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Horace
09/11/2017, 03:11 PM
Hey folks,

I have a fairly fresh build that is having a significant outbreak of both Diatoms and Cyano. The Diatoms came first (as expected after the cycle), but I have never had Cyano come on this heavy. its covering about 75% of the sandbed that is not shaded, and its also on most of the rocks. The Diatoms are also long and stringy at this point, so the tank is looking like royal !&$%!!!!!

I have been dosing vinegar as well from about 2 weeks in to try to deal with some of the nitrate left over from the cycle, plus I have had good luck with carbon dosing in the past (although that was using Vodka).

My question is, did I bring on this cyano outbreak??? I am dosing fairly low levels of vinegar (10ml/day) for a 200g+ system. The vinegar isn't exactly new (probably a year old or so), so I am wondering if that may be the reason?

Anyway, my thoughts are to get my hands on some cheato (still have not been able to do that!), and start cultivating that in the sump, but am hesitant to keep dosing carbon for fear that its the cause of the Cyano.

Note: Nitrate is sitting around 25-30 right now. Not sure of the P04 yet, I don't have a good kit for that (no corals in the tank yet).


Thoughts?

mcgyvr
09/11/2017, 03:25 PM
Nope...

Did you use "live sand"?

I expect "diatoms" after a cycle... Not dinos..

Horace
09/11/2017, 03:27 PM
Nope...

Did you use "live sand"?

I expect "diatoms" after a cycle... Not dinos..

Dinos = Diatoms :)

No, I don't believe in that live sand thing.

I did get some sand from a friend's tank, as well as a few ceramic media (which have since been returned) after the cycle completed.

mcgyvr
09/11/2017, 03:30 PM
Dinos = Diatoms :)

.

No..
Dinos = dinoflagellates :)
Dinos does not equal diatoms..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinoflagellate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatom

Horace
09/11/2017, 03:39 PM
No..
Dinos = dinoflagellates :)
Dinos does not equal diatoms..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinoflagellate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatom

Regardless, you knew what I meant :)

bertoni
09/11/2017, 04:18 PM
Diatoms are handled easily by snails. Trochus are happy to eat them, for example. Dinoflagellates can be more problematic. I take it the tank has dinoflagellates? Personally, I'd just wait a while. Stopping the vinegar might help, if it is encouraging the bloom. That's hard to determine, though. Year-old vinegar should be fine.

Horace
09/11/2017, 06:17 PM
Diatoms are handled easily by snails. Trochus are happy to eat them, for example. Dinoflagellates can be more problematic. I take it the tank has dinoflagellates? Personally, I'd just wait a while. Stopping the vinegar might help, if it is encouraging the bloom. That's hard to determine, though. Year-old vinegar should be fine.

i meant diatoms....and mistakenly put dinos instead. I dont have dinos. I do need to buy some clean up crew though. I will keep the Trochus in mind. Ive not got those kind previously.

Either way the carbon dosing seems to be making the cyano worse, which vinegar isnt supposed to do.....but I am guessing it is regardless. I see some folks dose some MB7 to outcompete the cyano, and I may give that a shot if this doesnt start to clear up soon.

My first plan is to get some good cheato going in the sump. Ultimately I would like to get an ATS going, but that is a project I am just not ready to undertake yet.

bertoni
09/11/2017, 06:53 PM
Vinegar might be less likely to feed cyanobacterial blooms, but different tanks have different reactions. I'd cut back if I were convinced it was causing a problem. New tanks often show such blooms, though.

karimwassef
09/12/2017, 12:00 AM
what would make "old" vinegar different from new vinegar?

It's acetic acid and water, right? What could it decompose into?

If it got polluted maybe? but I don't know of a pollutant that would contribute specifically to just cyano...

did it get contaminated with silica sand and that contributed to diatoms?

sorry- more questions than answers.

Horace
09/12/2017, 10:28 AM
what would make "old" vinegar different from new vinegar?

It's acetic acid and water, right? What could it decompose into?

If it got polluted maybe? but I don't know of a pollutant that would contribute specifically to just cyano...

did it get contaminated with silica sand and that contributed to diatoms?

sorry- more questions than answers.I think I read something about bacteria getting into it and using up some of the carbon. I will see if I can dig that up

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ajm83
09/12/2017, 10:45 AM
The Diatoms are also long and stringy at this point, so the tank is looking like royal !&$%!!!!!

I know you said you posted the word 'dinos' by mistake, but your description here also sounds like dinos, can you post a pic?

bertoni
09/12/2017, 02:43 PM
Hmm, I agree that diatoms will not form strings by themselves. They have a solid silicate test (shell) so they aren't sticky. They will grow in combination with dinoflagellates and cyanobacteria, though.

mcgyvr
09/12/2017, 04:59 PM
I know you said you posted the word 'dinos' by mistake, but your description here also sounds like dinos, can you post a pic?

Well.. he said dinos but meant diatoms.. so lets also assume he said dinos but meant stringy cyano..

I think horace (Kurt) may be using the old vinegar because he drank all the new vodka :hmm2:

I thought overtime vinegar (if left open) will absorb moisture from the air and the acetic acid will decompose both leading to a less acidic solution..

taricha
09/12/2017, 08:42 PM
OP has dinos (I'd bet), regardless of what he meant to type ;-)
Stringy diatoms = super crazy rare
Stringy dinoflagellates = very annoyingly common.
Post pics, or better yet, Google paper towel dino test, and find out.

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Horace
09/12/2017, 10:10 PM
Ok, so I did the paper towel test. It looks like 95% or more of the algae did not make it through the towel. The water looks quite clear actually. I am waiting to see if anything happens....

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170913/ebcbe33cf5d8abae3239bcba7d94d17d.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170913/6f74675d3b960f52dce5f2c7adf78869.jpg

Horace
09/12/2017, 10:12 PM
Here is a vid of the tank. I took the lights off tonight to work on the canopy. I notice a good deal of the red slime on the sandbed is GREATLY diminished. I would say by about 90%, and the lights were only off for about 6 hours. The brown algae seems to be about the same....

Not sure that it matters, but all the rock was dry prior to putting it in the tank.

Here is a vid:

<div style="position:relative;height:0;padding-bottom:56.21%"><iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9aYjlgv_oQ4?ecver=2" style="position:absolute;width:100%;height:100%;left:0" width="641" height="360" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

bertoni
09/12/2017, 10:48 PM
I'll try to be careful with my terms. My personal guess is that you are seeing cyanobacteria, because dinoflagellates are said produce a lot of bubbles. Unfortunately, I don't know how many of those claims were backed up by an id with a microscope. Whether the tank has cyanobacteria or dinoflagellates is a secondary issue for now. With a bit of luck, the pest will go away with a bit of time or work.

I might consider siphoning out as much of the slime as is easy to get. That'll help export nutrients. Sometimes, a bit of GFO helps, but not always.

Horace
09/12/2017, 11:00 PM
Well it has been almost an hour and the water still looks very clear, i dont see any algae reforming....so I am hoping that means its NOT Dinos :)

At this point my bet is on brown cyano, given i know for sure i have cyano all over.

Horace
09/13/2017, 05:48 AM
Cup was left under a light all night, water is still clear. I am guessing this is just cyano brought on by extra carbon....

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mcgyvr
09/13/2017, 05:52 AM
Welcome to a normal new tanks "ugly stages"

taricha
09/13/2017, 06:37 AM
Thanks for doing test and posting vid. (I can't see pics) The vid and description sure looks and sounds like dinos to me - with cyano too.
I guess I should stop recommending paper towel test, because it seems like more paper towels lately are blocking everything no matter what. Ideally it should block cyano and allow diatoms and dinos through, and if dinos - it re-clumps on the other side.

Variation, just pull some samples, and shake until really well mixed and let it sit, in a few minutes, dinos would reclump into blobs and strings.

I could be wrong, so If you don't have anything in the tank that's super sensitive, feel free to just treat it like normal uglies/cyano and deal with it that way. If it's dinos, you'll still have it well after normal "uglies" disappear.

karimwassef
09/13/2017, 07:38 AM
Maybe we need a specific paper test - like "charmin ultra strong" or maybe coffee filters

Horace
09/13/2017, 08:25 AM
Thanks for doing test and posting vid. (I can't see pics) The vid and description sure looks and sounds like dinos to me - with cyano too.
I guess I should stop recommending paper towel test, because it seems like more paper towels lately are blocking everything no matter what. Ideally it should block cyano and allow diatoms and dinos through, and if dinos - it re-clumps on the other side.

Variation, just pull some samples, and shake until really well mixed and let it sit, in a few minutes, dinos would reclump into blobs and strings.

I could be wrong, so If you don't have anything in the tank that's super sensitive, feel free to just treat it like normal uglies/cyano and deal with it that way. If it's dinos, you'll still have it well after normal "uglies" disappear.


Yeah I can try siphoning more off and see if it reclumps....you are right, that the paper towel did seem to filter everything out.....that water was quite clean, when the description said it should be a bit brown after. I will give it a shot after work.

Horace
09/13/2017, 08:32 AM
Thanks for doing test and posting vid. (I can't see pics) The vid and description sure looks and sounds like dinos to me - with cyano too.
I guess I should stop recommending paper towel test, because it seems like more paper towels lately are blocking everything no matter what. Ideally it should block cyano and allow diatoms and dinos through, and if dinos - it re-clumps on the other side.

Variation, just pull some samples, and shake until really well mixed and let it sit, in a few minutes, dinos would reclump into blobs and strings.

I could be wrong, so If you don't have anything in the tank that's super sensitive, feel free to just treat it like normal uglies/cyano and deal with it that way. If it's dinos, you'll still have it well after normal "uglies" disappear.

From my reading, distinguishing between dinos and cyano is often nearly impossible unless you do so under a microscope. I will do the clump test again and hopefully i can put that to rest. Otherwise I will be going dark on the tank and just lighting my cheato (still dont have any yet) only for a while until my nitrate/phosphate are to the point that no algae/bacteria will live....

Thankfully I dont have any corals yet, so going dark isnt a big deal. The fish will get over it :)

taricha
09/13/2017, 06:57 PM
Maybe we need a specific paper test - like "charmin ultra strong" or maybe coffee filters


I think coffee filter is promising, or bigger like filter pad, or media bag. Need to test it though. Honestly anything with filter size between 50 and 500 microns should let shaken dinos through, and stop cyano strands.

From my reading, distinguishing between dinos and cyano is often nearly impossible unless you do so under a microscope. I will do the clump test again and hopefully i can put that to rest. Otherwise I will be going dark on the tank and just lighting my cheato (still dont have any yet) only for a while until my nitrate/phosphate are to the point that no algae/bacteria will live....

Thankfully I dont have any corals yet, so going dark isnt a big deal. The fish will get over it :)


There are naked eye differences, but they are hard to describe in text to someone else, also we ought to just find the H2o2 concentration that makes cyano bubble, because dinos/diatoms don't. That'd be a simple test.

You can lights out if you want, in my experience it just kicks the can down the road.


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Horace
09/13/2017, 08:43 PM
So I siphoned off more and shook the heck out of it. It mostly all settled to the bottom and seems to have clumped up again.....I did not filter it at all. It looked like if I had shook up a 1/4 sheet of toilet paper. Hundreds of tiny shreds

I'm not sure what other filter to try. Maybe a piece of my Rollermat floss?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170914/e1e74c698c7934c28a19ce6d85993beb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170914/27563d817466ef1a945199340d04156c.jpg

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karimwassef
09/13/2017, 11:58 PM
you need to filter it.

Horace
09/14/2017, 07:12 AM
you need to filter it.

Aight...I will find something...maybe a cloth or something