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View Full Version : Current prevailing best overflow for 135RR (herbie & BA)


Bodai
09/30/2017, 09:58 PM
Hello all,

I have spent a fair bit of time reading through the threads about herbie and bean animal overflows.

Like many others, I have a 135 gallon tank with dual megaflows. The solution explained in this youtube video seems very good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhAp6GFNz8

I am using a basement sump with an Iwaki 55RLT, I estimate my flow will be just over 800GPH total. This is faster than what the original durso is rated for (600GPH), but probably well within herbie full-siphon capability, although I don't see too many posts on how much that can actually handle. But basically, if I lost one overflow on one side, the surviving one might not handle it... I don't know, looks as though the durso would handle it but maybe "flush"... Going with TWO herbies as in the video seems like it might be enough... should I just do that and declare victory?

Alternatively of course I have seen the talk of using 3 of the 4 holes across the two weirs to do bean animal, and the 4th as a return, with some question as to if it still works split across two weirs. I am thinking if you did that, maybe you would put the full siphon and the dry emergency in one weir, then the 2nd stage and return in the 2nd one, so they both had some flow. But I have not seen many examples of people doing this exactly.

I have also not seen say, putting four durso's in, using all four holes. Probably that would be loud I guess.

One other option I was considering was this:
- Add two external overflows, and hang them behind the existing weirs, and put their U-shaped siphons into the existing weirs so that they are not seen in the display tank. These would be the type capable of roughly 600GPH each or perhaps I could get a bit more, the overflows themselves could use either herbie or bean animal.
- The two overflows become the "primary" path back to the sump
- Then, in the existing weir, one pipe becomes the "dry emergency" and the other is the return... or hell, go over the side and have two dry emergencies (for a total of four of them). Or maybe redundant return pump.
- The U-shaped siphon tubes could go deeply into the tank weirs so they are unlikely to ever break siphon, you could also have a weir in the overflow box between those siphon tubes and the one's in the box.

Hoping to get some advice on this

For the piping to the basement, I would have four drain pipes:
- one each for the full siphons
- one that combines the "stage twos"
- one that combines the "dry emergencies"
- And I could use all flex PVC so that you could run a brush through them from time to time.

-JCL

mcgyvr
10/01/2017, 08:54 AM
You must be a new user and posted an external link.. As such this site has jailed your post until a moderator approves it..
Usually 24 hours or less..
We can't see your post only the title..

A BA is always better than a herbie which is better than a durso

Bodai
10/01/2017, 10:22 AM
OK, sorry, here it is without the link. Yes, I am new, and I realize the BA is at the top, just wanted to share my particular take...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello all,

I have spent a fair bit of time reading through the threads about herbie and bean animal overflows.

Like many others, I have a 135 gallon tank with dual megaflows. The solution explained in this youtube video seems very good:
Youtube video "How to turn a mega flow into a full siphon."

I am using a basement sump with an Iwaki 55RLT, I estimate my flow will be just over 800GPH total. This is faster than what the original durso is rated for (600GPH), but probably well within herbie full-siphon capability, although I don't see too many posts on how much that can actually handle. But basically, if I lost one overflow on one side, the surviving one might not handle it... I don't know, looks as though the durso would handle it but maybe "flush"... Going with TWO herbies as in the video seems like it might be enough... should I just do that and declare victory?

Alternatively of course I have seen the talk of using 3 of the 4 holes across the two weirs to do bean animal, and the 4th as a return, with some question as to if it still works split across two weirs. I am thinking if you did that, maybe you would put the full siphon and the dry emergency in one weir, then the 2nd stage and return in the 2nd one, so they both had some flow. But I have not seen many examples of people doing this exactly.

I have also not seen say, putting four durso's in, using all four holes. Probably that would be loud I guess.

One other option I was considering was this:
- Add two external overflows, and hang them behind the existing weirs, and put their U-shaped siphons into the existing weirs so that they are not seen in the display tank. These would be the type capable of roughly 600GPH each or perhaps I could get a bit more, the overflows themselves could use either herbie or bean animal.
- The two overflows become the "primary" path back to the sump
- Then, in the existing weir, one pipe becomes the "dry emergency" and the other is the return... or hell, go over the side and have two dry emergencies (for a total of four of them). Or maybe redundant return pump.
- The U-shaped siphon tubes could go deeply into the tank weirs so they are unlikely to ever break siphon, you could also have a weir in the overflow box between those siphon tubes and the one's in the box.

Hoping to get some advice on this

For the piping to the basement, I would have four drain pipes:
- one each for the full siphons
- one that combines the "stage twos"
- one that combines the "dry emergencies"
- And I could use all flex PVC so that you could run a brush through them from time to time.

-JCL

Vinny Kreyling
10/01/2017, 06:10 PM
U shaped tubes deep in the weir would just siphon until they break siphon on their own.

Bodai
10/01/2017, 10:21 PM
U shaped tubes deep in the weir would just siphon until they break siphon on their own.

They should not if they are below the emergency drains, in this case well below, and I am thinking of having 3 or 4 1" "U" pipes, all of them full-siphon, so they should always stay ahead of the "herbie" full siphon in the box, and the water level in the box will be the same as in the internal weir / tank.

The water level in both the internal weir and the external box should not go below the level of the weir in the external box.

That is, if I am correct in my design, thinking about what happens when you turn the pump off, lose power, etc.

Here is a diagram:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6VPiRjE09HbUF9tOVp4cVd2Nmc/view?usp=sharing

-JCL

Bodai
10/01/2017, 10:24 PM
Seem to be having trouble with links here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6VPiRjE09HbUF9tOVp4cVd2Nmc

Bodai
10/01/2017, 10:37 PM
Oh, I also finally found some flow estimates that someone did here:
http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/#bestpractices in the grey box on the right about half way down
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/BulkheadFloRateArt.htm a link to what they are referencing.

So, they list the following:
- A 1" full siphon pipe can hit about 1500GPH
- A 1" pipe non-siphon is only 330GPH

If this is true, then I should have at least 2 of the U-shaped tubes in each box to get 1500GPH, plus one for safety, so 3000GPH capability.

Then, the herbie full siphon in the external box also has 1500GPH capacity, and would be dialed down with the valve below that to something matching my pump output, which hopefully will be about 800GPH.

They don't give an estimate for durso's, but once the secondary went full siphon, it should be able to hit those numbers as well.

But, this brings me to the dry emergencies. If the 330GPH number if correct, and I had a total failure of my overflow boxes, two of them would only handle 660GPH, and that would be using both weir's in the tank.

So, based on this, I should probably have all four holes as dry emergencies, with a combined capability of about 1300GPH, and run the returns over the top.

-JCL

Vinny Kreyling
10/02/2017, 09:19 AM
Sorry - Senior Moment -
You are correct if you use the external boxes.
As far as 1500GPH - the pipe size below the box needs to be able to handle @ least that, or it will be the determining factor for flow. I made mine larger than 1" when I did that.
Personally my opinion is you are overthinking this for 800 GPH, 2 internal boxes will do that easily.

ca1ore
10/02/2017, 12:05 PM
I would suggest that the chap who made that video has less than a complete grasp of what he speaks, or in this case videos. He ends up with a dual herbie, which is fine, though confuses things at the start with terms like durso and BA. Using the larger bulkhead as siphon and smaller as open channel is not wise; do it the other way around.

I also do not believe that it is possible to do a properly functioning bean animal drain in two physically separated volumes of water - I don't see how the physics works. If it were me, I'd rip out the dual overflows and do a ghost style.

Bodai
10/02/2017, 12:22 PM
Sorry - Senior Moment -
You are correct if you use the external boxes.
As far as 1500GPH - the pipe size below the box needs to be able to handle @ least that, or it will be the determining factor for flow. I made mine larger than 1" when I did that.
Personally my opinion is you are overthinking this for 800 GPH, 2 internal boxes will do that easily.

I am definitely over-thinking this, it is what I do ;-)

I am happy that even one overflow with a full siphon will handle almost twice the flow rate I want to hit. And since I have two of them, that might be enough redundancy.

Although I will have the valve closed down pretty far on the two siphons to keep them balanced, because basically if they are each doing about 400GPH, that is not very much at all compared to what they are capable of.

So, if one of them clogged... the second one would not take the flow. If the two remaining durso's can take the remaining 400GPH or so, then I should be fine.

I am just thinking that they came up with the beananimal solution for a reason, that the herbie was not enough. If in my case I don't need it and herbie will be enough for my use case, then OK.

Bodai
10/02/2017, 12:33 PM
I would suggest that the chap who made that video has less than a complete grasp of what he speaks, or in this case videos. He ends up with a dual herbie, which is fine, though confuses things at the start with terms like durso and BA. Using the larger bulkhead as siphon and smaller as open channel is not wise; do it the other way around.

Yup, I agree with that.

I also do not believe that it is possible to do a properly functioning bean animal drain in two physically separated volumes of water - I don't see how the physics works. If it were me, I'd rip out the dual overflows and do a ghost style.

One variation I was thinking is, you *could* connect the two internal overflow weirs together, either using some siphon tubes over the back, or, some pipes going horizontally between them toward the back bottom of the tank, say a couple of 1" pipes (or both). They could double as a shelf.

Then the two weirs would act as one, and you would have four holes to play with to do BA. Maybe use the 4th for return, or have two dry emergency drains. This should also keep water turnover good in both weirs.

What is ghost style?

ca1ore
10/02/2017, 12:44 PM
One variation I was thinking is, you *could* connect the two internal overflow weirs together, either using some siphon tubes over the back, or, some pipes going horizontally between them toward the back bottom of the tank, say a couple of 1" pipes (or both). They could double as a shelf. Then the two weirs would act as one, and you would have four holes to play with to do BA. Maybe use the 4th for return, or have two dry emergency drains. This should also keep water turnover good in both weirs.

Yes, I think that could work - I toyed with doing that on my current 265 by drilling additional holes in the rear panel within the weir and connecting a horizontal pipe behind the tank. just seemed like a lot of work :(

What is ghost style?

Ah, sorry, that was unclear. I was referring to the newer style overflows that at least one manufacturer refers to as a ghost overflow. Low profile skim box inside the tank and a larger external box behind.

Bodai
10/02/2017, 01:56 PM
OK, I think I can do one better here.

Take a look at this:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6VPiRjE09HbZFkzSVFkR283cDA

So, this has some plumbing, but I think still counts as quite simple. Uses all four bulkheads for flow, and just brings them to a box in the back of the tank at the same level.

I could use larger than 1" pipe on the beananimal part if I wanted to, especially for the dry emergency maybe.

I could locate the box just about anywhere, such as near one side so that it is easier to see for adjustment.

What do you think?

ca1ore
10/02/2017, 02:40 PM
That could work. Good 'out of the box' thinking; or in this case, in the box thinking :lol: Don't think you'd need or want the weir inside the external box though. Also, those horizontal runs would act as settling traps though so you'd have to make sure to clear them out periodically.

Bodai
10/02/2017, 05:02 PM
Is this better?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6VPiRjE09HbWUdvdDF3LURhTE0

- I changed to single 1-1/2" plumbing and joined it together
- Much harder to clog or jam larger pipe, even higher capacity
- No horizontal runs
- Ample clean-outs, the hole thing could be cleaned out without removing or replacing it
- Bonus points if I used some transparent PVC pipe...
- No more weir...

ca1ore
10/03/2017, 02:38 PM
Better!

Bodai
10/03/2017, 11:43 PM
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6VPiRjE09HbdjdTVTdCaHQ2Qmc

Trying to refine it down as simple as I can before building it.

-Bodai