put a little fish food in the holding tank so you get a little build up of algae on the glass.

Make sure your snails aren’t carrying any vermetid snails or their eggs with them. You should have plenty of time to find out while they are In your holding tank. If you see signs of pests/vermetid snails or webs in your holding tank, chuck em or put them back in the ocean if you live are near one.

When your treatment is over, your tank will still be fully cycled and 100% pest free. That is, no aptasia, no vermetids, no ick, no velvet, no red bugs, no worms, nothing but healthy fish.

[rc1626]

Thank you. My above sand snails are all getting a good look over with a shell brushing. Just wasn't sure about my sand sifters. Holding tank is pretty well established with plenty of algae so I'm assuming they will be ok.

[LobsterOfJustice]

chuck em or put them back in the ocean if you live are near one.


No, never do this! Even with something apparently heathy you can introduce non-native species or diseases to the wild - and especially in this example, when you already know you are dealing with an invasive pest!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ReefKeeper64]

No, never do this! Even with something apparently heathy you can introduce non-native species or diseases to the wild - and especially in this example, when you already know you are dealing with an invasive pest!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In my case, I'd chuck em in the garbage but you just know that the minute I said that, someone would accuse me of being a snail killer!

[tkeracer619]

I finished removing the coral and snails last night from my 600gal display. It's currently fishless.

Going to start dosing CP tonight. Going after flatworms that I haven't been able to kill with levamisole or FWE, Vermatids, Aptasia, and hopefully bubble algae.

I have a massive skimmer and no fish so I am not sure I need to worry too much about an ammonia spike. My plan is to dose 20mg/gal tonight and do an additional dose of 20mg/gal once my resupply of CP arrives on Monday.

I was planning on doing a second 40mg/gal dose around day 10 just to be sure. My display started fallow on Nov 25th so I wasn't planning on adding fish back until Feb 11th and corals/inverts back until mid March. Thinking that should allow plenty of time for the CP to be removed from the system.

[ReefKeeper64]

I finished removing the coral and snails last night from my 600gal display. It's currently fishless.

Going to start dosing CP tonight. Going after flatworms that I haven't been able to kill with levamisole or FWE, Vermatids, Aptasia, and hopefully bubble algae.

I have a massive skimmer and no fish so I am not sure I need to worry too much about an ammonia spike. My plan is to dose 20mg/gal tonight and do an additional dose of 20mg/gal once my resupply of CP arrives on Monday.

I was planning on doing a second 40mg/gal dose around day 10 just to be sure. My display started fallow on Nov 25th so I wasn't planning on adding fish back until Feb 11th and corals/inverts back until mid March. Thinking that should allow plenty of time for the CP to be removed from the system.

This sounds like a solid plan. The only suggestion is you may be able to start adding fish earlier than Feb 11th if you want to. Just monitor for ammonia a week after you have started your CP treatment. If your ammonia is 0, then your biological filtration is working well. You'll be able to treat your fish with CP at the same time as you are treating your tank. This is what I did and it was a home run. Again, only if you want to.

[rc1626]

I finished removing the coral and snails last night from my 600gal display. It's currently fishless.

Going to start dosing CP tonight. Going after flatworms that I haven't been able to kill with levamisole or FWE, Vermatids, Aptasia, and hopefully bubble algae.

I have a massive skimmer and no fish so I am not sure I need to worry too much about an ammonia spike. My plan is to dose 20mg/gal tonight and do an additional dose of 20mg/gal once my resupply of CP arrives on Monday.

I was planning on doing a second 40mg/gal dose around day 10 just to be sure. My display started fallow on Nov 25th so I wasn't planning on adding fish back until Feb 11th and corals/inverts back until mid March. Thinking that should allow plenty of time for the CP to be removed from the system.

Over the past couple of nights I've been doing the move as well. Last night was the CUC. I will look for any stragglers tonight along with removing my skunk cleaner. After that I'll be ready to go. Probably start tomorrow night if all looks good.

Good luck to you tkeracer619
Hope all goes well.

[tkeracer619]

Good luck to you as well.

I'm an hour in, no trace of flatworms. 3x fwe at 1.5x dose and two levamisole treatments couldn't do that. There was still a few hanging out. I feel bad for all the pods and microlife but it had to be done.

I did have to turn my skimmer down. It started to freak out.

[tastyfish]

We usually use CP purchased from fishman chemical dot com. Lately I've switched to the off the shelf version since we have it in stock. Its called new life spectrum called ick shield powder. You can read the ingredients online. new life spectrum is reputable and uses a form of CP that has been proven to work just as effectively as fishman's. My last use of it was to cure a powder blue tang of ick. It worked fine and the power blue has been healthy for a few months now. I wouldn't go to the bother with the cost of getting a vet prescription for CP unless I had a buddy who could write a prescription for free. If you go with the over the counter version, just follow the instructions on the bottle and use the 10% per week formula based off of that. I would not go to 100% over 10 weeks unless you still have Vsnails in your tank. I doubt you will need to go beyond 5 weeks but I've never gone that slow so I don't really know for sure. Plus again, every tank is unique. It will be safe and will work. I'm only going into this much detail because I had a case of vermetid snails years ago and would have paid dearly for such a simple method to get rid of them. Figured I'd pass on what I know now. Good luck again.

Yeah, unfortunately because of medicine licensing and control, we can't get this in the UK (no one is willing to pay the £10,000 licensing/certification costs to import).

I use Avloclor, from an on-line pharmacist (for my up coming trip to the Dominican Republic, of course. :lmao: )

Should point out, if it hasn't been said already, to remove any algae bed from the system as chloroquine will likely kill it.

Do you have any info on the breakdown time for Chloroquine from your testing with the spectrometer? That would be really useful!

[pisanoal]

Sorry for my long absence, but I'm glad people have taken this over. Life has been busy, and I have temporary lost interest in this research. I will probably take it back up again at some point but here is my current dilemma and why I haven't pursued further. Right now, after a long battle, my tank is finally doing well. My SPS are colored up and growing. I feel that anything I do in the tank to kill vermetids will likely decimate my microfauna population, and i'm not sure I want to do that since i've fought so long to stabilize this tank.

The CP conversation is interesting, and a good alternative if you can keep from reintroducing them on the backs of your snails and frags. Be VERY wary of both situations, and even if you don't see them, there could be some in hard to see places, especially on LPS skeletons. Anything like a branching torch or hammer or sps with dead skeleton underneath where these things could be hiding should go under STRICT extended QT. Inspect/remove any vermetids manually until you are vermetid free for at least 4 weeks. Id consider 3 months.

If possible frag them and reintroduce only living flesh on fresh frag plugs.

One tip: A good spot removal method for QT is to remove them from the water, place a drop of concentrated HCl on them and dissolve the base. That way you are sure not to spread any unseen juveniles/eggs. CAUTION: chemical gloves and goggles are highly recommended for this. Use an eye dropper, not a turkey baster if you attempt this.

[rc1626]

Update:
I'm in a week now with CP treatment. CP was purchased on Ebay. After moving all inverts from my tank I started dosing. I went a little more aggressive then suggested. Instead of the suggested 10% of suggested dose I dosed equally over 4 days to get my tank up to the recommended dose of 40mg/gal.

Over the first couple of days I did not notice much happening as the CP levels increased. All algae looked unaffected and a margarita snail I missed had appeared and looked okay. Fish were unaffected. Even my six line wrasse was fine. I've read that wrasses may be affected by CP. When I fed or gently stirred the sand I did notice a few webs from some vermetids.

By Day 5 I started to notice the coralline algae slightly starting to whiten in some spots. Some hair algae on my power heads still remained green as well as a small patch of turf algae I have on a rock. I also noticed that while stirring the sand gently and feeding I was not noticing anymore webs. At this point my ammonia had started to creep up to .25ppm (API). Amquel was added.

Now on day 7 of treatment (no more CP has been added) much of my purple coralline is still colored although it continues to whiten slowly across the rocks. Still no webs present when feeding and stirring the sand. Ammonia has gone up to ~ .50 so more Amquel added. All fish look unaffected and are eating great. Margarita snail I believe is dead. It is off the rock it was on and now sits in the sand and hasn't moved since day 6. Haven't pulled it yet to inspect and smell.

Tank has a slight cloudiness to it. Skimmer was shut down at the onset. I tried running it a day ago but it was foaming over enough that it was a problem even when the wedge pipe was fully open so I shut it down. Typically I run it at about 50% open. I'm running 4 T5's for 6 hours out of the day with my Mitras led's only running a 2200k spectrum at about 15% for 12hrs. 6 of them with the T5's.

Not sure how long to run it at this concentration. That's if it even still sits at 40mg/gal.(my original dose) due to chemical breakdown. I will continue to monitor for vermetids for at least another week or two and go from there. If algae starts to show itself on the glass I will probably dose again. How much, not sure. I will cross that bridge if and when it presents itself.

HTH

Current fish List for reference:
Rock Beauty Angel
Flame Angel
Potters Angel
Bangai Cardinal
Pair Ocellaris Clownfish
Orchid Dottyback
Blue Green Chromis
Talbots Damsel
Yellow Tang
Flame Hawkfish
Six Line Wrasse
Royal Gramma

[ReefKeeper64]

Update:
I'm in a week now with CP treatment. CP was purchased on Ebay. After moving all inverts from my tank I started dosing. I went a little more aggressive then suggested. Instead of the suggested 10% of suggested dose I dosed equally over 4 days to get my tank up to the recommended dose of 40mg/gal.

Over the first couple of days I did not notice much happening as the CP levels increased. All algae looked unaffected and a margarita snail I missed had appeared and looked okay. Fish were unaffected. Even my six line wrasse was fine. I've read that wrasses may be affected by CP. When I fed or gently stirred the sand I did notice a few webs from some vermetids.

By Day 5 I started to notice the coralline algae slightly starting to whiten in some spots. Some hair algae on my power heads still remained green as well as a small patch of turf algae I have on a rock. I also noticed that while stirring the sand gently and feeding I was not noticing anymore webs. At this point my ammonia had started to creep up to .25ppm (API). Amquel was added.

Now on day 7 of treatment (no more CP has been added) much of my purple coralline is still colored although it continues to whiten slowly across the rocks. Still no webs present when feeding and stirring the sand. Ammonia has gone up to ~ .50 so more Amquel added. All fish look unaffected and are eating great. Margarita snail I believe is dead. It is off the rock it was on and now sits in the sand and hasn't moved since day 6. Haven't pulled it yet to inspect and smell.

Tank has a slight cloudiness to it. Skimmer was shut down at the onset. I tried running it a day ago but it was foaming over enough that it was a problem even when the wedge pipe was fully open so I shut it down. Typically I run it at about 50% open. I'm running 4 T5's for 6 hours out of the day with my Mitras led's only running a 2200k spectrum at about 15% for 12hrs. 6 of them with the T5's.

Not sure how long to run it at this concentration. That's if it even still sits at 40mg/gal.(my original dose) due to chemical breakdown. I will continue to monitor for vermetids for at least another week or two and go from there. If algae starts to show itself on the glass I will probably dose again. How much, not sure. I will cross that bridge if and when it presents itself.

HTH

Current fish List for reference:
Rock Beauty Angel
Flame Angel
Potters Angel
Bangai Cardinal
Pair Ocellaris Clownfish
Orchid Dottyback
Blue Green Chromis
Talbots Damsel
Yellow Tang
Flame Hawkfish
Six Line Wrasse
Royal Gramma

You didn't want to compress the ammonia introduction into such a tight time frame like that. The ammonia level you are seeing is your big concern now as a result of compressing time like that. Raise your skimmer out of the water an inch or so and get it working. Wet skimming is a good idea.

Remember that by introducing Amquel, you are reducing the oxygen level in the water that is available to your fish. A little Amquel is safe but you can only add so much. This is especially of concern if your water is starting to cloud up. If you have an extra pump, put it in your DT facing to the surface to maximize circulation and oxygenation for your fish.

[rc1626]

Daring, impatient, stupid are all ways to describe how I went about this. I will say I was "prepared" and maybe you can add on some of the others.
I've raised my skimmer as you suggested reefkeeper64 and say thank you as I was unaware that Amquel had the effect of limiting o2. Always learning!
My ammonia seems to be on the decline as I tested at 1:00 pm today and the color is somewhere between 0 and .25ppm. Pic attached.
I'm going to continue monitoring ammonia and I have a 50 Gallon batch of fresh saltwater ready to go for a water change if needed.
Thank you again reefkeeper64. Hopefully there won't be a next time but if there is I will heed your advice and certainly take it a little slower.
So far all is looking good.

[tkeracer619]

I'm also a week in but I have no fish in the tank so I haven't measured ammonia.

Don't see webs but I haven't really been paying much attention and my lights are off. My skimmer is all the way down and I reduced the feed to it, it's running but not really producing anything but a small amount of very dry skim.

No flatworms visible since day one. Worms are piled up in a corner from the mp60 I have running. Water is a little cloudy in the 8ft dimension.

I am picking up a 40watt emperor aquatics UV to help break down the CP once this is all over.

Some bubble algae and surprisingly some pods are still hanging in there.

[Vinny Kreyling]

Bubble Algae I can understand being the hard shell.
Would popping them be better?

[ReefKeeper64]

Daring, impatient, stupid are all ways to describe how I went about this. I will say I was "prepared" and maybe you can add on some of the others.
I've raised my skimmer as you suggested reefkeeper64 and say thank you as I was unaware that Amquel had the effect of limiting o2. Always learning!
My ammonia seems to be on the decline as I tested at 1:00 pm today and the color is somewhere between 0 and .25ppm. Pic attached.
I'm going to continue monitoring ammonia and I have a 50 Gallon batch of fresh saltwater ready to go for a water change if needed.
Thank you again reefkeeper64. Hopefully there won't be a next time but if there is I will head your advice and certainly take it a little slower.
So far all is looking good.

From the picture I'd say your ammonia level looks to be very much on the safe side. I've seen much darker API results with Amquel in the mix and all of the fish were fine. We all are always learning so its all good.

More advice that you didn't ask for...

Keep the skimmer skimming wet. I mean really wet. This will get the dead stuff out faster.

Keep a ton of flow going in your display tank. If you need to, buy a spare powerhead. Corals grow faster with better flow anyways so you'll be glad you have it in the long run. Oxygenation is key.

If you see any dead bristle worms or dead other stuff, remove them with a net.

If your water is still cloudy, put that 50 gallon batch of water to use right away. Start with no more than a 20% water change per day. You don't want to make too many changes too fast but smaller water changes per day are healthy.

Even with all of the above, your tank will continue to be medicated for weeks to come. As soon as the ammonia concerns are completely put to rest, you can kick back and enjoy your vermetid free tank!

[rc1626]

From the picture I'd say your ammonia level looks to be very much on the safe side. I've seen much darker API results with Amquel in the mix and all of the fish were fine. We all are always learning so its all good.

More advice that you didn't ask for...

Keep the skimmer skimming wet. I mean really wet. This will get the dead stuff out faster.

Keep a ton of flow going in your display tank. If you need to, buy a spare powerhead. Corals grow faster with better flow anyways so you'll be glad you have it in the long run. Oxygenation is key.

If you see any dead bristle worms or dead other stuff, remove them with a net.

If your water is still cloudy, put that 50 gallon batch of water to use right away. Start with no more than a 20% water change per day. You don't want to make too many changes too fast but smaller water changes per day are healthy.

Even with all of the above, your tank will continue to be medicated for weeks to come. As soon as the ammonia concerns are completely put to rest, you can kick back and enjoy your vermetid free tank!

Whether I ask for advice or not it is always welcome. Thanks for just putting it out there. Flow thankfully is not an issue in my tank or sump. Plenty of powerheads to go around. Skimmer is skimming away. Did a water change today and still everything is looking good. I will do another ammonia test later and go from there.
Thank you.

[tkeracer619]

2 weeks in, did another dose of 40mg/gal

Sponge - dead
Vermatids - dead
Flatworms - dead
Aptasia - dead
Coralline algae - severely impacted
Bristle worms - severely impacted
Amphipods - large population
Bubble algae - fine

Will post updates as I have them.

[ReefKeeper64]

Do you have any progression pictures to share?

[LobsterOfJustice]

I still would like to continue discussing possible treatment options that don't require removing all your coral from the tank. For me, this is not possible. First of all, due to corals being encrusted all over the rock, and second of all, due to vermetids being encrusted all over the corals.

I have been dosing ground CaCO3 several times a week without results (this is supposed to work the same as Coral Snow and remove particulates from the water column. I have also been feeding less and only feeding big particles (I used to feed lots of small foods) in an effort to starve them out. That doesnt seem to be working particularly well either... I think I'm seeing an overall decrease in biodiversity (i.e. I'm starving everyone out) and the diamond gobies seem to stir up a never-ending supply of detritus for them to feed on (I am heavily stocked with fish).

I'm wondering if going the route of poisoned food could be promising. Maybe using seachem Focus to bind a particular medication/chemical to a fine particulate food, and then broadcast feeding 1-2x daily. They will consume more than anything else so even something that would otherwise damage other inverts would be selectively consumed by them. Or possibly super ich shield pellets (which contain CP) ground into a powder?

[pisanoal]

I still would like to continue discussing possible treatment options that don't require removing all your coral from the tank. For me, this is not possible. First of all, due to corals being encrusted all over the rock, and second of all, due to vermetids being encrusted all over the corals.

I have been dosing ground CaCO3 several times a week without results (this is supposed to work the same as Coral Snow and remove particulates from the water column. I have also been feeding less and only feeding big particles (I used to feed lots of small foods) in an effort to starve them out. That doesnt seem to be working particularly well either... I think I'm seeing an overall decrease in biodiversity (i.e. I'm starving everyone out) and the diamond gobies seem to stir up a never-ending supply of detritus for them to feed on (I am heavily stocked with fish).

I'm wondering if going the route of poisoned food could be promising. Maybe using seachem Focus to bind a particular medication/chemical to a fine particulate food, and then broadcast feeding 1-2x daily. They will consume more than anything else so even something that would otherwise damage other inverts would be selectively consumed by them. Or possibly super ich shield pellets (which contain CP) ground into a powder?

I'd be cautious about anything that had CP if you had corals in the system. The medication would have to be ok for the corals to consume as well. Its a tricky subject.

I still have yet to try fenbendazole at the very high dosages that I suspect were actually used in the hydroids thread over on the other forum. Might be worth a try for anyone else willing. I don't have the time or desire right now, maybe in a few weeks when wrestling season is over and I have my free time back.

[ReefKeeper64]

You can actually buy Ick Shield in powder form but I wouldn’t dose that in a stocked reef tank. You’d have to first remove all your animals with the exception of fish. Looks like you need a second tank to hold your corals. At least the ones that have no snails. It will be an easy reset and you will have a snail free tank when finished.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bc/5b/b9/bc5bb913390dab37a6d5fb634e0dea01.jpg

[pisanoal]

You can actually buy Ick Shield in powder form but I wouldn’t dose that in a stocked reef tank. You’d have to first remove all your animals with the exception of fish. Looks like you need a second tank to hold your corals. At least the ones that have no snails. It will be an easy reset and you will have a snail free tank when finished.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bc/5b/b9/bc5bb913390dab37a6d5fb634e0dea01.jpgOnly problem is its very difficult to keep them out of reinfesting your tank from frags depending on what type of coral you have. Ask me how I know.

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[LobsterOfJustice]

I feel like you missed basically everything in my post. I know you can buy Ich Shield powder (I have some), and I know you can't broadcast dose it into a reef tank without killing everything but fish. My suggestion is to use Seachem Focus to bind the medication to food, and then feed the poison food to the vermetids. If any CP leached into the water it would likely be a much smaller dose than the typical broadcast dose (below therapeutic levels), and you could run a bunch of carbon to remove anything that made it into the water column. I also specifically mentioned why removing all corals to a holding tank is not a realistic option for me.

If you were to dose the tank with poison food, any invertebrates that consumed the food could be impacted depending on the poison/medication used. However, at least in my tank, if I broadcast feed the tank with a small food, somewhere between the size of a newly hatched and adult brine shrimp, I feel like most of it would get consumed by the vermetids. I'm sure some would get consumed by corals, but given large healthy colonies and only consuming a few pieces that happen to blow into them, I think they might suffer some irritation but ultimately survive. The vermetids are a lot more efficient at catching particles out of the water column than anything else I've got in my tank.

You can actually buy Ick Shield in powder form but I wouldn’t dose that in a stocked reef tank. You’d have to first remove all your animals with the exception of fish. Looks like you need a second tank to hold your corals. At least the ones that have no snails. It will be an easy reset and you will have a snail free tank when finished.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bc/5b/b9/bc5bb913390dab37a6d5fb634e0dea01.jpg

[pisanoal]

Its worthy of a trial if you have some corals you are willing to risk. My sps are still small so I really can't run the trial without taking losses. I could spare a Duncan head or two. I would start with trying the cp infuswd food and vermetid infested rock in a separate system and see how effective it is and at what levels.

The other concern I have is if they have to consume it to be killed, it might not be 100% effective. Could be a really good control strategy if not though. Broadcast feed once every couple of months to really keep their nunbers down to a few unseen...

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[becon776]

following

[ReefKeeper64]

How are the vermetid snails doing?

[rc1626]

Update:
My tank is free of them as I can see. Once my tank started showing no ammonia again I ran carbon and started a couple of larger water changes. This was at about 9 -10 days after initial treatment. I put a sacrificial monti frag in after about 3 days of running carbon. 3 days after that i noticed no I'll affects so I started adding the rest of my frags. All frags have been returned to the DT and all are doing great. I've continued to run carbon throughout just to be safe.

Once water changes started and carbon was added algae came back fast. Lots of nutrients available now. Just seems to be a green film type. Thankfully no hair algae yet. I've yet to add any snails back as I've given all a scrub with a wire brush and have them in quarantine to make sure there is no more vermetid growth. My two maxima clams have been scrubbed and await their return to the DT as well.

So far so good. Hopefully things continue on the right track.

[tkeracer619]

Once water changes started and carbon was added algae came back fast. Lots of nutrients available now. Just seems to be a green film type. Thankfully no hair algae yet. I've yet to add any snails back as I've given all a scrub with a wire brush and have them in quarantine to make sure there is no more vermetid growth. My two maxima clams have been scrubbed and await their return to the DT as well.

So far so good. Hopefully things continue on the right track.

I'm still running full strength CP. I was planning on moving my cross hatch triggers and queen back in once I get water quality up. Will likely start working on that sometime this weekend.

Looks like it didn't decimate my pod population or bubble algae. A bit of corraline is still left. Everything else is really clean looking. Vermetids are certainly dead.

I almost messed up though, I went to change the media in my carbon reactor and while I had the feed hose running in the sump I never re-installed the empty reactor back in the sump. Not thinking too much of it I cleaned it up real well and got ready to fill it. Looked down the down tube and sure enough, a vermetid was in there... Broke him off and tossed the reactor back on the system without carbon. So make sure all equipment you are using is submerged, running (even with no media), or soaked in vinegar for a while.

Anyways, I ran a phosphate test and it is above the range of the Hanna 736 ULR. I was at .03ppm before this and now it is well above .6ppm. I'll work out a more accurate test but one reason algae may come back with a ferocity is if you pull the chloroquine component out and leave the phosphate in the water it's ripe for an algae bloom.

I'm planning a 400gal water change this weekend and will let you guys know where I stand after that.

Also... I will post some before and after shots once I turn my lights back on.

[pisanoal]

I'm still running full strength CP. I was planning on moving my cross hatch triggers and queen back in once I get water quality up. Will likely start working on that sometime this weekend.

Looks like it didn't decimate my pod population or bubble algae. A bit of corraline is still left. Everything else is really clean looking. Vermetids are certainly dead.

I almost messed up though, I went to change the media in my carbon reactor and while I had the feed hose running in the sump I never re-installed the empty reactor back in the sump. Not thinking too much of it I cleaned it up real well and got ready to fill it. Looked down the down tube and sure enough, a vermetid was in there... Broke him off and tossed the reactor back on the system without carbon. So make sure all equipment you are using is submerged, running (even with no media), or soaked in vinegar for a while.

Anyways, I ran a phosphate test and it is above the range of the Hanna 736 ULR. I was at .03ppm before this and now it is well above .6ppm. I'll work out a more accurate test but one reason algae may come back with a ferocity is if you pull the chloroquine component out and leave the phosphate in the water it's ripe for an algae bloom.

I'm planning a 400gal water change this weekend and will let you guys know where I stand after that.

Also... I will post some before and after shots once I turn my lights back on.Dilute your sample 50:50 with ro water, then run your Hanna test. Not sure how chemistry minded you are but ive got a few ideas for how to do it with a fair amount of accuracy if you need some.

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[rc1626]

Anyways, I ran a phosphate test and it is above the range of the Hanna 736 ULR. I was at .03ppm before this and now it is well above .6ppm. I'll work out a more accurate test but one reason algae may come back with a ferocity is if you pull the chloroquine component out and leave the phosphate in the water it's ripe for an algae bloom.

Good call on the phosphate being left behind. Mine was a 1.6 using my Hanna meter (Not checker) right after putting in carbon and doing a couple of water changes. It's now down to .08. No3 has been close to undetectable using Salifert. I think it's being used up as fast as it being produced.
As for the P04 and algae I may run some gfo to get it down a little. Just don't want to strip my water of it and have problems with corals. For now I'm going to let it run its course unless it gets real bad.

[Vinny Kreyling]

tkeracer619,
Are you up for popping bubbles or just letting them be?

[tkeracer619]

I just left them be. Surely even if I pop the ones I can see they'll show back up. I like to keep a foxface and they love bubble algae. I've had success with vibrant but id need gallons. I may try to remove and pop what I can tonight.

[tkeracer619]

Dilute your sample 50:50 with ro water, then run your Hanna test. Not sure how chemistry minded you are but ive got a few ideas for how to do it with a fair amount of accuracy if you need some.

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I've run diluted samples many times, this hanna 736 checker has probably run through close to 500 tests.

The sample from last night was so blue I diluted my test tonight 10:1. It read 131...

131x3.066/100= 4.016ppm po4 :thumbdown

I snagged a 2 liter jug of Phosguard a couple days ago for a few dollars from a guy breaking down a tank. I prefer GFO but I'll burn this stuff since it is more aggressive and was essentially free. Though, at current levels and absorption rates of .87mg/g it would take 20 liters of Phosguard to remove all the phosphate. I'm hoping not much has bound to the rock yet and that most of what I am testing resides in the water...

My RODI is going full tilt so I should have water ready to do a 400gal water change by Friday night. I'm not going to burn any media until that is done.

I may need to setup my Lanthinum Chloride Reactor to pull this much phosphate out of the water.

[ReefKeeper64]

I've run diluted samples many times, this hanna 736 checker has probably run through close to 500 tests.

The sample from last night was so blue I diluted my test tonight 10:1. It read 131...

131x3.066/100= 4.016ppm po4 :thumbdown

I snagged a 2 liter jug of Phosguard a couple days ago for a few dollars from a guy breaking down a tank. I prefer GFO but I'll burn this stuff since it is more aggressive and was essentially free. Though, at current levels and absorption rates of .87mg/g it would take 20 liters of Phosguard to remove all the phosphate. I'm hoping not much has bound to the rock yet and that most of what I am testing resides in the water...

My RODI is going full tilt so I should have water ready to do a 400gal water change by Friday night. I'm not going to burn any media until that is done.

I may need to setup my Lanthinum Chloride Reactor to pull this much phosphate out of the water.

I am not a big fan of water changes to remove nutrients. I’ve seen countless threads where a hobbiest would change lots of water, sometimes 60%, only to see PO4 only go down a bit, like 20% in the 60% example. You have a really big tank. Are you in a rush? Lots of flow for cheato, iron citrate, 10 micron socks, nitrate and carbon can sink your PO4 in an affordable manner. Just a thought...

[pisanoal]

I am not a big fan of water changes to remove nutrients. I’ve seen countless threads where a hobbiest would change lots of water, sometimes 60%, only to see PO4 only go down a bit, like 20% in the 60% example. You have a really big tank. Are you in a rush? Lots of flow for cheato, iron citrate, 10 micron socks, nitrate and carbon can sink your PO4 in an affordable manner. Just a thought...This is a different scenario. Those other threads are where people have had nutrients build up over time, and they have a chronic issue. Usually have a pretty large nutrient sink.

In this case, phosphate was essentially dosed, so a water change will be a lot more effective at reducing levels.

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[tkeracer619]

Oh yea, I am fully aware of the phosphate relationship in a reef tank. My hope is it hasn't bound to that concentration yet. I'm more interested in a large water change for overall water quality. The tank has had water in it for a long time without many water changes. The first fish additions are going to be a mated pair of crosshatches and my queen angel. I want the best water I can get for them and while not in a hurry they are starting to get ****ed off at their home. The crosshatches have been in a 50gal QT for over 6 months due to disease issues in the display. I have a real hard time balancing nutrients in their tank and getting them proper food.

I have a really snazzy LaCl reactor that will pull phosphate out easily if it comes to that. I'm not really sure how much of this phosphate is still associated with the CP though so I won't be focused on the phosphate until I do the change and run carbon/gfo for a few days. Once I see where I am then I will think more seriously about it. Right now I am more curious then anything how a water change handles the phosphate in this scenario given I was at .03ppm po4 30 days ago. That and water quality.

[ReefKeeper64]

Pisanoal, very good point. tkeracer619, I will watch and learn. Looking forward to more updates!

[tkeracer619]

Ok so here is what I have found so far after doing a 400 gallon water change. All tests were done twice to ensure accurate numbers.

The treated water measured 4,016ppm PO4.

5 hours after the water change the tank measured 1.027ppm PO4. A media reactor was placed in service after this test. It's a vertex UF20 and is 20x4" in size. I filled it to the top with fine particle lignite carbon from BRS and 250ml of phosguard.

24 hours after the water change I measured the tank at 1.180ppm PO4. I refreshed the media reactor with carbon, the Phosguard was saturated, and since the phosphates are rising even with a binding media I'm currently preparing my Lanthinum Chloride media reactor to use instead. I will bring it online sometime early this week. I'll save any phosphate binding media to polish the tank water once the reactor has run its course.


I have a hunch the calcium carbonate has bound a fair amount of phosphates from the medication. I've done enough testing of phosphates in our aquariums that I feel comfortable saying this could be a problematic level of phosphate to remove on larger systems with GFO alone. Certainly you could but it is going to cost a lot.

I also think it is safe to say that doing as large of a water change to remove phosphates and medication is important, especially on larger tanks. It appears a large amount of phosphate is easily removed via a water change.

The LaCl Reactor I will be using is one I designed to be used on this tank to deal with any bound phosphates in the sand, however, I never needed it. It has been successfully tested on a very large vat of live rock that was loaded with phosphates. The main components are a dual head Masterflex Pump, a 20BB filter housing, and a Pentek 5micron pleated 20bb sediment filter. One pump head has a large diameter peristaltic tube while the other has a very small diameter tube. The larger tube pulls water through the reactor, the small tube pushes a diluted Lanthinum Chloride mixture into the reaction chamber at a set mixing rate. Precipitation occurs and then the mixture flows into the 20BB housing where it is trapped. Output water is then returned to the tank through a 1 micron filter sock. This setup allows me to control the rate at which phosphate is removed from the system without any precipitate making it back into the system and proved very effective on the phosphate saturated rock. Due to the low flow rates, large surface area in the sediment filter, and high pressure capabilities of the masterflex this reactor is able to run for several months without any maintenance. You can see the amount of precipitates captured in the photo after months of runtime. The entire filter has large amounts of precipitate as well as about a half of an inch of sediment on the bottom of the housing. I'm going to make one modification this go around and add a mixing chamber prior to the filter housing in an effort to extend the life of the filter. The filter is washable and has been soaked in vinegar ready to be used again.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4677/25347505347_c488cd341c_c.jpg

I added 3 fish back to the display today. The water was clear and tested free of ammonia and nitrites. Nitrates were around 1ppm.

[LobsterOfJustice]

I have the space and some extra equipment, so I went ahead and set up a test tank.

Just a 10g tank with a heater and powerhead. Fluorescent strip light for observation. I put a bunch of spare LR from my sump into the tank which already has vermetids on it. I am going to try to let their population explode for a few weeks before trying any treatments. I figure I can feed them a daily dose of detritus - either siphon some from my frag tank or suck some up with a baster from the sump. I can feed some small particulate food if the detritus isn't cutting it or if I run out.

My thing that I'm personally interested in trying is ground up NLS Ich Shield pellets (containing CP) as I mentioned above... potentially also something like CP bound to a particulate food using Seachem Focus. I already have all of these things, so easy for me to try. There are also some other good options listed on page two that I could move onto. If/when I find something that kills the vermetids, I also have some frags from the frag tank to run a test and see if the corals can withstand whatever treatment as well.

[Vinny Kreyling]

Keep us informed please.

[tkeracer619]

If anyone is interested this is how I am dealing with the phosphates that were left behind by the Chloroquine Phosphate.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2667999

[becon776]

i wish there was an easier way for a full mixed reef.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Not much to update - I was hoping that a few weeks of daily detritus feedings would make the population in the test tank explode but that doesn't seem to be the case. I guess they were more happy in my main system with a constant supply. So I think I'm going to initiate the first test today. Crush up some NLS ich shield pellets containing CP into a powder and broadcast feed the test tank. I will run some carbon to absorb any CP that leaches into the water column.

I think in my tank, the challenge is that I have a constant food supply. I run mechanical filtration, but I have a lot of fish, a lot of flow, and two diamond gobies, so detritus is getting produced (and remains in suspension) just as fast as its getting filtered out. At any given time I can see plenty of suspended particles floating around the DT. I run 3-5x sump turnover, I would like to run more but once you get to high output DC pumps the cost jumps from a few hundred to a few thousand...

I have considered getting one of those small marineland internal diatom filters and running that inside the DT, maybe for a month or two, to try and polish their food from the water.

I'm also thinking about biological competition options. I don't have any of those small feather duster hitch-hikers in my system because I have two angels and a butterfly that eat them. So maybe adding some competition for food source (suspended detritus) could help as well. Either adding some fresh LR rubble to the sump to increase biodiversity, or a few other kinds of ornamental filter feeders - maybe NPS corals/gorgonians, or even something less common like a filter feeding cucumber or feather starfish. If I have a good enough food supply for a few thousand vermetids, there has to be something else less invasive that would also eat the same thing.

[LobsterOfJustice]

The ground-up NLS ich shield absolutely resulted in a feeding response from the vermetids, and I could see particles get trapped by the nets, reeled in, and consumed... stay tuned.

[psidriven]

do you have micro brittle starfish? the live rock in my last tank was filled with them and they would wave their arms out trying to catch suspended food. might be an option unless the butterfly likes them too.

[pisanoal]

The ground-up NLS ich shield absolutely resulted in a feeding response from the vermetids, and I could see particles get trapped by the nets, reeled in, and consumed... stay tuned.

Interesting... I'd still be scared using a non-reef safe medication with it, but could be used to help get the vermetids to ingest another type of medication they would normally be able to avoid by not ingesting too much of it.

[tkeracer619]

I'd be cautious about anything that had CP if you had corals in the system. The medication would have to be ok for the corals to consume as well. Its a tricky subject.

I tried feeding CP laced food for a bit a while back and the fish didn't eat it, they hated it actually. The lps coral didn't react very well.

[ReefKeeper64]

I tried feeding CP laced food for a bit a while back and the fish didn't eat it, they hated it actually. The lps coral didn't react very well.

What CP laced food are you referring to? I’ve found that NLS ick shield pellets are quickly eaten by all my fish. It seems that decaying or mushy medicated fish food has a bad taste that the fish recognize.

[tkeracer619]

Dr G's. Fresh batch.

http://www.drgsmarineaquaculture.com/frozen-antiparasitic.cfm

[ReefKeeper64]

Here is a video showing how tangs eat the nls pellets without hesitation. I’ve experienced the same. https://youtu.be/paJXi8IaCP0

[LobsterOfJustice]

Maybe the fish eat the pellets because there isn’t much CP in them...

After four days of 1x daily feeding of crushed ich shield pellets (vermetids visually confirmed to catch and consume pellet pieces) the vermetids are doing just fine. Along with all other typical LR microfauna (pods, Asterina and micro brittles, aiptasia, etc).


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[_DZ_reef]

Any progress ?

[LobsterOfJustice]

I tried lacing some food with ich shield powder but I wasn’t super careful about it and I think it got into the water so I’m not drawing any conclusions from that test. I needed the QT tanks for other things so the experiments are on pause. I did notice the population declining simply being in another tank, which to me is more evidence that my water is giving them constant food supply and even with daily detritus feeding their population somewhat declined.

I also have treated my DT twice with fenbendazole and the vermetids didn’t miss a beat.


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[five.five-six]

I had a few of them and someone told me to try KZ coral snow... yea, I know you can make it yourself for about $5/5 gallons now but I digress. I started dosing it daily and those lil suckers kept spitting up their webs and now I don’t see any webs anymore. May depend on the variety you have but it worked for me.

[LobsterOfJustice]

I had a few of them and someone told me to try KZ coral snow... yea, I know you can make it yourself for about $5/5 gallons now but I digress. I started dosing it daily and those lil suckers kept spitting up their webs and now I don’t see any webs anymore. May depend on the variety you have but it worked for me.



I tried the DIY option (powdered CaCO3) with no effect. Might be worth trying the brand name though.


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[five.five-six]

I dosed daily baised on total water volume, not tank volume.



It may depend upon the brand of vermeted snails you have though.

[ReefKeeper64]

Has anyone been successful using fenbendazole against vermited snails? It seems a few folks in others posts found it worked and a few experienced the opposite. I’m wondering if it’s an issue of effective dosing strength? Thoughts?

[becon776]

interesten in update. very close to complete system reboot

[tkeracer619]

Not necessarily completely important to this thread as CP concentration for vermatid snails seems to not matter so much, they're pretty easy to eradicate with cp.

Since I did this, the tank has been vermatid and flatworm (well all worm) free since a few days in. However, crypto got into the tank. Since I don't get any die off now when dosing cp as I haven't added anything to the tank I decided to use CP in the display to treat crypto. After an unsuccessful attempt i've purchased the lab equipment necessary to test for CP concentrations in saltwater.

My first test run gave me surprising results. Without any degradation my concentration should be around 44mg/gal concentration. It's closer to 25mg/gal concentration. No wonder crypto treatment was unsuccessful.

[ReefKeeper64]

Not necessarily completely important to this thread as CP concentration for vermatid snails seems to not matter so much, they're pretty easy to eradicate with cp.

Since I did this, the tank has been vermatid and flatworm (well all worm) free since a few days in. However, crypto got into the tank. Since I don't get any die off now when dosing cp as I haven't added anything to the tank I decided to use CP in the display to treat crypto. After an unsuccessful attempt i've purchased the lab equipment necessary to test for CP concentrations in saltwater.

My first test run gave me surprising results. Without any degradation my concentration should be around 44mg/gal concentration. It's closer to 25mg/gal concentration. No wonder crypto treatment was unsuccessful.

Out of curiosity, how much did your CP testing equipment run ya?

[tkeracer619]

Out of curiosity, how much did your CP testing equipment run ya?

After researching a bunch on measuring CP the requirement that they all came up with was a Spectrophotometer that measures absorbance at 343nm. The only reference I could find regarding measuring in aquariums mentioned very expensive equipment like a Hach DR5000 but I don't think that is necessary. I bought a Milton Roy Spectronic 21D and a set of Quartz Cuvettes. Very old equipment but this one was in mint condition.

I talked with Humblefish after reaching out to Reeffever without any response and he showed me some interesting information regarding this. Apparently if the chloroquine contains metabolite the metabolite will also register at 343 so a different process is required to separate the two components to get an accurate measurement of the active component. So it's better than nothing and probably accurate enough for us but I'm going to investigate further.

Beyond that, something very interesting appears to be happening. I can't actually dose enough CP to get the display to 40mg/gal safely. It appears bacteria is breaking down the CP rapidly. The more I dose, the quicker it breaks down. So fast that I am likely to abort dosing the display, last night I dosed the tank up to 27mg/gal and this morning 12 hours later it was down to 17mg/gal. The 40mg/gal sample from new SW I made on Thursday is still testing out at 40mg/gal.

So while CP probably works well on a freshly started QT and certainly nuked my vermatids and flat worms, it's a stretch that this med can be used in a display tank to treat fish. Obviously every system is different but at least in my case the CP is metabolized and removed at a rate faster than I want to dose CP.

[ReefKeeper64]

After researching a bunch on measuring CP the requirement that they all came up with was a Spectrophotometer that measures absorbance at 343nm. The only reference I could find regarding measuring in aquariums mentioned very expensive equipment like a Hach DR5000 but I don't think that is necessary. I bought a Milton Roy Spectronic 21D and a set of Quartz Cuvettes. Very old equipment but this one was in mint condition.

I talked with Humblefish after reaching out to Reeffever without any response and he showed me some interesting information regarding this. Apparently if the chloroquine contains metabolite the metabolite will also register at 343 so a different process is required to separate the two components to get an accurate measurement of the active component. So it's better than nothing and probably accurate enough for us but I'm going to investigate further.

Beyond that, something very interesting appears to be happening. I can't actually dose enough CP to get the display to 40mg/gal safely. It appears bacteria is breaking down the CP rapidly. The more I dose, the quicker it breaks down. So fast that I am likely to abort dosing the display, last night I dosed the tank up to 27mg/gal and this morning 12 hours later it was down to 17mg/gal. The 40mg/gal sample from new SW I made on Thursday is still testing out at 40mg/gal.

So while CP probably works well on a freshly started QT and certainly nuked my vermatids and flat worms, it's a stretch that this med can be used in a display tank to treat fish. Obviously every system is different but at least in my case the CP is metabolized and removed at a rate faster than I want to dose CP.

In a fish only tank with substrate you can tell you need more CP when algae starts to grow again. At that point you add another 1/2 dose of CP and the algae will quickly die back off. It only takes about 2-3 weeks for the CP to diminish naturally like that. I experienced this a couple of years ago by helping a friend who owns an LFS. He wasn't happy the the meds he had been using so we dosed CP in 3 of of his fish only storefront systems. As soon as he started that regimen, his fish loss rate diminished to almost nothing. We figured out more CP was needed by noticing the display went from pristine to where algae started growing again. The algae will tell you what you need to know. This dose method is probably more on the safe side but fish deaths post sale are also way down so we know it works. Customers know this store uses CP and they buy with confidence.

I started my a new build last year by treating with CP in my new tank build. I started it out out as a fish only system for the first 90 days. A powder blue tang and a dozen other fish were the first to go into the DT. At 90 days I stopped the treatment and within a month after that I started adding LPS and soft corals without issue. A year later and I haven't had a single disease problem.

The LFS owner also maintains tanks for customers and has dosed it successfully in a few systems now. With an established system, you start with a 1/4 dose to avoid too much die off at once and any resulting ammonia spike.

These are just some real life experiences. Nothing scientific but it works and is safe. Good luck with your setup. I'm sure you will get to where you want to be soon enough.

[tkeracer619]

In a fish only tank with substrate you can tell you need more CP when algae starts to grow again. At that point you add another 1/2 dose of CP and the algae will quickly die back off. It only takes about 2-3 weeks for the CP to diminish naturally like that. I experienced this a couple of years ago by helping a friend who owns an LFS. He wasn't happy the the meds he had been using so we dosed CP in 3 of of his fish only storefront systems. As soon as he started that regimen, his fish loss rate diminished to almost nothing. We figured out more CP was needed by noticing the display went from pristine to where algae started growing again. The algae will tell you what you need to know. This dose method is probably more on the safe side but fish deaths post sale are also way down so we know it works. Customers know this store uses CP and they buy with confidence.

I started my a new build last year by treating with CP in my new tank build. I started it out out as a fish only system for the first 90 days. A powder blue tang and a dozen other fish were the first to go into the DT. At 90 days I stopped the treatment and within a month after that I started adding LPS and soft corals without issue. A year later and I haven't had a single disease problem.

The LFS owner also maintains tanks for customers and has dosed it successfully in a few systems now. With an established system, you start with a 1/4 dose to avoid too much die off at once and any resulting ammonia spike.

These are just some real life experiences. Nothing scientific but it works and is safe. Good luck with your setup. I'm sure you will get to where you want to be soon enough.

Without knowing the minimum therapeutic dose and when algae returns it's hard to say what works and doesn't work other than things you've experienced. Obviously my test isn't definitive, there are so many variables at play. It is possible that the bacteria that consumes it forms after dosing it and if you went into a system that hadn't been dosed prior it would have been different. You should check out the thread I posted last night that puts CP concentrations against time. For me to keep the 40mg/gal concentration I would have to dose 260 grams of CP over a month just to keep it there if my consumption stayed consistent. The dose to bring the tank up to 40mg/gal is only 26 grams. That is a LOT of cp, not a half dose. Not really willing to test that.

[ReefKeeper64]

Without knowing the minimum therapeutic dose and when algae returns it's hard to say what works and doesn't work other than things you've experienced. Obviously my test isn't definitive, there are so many variables at play. It is possible that the bacteria that consumes it forms after dosing it and if you went into a system that hadn't been dosed prior it would have been different. You should check out the thread I posted last night that puts CP concentrations against time. For me to keep the 40mg/gal concentration I would have to dose 260 grams of CP over a month just to keep it there if my consumption stayed consistent. The dose to bring the tank up to 40mg/gal is only 26 grams. That is a LOT of cp, not a half dose. Not really willing to test that.

Oh trust me, I'm not providing advice to you or anyone. I'm sharing what I've experienced and that is all. I can't even say that any fish had a confirmed disease/parasite to begin with. The probability is high but it's not like anyone here is doing a funded tank trials experiment. Then again, perhaps your testing was at that level. I really don't know. The chat was interesting if nothing else.

I don't think you have to "keep" a given concentration at 40mg/gal. It's an initial concentration with a natural breakdown that is what people are using and finding effective over time.

I'll read your post for more details.

[Isayso]

nice thread..
what about the potassium permanganate?
did anybody tried?
my tank is completely full of these pests
im at the verge of nuking the whole tank

[BeachVacationer]

I just finished treatment of Reef Flux at double dose in 2 reef tanks with lots of VS. so far I don't see any mucus strings from any VS and I have lots of them in both tanks. Maybe their just mad from the treatment. On other hand if their dead that would be a great benefit. Has anyone with VS tried Reef Flux at double the dose for 2 weeks?

[Isayso]

What is in the Reef flux
I'm ready to try anything

[Isayso]

Is floconazole !???
I did a treatment for briopsy 6 months ago
Regular dose just the algea died

[McPuff]

These stupid things are really popping up everywhere now. Big ones and tiny ones. Argh! Starting to consider some type of treatment option. There has to be something that gets rid of them... and there must be a predator.

They are more annoying than anything. Don't really bother corals or the fish. But they don't look good, and they cut and poke me. No snails make me bleed my own blood! :0)

Joining this thread to see what has worked for others, short of nuking the tank. Not an option for me.

[Isayso]

I haven't found anything
That kill them I'm trying to search about potassium permanganate.. As somebody mentioned above.
I'm at the verge to nuke the whole tank. And literally boil the rocks in a large pot

[dubmaneh]

I haven't found anything

That kill them I'm trying to search about potassium permanganate.. As somebody mentioned above.

I'm at the verge to nuke the whole tank. And literally boil the rocks in a large pot



I’m trying the micro bubbling as a last resort before I tear down and restart. They are a royal PITA.


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[Isayso]

I’m trying the micro bubbling as a last resort before I tear down and restart. They are a royal PITA.
I'm still microbubbling. But I do t see difference

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[Vinny Kreyling]

Isayso,
DO NOT BOIL ROCK!!!!!!
Results could be death, especially if palys are present.

[Isayso]

Isayso,
DO NOT BOIL ROCK!!!!!!
Results could be death, especially if palys are present.
Yes I'm aware of that thanks. No paly in my tank and if I do will be outside

[JWClark]

Sitting rocks in sun for a week or so is more than enough. I took some rock out w/ hydroids and VS, sat on the porch for a few weeks, then into QT tank. Haven't seen one since. Hydroids came back on other rocks in the display so now I am completely restarting.

Don't mind so much about the restart since I can go bare bottom but losing 2 yrs of maturity sucks--for me and the mandarins.

Going to fill the tank with fresh water and run for a day or two to get any VS in the overflow/lines/walls.

Interestingly, I don't have one VS in the sump so I was able to move those sponge covered rocks into the QT tank with the mandarins. Still no sign of them on those rocks.

[McPuff]

Boiling is not a good option for a number of reasons. Instead, consider an acid bath for your rocks. That will literally eat those snails along with the outer layer of each rock. They will be completely gone without any issue.

I read about a laser option as well. High powered (1mW or more) laser will actually cause the snails to cook in their own shells. Has anyone tried this? I assume you have to go from the top and not through the glass... but maybe not?

[Isayso]

I do have the 1mW laser
Not working... you have to go
Higher than that

[McPuff]

I do have the 1mW laser
Not working... you have to go
Higher than that

Sorry, I meant 1000mW (1W). Those are generally about $50 or more.

[Isayso]

I have red a little bit about laser
When I had time and even the 1W
I don't think is enough
For 150 Us$ you can get a 3watts
But I have so many VS that will take days to kill them. And still I won't be able to reach the back of the rocks

[Isayso]

HI all I had to remove a 6"x5"capricornis that bleached and look whats behind:uzi::uzi::uzi::uzi::furious:

They Must be at least 3" tall

[img]https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1956/43557327140_9915c6fcc3_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/29n1FQY)]

[LobsterOfJustice]

I’ve got 200 blue leg hermits arriving this week. I’m hoping the hermits will irritate them by interfering their their nets and possibly steal food from them when it gets caught in the net before they are able to reel it in. Also considering a bunch of cleaner shrimp, as I have seen these reach into the mouth of LPS to steal food I’m thinking they may do the same with vermetids.

Urchins may be another good option, even if they don’t eat them directly or on purpose they might damage or irritate the vermetids during their general bulldozing.


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[Isayso]

I don't know about that... my Blue legs dont do nothing
To them.
Maybe because the snails are too big..

[McPuff]

Hmm, the cleaner shrimp may be a good idea. Come to think of it, I've noticed an increase in vermetids since my coral banded shrimp died a few months ago. Could simply be a coincidence though...

[Isayso]

That's another option
I've never tried or had a Coral
Banded shrimp

[becon776]

i give up

[becon776]

my tank is 18 years old

[Isayso]

my tank is 18 years old

doesn't mean that is the end of life...:rollface:

my registration with reef central was back in 2003 and since 1999on the local forum
the tank is old too but the problems with the snail is last couple of years..

Im on the hunt for a coral banded shrimp LOL:bounce2:
that is the only thing I havent tried yet

[LobsterOfJustice]

I don't know about that... my Blue legs dont do nothing
To them.
Maybe because the snails are too big..


At this point I’m not even looking for something that eats them, I’m just trying to make their lives more difficult and **** them off...


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[LobsterOfJustice]

Or maybe an arrow crab? They’ve got long thin claws that might be able to get into the tubes.


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[Isayso]

Arrow crab didn't work for me either, right now I'm on the hunt for a Coral banded shrimp,
This the only thing that I haven't used, I don't mind give it a go

[dubmaneh]

Arrow crab didn't work for me either, right now I'm on the hunt for a Coral banded shrimp,
This the only thing that I haven't used, I don't mind give it a go



I’ve had a coral banded shrimp in my tank for couple of years now. Vermetids are out of control.


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[Isayso]

I’ve had a coral banded shrimp in my tank for couple of years now. Vermetids are out of control.


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So that means that didn't work??? Darrrnnnn:deadhorse:

[becon776]

doesn't mean that is the end of life...:rollface:

my registration with reef central was back in 2003 and since 1999on the local forum
the tank is old too but the problems with the snail is last couple of years..

Im on the hunt for a coral banded shrimp LOL:bounce2:
that is the only thing I havent tried yet

- not out... I'm over it... Getting super excited for a "new" marco dry rock, getting new lights... maybe new sump.

so much trial and error over the last two decades. big ideas have come and gone. I've held on to so many old school philosphy's as a point of pride (mh's for example). Just a lot of knowledge over the years.

I am excited to start fresh and implement all that I know and have learned. and also to learn new stuff and get up with the millenials. for example let's automate as much as humanly possible.

[Isayso]

Yeah sometimes
I'm thinking to hit the reset button
Too. And start fresh
Good luck to you my friend

[becon776]

maybe start a thread covering the reset

[Isayso]

Sounds good ,
But from another hand I want these pests out of my tank

[becon776]

oh yeah.. pest will go out. rock will go out in rubbermaid till i get around to acid wash. entire tank will be filled with fw with a gallon of bleach dumped in it for 3 days. EVERYTHING WILL BE BLEACHED AND OR VINEGARED of boilled. i mean everything. NOTHING WILL EVER ENTER MY TANK WITHOUT BEING SUBJECTED TO 3X'S QUALITY INSURANCE. any little sign of issue will equal a nuclear response from this point forward.

[Isayso]

Oh man I'm jealous, but right now I don't have much time for the tank , my wife has been battling cancer , she is clean so far and I want spend time with her and the kids

[becon776]

that is a tough trail mu friend. heart goes out to you.
i always say that when you hear me *****ing and stressing about my tank then that means my life is pretty good... bc it means all else is ok.
Do what you can and remember the tank is about as close as detail oriented stubborn guys (and gals) can get to meditation. keep it in mind when staring at these little pita's

[Isayso]

Thank you very much
Yeah still I don't want abandon the tankers I give little time right now

[ReefKeeper64]

Over the last couple of months I added a coral banded shrimp and 3 emerald crabs. I can't say that I've ever seen them actually ripping apart a vermetid snail but they are always picking at the rock. it seems like the vermetid population almost all gone now.

[Isayso]

Over the last couple of months I added a coral banded shrimp and 3 emerald crabs. I can't say that I've ever seen them actually ripping apart a vermetid snail but they are always picking at the rock. it seems like the vermetid population almost all gone now.
Whaat??
You mean gone ?? Bye bye?
If yes that is amazing

[jmicky41]

Interesting read.

My tank and LR is 15+ years old. And after a couple years of neglect, the algae (turf?) and v-snails are outta control. Today, I had some time and decided to pull the rocks for some manual control - complete failure, each rock had hundreds, if not thousands, of v-snails. The task seemed hopeless and I gave up. Nearly every square inch of rock had a dozen of these things.

I don't have a reef, merely a FOWLR tank. So, it seems a CP treatment is the way to go? Besides pods, limpets and assorted worms; there are no invertebrates in the tank. I was considering nuking everything with bleach. But, I hate to loose all the diversity in the tank. This is old Tonga branch and Tonga shelf - stuff you can't get anymore. If CP will get the algae and the V-snails, why not? I have a wet-dry, so ammonia might not be a big issue. The house is going up for sale in the coming months, so it is either sparkling clean tank or no tank at all. My fish are 10-18 years old, so I hate to tear down and re-home them.

Another thing I thought of: what are all these snails eating? How much particulate matter can 3 fish generate? Like I said, I have thousands of these things. I wonder if these things can't feed on dissolved organic matter. I very seldom see any snot nets.

[Rtdrumz]

I am really frustrated with the vermetid snail invasion. If I get these things under control I'll never put in another plug or rock. I pulled half of my rock out and replaced it with dry rock. (I was afraid of what would happen if I just pulled out all of the rock.) I plan to take out the other half (covered in vermetid snails) and replace that with more dry rock. (maybe add some rock to the sump for more bacteria) I know that there will be vermetids in the tank, but I'll be able to have a fighting chance. I'm changing the food to pellets and dosing potassium permanganate and calcium carbonate. My hope is to cut the food supply enough to eradicate .... If it does not work ---- I'll move everything to a temporary tank, run tap water and acid for a week, and start from scratch.

[Isayso]

Hi guys , yes its a pain in the neck the local fish store do not have Coral banded shrimp
One of them put it on the order list, if this will take too long I want to use potassium permanganate... I have to find a supplier for that

[McPuff]

It doesn't really matter what you feed FYI. The fish poop and that will break apart in the water and feed the vermetids. I'm sure it will help, however, to feed foods that are NOT broadcast.

I recently have fed medicated foods (metro, kanaplex) and noticed that the webs were not nearly as numerous. Not sure if the medication irritates them or not. Anecdotal.

Planning to get a couple coral banded shrimp. Will report back. Already have an emerald crab but I rarely see it. May have to get another one. The tank is a 300 so a single emerald won't do too much. But they are quite aggressive to one another when food is limiting.

[Isayso]

It doesn't really matter what you feed FYI. The fish poop and that will break apart in the water and feed the vermetids. I'm sure it will help, however, to feed foods that are NOT broadcast.

I recently have fed medicated foods (metro, kanaplex) and noticed that the webs were not nearly as numerous. Not sure if the medication irritates them or not. Anecdotal.

Planning to get a couple coral banded shrimp. Will report back. Already have an emerald crab but I rarely see it. May have to get another one. The tank is a 300 so a single emerald won't do too much. But they are quite aggressive to one another when food is limiting.
Good luck my friend, please keep us posted

[Rtdrumz]

I have Coral Banded shrimp that allowed the vermetid explosion

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[Isayso]

I have Coral Banded shrimp that allowed the vermetid explosion

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You mean that it didn't do any good?

[Rtdrumz]

Correct. I had the shrimp before the vermetids.

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[Isayso]

Daarnn... have you tried to starve the shrimp??

[Rtdrumz]

Daarnn... have you tried to starve the shrimp??

I'm not someone that overfeeds. I usually take my time hand feeding each of the fish. When they stop coming to me for food, I stop feeding. (in other words I feed the fish, not the tank)

[ReefKeeper64]

Whaat??
You mean gone ?? Bye bye?
If yes that is amazing

Yes, it really is to say the least. Another thing that may have helped is I increased the flow quite a bit a few months ago. The webs those vermetid snails put out don't hold up to the stronger flow now. I think they got hungry and somewhat were starved.

Also, last night I watched an emerald crab as it was picking at the rock. There were a couple of vermetid snail tubes within its path and sure enough, the crab eventually grabbed a snail tube and broke it of the rock. I can't say it was hunting for vermetids in particular but it is an opportunist and took out the snail tube.

[ReefKeeper64]

Interesting read.

My tank and LR is 15+ years old. And after a couple years of neglect, the algae (turf?) and v-snails are outta control. Today, I had some time and decided to pull the rocks for some manual control - complete failure, each rock had hundreds, if not thousands, of v-snails. The task seemed hopeless and I gave up. Nearly every square inch of rock had a dozen of these things.

I don't have a reef, merely a FOWLR tank. So, it seems a CP treatment is the way to go? Besides pods, limpets and assorted worms; there are no invertebrates in the tank. I was considering nuking everything with bleach. But, I hate to loose all the diversity in the tank. This is old Tonga branch and Tonga shelf - stuff you can't get anymore. If CP will get the algae and the V-snails, why not? I have a wet-dry, so ammonia might not be a big issue. The house is going up for sale in the coming months, so it is either sparkling clean tank or no tank at all. My fish are 10-18 years old, so I hate to tear down and re-home them.

Another thing I thought of: what are all these snails eating? How much particulate matter can 3 fish generate? Like I said, I have thousands of these things. I wonder if these things can't feed on dissolved organic matter. I very seldom see any snot nets.

Those snails are small but worms are usually sizable and could cause a nutrient spike in your system. CP will work but take it slowly. You don't want them to all die off at once. Start with a 10% dose in week 1. Wait another week and add 10% more in week 2 and so on. Pretty soon you will see the vermetids and worms start to die off. Same goes with the algae but not copepods surprisingly. The copepods will be fine.

[ReefKeeper64]

I have Coral Banded shrimp that allowed the vermetid explosion

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I believe you. If coral banded shrimp or crabs were a 100% answer, this thread wouldn't exist. I have read other posts where coral banded shrimp worked so its not a black or white answer either way. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

I had my first vermited explosion back in 2012 in another tank. At the time I had high nutrients and low flow and the webs were everywhere. The rocks looked spiky as all get out.

[Rtdrumz]

Those snails are small but worms are usually sizable and could cause a nutrient spike in your system. CP will work but take it slowly. You don't want them to all die off at once. Start with a 10% dose in week 1. Wait another week and add 10% more in week 2 and so on. Pretty soon you will see the vermetids and worms start to die off. Same goes with the algae but not copepods surprisingly. The copepods will be fine.

Has this been tested to be safe for mixed reef? Where do I buy CP?

[Isayso]

Well as soon there is Avibility
I will get the emerald and the banded
For sure

[pisanoal]

No it is not a reef safe treatment. Do not use CP in a tank with inverts you want to keep alive, coral included.

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[ReefKeeper64]

No, CP isn't reef safe. This is an advanced option for QT and fish only tanks. Fish only meaning no inverts and no corals.

As an advanced topic and knowing that few actually have experience using it you will want to first research the forums and read through exactly what to do and what not to do. If you are still in your first couple of years maintaining a marine tank, this may not even be a good choice for you. However, with proper knowledge, its one of the best options out there.

[becon776]

now for the ?, if doing a reboot, new rock but all hardward will be used again. i am thinking of gettung a reefer 450. so i would have another tank. the question is my poor fish been with us for years. is there any part of the vermetid life cycle that can be dragged along with the fish or shrimp? thru feces, slime coat etc.... snails, clams, conch are obvious.

[Isayso]

now for the ?, if doing a reboot, new rock but all hardward will be used again. i am thinking of gettung a reefer 450. so i would have another tank. the question is my poor fish been with us for years. is there any part of the vermetid life cycle that can be dragged along with the fish or shrimp? thru feces, slime coat etc.... snails, clams, conch are obvious.
What I would do is...
Have a bucket with freshwater
same PH and temp of the tank then a bucket with methylene Blue and a bucket with regular salt water . This is the procedure that I do when buy fish ...after this process they go in the QT.
Going in the display tank they have just a blue bath

[becon776]

this is how you do it once and for allhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181108/465bef49ff8f90bbdab996b86b7f80d3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181108/0e49fd0c2593da785ea83b7be18a9879.jpg

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[LobsterOfJustice]

Yeah until you put your first frag in...


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[becon776]

well id like to think that ive learned my lesson.... hopefully. it sucks bc i have a couple really unique pieces in the old tank. but am toooooo scared.

plus thats the curing tank which will eventually be quarantine tank. EVERYTHING GET QUARANTINED

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[FDAWG]

I’ve got 200 blue leg hermits arriving this week. I’m hoping the hermits will irritate them by interfering their their nets and possibly steal food from them when it gets caught in the net before they are able to reel it in. Also considering a bunch of cleaner shrimp, as I have seen these reach into the mouth of LPS to steal food I’m thinking they may do the same with vermetids.

Urchins may be another good option, even if they don’t eat them directly or on purpose they might damage or irritate the vermetids during their general bulldozing.


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Where do you get 200 Blue Legs at?

[LobsterOfJustice]

Where do you get 200 Blue Legs at?



KP Aquatics


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[West1]

Did not read this whole thread but has anyone used KZ Coral snow or a DIY KZ Coral snow?

[LobsterOfJustice]

Did not read this whole thread but has anyone used KZ Coral snow or a DIY KZ Coral snow?



I dosed CaCo3 powder daily for a month or two with no effect.


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[West1]

I dosed CaCo3 powder daily for a month or two with no effect.


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How many times per week did you dose? Did you notice a reduction of webs?

I am going to try a DIY KZ snow, I need to try something

[LobsterOfJustice]

How many times per week did you dose? Did you notice a reduction of webs?



I am going to try a DIY KZ snow, I need to try something



Daily, no effect


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[West1]

Daily, no effect


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we need a cure to this plague :facepalm:

[pisanoal]

I dont think coral snow itself will kill them. What i am hoping is it will reduce or stop their spread. It is bound to reduce their food source.

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[McPuff]

Ok, here is something... or maybe nothing...

I recently introduced 3 fish into my DT. Prior to that I was feeding them a variety of foods soaked in metronidazole or kanaplex... this was about a 12 day process. Because I didn't want to prepare more than one batch of food, I would medicate everyone's food. The DT got medication as well... couldn't hurt to treat for internal parasites even though they are all clean.

Anyway, since I have completed this set of treatments I noticed far fewer webs, especially on the smaller forms. The larger ones are still there but the webs also seem to be reduced. Not sure if this is real or imagined but it seems tangible to me.

I'm planning to gauge out some of the larger ones with a chisel as well... let the fish eat their ground up bodies. That is always fun. Anyway, we'll see if this continues to progress in the positive direction.

[pisanoal]

Ok, here is something... or maybe nothing...

I recently introduced 3 fish into my DT. Prior to that I was feeding them a variety of foods soaked in metronidazole or kanaplex... this was about a 12 day process. Because I didn't want to prepare more than one batch of food, I would medicate everyone's food. The DT got medication as well... couldn't hurt to treat for internal parasites even though they are all clean.

Anyway, since I have completed this set of treatments I noticed far fewer webs, especially on the smaller forms. The larger ones are still there but the webs also seem to be reduced. Not sure if this is real or imagined but it seems tangible to me.

I'm planning to gauge out some of the larger ones with a chisel as well... let the fish eat their ground up bodies. That is always fun. Anyway, we'll see if this continues to progress in the positive direction.I fed focus/metro for a couple of months with no change. I dont really see that many webs normally though, although I have plenty of live v snails. Never tried kanaplex in the dt food though. I did use API General cure for a couple weeks too.

For what its worth, they dont seem to be proliferating in my new system yet.

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[ABzReef]

Anyone got any pictures,?

[becon776]

i am currently in planning phase of a "reboot" so scqred of any cross contamintation.
my plan is to empty my tank, move the fish/shrimp to a tank i have my dry rock cycling in, i am assuming these buggers cant be carried in on. get all my rock out. sand out. snails, conches, crabs OUT. refill tank with hot tap water possibLY some bleach or vinegar over fill sump let equipment run overnight.

get all equipment out clean with 50/50 vinegar and water.

move in new tank, hooked up fill with hot tap let run. drain. set up tank.

i have one torch that is my love. its a local specialty and lfs sells the torch for 260$ per head. i wish so bad there was a way to treat the torch for veremtids that wouldnt kill the corals. of course there is detailed manual removal. anything else?? i would love to be able to keep this coral.

one last note over the last year i have kinda given up on tank and jist let nature take its course. i now have a DISCOSOMA FOREST hydroids also popped up. HOWEVER, the vermetids are problably 10% of their previous plague proportions. i think they were just smothered right out.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181122/8e14871f3a316c787e5a3298c5b3ec3b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181122/44430caa63b1bc07d4c269d3b55b040a.jpg

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[LobsterOfJustice]

Careful with hot tap water, I’ve cracked a tank filling it with hot tap water, luckily it was just a 10g QT.


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[becon776]

good to know... ill err on the side of warm

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[becon776]

ok new tank up and running. bought clean up crew and spent 30 minutes scraping off anything that resembled a non shell in a ptsd manner. fish and shrimp are in.

ok so now ive got a temp tank full of old live rock that is riddled with vermetids and discosoma mushrooms. time for some science. any suggestions?

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[Isayso]

We need a cure for this

[Vinny Kreyling]

Short of new rock ?????????

[Rtdrumz]

Chloroquine Phosphate has worked for some, but I can't find it from a reputable source.
I have tried starving them. I used a 35 gallon quarentine tank with infested rock. I didn't feed the tank. I did 20% water changes twice a week for 2 months. I did 50% water changes twice a week for a month. All while dosing 10 ml potassium permanganate.. the snails are still there.
I have pulled out rock and and replaced it with new only to see the snails start to repopulate on the new rock.
Nuking the tank is the only option I can see at this point.
I have learned a very valuable lesson here. Dipping and Quarantining EVERYTHING and removing new corals from the object that they were purchased on. I was basically lucky for a long time without going through these steps.
I used to think people were going overboard with the procedures and time they spent within those procedures.... I have changed my entire mindset with this hobby. Go slow and do everything you possibly can to protect that beautiful display tank, or you will end up with a lot of headache and heartache.
And lots of wasted $$$$.¢¢ (notice the four dollar signs)

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[Isayso]

So you are saying that chloroquine worked????
Please , explain the dosage
Thanks

[becon776]

winder if hypo/hyper salinity would do anything. tryung to apply ockhams razor here now

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[drtrash]

Mushroom plague

[Isayso]

winder if hypo/hyper salinity would do anything. tryung to apply ockhams razor here now

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Risk is high unless remove fish a corals, and some of the inverts

Mushrooms didn't work for me

[becon776]

mushrooms def dint work. if you see the pic above youll understand. i had every inch of tank covered

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[Isayso]

I have mostly corals on the rocks
And lots of VS.

[pisanoal]

So you are saying that chloroquine worked????
Please , explain the dosage
ThanksChloroquine does work. But it is a nuclear option. Its basically a tank reboot. You can leave fish in but all inverts you want alive have to come out. If any of your coral bases have vermetids, then be careful to quarantine renove and inspect diligently for several months before reintroduction.

Dosage is therapeutic dose for ich treatment, although lower dosages im sure will do just fine for the vermetids.

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[Isayso]

Thanks for the reply

[King Reefin]

I want to add an observation. This may help someone not sure how. But although my tank has what seems like thousands of these pests my sump which is has no light has none not one. Not sure why this is.

[Isayso]

I want to add an observation. This may help someone not sure how. But although my tank has what seems like thousands of these pests my sump which is has no light has none not one. Not sure why this is.
Yes same here realized that ages ago , but to put it to work in a tank, it wont work unless kill everything.. But thanks for the suggestion

[pisanoal]

I want to add an observation. This may help someone not sure how. But although my tank has what seems like thousands of these pests my sump which is has no light has none not one. Not sure why this is.I've got them in my sump with no lights. It tool them a while to make it down there. I think one reason you may not see them is lower flow in the sump. I only have them in areas of higher flow (speaking sump only here).

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[King Reefin]

I've got them in my sump with no lights. It tool them a while to make it down there. I think one reason you may not see them is lower flow in the sump. I only have them in areas of higher flow (speaking sump only here).

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Have not seen them in a high flow area. That seems strange to me that you have them in a high flow area.

[King Reefin]

Maybe that's because my urchins take out the ones they can reach?

[jda]

I got 100 blue legs and a few urchins and my numbers are down. They are not a cure, but they seem to really help. It is neat to see a blue leg on top of a tube trying to extract the verm.

I only have the small kind, so no idea what would happen with the larger ones.

[LobsterOfJustice]

I want to add an observation. This may help someone not sure how. But although my tank has what seems like thousands of these pests my sump which is has no light has none not one. Not sure why this is.



I think this is also because you add food to the display tank (so they have more food in the tank vs sump) and they are closer to the source of the detritus in the tank as well (fish poo, etc).


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[King Reefin]

I think this is also because you add food to the display tank (so they have more food in the tank vs sump) and they are closer to the source of the detritus in the tank as well (fish poo, etc).
This would make more sense if I had a filter before my sump.

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[King Reefin]

I think this is also because you add food to the display tank (so they have more food in the tank vs sump) and they are closer to the source of the detritus in the tank as well (fish poo, etc).

This would make more sense if I had a filter before my sump. ent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This would make more sense if I had a filter before my sump.

[Isayso]

I haven't found anything to kill these bastards,
Or at least we don't know about it

[King Reefin]

Do we know the life cycle?

[pisanoal]

Have not seen them in a high flow area. That seems strange to me that you have them in a high flow area.I'm talking high flow for sump, would be considered very low flow for the display.

My theory is if the flow is slow enough, it wont carry food particles to the snails.

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[King Reefin]

I'm talking high flow for sump, would be considered very low flow for the display.

My theory is if the flow is slow enough, it wont carry food particles to the snails.

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I just may add a pump to my sump just to test this out. I would love to get rid of these things without tearing down the tank.

[LobsterOfJustice]

This would make more sense if I had a filter before my sump.



The vermetids in the display tank are the filter...


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[pisanoal]

I just may add a pump to my sump just to test this out. I would love to get rid of these things without tearing down the tank.Not sure what the application would look like for low flow for removal.

I'm thinking about re-investigating fenbendazole so stay tuned.

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[King Reefin]

I am not sure the nets are what we think they are. How long would it take after an increase in flow before I should see them show up? Or maybe I should move a rock with them on to the sump to see if they survive there?

[Isayso]

I had them grow on the intake pile whereas the water falls down to the sump , how in the hell can attach to that??

[pisanoal]

Do we know the life cycle?I don't know how true it is, but I read an article that said the eggs hatch in the shell of an adult snail and crawl out from there to find a new place to attach.

Not sure if I believe that or not because that would suggest they would spread outward, and ive seen them pop up clear across the tank without showing up in the middle (6 foot tank).

I dont recall reading anything about how they reproduce or how often/ how long it takes.

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[pisanoal]

I am not sure the nets are what we think they are. How long would it take after an increase in flow before I should see them show up? Or maybe I should move a rock with them on to the sump to see if they survive there?Not sure what you mean by the nets may not be what we think they are.

And its hard to say. But what are you going to do if they do show up? You can't cut down on flow in your tank enough without it having catastrophic consequences for your corals.

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[King Reefin]

But what are you going to do if they do show up? You can't cut down on flow in your tank enough without it having catastrophic consequences for your corals.

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Good point. And I don't think that would work anyway.

[Isayso]

Fenbendazole what is it ?
Hope it works

[pisanoal]

Fenbendazole what is it ?
Hope it worksGoogle fenbendazole use against hydroids. There is a big thread on it on the other forum where a couple users say they had success against vermetids with it all though that was not their goal. If you back to page 1 or 2 I tried it early on but may not have let it work at high enough concentrations for long enough. I have a few other application ideas I'll get into when I try it.

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[LobsterOfJustice]

Fenbendazole what is it ?
Hope it works



Nope. I’ve used fenbendazole about 5 times now trying to get rid of hydroids, vermetids didn’t miss a beat.


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[pisanoal]

Nope. I’ve used fenbendazole about 5 times now trying to get rid of hydroids, vermetids didn’t miss a beat.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI saw that you did in the other forum. I'd love to pick your brain about your application of it. I tried to get some info on the other forum with no response.

What was your source of fenbendazole?

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[LobsterOfJustice]

I bought this:

Thomas Labs Fish Bendazole 250mg... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009TAQ538?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share


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[pisanoal]

I bought this:

Thomas Labs Fish Bendazole 250mg... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009TAQ538?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThats what I thought. What was your max dose? Did your other snails die or where they affected at all? If you look at the earlier conversation in that thread, it looks like the OP made a mistake on dosing and actually dosed at 7.1 mg/gal. He did state that it knocked out all his vermetids.

A trend I noticed was that people towards the end were seeing both snails unaffected and issues with hydroids not dying completely.

The OP originally used safeguard 4. And separated out the granules. So I'm wondering if its something specific to that.

I'm honestly thinking of trying to not separate the granules and dose the complete mixture at the approproate quantities on a trial scale. Wondering if there is something in the powder that kills them.

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[Isayso]

Set up a 5-10 gallons tank with some VS. And test it

[Isayso]

Sorry double post

[pisanoal]

Set up a 5-10 gallons tank with some VS. And test itThat's the plan

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[dkeller_nc]

This may well be "correlation without causation", but I thought I'd note this just in case someone else has a similar experience. I used to have these irritating buggers in my 50g reef. I think I've the type that don't reproduce all that fast because they don't seem to reach plague proportions, but I could nevertheless count 10 to 15 at any one time in my rock.

That changed when I brought home a pair of leopard wrasses about 2 years ago (in this case, ornate leopard wrasses - macropharyngodon ornatus). I never gave it much thought until I read through this thread last night, but the vermetid population in the tank crashed shortly after adding the wrasses. There are still a few in the sump and overflow, but zero in the tank itself.

[LobsterOfJustice]

My max dose was 2.8mg/gal. Right now I just finished dose 2 of a planned 3 doses 2 weeks apart at 2.6 mg/gal. This last time, I stirred up a bunch of detritus in the sump when I dosed, hoping maybe the vermetids would throw out their webs and accidentally catch some of the fenbendazole particulates as well.

I can’t really say on the snails, as I don’t keep any. That’s another one of my issues, I have some kind of opportunistically predatory whelk that reproduces and will kill any other snails I try to put in the system... I can say that this dose is enough to adversely affect starfish... they will either completely shut down and go dormant, or fall apart.


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[Isayso]

Any positive feedback?

[McPuff]

Any positive feedback?

I tried the bumblebee snails... and they have been noticeably effective! There are several areas where I've noticed a massive difference pre- and post-snail addition. Even the small shells are gone. Only added a dozen so I think I'll get about 30 more of them and just give them some time. It seems they only go for the small ones but it's possible I just haven't noticed the larger ones being consumed. Regardless, the large vermetids are easy enough to manually remove.

So like I wrote earlier, had a friend with the same experience. I am confirming the same behavior from the bumblebee snails. They do work! Biological control, no need for chemicals, remove them if they become a problem for any other organisms (easy enough). Worth giving them a try and sharing your experience. Note: I added them about two months ago or more. So you have to be patient!

[skiwez]

One thing that I've notice with my tank is that the vermatid snail population has stalled when I took my auto feeder offline. I have pellets in there and fed 2 times a day plus frozen food. Now that I'm no longer feeding pellets no new vermatids. Will only be putting it back online for extended absences.

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[Isayso]

Please keep us updated

[gmneil]

for what its worth, I had a tank 125gallon that was covered in them and they all disappeared within a month or two after I added a copperband butterfly to clean up a couple aptasia I had.

[ThRoewer]

I tried the bumblebee snails... and they have been noticeably effective! There are several areas where I've noticed a massive difference pre- and post-snail addition. Even the small shells are gone. Only added a dozen so I think I'll get about 30 more of them and just give them some time. It seems they only go for the small ones but it's possible I just haven't noticed the larger ones being consumed. Regardless, the large vermetids are easy enough to manually remove.

So like I wrote earlier, had a friend with the same experience. I am confirming the same behavior from the bumblebee snails. They do work! Biological control, no need for chemicals, remove them if they become a problem for any other organisms (easy enough). Worth giving them a try and sharing your experience. Note: I added them about two months ago or more. So you have to be patient!
Do the bumblebee snails go only after the vermetid snails or also after tubeworms and other snails? I would really hate if they kill all the tubeworms I have in my rocks and especially if they would go after my Christmas-tree worms. And I would also not appreciate if they decimate my Trochus and Stromatella snails.

There are actually a few snails that are specialized in going after the large vermetid snails: Muricid snails consume the vermetid gastropod, Dendropoma maximum, and use empty shells for reproduction (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00338-014-1141-6)
Though I doubt these are at this point readily found in the trade.

[McPuff]

I have not seen the bumblebee snails go after any other types of snails. They are MUCH smaller in my tank so I don't know if that matters or not. I assume they will go after some other fan worms, etc. Maybe not. I'll have to check those as I know I've got some patches of those tiny fan worms, etc.

The bumblebee snails are super slow. I rarely see them move at all. Guessing the larger snails would easily escape them or at least not get killed by them.