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five.five-six
08/28/2017, 07:39 PM
I don't know if I should worry about this but in this picture you can see light coming from between the tank and the stand, that's because there is a small gap under the tank between the vertical 2X4s Should I worry about this?


http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=378776&stc=1&d=1503970574

davocean
08/28/2017, 08:29 PM
You have no rim joist, so yeah that ply is just going to sag, you should drain that tank right away and look at rockets template.

Are you in Corona CA?
If so you really should follow the template, we get quakes, that right there probably would not survive a moderate one

five.five-six
08/28/2017, 08:30 PM
look at rockets template.



Link?

badbreath
08/28/2017, 09:10 PM
How many gallons is that tank

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zxknight
08/28/2017, 09:46 PM
i would repair that..

JaySchulz
08/28/2017, 09:54 PM
Yea that needs to be redone. I'd drain the tank asap before it to much stress is put on the seams and the tank is ruined. You need a support under the plywood edges like the picture attached. The header will prevent sagging.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170829/d5fd79d5bf75d83c0bc986800bacf2ca.jpg

Google search "RocketEngineer Fish Tank Stand Template".


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davocean
08/28/2017, 11:29 PM
It can be modified to be acceptable but you'll need tank off and take it at least partly apart to do so.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1567110

five.five-six
08/29/2017, 02:28 AM
It's a 135 and it's used. Previous owner had it on that stand for a little over a year.

Can draining it wait till this weekend?

Clowning_Around
08/29/2017, 06:10 AM
I would salvage what you have and rebuild, the sooner the better.

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Ihuntbugs
08/29/2017, 06:29 AM
Yes I would redo as well.


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five.five-six
08/29/2017, 06:37 AM
I'm thinking I'll cut the top 3 1/2 inches off the top of the 3 verticals and set a 2X4 between the tops of them and the plywood. Oddly, the front has rim joist though I'm going to try and turn the vertices on side to get me some more room for a sump.

Is a standard 2X4 strong enough for the rim joist?

davocean
08/29/2017, 08:18 AM
I would prefer 2x6 but I guess you might as well match the front cause it's not really going to be any stronger than your weakest link/section, you'll just need vertical supports, turned sideways for that is fine.

2x6 allows less vertical support, more clearance, but if you've got 2 verts in front already should be fine, back side clearance does not matter really, so as long as you are good w/ those verts in the front just match it.

4 corner legs I prefer double 2x's in an L shape pattern.

Rim sides too and get vertical supports under that as well, again sideways is fine, just always put a vertical under the horizontals.

mcgyvr
08/29/2017, 08:31 AM
The fact that stand has been holding that tank for a while now (and it should) shows just how overkill the rocket design is.. Nothing really wrong with that though but it is overkill..

Clowning_Around
08/29/2017, 08:32 AM
I think there maybe more to the rebuild than just the rim joist. I can't entirely tell from the picture but it appears your current rear center leg bears on an elevated plywood base not directly transferring the load to the floor. If that is the case, I question your current stands load path. Again I would salvage the members and rebuild. Meaning entire disassemble and reassemble inlieu of the band-aid approach.

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five.five-six
08/29/2017, 08:59 AM
It's a peninsula now, so the back will now be a front. The front only has 2 verticals, the load is cut into thirds, though I'm sure the plywood face is carrying much of the load.

Another advantage is the bot in it's previous home and now, it's on slab.

davocean
08/29/2017, 10:09 AM
The fact that stand has been holding that tank for a while now (and it should) shows just how overkill the rocket design is.. Nothing really wrong with that though but it is overkill..

We have not had a real quake here in a long time, sure it will hold the weight, but if it is shaken it will rack and fold.

I know it's hard for people that don't deal w/ quakes to understand that we need to build differently than you do.

Even if not taking a quake into consideration, you've got vertical support in front and none in back, a very uneven load distribution, and on that long of a run there has got to be some uneven stress going on, and while trimmed tanks do carry some of that, it's certainly not increasing the life of that tank as is.

mcgyvr
08/29/2017, 11:45 AM
We have not had a real quake here in a long time, sure it will hold the weight, but if it is shaken it will rack and fold.

I know it's hard for people that don't deal w/ quakes to understand that we need to build differently than you do.


I agree that you need to build more strength into stands there.. (I build systems to withstand zone 4 Earthquake requirements all day long)

I was just making a comment for comments sake really..
I should have included "for most" in my but "its overkill" comment..

I saw "Corona" and my mind went straight to beer like usual :beer:

five.five-six
08/29/2017, 12:38 PM
Depending on the earthquake and where you are, most of the time load bearing does you no good whatsoever. You could use 4X4's and your stand will fold like a wet blanket without shear strength. Shear value is achieved by connecting plywood to the load bearing members or with crossmemebers such as a let in brace. Since most of our tanks are covered with sheets of right material, so long as they are connected well, there's no need for crossmemebers.

Clowning_Around
08/29/2017, 03:58 PM
The simple answer, if the OP went out of the way to post a thread on the su ject theres obviously some question on the mind. Redo it even if overbuilt to help with sleeping at night :)

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davocean
08/29/2017, 04:22 PM
Depending on the earthquake and where you are, most of the time load bearing does you no good whatsoever. You could use 4X4's and your stand will fold like a wet blanket without shear strength. Shear value is achieved by connecting plywood to the load bearing members or with crossmemebers such as a let in brace. Since most of our tanks are covered with sheets of right material, so long as they are connected well, there's no need for crossmemebers.

Well, you're talking to carpenter of 30 years and contractor of 11 that understands this quite well, and actually 4x is a weaker connection and poor choice, and while I agree sheer strength is greatly improved when we add ply, it's not the only way to achieve that strength we need from racking.

I've been building tank stands for many years, most of my skins are removeable, in other words barely or not connected at all, and all my strength is gained from 2x alone, but properly joined and designed.

My last 180g frame alone withstood that last big 6.3 we had that one Easter, anything stronger and most likely glass would probably fail no matter what it sits on.

Clowning_Around
08/29/2017, 04:30 PM
Well actually for earth quakes a rigid connection and frame is the worst solution in earthquake design.

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davocean
08/29/2017, 04:38 PM
Well actually for earth quakes a rigid connection and frame is the worst solution in earthquake design.

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A rigid connection to a WALL is the worst thing.
All buildings here have sheer strength in some way shape or form.

davocean
08/29/2017, 04:41 PM
Yea that needs to be redone. I'd drain the tank asap before it to much stress is put on the seams and the tank is ruined. You need a support under the plywood edges like the picture attached. The header will prevent sagging.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170829/d5fd79d5bf75d83c0bc986800bacf2ca.jpg

Google search "RocketEngineer Fish Tank Stand Template".


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This is a perfect example of a properly built stand frame that will hold up, and yes I understand and agree it's not the only way to achieve that and 1x or ply can work just as well as long as properly joined and designed, but that's not the topic nor build style OP posted questions about.

Clowning_Around
08/29/2017, 05:30 PM
A rigid connection to a WALL is the worst thing.
All buildings here have sheer strength in some way shape or form.Technically thats second sentence is not correct

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five.five-six
08/29/2017, 06:00 PM
I don't see how that's possible. The instalation of wallboard adds shear value to the building.

davocean
08/29/2017, 06:02 PM
Maybe not sheer WALL, but sheer strength, there's a difference, and yes I know not everyone has sheer wall, but most new construction does in some way shape or form.

davocean
08/29/2017, 06:02 PM
I don't see how that's possible. The instalation of wallboard adds shear value to the building.

Exactly, even drywall has sheer value

five.five-six
08/29/2017, 08:06 PM
Ok, I have the tank dry and off the stand, what should I look for when I inspect the tank?

davocean
08/29/2017, 10:34 PM
I would assume it's fine and do a leak test on stand after you modify it, preferably somewhere like garage or something that won't matter if there are issues.

five.five-six
08/30/2017, 04:07 AM
I would assume it's fine and do a leak test on stand after you modify it, preferably somewhere like garage or something that won't matter if there are issues.

I have a 25GPD membrane, it should take several days to fill my tank. the vast majority of tank failures are not catastrophic. Once modified, I'll just fill it in place and monitor.

davocean
08/30/2017, 08:15 AM
Usually we do a leak test w/ just tap from a hose, no need to waste RO, but do what feels right and makes you comfortable.
The issue w/ your stand as is would be continuous stress over a period of time that could cause failure or shortened life, so if it was fine and you saw no evidence of issues I'd say good as long as the modifications are done.

As to what to look for it would be really hard to see anything, especially w/ trim hiding joints/seams.

It would be much more noticeable and also much more critical on a trimless tank

Clowning_Around
08/30/2017, 10:46 AM
Exactly, even drywall has sheer valueWho says there's drywall, i recall seeing several outdoor pavilions structures with no drywall....

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davocean
08/30/2017, 10:53 AM
Who says there's drywall, i recall seeing several outdoor pavilions structures with no drywall....

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Good lord dude, give it a rest man, every home has some kind of exterior or interior covering of which all provide shear strength of some kind, and your comments no longer have anything to do w/ OP's post or add value.

Start a thread on a home building site if you wish to explore common construction and sheer value choices or benefits...geez....:deadhorse1:

five.five-six
08/30/2017, 11:01 AM
Lolz

Clowning_Around
08/30/2017, 01:44 PM
Good lord dude, give it a rest man, every home has some kind of exterior or interior covering of which all provide shear strength of some kind, and your comments no longer have anything to do w/ OP's post or add value.

Start a thread on a home building site if you wish to explore common construction and sheer value choices or benefits...geez....:deadhorse1:Sorry was just having a little fun. Your right, it is not my intention to derail the OP's thread.

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davocean
08/30/2017, 01:57 PM
I should have expected that w/ your SN I spose!

Clowning_Around
08/30/2017, 02:06 PM
Its all good.

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five.five-six
08/30/2017, 07:18 PM
Ok, well I took out all the verticals, I'm glad I did because the person who make this stand relied entirely too much on finish nails :( The members popped out surprisingly easy with a simple jack.

Here is my question, what is the tollerance in length on the verticals members? I'm not a framer but I do own a circular saw. Without using my micrometer I'd say ther are all +/- 10 thousandths.

davocean
08/30/2017, 08:32 PM
Well, Shoot for perfect of course, a miter saw makes that much easier, I hate to call out a slop acceptance number but I guess w/ in a 1/16"and of course preferably less, but hopefully you are having a good day and make better than last guy.

Clowning_Around
08/31/2017, 05:28 AM
Try this... temporarily screw all off them together, then trim both ends of the stack as one member. This will give you a very uniform length but this may also be difficult to do with a circular saw depending on youre comfort/ skill level

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five.five-six
08/31/2017, 06:36 AM
Try this... temporarily screw all off them together, then trim both ends of the stack as one member. This will give you a very uniform length but this may also be difficult to do with a circular saw depending on youre comfort/ skill level

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I used a pipe vice and a belt sander

+/- 10 thousandths is about 0.25/16"