PDA

View Full Version : Mod stand to accept sump


fishkeeprian
08/25/2017, 04:56 AM
Hi, I am looking to do a mod to my stand to accept a sump, let me give you a bit of back ground on the tank.

The setup was originally an EA Marine 900 the in tank sump version (not the version shown). I stripped out the sump in the back ready to drill but the tank stand was not designed to accept a sump in the cabinet. There is a full-width support running down the centre of the cabinet (18mm MDF) to support the centre which I want to remove so I can put in a full-length sump in exactly like the EA MARINE 900S as shown in the picture but will need to add the front support across the length on the tank as shown.

I didn't want to screw the support in from the outside as the cabinet is nice high gloss cabinet so I didn't want the screw heads showing, my second option was to fix it using glue and dowels, I am really looking for suggestions if you can help.

Thanks378575

SFish
08/25/2017, 05:11 AM
Can it just be screwed or stapled from the inside? Just have the screws short enough so that they don't go all the way through.

fishkeeprian
08/25/2017, 06:05 AM
Can it just be screwed or stapled from the inside? Just have the screws short enough so that they don't go all the way through.


It could be, the sides are 18mm MDF boards but don't think I will get enough screw into the sides to support the brace which I assume will render it useless? But that said I don't know how much of the screws I would need to penetrate to make it a sound structural part of the stand.

Clowning_Around
08/25/2017, 07:48 AM
Beimg that its MDF face screwing is unfortunately not very strong and if you try to put to many not far enough appart it will causw the MDF to break appart. I would acrew through thre material and use decorative caps, maybe even apply a few extras in other areas of the stand to balance the look out.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

fishkeeprian
08/25/2017, 08:13 AM
Beimg that its MDF face screwing is unfortunately not very strong and if you try to put to many not far enough appart it will causw the MDF to break appart. I would acrew through thre material and use decorative caps, maybe even apply a few extras in other areas of the stand to balance the look out.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

I've looked at An EA 900S in a shop to establish how it's fixed but there is no sign of any screw fixings this is what leaned be towards the dowelling and glueing method.

Clowning_Around
08/25/2017, 12:39 PM
Got any pics of your existing stand, I'm not entirely familar with it specifically but can talk generically about it. With a visual there maybe stone other options to through it there....

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

SFish
08/26/2017, 01:39 AM
I know the ones at petco are stapled together.

Clowning_Around
08/26/2017, 11:22 AM
Stapled for something such as a load bearing stand is scary lol

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Lsufan
08/26/2017, 09:12 PM
If u post a pic u will be able to get a definite answer. Without knowing the design it's really just guessing. I don't see how screwing through the face of the brace is a option. If u are screwing it through the face then the screws would be supporting the wieght & the brace would be useless. I could be misunderstanding how the stand is built though. Like clowning around said, a picture of your specific stand will take the guessing out.

If it is similar to the picture in your first post u would want the brace to fit inbetween the top & bottom frame. So the top fram would sit on top of your brace & the brace would sit on top of the bottom frame. Then all u have to do is glue it & screw it from the side of the brace at a diagonal into the frame. A kreg pocket jig would work perfect. They sell really cheap ones that work good on small things like that. If u don't want to use one predrill the holes before u screw it so u don't split the wood. Without using a pocket hole jig it would be difficult to sink the head of the screws without splitting the mdf, but u wouldn't see them unless the doors are open.

All the screws should be doing is holding the brace in place. Really only until the glue dries then the glue will hold it. There shouldn't be any wieght on the screws or the glue or it more then likely isn't braced correctly

fishkeeprian
08/27/2017, 03:13 AM
If u post a pic u will be able to get a definite answer. Without knowing the design it's really just guessing. I don't see how screwing through the face of the brace is a option. If u are screwing it through the face then the screws would be supporting the wieght & the brace would be useless. I could be misunderstanding how the stand is built though. Like clowning around said, a picture of your specific stand will take the guessing out.

If it is similar to the picture in your first post u would want the brace to fit inbetween the top & bottom frame. So the top fram would sit on top of your brace & the brace would sit on top of the bottom frame. Then all u have to do is glue it & screw it from the side of the brace at a diagonal into the frame. A kreg pocket jig would work perfect. They sell really cheap ones that work good on small things like that. If u don't want to use one predrill the holes before u screw it so u don't split the wood. Without using a pocket hole jig it would be difficult to sink the head of the screws without splitting the mdf, but u wouldn't see them unless the doors are open.

All the screws should be doing is holding the brace in place. Really only until the glue dries then the glue will hold it. There shouldn't be any wieght on the screws or the glue or it more then likely isn't braced correctly

So the brace across the front on my attached photo is not bracing the tank? The only thing bracing is the rear support from top to bottom?

davocean
08/27/2017, 10:54 AM
So the brace across the front on my attached photo is not bracing the tank? The only thing bracing is the rear support from top to bottom?

Manufacturer's would never add anything that is not needed, and those types of stands are minimalist built already and engineered w/ minimalist design to keep cost and shipping weight down, I would not remove anything w/out replacing or correcting.
The issue is MDF is a compromised stand already in a marine environment.

I did suggest a solution on your other post, 1x at face frame, 1x behind that longer and attached inside face frame to secure, if there is room that may be your best option.

fishkeeprian
08/27/2017, 11:44 AM
Manufacturer's would never add anything that is not needed, and those types of stands are minimalist built already and engineered w/ minimalist design to keep cost and shipping weight down, I would not remove anything w/out replacing or correcting.
The issue is MDF is a compromised stand already in a marine environment.

I did suggest a solution on your other post, 1x at face frame, 1x behind that longer and attached inside face frame to secure, if there is room that may be your best option.

Sorry not sure what you mean.

davocean
08/27/2017, 12:08 PM
Well, something like a kreg jig would be good if it was solid lumber where a screw would have some bite, but that's harder to achieve on MDF.
If you make the center brace to fit at face frame like it was originally designed, and also have a backer behind it that is taller but fits behind face frame inside stand, you could attach THAT piece inside stand top and bottom, and attach the front piece to that, also from inside stand so screws do not show, it's a stronger/better fastening system.

SFish
08/27/2017, 12:21 PM
Stapled for something such as a load bearing stand is scary lol

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Just the material a lone that the stand is made out of is scary. I have a problem trusting material I can break with my hands holding that kind of weight. I looked at one of the petco stands for a 55 and most of it was stapled together. I would never buy that crap.

Lsufan
08/27/2017, 01:12 PM
So the brace across the front on my attached photo is not bracing the tank? The only thing bracing is the rear support from top to bottom?

What I was saying is u want the face frame to sit on top of the brace. That way all the wieght is transfer to the brace itself. How u attach the brace isn't as important because all the screws would be doing is holding the brace in place, not supporting anything. If u put the brace on the inside or outside of the face frame then most of the wieght would be transferred to the screws themselves.

It would be easiest to do how Dave mentioned & u would essentially be doubling up the brace & screwing it through the face of the boards, so it would be stronger. I thought u were using the pic as a example & didn't realize that was similar to the stand u had. By doing it how Dave mentioned u would need one of the supports longer then the other. It would need to be long enough to go up behind the face frame. Screw one on the inside of the face frame then screw the other one to the face of the first brace. That would put one behind the face frame that u can screw from the inside of the stand to the face frame. Then the other would sit under the face frame & u can screw it from the inside also. U would have to use the right length screws so they don't go all the way through both, probably 1 1/4" screws, depending on the thickness of the boards u are using.

As far as the bottom, u should be able to flip the stand on its back and predrill the holes & screw it through the bottom of the stand. U would only need to do that on the longer inside support because the support that sits under the face frame would attach to that

davocean
08/27/2017, 01:18 PM
^^ Exactly, I was hoping I was describing that properly.

fishkeeprian
08/27/2017, 02:54 PM
What I was saying is u want the face frame to sit on top of the brace. That way all the wieght is transfer to the brace itself. How u attach the brace isn't as important because all the screws would be doing is holding the brace in place, not supporting anything. If u put the brace on the inside or outside of the face frame then most of the wieght would be transferred to the screws themselves.

It would be easiest to do how Dave mentioned & u would essentially be doubling up the brace & screwing it through the face of the boards, so it would be stronger. I thought u were using the pic as a example & didn't realize that was similar to the stand u had. By doing it how Dave mentioned u would need one of the supports longer then the other. It would need to be long enough to go up behind the face frame. Screw one on the inside of the face frame then screw the other one to the face of the first brace. That would put one behind the face frame that u can screw from the inside of the stand to the face frame. Then the other would sit under the face frame & u can screw it from the inside also. U would have to use the right length screws so they don't go all the way through both, probably 1 1/4" screws, depending on the thickness of the boards u are using.

As far as the bottom, u should be able to flip the stand on its back and predrill the holes & screw it through the bottom of the stand. U would only need to do that on the longer inside support because the support that sits under the face frame would attach to that

Thanks for your explanation. I've found that the cabinet is made from compressed chipboard not MDF as orignally thought.

The front brace pointed out isn't there at the minute. I'm going to put that in and screw it from the out side using HT cross dowell bolts. The wood I will be using is 4" structual timber.

Even looking at the redsea tank cabinets there also designed like the above. Isn't the load bearing on the sides and not the front?

Is it possible to sketch me something as I'm not sure what you are saying. Thanks

Lsufan
08/27/2017, 06:25 PM
https://s19.postimg.org/4rx5jqzj7/IMG_1974.jpg

I can draw something better if u still don't understand, I was in a hurry & in the middle of cooking. Brace #1 is there to give u something to screw brace #2 to. With brace #1 going up behind the top frame u can screw it through the face of it into the top frame. Brace #2 is there for most of the support. It needs to be under the top frame so the top frame is sitting on top of the brace. If u only used brace #1 & it was screwed through the face then the wieght would be on the screws themselves. By having brace #2 the wieght would be transferred to the brace itself because the top face frame would be sitting on top of it.

Doing it this way brace #2 would need to be the same thickness as the top face frame so they end up being flush in the front. Using the right length screws u can screw everything from the inside of the stand so u don't see any screws.

Lsufan
08/27/2017, 06:30 PM
To answer your last question, the tank needs to be supported all the way around the perimeter of the tank. On a tank with trim it needs support under all four sides of the trim. If you stand sags in the center then the tank would only have support in the 4 corners & would stress the seams on the tank & the glass itself.

fishkeeprian
08/28/2017, 01:30 AM
https://s19.postimg.org/4rx5jqzj7/IMG_1974.jpg

I can draw something better if u still don't understand, I was in a hurry & in the middle of cooking. Brace #1 is there to give u something to screw brace #2 to. With brace #1 going up behind the top frame u can screw it through the face of it into the top frame. Brace #2 is there for most of the support. It needs to be under the top frame so the top frame is sitting on top of the brace. If u only used brace #1 & it was screwed through the face then the wieght would be on the screws themselves. By having brace #2 the wieght would be transferred to the brace itself because the top face frame would be sitting on top of it.

Doing it this way brace #2 would need to be the same thickness as the top face frame so they end up being flush in the front. Using the right length screws u can screw everything from the inside of the stand so u don't see any screws.

Hi thank you. I think I understand now. I've already screwed the top brace in from the out side so from you drawing I now wouldn't need brace 1?. Does brace 2 have to be flush with the side, because if so there would be no room to put the hinges back on for the doors. I was thinking if i could move it away from the side I could make a usable compartment to put all my controllers etc? Some something like in the link I have provided?

Also the tank fits the exactly to top of the stand.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/2fcf7kw8zmzd7qn/Screenshot_2017-08-28-08-14-20.png?dl=0

davocean
08/28/2017, 10:52 AM
Both 1x's are needed, but the long one goes to the inside, not the outside as I think you are describing, and if screwed from inside those fasteners are hidden, and this also does not bump you out and mess up for hinges or doors.
The short one sits flush w/ face frame.

Lsufan drawing is correct and very helpful(I can't do comp drawings myself)

fishkeeprian
08/28/2017, 11:56 AM
Both 1x's are needed, but the long one goes to the inside, not the outside as I think you are describing, and if screwed from inside those fasteners are hidden, and this also does not bump you out and mess up for hinges or doors.
The short one sits flush w/ face frame.

Lsufan drawing is correct and very helpful(I can't do comp drawings myself)

Do I need the arrangement at both ends of the tank or one arrangement in the middle or can you confirm which arrangement I should use from my attached photo.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vxktdbedy7b7dwe/20170828_203428.jpg?dl=0

Lsufan
08/28/2017, 06:08 PM
I would put them in the middle of the stand. Right where your doors meet together when they are closed. I did the diagram from the side because u wouldn't be able to tell how to position them if the diagram was of the front of the stand.

Basically brace #1 is there to give u something to screw brace #2. Brace number 2 needs to be directly under your face frame of the stand. So the face frame of the existing stand actually sits on top of the brace. If u put the brace behind or in front of the face frame then the screws themselves are under a lot of pressure.

If u take a pic of what u have already done then I may be able to help more.

fishkeeprian
08/29/2017, 03:04 AM
I would put them in the middle of the stand. Right where your doors meet together when they are closed. I did the diagram from the side because u wouldn't be able to tell how to position them if the diagram was of the front of the stand.

Basically brace #1 is there to give u something to screw brace #2. Brace number 2 needs to be directly under your face frame of the stand. So the face frame of the existing stand actually sits on top of the brace. If u put the brace behind or in front of the face frame than the screws themselves are under a lot of pressure.

If u take a pic of what u have already done then I may be able to help more.

Hi, all I've done is put in a cross member. If I put it in the middle then it goes against what I'm trying to achieve. I wanted an open cabinet at the bottom so I maintain a sump easily. The original picture at the top shows an actual EA Marine 900s tank stand and that's how they sell them. Is there no other way? I just can't see how they would sell them like that if you were going to get bowing issues. If you look at the red sea 250 stands they are sold the same way with a brace across the top with no central support. I have contacted EA Marine technical.

davocean
08/29/2017, 05:32 PM
People compare to what stores sell all the time, and perhaps they will hold just fine for as long as that manufacturer intends for them to last, but going by my experience in this area, many manufacturers expect us to have that tank or be in the hobby a year or two, and sure an MDF stand should easily last that long, how long it takes before they begin to break down or crumble is another story.

Bottom line, MDF is a TERRIBLE choice for marine use long term, and there may be some better designed or using marine grade MDF that are better than others, but still not an ideal choice.

Altering or modifying an MDF stand usually if not always ends up compromising the integrity of it's design,and no manufacturer is going to advise you to do so.

At this point I have no idea what you are trying to achieve, and comments were based on the stand pictured based on assumption you had or planned on removing and replacing a brace in order to make a sump fit.