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rtparty
09/17/2017, 04:08 PM
What was your experience doing this? Positive? Negative?

Psychomantix
09/17/2017, 04:45 PM
Protein skimmers are probably the biggest innovation in the reefing hobby that allows us to keep successful tanks. Chaeto is just algae.

kuzko
09/17/2017, 04:48 PM
I've done it successfully in a nano tank but nothing bigger than 10 gallons - would need quite a bit of it I imagine. I have a hang on back "breeder box" that is about 0.8 gallons - has a little LED strip on it and replaced my old HOB refugium that had a corallife nano skimmer. I've actually had the chaeto strip nitrates too low to the point that they wouldn't show up in the API test kits because I forgot to trim it back for about a month. Bonsai acro got a little brownish until I pulled some out. By some I mean I pulled out enough to fill up about a 20 gallon chamber of the sump on my clown breeding setup - which within about 2 weeks grew so much that I've taken the skimmer out of there as well - that's an 80 gallon system so we will see how it works on there. I can post pics in a few but it's nothing fancy.

rtparty
09/17/2017, 05:09 PM
Protein skimmers are probably the biggest innovation in the reefing hobby that allows us to keep successful tanks. Chaeto is just algae.How so?

They both do the same thing in the end: remove nutrients. I'd bet chaeto outperforms a skimmer in this regard even.

Problem with most systems is they don't run enough or large enough refugium sections.

Bulk Reef Supply has some awesome videos on chaeto. I recommend watching them

rtparty
09/17/2017, 05:17 PM
I've done it successfully in a nano tank but nothing bigger than 10 gallons - would need quite a bit of it I imagine. I have a hang on back "breeder box" that is about 0.8 gallons - has a little LED strip on it and replaced my old HOB refugium that had a corallife nano skimmer. I've actually had the chaeto strip nitrates too low to the point that they wouldn't show up in the API test kits because I forgot to trim it back for about a month. Bonsai acro got a little brownish until I pulled some out. By some I mean I pulled out enough to fill up about a 20 gallon chamber of the sump on my clown breeding setup - which within about 2 weeks grew so much that I've taken the skimmer out of there as well - that's an 80 gallon system so we will see how it works on there. I can post pics in a few but it's nothing fancy.For the majority of my reefing career I've been limited to nano aquariums. Ran a JBJ nano cube for a very long time. No skimmer, no real fuge. I kept just about anything I wanted outside of super sensitive acros. I would run a shower basket of chaeto when I needed to clean the tank. Worked wonderfully.

I've also ran a couple tanks with skimmers and had good success.

kuzko
09/17/2017, 05:31 PM
The only "filtration" I have on this 10 gallon is this little chaeto area.

https://i.imgur.com/bc10BJj.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/d66sJhz.png


Seems pretty happy to me.

https://i.imgur.com/eXCBtCM.png


As long as I keep the chaeto at the "sweet spot" it doesn't strip nitrates too fast. Seems about every 10 days I need to trim it back a bit. If I wait much longer the bonsai acro's start to brown a little bit. Still adjusting a little bit but it's very possible and working pretty well for me so far.

mcgyvr
09/17/2017, 06:05 PM
They both do the same thing in the end:

Do they? ;)
One targets organics.. the other inorganics..

psychomantix did an excellent impression of a sleazy skimmer salesman though .. points for that.. :lmao:

ca1ore
09/17/2017, 06:49 PM
I do view skimmer and algae as complementary. Skimmer removes about 1/3 of the organics; algae removes the end product nutrients from the other 2/3. Probably not precisely correct, but good enough for government work .... and reef tanks. Completely agree, BTW, that expecting miracles from tiny refugiums is kind of foolish.

rtparty
09/17/2017, 06:51 PM
Do they? ;)
One targets organics.. the other inorganics..

psychomantix did an excellent impression of a sleazy skimmer salesman though .. points for that.. :lmao:The end result is what I'm talking about. One removes before they break down, the other after but the end result is the same: less nutrients

rtparty
09/17/2017, 06:53 PM
I do view skimmer and algae as complementary. Skimmer removes about 1/3 of the organics; algae removes the end product nutrients from the other 2/3. Probably not precisely correct, but good enough for government work .... and reef tanks. Completely agree, BTW, that expecting miracles from tiny refugiums is kind of foolish.I think they can work together as well and that's the best option IMO. But if you can only choose one, which one is it?

ca1ore
09/17/2017, 09:34 PM
If only one, and of adequate size, I'd choose a chaeto refugium.

mcgyvr
09/18/2017, 04:37 AM
If only one, and of adequate size, I'd choose a chaeto refugium.

And I'd choose a skimmer.... or an ATS

I think the best thing about a chaeto fuge is that you can make money selling off the scrap chaeto.. I don't think they function all that well in most systems..

rtparty
09/18/2017, 07:20 AM
And I'd choose a skimmer.... or an ATS

I think the best thing about a chaeto fuge is that you can make money selling off the scrap chaeto.. I don't think they function all that well in most systems..Mostly because they are too small or not implemented properly. Bulk Reef Supply's testing shows a ball of chaeto with a good light can easily maintain nutrients. The light makes a HUGE difference.

jda
09/18/2017, 08:58 AM
Their informercial just showed that three various types of light were all capable of growing enough chaeto to consume what they put in the tank. ...not that they can replace a skimmer. Most of that video was bunk, but the part about just a CFL taking the nutrients to zero just like a Kessil did was probably pretty real.

Skimmers do not get wary, nor fluctuate in delivery. Have you ever tried to maintain a large amount of chaeto? It is REAL work and most people slack off of it after a while. You have to trim, pull it apart, actually export it and when you do, the production will change and nutrient levels will rise for a bit before they come back down. If you do not farm it and pull it apart, it will just stop growing. Massive chaeto requires massive amounts of iron and other trace minerals that are on a whole different level than having just a normal sized amount - these can be replaced ok with supplements, but water changes will spurt new growth even better. If your option also includes massive water changes to help the chaeto, then that might be good. None of this is impossible, but it is not as easy as maintaining a little ball in a reactor.

Keep in the mind that lots of the nasty things that we do not want in our tank, yet get in anyway, bind to organics and get skimmed out. Copper, Aluminum, Tin, Phosphates in some cases - I am missing some. Most of these come in food, but only skimming and large water changes can keep these under control. If you tank suffers from low PH, then you will drive off even less CO2 without a skimmer - chaeto does not keep PH up like other macros.

IMO, skimmer and chaeto are different things for different purposes.... diet and exercise... one gets a bunch on the front end and the other deals with stuff after it is onboard already. You can do OK with just diet or exercise, but everybody is way better off with both.

ca1ore
09/18/2017, 09:15 AM
Don't disagree with any of that. My chaeto refugium is almost 40 gallons in volume, lit both from above and underneath, and I do have to dose Fe. I export 5 gallons (loose not packed) of it every two weeks or so and actually take the time to pick mini brittles out of the discard. Not for the fainthearted.

BTW, I also run a large skimmer and ATS.

jda
09/18/2017, 09:34 AM
I was 15-20 minutes a few times a week, just making sure that the side and bottom glass was clean just so that the light could get in. Also, selling it sounds better than it really is... after a few months, every local hobbyist and store who needs some will be stocked up and then you just end up throwing it away... which is fine, but it is not a money maker for most folks. I had beat-up 120G glass fuge on a nasty FOWLR and I could pull out 100 quart sized zip locks a week - I did not have enough time to even try and ship all of those for $10 a pop and the scale was overwhelming.

It is true that most function poorly because they are not maintained well, but if you think that BRS kept those tanks pristine as a hobby and not as a job, or that you can do the same for years and years, then you might be really surprised. Again, none of this is impossible, but I cannot stress enough that it is real work. Most think that it is awesome for a few months while their small ball ramps up and everything is clean, tells everybody on the internet how easy it is and then never follow up when real life sets in a few months later and it all stops or they got a part-time job as an aquatic gardener.

I think that you can totally do this, just be realistic about the time commitment and step up your water changes because organic export is still important for reasons other than N and P.

SAT
09/18/2017, 09:38 AM
I found the Chaeto wouldn't grow until I added a GFO rector. Now I pull out about a gallon (lightly compressed) per week, which goes in my compost pile after I rinse it. I credit the Chaeto for driving the nitrates down to zero (much less than my LaMotte kit can read) from a previously very high level. I have yet to determine if zero nitrates is a good thing for my tank or not, but it's certainly better than what I had before.

I have run the tank with and without a skimmer and it's not obvious to me whether the skimmer makes any difference. However, it's pretty clear that the skimmer exports less than the Chaeto.

rtparty
09/18/2017, 09:41 AM
Their informercial just showed that three various types of light were all capable of growing enough chaeto to consume what they put in the tank. ...not that they can replace a skimmer. Most of that video was bunk, but the part about just a CFL taking the nutrients to zero just like a Kessil did was probably pretty real.

Skimmers do not get wary, nor fluctuate in delivery. Have you ever tried to maintain a large amount of chaeto? It is REAL work and most people slack off of it after a while. You have to trim, pull it apart, actually export it and when you do, the production will change and nutrient levels will rise for a bit before they come back down. If you do not farm it and pull it apart, it will just stop growing. Massive chaeto requires massive amounts of iron and other trace minerals that are on a whole different level than having just a normal sized amount - these can be replaced ok with supplements, but water changes will spurt new growth even better. If your option also includes massive water changes to help the chaeto, then that might be good. None of this is impossible, but it is not as easy as maintaining a little ball in a reactor.

Keep in the mind that lots of the nasty things that we do not want in our tank, yet get in anyway, bind to organics and get skimmed out. Copper, Aluminum, Tin, Phosphates in some cases - I am missing some. Most of these come in food, but only skimming and large water changes can keep these under control. If you tank suffers from low PH, then you will drive off even less CO2 without a skimmer - chaeto does not keep PH up like other macros.

IMO, skimmer and chaeto are different things for different purposes.... diet and exercise... one gets a bunch on the front end and the other deals with stuff after it is onboard already. You can do OK with just diet or exercise, but everybody is way better off with both.Take out your first paragraph and I can believe most of what you say. However, BRS provided facts and numbers that weren't bunk. You may not want to believe them because of your disdain for BRS, but that doesn't make them any less true. The stronger lights provided more growth and higher pH. That isn't a theory unless you think BRS lies about everything. In that case, we can't have a solid discussion.

My very first tank was totally filtered by chaeto and live rock/sand. I put a HOB refugium on my tank that held quite a bit of water and chaeto. I had to farm it out monthly as I used a standard T8 fluorescent bulb over it and ran it reverse daylight. It wasn't that much work from what I remember. No more work than cleaning my skimmer cup every few days and tearing the skimmer apart monthly to clean and maintain. I also never dosed iron or other elements to keep it thriving but see where that would be a major benefit. Keeping a FW planted tank was a real eye opener and teacher for me.

On to your part about skimmers removing "a lot" of stuff we don't want. Every study and test I've found shows even the best skimmer remove less than 30% of the DOC in a system. That isn't "a lot" to me. It's like saying I have an air purifier and it only removes 30% of the impurities. That means it leaves 70% for me to breathe. So while better than nothing, it isn't "a lot".

Having said that, I appreciate your input and as of right now I plan to keep my skimmer since I do know that adding chaeto to my sump will also grow other stuff I don't want in my sump. That's the maintenance I don't want. The chaeto harvesting is easy IMO

jda
09/18/2017, 10:21 AM
Three types of light took the N and P to zero in their study. They each had the same amount of food to build with - they were each limited in the same way. The ball from the most expensive light weighted more and was larger - true, but tricky and needs explaining. What was in this ball since they all got the same nutrients to build with? What was the difference? Water. That is all. ...but they either were not smart enough to know this (which I doubt) or they left it out since one solution can be purchased for $20 at home depot and another is a product that they sell. Infomercial. I have no venom... these "studies" cost money to make and they need to sell stuff to stay in business. I don't think that they lie, but people need to understand that these are not science. Is the tank away from this whole video different if they said that the Kessil Fuge light grew chaeto with more water in it?

Dr. Holmes-Farley had a nice post of skimmers and metals bound to organics which I wish that I saved a link of. It is true that total organics removed is about 1/3 in total, but these don't enter the N cycle in the same quantity since they have other things bound to them. Nearly all of them get skimmed out since they stick around to get cycled again and again. IIRC, this might have been in a article or thread about Kalk since Kalk is full of impurities that need dealt with. ...ask anybody who turned a skimmer on with copper medication - it all leaves the tank (even one without aragonite for the copper to bind to) in a few days, not just 30%.

PAXpress
09/18/2017, 10:25 AM
Even with chaeto I still seem to get some nasty lookin gunk in my skimmer... Maybe my chaeto needs to fill in more or a bigger fuge? For now I'll read and see what others think on this.

rtparty
09/18/2017, 10:25 AM
Three types of light took the N and P to zero in their study. They each had the same amount of food to build with - they were each limited in the same way. The ball from the most expensive light weighted more and was larger - true, but tricky and needs explaining. What was in this ball since they all got the same nutrients to build with? What was the difference? Water. That is all. ...but they either were not smart enough to know this (which I doubt) or they left it out since one solution can be purchased for $20 at home depot and another is a product that they sell. Infomercial. I have no venom... these "studies" cost money to make and they need to sell stuff to stay in business. I don't think that they lie, but people need to understand that these are not science. Is the tank away from this whole video different if they said that the Kessil Fuge light grew chaeto with more water in it?

Dr. Holmes-Farley had a nice post of skimmers and metals bound to organics which I wish that I saved a link of. It is true that total organics removed is about 1/3 in total, but these don't enter the N cycle in the same quantity since they have other things bound to them. Nearly all of them get skimmed out since they stick around to get cycled again and again. IIRC, this might have been in a article or thread about Kalk since Kalk is full of impurities that need dealt with. ...ask anybody who turned a skimmer on with copper medication - it all leaves the tank (even one without aragonite for the copper to bind to) in a few days, not just 30%.

Thank you for the info.

What I learned most in the video was that a strong light on chaeto can increase pH. That goes along with the whole reverse daylight idea we've been taught about for years and years.

I also learned I could spend $20 on a grow light from Amazon and get far better results than a CFL from Home Depot. It actually showed me that the big expensive Kessil isn't needed.

mcgyvr
09/18/2017, 10:38 AM
Some interesting articles here..
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/rs/feature/index.php
going along with this default reading material..
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php

ktownhero
09/18/2017, 10:50 AM
I find that with a fuge full of chaeto, my skimmer basically does nothing. Debating on selling it.

ktownhero
09/18/2017, 10:55 AM
Three types of light took the N and P to zero in their study. They each had the same amount of food to build with - they were each limited in the same way. The ball from the most expensive light weighted more and was larger - true, but tricky and needs explaining. What was in this ball since they all got the same nutrients to build with? What was the difference? Water. That is all. ...but they either were not smart enough to know this (which I doubt) or they left it out since one solution can be purchased for $20 at home depot and another is a product that they sell. Infomercial. I have no venom... these "studies" cost money to make and they need to sell stuff to stay in business. I don't think that they lie, but people need to understand that these are not science. Is the tank away from this whole video different if they said that the Kessil Fuge light grew chaeto with more water in it?

Dr. Holmes-Farley had a nice post of skimmers and metals bound to organics which I wish that I saved a link of. It is true that total organics removed is about 1/3 in total, but these don't enter the N cycle in the same quantity since they have other things bound to them. Nearly all of them get skimmed out since they stick around to get cycled again and again. IIRC, this might have been in a article or thread about Kalk since Kalk is full of impurities that need dealt with. ...ask anybody who turned a skimmer on with copper medication - it all leaves the tank (even one without aragonite for the copper to bind to) in a few days, not just 30%.

You need to chill out. They did use a $20 Amazon bulb... And they showed that it was significantly better than a standard bulb, almost as good as the Kessil. And if you don't understand that light intensity and spectrum can have different affects on how something grows, then you're in the wrong hobby my friend...

d0ughb0y
09/18/2017, 11:28 AM
Three types of light took the N and P to zero in their study. They each had the same amount of food to build with - they were each limited in the same way. The ball from the most expensive light weighted more and was larger - true, but tricky and needs explaining. What was in this ball since they all got the same nutrients to build with? What was the difference? Water. That is all. ...but they either were not smart enough to know this (which I doubt) or they left it out since one solution can be purchased for $20 at home depot and another is a product that they sell. Infomercial. I have no venom... these "studies" cost money to make and they need to sell stuff to stay in business. I don't think that they lie, but people need to understand that these are not science. Is the tank away from this whole video different if they said that the Kessil Fuge light grew chaeto with more water in it?

Dr. Holmes-Farley had a nice post of skimmers and metals bound to organics which I wish that I saved a link of. It is true that total organics removed is about 1/3 in total, but these don't enter the N cycle in the same quantity since they have other things bound to them. Nearly all of them get skimmed out since they stick around to get cycled again and again. IIRC, this might have been in a article or thread about Kalk since Kalk is full of impurities that need dealt with. ...ask anybody who turned a skimmer on with copper medication - it all leaves the tank (even one without aragonite for the copper to bind to) in a few days, not just 30%.


+1

BRS is nothing more than a bunch of great salesmen. Not saying that it is good or bad, but always take what they present with a grain of salt and not blindly accept it as gospel. I bet they can sell a chest freezer to an eskimo.

rtparty
09/18/2017, 11:47 AM
Man, if you guys think BRS just pitches and sells in their videos, I'd hate for you to run into a real salesman.

Sure, they present items and talk them up but that hardly counts as a sales pitch to me. I do come from a sales heavy background between retail and phone sales though. Their "sales" pitch wouldn't make it one week in a true sales environment.

ca1ore
09/18/2017, 11:58 AM
I think the videos/experiments that BRS does are useful; just take them with a grain of salt because they fail scientific rigor on most fronts. No better no worse than an experiment you or I might run.

d0ughb0y
09/18/2017, 12:21 PM
no offense meant to salespeople.
just an age old adage, caveat emptor.

going back to original topic. one or the other or both will work if done right. so I guess all answers are correct.

der_wille_zur_macht
09/18/2017, 06:00 PM
Man, if you guys think BRS just pitches and sells in their videos, I'd hate for you to run into a real salesman.

Sure, they present items and talk them up but that hardly counts as a sales pitch to me. I do come from a sales heavy background between retail and phone sales though. Their "sales" pitch wouldn't make it one week in a true sales environment.

As a professional salesperson, I'd assume you're aware that there are multiple types of pitches, from the high pressure style you're talking about to a lower-pressure, more subtle approach disguised as an attempt at giving advice, which is what I think the person you quoted was clearly hinting at.

jda
09/18/2017, 06:17 PM
Some interesting articles here..
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/rs/feature/index.php
going along with this default reading material..
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php

You should stop posting articles. If there is no video, nobody will bother to learn about it...especially if there is math and charts and stuff. :)

These are not salespeople. It would be better if they were - everybody understands them. They disguise themselves as your friends and tell you only part of the truth. I explained to a guy the other day that there is anoxic bacteria in the tank that converts NO3 to N gas - he sent me a PM offering thanks for something that he did not know in two years of reefing and literally asked me why BRS did not make a video about it. I wrote him back and said that patience and bacteria does not sell products and would probably do the exact opposite.

ktown - your skimmer and chaeto go after different things. Having Chaeto does not have any affect whatsoever on your skimmer. None. If you skimmer does not work, then it is for other reasons. Thanks for letting me know that I am in the wrong hobby, though.

rtparty
09/18/2017, 06:50 PM
If you see the info provided in BRS's videos as a sales pitch, that's truly on you.

I look at the info provided and make my own decisions. Of course, that isn't just for this hobby though. I tell every salesman I deal with it's their job to not screw up the deal, because I've already made my mind up.

So if you're easily persuaded or sold, I can see how some information can seem like a sales pitch.

jda
09/18/2017, 07:10 PM
The people who know the least are the ones most easily persuaded and sold... and they need the whole truth more than anybody else. It is all too easy to say this to somebody who knows what they are doing already and wash your hands clean while the unknowing don't learn any more about what they do not know.

der_wille_zur_macht
09/18/2017, 08:16 PM
If you see the info provided in BRS's videos as a sales pitch, that's truly on you.

I look at the info provided and make my own decisions. Of course, that isn't just for this hobby though. I tell every salesman I deal with it's their job to not screw up the deal, because I've already made my mind up.

So if you're easily persuaded or sold, I can see how some information can seem like a sales pitch.

I'm not taking sides with respect to BRS. I'm just pointing out that there are more than one type of sales pitch. In other words, just because an informational video doesn't fit the profile you've experienced in your career doesn't mean it's not a sales pitch. Some people get turned off by hard sells and pushy salesmen, hence some organizations take softer approaches and/or hide sales pitches inside informational sharing activities, like these videos.

In the end, BRS is a business. EVERYTHING they do, directly or indirectly, is a sales pitch. They're not sharing info because they're nice, they're doing it to help them stay in business. By getting people to buy things. Hence, it's a sales pitch.

ktownhero
09/19/2017, 09:33 AM
no offense meant to salespeople.
just an age old adage, caveat emptor.

Oh no, you can't just walk away from these crazy claims. Those BRS videos are extraordinarily useful and to claim they are a "sales" pitch in disguise is disingenuous at best. Did you even watch it? And are you guys implying that they *shouldn't* include the best available "fuge" light on the market in their FUGE test??? If anything, that video showed that the Kessil light *isn't* worth it -- as their results clearly demonstrated that a $20 plant bulb on Amazon works exceptionally well. Heck, even a clamp-on bulb worked extremely well.

I don't mean to harp on you, but these posts sit around for a long time and for posterity I think it's important to debunk your wild claims (and jda's). 10 years from now, anyone that reads what you guys wrote in here and uses it to dismiss these videos is getting bad advice, straight up.

mcgyvr
09/19/2017, 10:01 AM
Any informational video published by a company that sells products will potentially be increasing or decreasing sales/improving company awareness and brand recognition/etc.. Intentional or not..Plain and simple..

No one here can state with facts if that is the greatest reason for their videos or not..
It would be silly to think they are solely doing that out of the goodness of their hearts though... The fact that their company name/logo,etc.. is used in that video is proof that there is some intentional sales pitch aspect to that..

Their videos while maybe not backed in 100% scientific facts on occasion are presented in a way that is not only educational on some level but also some what entertaining..
When you use entertainment along with education you reach the greatest audience..

Very few want to sit through a scientific article written for ones peers.. Most of them are very dry/boring,etc... as they are there to just state facts (or what they have perceived to be facts) and there is little "entertainment" in them..
Charts/math with little else are boring as can be to most..

The BRS videos are fine... There is a sales aspect to them just as there is an informational aspect to them..
Let it go people..
We all have opinions.. We are all guilty of stating opinions that are not 100% factual..

You might think your skimmer is useless if you have macro algae...
One might think you can't grow corals on LED..
Opinions... humans... welcome to life..

FoxFace Fish
09/19/2017, 10:21 AM
How so?

They both do the same thing in the end: remove nutrients. I'd bet chaeto outperforms a skimmer in this regard even.

Problem with most systems is they don't run enough or large enough refugium sections.

Bulk Reef Supply has some awesome videos on chaeto. I recommend watching them

my question is if that is your thoughts in the first place why even ask the question? They do different things you can not really compare them... yes they both remove waste but in different ways. That is like saying a Orange and a Pineapple are the same because they are both fruits.
Also most sumps actually have decent sized Refugium sections I know mine did take up at least 35-45% of my sump

Also how on earth do we go from the functions of Cheeto and Skimmers to sales pitches and Online tested with skewed result :lmao::lmao::lmao:

And no I do not mean to hate

reefgeezer
09/19/2017, 11:11 AM
Excessive dissolved organics are a potential problem in and of themselves in some systems. These systems are usually newer ones lacking a dense population of mature corals, sponges, and other organisms that consume dissolved organics. For example, IME, cyanobacteria and possibly dino's are often associated with elevated dissolved organic levels. These organisms can use the N & P bound in the organics and get out of hand quickly when the conditions are right... even when N&P testing shows low or even nonexistent levels.

I believe both a skimmer to limit the dissolved organic levels and some inorganic N & P binding using (turf or macro) algae are desirable. If forced to use only one I'd choose a quality skimmer unless the system was very mature.

mcgyvr
09/19/2017, 11:25 AM
^^ yep..
Forget skimmers.. forget algae reactors...
Just add more corals.. ;)
Let them suck it up..

d0ughb0y
09/19/2017, 12:04 PM
Oh no, you can't just walk away from these crazy claims. Those BRS videos are extraordinarily useful and to claim they are a "sales" pitch in disguise is disingenuous at best. Did you even watch it? And are you guys implying that they *shouldn't* include the best available "fuge" light on the market in their FUGE test??? If anything, that video showed that the Kessil light *isn't* worth it -- as their results clearly demonstrated that a $20 plant bulb on Amazon works exceptionally well. Heck, even a clamp-on bulb worked extremely well.

I don't mean to harp on you, but these posts sit around for a long time and for posterity I think it's important to debunk your wild claims (and jda's). 10 years from now, anyone that reads what you guys wrote in here and uses it to dismiss these videos is getting bad advice, straight up.

^^^ lmao

it works since you believed everything. lol.

greaps
09/19/2017, 12:33 PM
BRS is becoming a true leader in our hobby and I think it upsets some who wish it to not be a big retail store doing so.

FoxFace Fish
09/19/2017, 12:44 PM
^^^ lmao

it works since you believed everything. lol.


And so we open another can of worms :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Scurvy Dawg
09/19/2017, 01:59 PM
I think the videos/experiments that BRS does are useful; just take them with a grain of salt because they fail scientific rigor on most fronts. No better no worse than an experiment you or I might run.

I think that is the point with the BRS videos. They do low level experiments that most of us don't have the time or resources to devote to. I don't think they have ever claimed that they were conducting high level scientific experiments. Most of them are geared to your average everyday reefer.

Sure BRS is in the sales business, but I have never felt that their videos are there to solely sell a product.

ktownhero
09/19/2017, 02:24 PM
^^^ lmao

it works since you believed everything. lol.

So you're claiming that the results are faked? Are your initials DJT? lol.

Provide evidence, then there's something to talk about. But if all you want to do are make baseless claims, then you're not doing anyone a favor. There is absolutely nothing about their experiment that sounds fishy. I'm beginning to wonder if you ever even watched it...

In my own anecdotal experience, I've found that a $12 plant bulb from Amazon does exactly the same thing as they claimed; grows fluffier chaeto and grows it faster than a standard bulb. It's a significant difference.

reefgeezer
09/19/2017, 03:02 PM
^^ yep..
Forget skimmers.. forget algae reactors...
Just add more corals.. ;)
Let them suck it up..

Yea but... you need the skimmer/algae do-hic-ey until at some point you don't. Remove 'em at your own risk or just let 'em run and feed/stock more heavily (my preference). And for those other than Mcgyvr, it's as much the organisms that populate the nooks and crannies or the substrate of mature systems as it is corals, and some corals uptake more organics than others. Your mileage may vary.

der_wille_zur_macht
09/19/2017, 05:29 PM
BRS is becoming a true leader in our hobby and I think it upsets some who wish it to not be a big retail store doing so.

Why is everything so black and white? Who said "sales pitch" is negative?

Is it possible that I might think that BRS are a business and producing (potentially valuable) informational videos as part of their marketing/sales program?

"Sales pitch" doesn't automatically mean something is wrong, or even bad. There are clearly lots of examples of companies (including BRS) using good, truthful information to push products. There are also examples (again, including BRS) of companies using information that is either plain wrong, or misleading at best. In the end though, they're clearly a for-profit business doing this in order to support their business, either directly or indirectly. And yes, that should cause us to pause and consider their business role in what they're presenting. In other words, I agree with what you said in your last post: we should bring any other evidence together when evaluating this (or any) video.

I used to have an entire favorites folder of actual peer reviewed research on light spectrum, intensity, duration, etc and effects on growing marine algae. That was like 10 or 15 years and at least 3 laptops/browsers ago though. I know it's all probably still out there but honestly I can't be bothered to find it. My chaeto grows fine under a $12 plant grow light from amazon. Why on earth anyone would even consider spending 10x that (or more) on a light to grow algae blows my mind, but then again, my mind would be blown on a regular basis at what people spend in this hobby if I really sat down and thought about it.

der_wille_zur_macht
09/19/2017, 05:32 PM
To get back on topic. I find it hard to consider chaeto a "replacement" for a skimmer. That's like asking if you can replace an aircraft carrier with a battleship. Yes, they both float, and if your only concern was that you had to pick one OR the other to cross the ocean you'd get there either way, but they're clearly very different.

der_wille_zur_macht
09/19/2017, 05:38 PM
Excessive dissolved organics are a potential problem in and of themselves in some systems. These systems are usually newer ones lacking a dense population of mature corals, sponges, and other organisms that consume dissolved organics. For example, IME, cyanobacteria and possibly dino's are often associated with elevated dissolved organic levels. These organisms can use the N & P bound in the organics and get out of hand quickly when the conditions are right... even when N&P testing shows low or even nonexistent levels.

I believe both a skimmer to limit the dissolved organic levels and some inorganic N & P binding using (turf or macro) algae are desirable. If forced to use only one I'd choose a quality skimmer unless the system was very mature.

I'd agree with that. I've run systems from scratch with only algae/turf for nutrient export, and I've switched systems over once they were mature. The end result is pretty different. Even for a measure as basic as water clarity - the system with the skimmer (and lower DO, and likely lower free bacteria in the water column, etc) has much clearer water. It's hard to notice if you're used to a tank, but I've found that adding carbon or a skimmer to a tank that's had nothing but macro or turf for nutrient export can burn corals thanks to the sudden increase in light intensity as the water clears up.

ca1ore
09/19/2017, 05:54 PM
Oh no, you can't just walk away from these crazy claims. Those BRS videos are extraordinarily useful and to claim they are a "sales" pitch in disguise is disingenuous at best.

Of course it's a sales pitch - or at least a way to establish BRS as an 'expert', further the brand and sell more stuff (thus, sales pitch). Come on, surely people aren't that naive. And by the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Credibility sells! I just think it's important for folks to understand that these are not scientific studies supported by rigorous testing protocol.

Just answer one question: does BRS to comparison videos on stuff they don't sell? If they don't, then the argument for objectivity takes a hit.

rtparty
09/19/2017, 06:20 PM
Of course it's a sales pitch - or at least a way to establish BRS as an 'expert', further the brand and sell more stuff (thus, sales pitch). Come on, surely people aren't that naive. And by the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Credibility sells! I just think it's important for folks to understand that these are not scientific studies supported by rigorous testing protocol.

Just answer one question: does BRS to comparison videos on stuff they don't sell? If they don't, then the argument for objectivity takes a hit.They did just do the black box LED review because the community as a whole was asking for it. They don't sell them and doesn't like they plan to.

That's where I'll leave that topic and any other BRS related talk.

der_wille_zur_macht
09/19/2017, 06:47 PM
They did just do the black box LED review because the community as a whole was asking for it. They don't sell them and doesn't like they plan to.


No, they don't sell the black boxes, but the entire jist of the video is "yes, you can grow coral with a black box, but if you think it's as good as a $800 name brand light in terms of features or quality, you're sorely mistaken." That's almost word for word from the video, which - yes - I have watched.

Whaddya know, they happen to sell several models of these superior "$800 name brand lights."

Again, there's certainly nothing incorrect or flat our wrong about their video, but it is pretty clearly part of a sales program for a profitable business.

Hitch08
09/19/2017, 07:34 PM
Well, I'll tell you guys my experience with cheato, the BRS video, etc.

I've been having problems with cyano. My wife had some health problems and the tank took a back seat. I wasn't changing water like I needed to. Once I had time to spend on the tank, I did a lot of water changes. The cyano persisted. My nitrates were above 2.0. I am trying to get an ATS, but it's been slow.

I watched the BRS video and decided to try the Kessil H380 Halo II. Well, it certainly grows much more than the $20 bulb from Lowes. No question about it. However, my issue is that it's growing hair algae like crazy. The cheato isn't doing much. Well, hair algae is growing on the cheato. This weekend, I'll pull out the cheato and try to get an idea if it has grown much. I did take some pictures before I started with the Kessil.

My fuge is not large. It's part of my 40g breeder sump. As a result, the light from the Kessil hits the middle section where the return pump is located - which now has a fair amount of hair algae growing on it. There is also hair algae growing on the sides of the sump. I need to get in there and do some clean up.

ca1ore
09/19/2017, 08:14 PM
I bought the H380, though prior to the BRS video ..... that I didn't watch (I don't watch any of them because ultimately I don't personally find them credible). The H380 does grow chaeto like the weed that it is, though I imagine it will grow GHA equally well.

ca1ore
09/19/2017, 08:19 PM
They did just do the black box LED review because the community as a whole was asking for it. They don't sell them and doesn't like they plan to.

That's where I'll leave that topic and any other BRS related talk.

Did they; well I guess that's encouraging. I wouldn't know because I don't ever watch any of them (though I do spend considerable $$ with them). If you find the videos credible, that's fine; equally fine that I do not.

I do agree though that it's a topic fully beaten to death.

rtparty
09/19/2017, 08:51 PM
Well, I'll tell you guys my experience with cheato, the BRS video, etc.

I've been having problems with cyano. My wife had some health problems and the tank took a back seat. I wasn't changing water like I needed to. Once I had time to spend on the tank, I did a lot of water changes. The cyano persisted. My nitrates were above 2.0. I am trying to get an ATS, but it's been slow.

I watched the BRS video and decided to try the Kessil H380 Halo II. Well, it certainly grows much more than the $20 bulb from Lowes. No question about it. However, my issue is that it's growing hair algae like crazy. The cheato isn't doing much. Well, hair algae is growing on the cheato. This weekend, I'll pull out the cheato and try to get an idea if it has grown much. I did take some pictures before I started with the Kessil.

My fuge is not large. It's part of my 40g breeder sump. As a result, the light from the Kessil hits the middle section where the return pump is located - which now has a fair amount of hair algae growing on it. There is also hair algae growing on the sides of the sump. I need to get in there and do some clean up.They go over this exact scenario in multiple videos and they even ran into the same problem at the very beginning. They tore that tank down and started over. The second time around they made sure to remove the hair algae and eventually the chaeto out competed the hair algae.

When I was running chaeto in my sump I used a grow bulb from Amazon. My chaeto grew like crazy for the first two harvests. Then hair algae started creeping in and other stuff was growing in my sump, just like yours. Eventually my chaeto stopped growing (probably due to a lack of nutrients) and my sump was dirty. So I pulled the chaeto, threw it away and cleaned up the sump. Now my sump gets no light and looks much better.

I knew the hair algae was a chance if I pulled my skimmer for a big ball of chaeto and it's one of the main reasons why I won't be going that route.

der_wille_zur_macht
09/19/2017, 09:39 PM
Well, I'll tell you guys my experience with cheato, the BRS video, etc.

I've been having problems with cyano. My wife had some health problems and the tank took a back seat. I wasn't changing water like I needed to. Once I had time to spend on the tank, I did a lot of water changes. The cyano persisted. My nitrates were above 2.0. I am trying to get an ATS, but it's been slow.

I watched the BRS video and decided to try the Kessil H380 Halo II. Well, it certainly grows much more than the $20 bulb from Lowes. No question about it. However, my issue is that it's growing hair algae like crazy. The cheato isn't doing much. Well, hair algae is growing on the cheato. This weekend, I'll pull out the cheato and try to get an idea if it has grown much. I did take some pictures before I started with the Kessil.

My fuge is not large. It's part of my 40g breeder sump. As a result, the light from the Kessil hits the middle section where the return pump is located - which now has a fair amount of hair algae growing on it. There is also hair algae growing on the sides of the sump. I need to get in there and do some clean up.

Harvest the hair algae. If the chaeto eventually takes off, great. If not, no problem. Your ultimate goal is to bind nutrients, it doesn't matter what species is doing that. When different varieties of algae are present in a given environment, the one that wins is by definition the one you want. Sometimes you have to do a mass harvest or a big reset, but in general, competition will naturally select in your favor.

NS Mike D
09/20/2017, 02:25 AM
skimmer v cheato

fwiw, this post is from the sponge thread posted by TimFish

"Yes, corals are grabbing whatever they can, both organic and inorganic and we need to think in terms of total notrogen, organic and inorgainc, and total phosphate, organic and inorganic. Not just nitrate and PO4. What we are learning is the microbial life is far more complex than we though even just a few years ago. A good place to start to learn more about the microbial roles with corals is Forest Rohwer's book "Coral reefs in the Microbial Seas". "


the test kits aren't sufficient to tell us the total nitrogen and phosphates in our tanks, nor do we know enough to make conclusions about what is the right level. We can, however, use them to give us a general idea about the N&P in our tanks to validate what our eyes are telling us (coral health and algae/cyano growth)


so let's go back to the beginning. Skimmers and cheato take out different things. And while we tend to think they will result in the same end game, removing N&P, it's not that simple.

Skimmers however are not as selective as we'd like and we end up dosing some of the stuff they pull out.

Cheato on the other hand will add back the organics the corals desire.


Recognizing I don't know enough, I am comfortable for now concluding that my chaeto is complimenting my skimmer so it's not an either or situation, and that in the long run, I would love to see the tank mature in a way that I rely less on the skimmer and eventually not need it.

HippieSmell
09/28/2017, 11:11 PM
It is true that most function poorly because they are not maintained well, but if you think that BRS kept those tanks pristine as a hobby and not as a job, or that you can do the same for years and years, then you might be really surprised. Again, none of this is impossible, but I cannot stress enough that it is real work. Most think that it is awesome for a few months while their small ball ramps up and everything is clean, tells everybody on the internet how easy it is and then never follow up when real life sets in a few months later and it all stops or they got a part-time job as an aquatic gardener.

I think that you can totally do this, just be realistic about the time commitment and step up your water changes because organic export is still important for reasons other than N and P.
I've kept chaeto for a decade. For a while I had a Rubbermaid sump full of it; easily 40 gallons worth. I don't know what your routine is, but maintaining chaeto is the easiest thing I do. It's a lot easier than cleaning my skimmer.

ktownhero
09/29/2017, 07:08 AM
No, they don't sell the black boxes, but the entire jist of the video is "yes, you can grow coral with a black box, but if you think it's as good as a $800 name brand light in terms of features or quality, you're sorely mistaken." That's almost word for word from the video, which - yes - I have watched.

Whaddya know, they happen to sell several models of these superior "$800 name brand lights."

Again, there's certainly nothing incorrect or flat our wrong about their video, but it is pretty clearly part of a sales program for a profitable business.

I don't know what your point in all of this is. A prior post you tried to claim that you weren't being negative, but in this post it's clear you are. You keep trying to walk back from your implication that these videos are misleading or dishonest... And don't say you weren't, because there's no point in saying any of the things you've said except to imply such.

But none of it makes sense because of course the business that's entire existence was based upon hobbyists selling products that they like sell the best lights available... Lol.

Even so, there was nothing about that video that pushed anyone in either direction. They showed the tradeoffs between 2 lights with a $700 price difference.

Uh, you guys are tiring.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

ktownhero
09/29/2017, 07:10 AM
Of course it's a sales pitch - or at least a way to establish BRS as an 'expert', further the brand and sell more stuff (thus, sales pitch). Come on, surely people aren't that naive. And by the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Credibility sells! I just think it's important for folks to understand that these are not scientific studies supported by rigorous testing protocol.

Just answer one question: does BRS to comparison videos on stuff they don't sell? If they don't, then the argument for objectivity takes a hit.A sales pitch is not establishing yourself as an expert to hopefully sell more stuff. A sales pitch is specifically pitching a product to attempt to increase its sales. Demonstrating that a $100 light does rather well against an $800 Radion and that a $20 plant bulb produces nearly identical results to a $300 Kessil Fuge light is not a "sales pitch".

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

reefgeezer
09/29/2017, 07:26 AM
I can't say I've watched a lot of BRS videos, but I do buy stuff from them... too much stuff! Sales people have used things like the BRS videos forever. Why shouldn't BRS? The few minutes of video I have watched didn't seem to give bad or false information. That's kinda uncommon in the aquarium hobby sector. Buyer beware.

FoxFace Fish
09/29/2017, 09:12 AM
Just let this thread die!!!! :debi::lmao::debi:

smatter
09/29/2017, 09:57 AM
I don't like that the BRS guy wears his baseball cap indoors.

rtparty
09/29/2017, 10:38 AM
Just let this thread die!!!! :debi::lmao::debi:Why? Because you don't agree with points that were made?

There is some really good info in here when you wade through the crap

HippieSmell
09/29/2017, 04:02 PM
I don't like that the BRS guy wears his baseball cap indoors.
I know, right? There's no formality any more. Men used to wear suits while recording YouTube videos.

der_wille_zur_macht
09/29/2017, 07:38 PM
I don't know what your point in all of this is. A prior post you tried to claim that you weren't being negative, but in this post it's clear you are. You keep trying to walk back from your implication that these videos are misleading or dishonest... And don't say you weren't, because there's no point in saying any of the things you've said except to imply such.

But none of it makes sense because of course the business that's entire existence was based upon hobbyists selling products that they like sell the best lights available... Lol.

Even so, there was nothing about that video that pushed anyone in either direction. They showed the tradeoffs between 2 lights with a $700 price difference.

Uh, you guys are tiring.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

I don't have anything to add here except that it seems clear you're glossing over and not understanding anything I post. I started to write another reply but I realized it read just like what I wrote earlier. Look back above - you seem to be stuck on painting this in black and white. I never said or implied anything was misleading or dishonest. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by repeatedly fabricating that.

And - you think we are tiring? Bud, you're the one who dug the thread back up to quote something I wrote 10 days ago!

edsreef
09/29/2017, 07:49 PM
I'll keep my skimmer along with a little chaeto!

Psychomantix
09/29/2017, 08:13 PM
Just let this thread die!!!! :debi::lmao::debi:

This thread will never DIEEEE.
Muawhahahahaahah!!!!!!!
:wavehand:

smatter
10/02/2017, 08:06 AM
:lmao:I know, right? There's no formality any more. Men used to wear suits while recording YouTube videos.