New and need some help

[JDT1234]

Hello everyone.

I am two years or so new to this and I have something going on I just can't get a handle on.

I try and do all the right things but when it comes to keeping fish I am missing something.

So for about a 1.5 years I have been adding fish. They seem to stay alive for a month or so and just die off. Seem perfectly healthy the day before they die.

The thing that I can't figure out is there are 4 fish that don't die and they have been in the tank for probably a year now. A Yellow Tang, Maroon Clown and a couple Damsels. They keep on going while I've gone through three Sailfins, two Yellow Eyed Tangs and two Fox faces. There are probably some more I don't recall.

If my water was bad in regards to high Ammonia or anything else that would harm fish why would those four still thrive?? Can't figure it out.

Corals are doing fine. Seeing growth on most, sometimes one dies off for whatever reason but never sent up any red flags since the majority were doing good.

Water changes weekly ranging from 5-15 gallons. Dosing CA and AK daily, MG when needed. Feed Nori twice a week, misis once a week.

120 gallon tall, 55 gallon sump. Fish listed above plus cleanup crew consisting of shrimps (5), blue and red hermits (not sure how many), serpent stars (2), sand sifting star, and a red sea star......not much in the tank.

Here is a link to a test done today showing everything seems to be within the parameters. I use API for the Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite and PH. CA, AK and MG I use Red Sea and those results are also within the stated parameters.....https://www.dropbox.com/s/5jzkhb3p4mv2lp6/API%20Test%2012%3A28.jpg?dl=0

I'm a diligent tank owner and have over come other obstacles but this one has be stumped. Here is a link to a little movie showing the tank. Maybe you can see something I am missing......https://www.dropbox.com/s/o4lur12ok5uz7mg/File%20Dec%2028%2C%204%2031%2059%20PM.mov?dl=0

Thank you in advance for any help you can lend.

Jeff

[OldReefGuy]

what kind of Damsels? and how big?

[Uncle99]

Clowns and damsels are very hardy fish and can tolerate parameter swings better.
Yellow tangs are hardy fish and quite territorial.
So the possibilities are:
Temperature, an anemone in the tank, outright stress from yellow tang, red legged hermits are famous for striking at resting fish, a serpent star might take a shot as well.
Your tank looks fine to me good job...when you say good for a month up to the day they die what does their death look like.....body intact.....any white spots....rub marks.....mossy like substance on the body....is all colour gone?

[JDT1234]

what kind of Damsels? and how big?

Three spot Domino Damsel. About an inch. Not aggressive....yet.

[Rover88]

When they died, what happened? Did you find them floating face up? Did you see them deteriorating over time? Signs of being picked on? Were they eating well up until they died?

[JDT1234]

what kind of Damsels? and how big?

Clowns and damsels are very hardy fish and can tolerate parameter swings better.
Yellow tangs are hardy fish and quite territorial.
So the possibilities are:
Temperature, an anemone in the tank, outright stress from yellow tang, red legged hermits are famous for striking at resting fish, a serpent star might take a shot as well.
Your tank looks fine to me good job...when you say good for a month up to the day they die what does their death look like.....body intact.....any white spots....rub marks.....mossy like substance on the body....is all colour gone?

I have thought about the territorial thing believe me. Figured out when starting to add fish that the tangs killed the tangs, the clowns killed the clowns and then I had two other vicious damsels that killed anything else I tried to introduce. Tore the tank apart to get those blue damsels out.

There are no signs of aggression from any of the fish during the day. Have no idea what happens at night.

Always seems to be a month or so before they die. Healthy looking as the day they were introduced. I've watched a couple die, most recently two days ago with the Fox Face. Color was healthy. Did notice towards the end a the fins turning whitish around the ends. Previous was a Yellow Eye Tang found stuck to the wave maker....color looked good. Again healthy looking the night before. Any time a fish dies I immediately test everything and do a water change.

I'm going to throw this out there as a thought since I am grasping for an answer. I think it is a slow process, something the fish are absorbing until it overtakes them. I've got good water movement judging by the corals swaying, and the surface shows good movement as well so I think the oxygen is ok.

My RODI system is fed by the outside garden hose. Do you think it possible that the water coming into the system is somehow contaminated?? They say not to drink the water from a garden hose....but never understood why, but now maybe it would make sense with what is going on.

I have a 44 gallon garbage can the water sits in until I need it. No salt added until I need the water. Can sitting water go "stale" or get contaminated somehow just by sitting?? It is covered and I do not do anything in the garage containing aerosol or sprays. Water does get heated up however since I live in Florida.

Feeling confident my tank is good staying within the parameters, sometimes the AK drops for some reason (and it is not that often) but I keep on it and there has been no correlation between a drop and the death of a fish.

Right now I am really looking hard at how the water gets into the tank. Could be the stars or crabs like you suggest, but these fish that are dying off are 3"-4" so they would make a pretty sizable opponent for these little crabs. Been buying the larger fish thinking they are more likely to a hardier specimen to get so large and would have a better chance at surviving being added to an existing setup.

Thanks,
Jeff

[RobZilla04]

Right off the bat I'd like to inquire about your feeding. What types of food? How much? How often?

If you're not observing aggression, it's less likely stress related. That is if you have sufficient hiding places for them to sleep peacefully.

Have all these fish come from the same store/vendor?

[OldReefGuy]

That 3 spot can be a devil. I had to get rid of my 2" after he killed a bigger power blue, 3 chromis and a gobi. No signs of aggression until feeding time.....

[Fiver]

"Seem perfectly healthy the day before they die."

I know this issue has already been raised, but it sure sounds like tank full of aggressive fish. A maroon clown and a few damsels? Other fish look fine one second and dead the next?

I think if it was a water quality issue your other fish and inverts would also show distress/die off. It's not a fluke that new fish added to an aggressive tank end up dead.

Sorry, and good luck.

[JDT1234]

Right off the bat I'd like to inquire about your feeding. What types of food? How much? How often?

If you're not observing aggression, it's less likely stress related. That is if you have sufficient hiding places for them to sleep peacefully.

Have all these fish come from the same store/vendor?

Plenty of rock for hiding. Only have the four fish plus another one when I try to add.

Fish have come from various vendors. Four different ones in fact.

Feed Nori twice a week and a Mysis block once a week.

Thanks,
Jeff

[TokiHacker]

Plenty of rock for hiding. Only have the four fish plus another one when I try to add.

Fish have come from various vendors. Four different ones in fact.

Feed Nori twice a week and a Mysis block once a week.

Thanks,
Jeff

oh wow... that is not nearly enough... You are looking more for 1 cube a day or half a cube a day and I do nori 3x a week.

that might explain some issues.

[JDT1234]

"Seem perfectly healthy the day before they die."

I know this issue has already been raised, but it sure sounds like tank full of aggressive fish. A maroon clown and a few damsels? Other fish look fine one second and dead the next?

I think if it was a water quality issue your other fish and inverts would also show distress/die off. It's not a fluke that new fish added to an aggressive tank end up dead.

Sorry, and good luck.

Thanks Fiver.

Noted and I hear what you are saying. And I agree in theory if it was a water issue the other four plus the inverts should/would be gone.

No arguments that I guess the fish in my tank may fall into the aggressive category. I will say however there are no outward signs of aggression among the core four as I now call them and the new guy. I don't know how aggressive fish can be during the night but I find it strange it doesn't carry on during the day.

So my thoughts are this boils down to three options:

1) There is some form of aggression during the night.
2) There is something that kills fish I am unable to check for. My tests come back fine.
3) There is something tainting my water supply.

Option 1 seems unlikely since I am not seeing aggression during the day. Plus the fact death is usually a month down the road. Ive seen the clowns and tangs in action and usually within a day or so the target of their aggression is a goner. The fact they are dying a month down the road pushes me towards thinking something is killing them slowly from within.

Option 3 seems unlikely as well since the other four fish and inverts don't die. Perhaps whatever is possibly tainting my water supply has been happening slowly over two years and slow enough for the core four to adapt vs a new fish being dropped into a not so friendly mix.

Option 2 seems plausible (something I cannot test for) and that brings me back to looking at option 3. Water supply and what is delivering the water to the RODI unit.

So I guess for $50 I can buy some hose used for drinking water that would replace my 20 year old garden hose. Take a couple months to change out the water, drop a new fish in and see what happens.

All in all it wouldn't be the end of the world if I only had the four fish in the tank. At the end of the day I only wanted one or two more fish anyways for a total of 5-6 fish.

I was more interested in understanding why this was happening. The hobby is fun and I enjoy it, but man it can be challenging sometimes.

Thanks,
Jeff

[JDT1234]

When they died, what happened? Did you find them floating face up? Did you see them deteriorating over time? Signs of being picked on? Were they eating well up until they died?

Thanks Rover.

Never floating face up. Found one on the powerhead, watched the fox face dying and finally wiggle himself behind the rocks and die.

Some fish were found upon waking up and the clean up crew at work.

All eating well before dying.

No deterioration before dying.

Thanks,
Jeff

[JDT1234]

oh wow... that is not nearly enough... You are looking more for 1 cube a day or half a cube a day and I do nori 3x a week.

that might explain some issues.

I can always feed more. The clown, tang and those damsels are looking very strong and healthy however. It is always the new fish.

Thanks,
Jeff

[JDT1234]

That 3 spot can be a devil. I had to get rid of my 2" after he killed a bigger power blue, 3 chromis and a gobi. No signs of aggression until feeding time.....

Yeah I'm waiting for the day I have to tear the tank down again.

Trying to get them in the net but you know that will never happen.

Jeff

[crawlerman]

I agree with Toki, I would think a cube a day. Especially if you are introducing a new fish into a tank with aggressive fish. Think about it, they are probably slightly malnourished and stressed from being caught, shipped and then thrown into an aggressive tank. They never have the chance to gain anything back.

[RobZilla04]

Plenty of rock for hiding. Only have the four fish plus another one when I try to add.

Fish have come from various vendors. Four different ones in fact.

Feed Nori twice a week and a Mysis block once a week.

Thanks,
Jeff

There is your problem, food. You have healthy dominant fish and when you add a new one, it gets sent to the back of the pecking order. You should be at a cube a day and some nori every other day at a minimum.

[JDT1234]

There is your problem, food. You have healthy dominant fish and when you add a new one, it gets sent to the back of the pecking order. You should be at a cube a day and some nori every other day at a minimum.

I hope it is that simple.

See, being still somewhat new I was trying to walk that fine line of enough food and to much food.

Thinking back most of the fish that died were a little sketchy at getting in there for some food. However the most recent Fox Face had no problem pushing out the tang and getting his share.

Could be the Fox Face was ill when he arrived. The malnourishment and the one month window before dying would make sense if the fish had indeed been starved.

So the consensus of the thread is malnourishment and aggression.

I will feed more starting now and even more when a new fish is added, and tear down the tank to get those Domino Damsels out. Might as well do it now before they mature and really take the tank over.....from what I've been told here and what I have read it is just a matter of time before the havoc begins.

I am also going to ditch the 20 year old garden hose and replace it with hose suitable for drinking water. I realize no one is on board with that idea it could be my water coming into the RODI system but it won't hurt.

The reason I am stuck on that idea is if you are old enough to remember back say 20 years ago or so when the bottle water craze hit people were supposedly getting sick. The experts claim people were getting cancer from the plastic bottle degrading in the heat and some sort of chemical was leaching off and causing the illness.

Far fetched maybe, but why not a 20 year old garden hose degrading and leaching whatever into my water supply. Doesn't hurt to try.

I'll post in a couple months and let you all know how things worked out.

Thank you all for the insights.

Jeff

[Cancun]

Hi....out of curiosity are you getting all your fish from the same supplier? Secondly how are you acclimating them?

[JDT1234]

Hi....out of curiosity are you getting all your fish from the same supplier? Secondly how are you acclimating them?

Hi Cancun.

Got my fish from four different suppliers.

I acclimate them like they do, sit the bag in the water for a half hour and put them in.

I realize there is a more involved method of acclimating livestock, but I figure if the supplier doesn't take the time to do the more involved method when they arrive to him then the damage (if any)
has already been done.

So a follow up question to your question so I have a better understanding...if a fish was going to be affected adversely by not being acclimated correctly, would it appear to be healthy for a month or so before dying or die relatively fast do to the shock?

Thanks,
Jeff

[JDT1234]

Just an update and another question.

Tore the tank down and captured the two Domino Damsels that were in thought to be aggressors towards the new tank mates. If they weren't down the road as they matured probably would have been an issue anyways....so they are gone.

Not enough food was a theory and actually admittedly probably the most accurate so I am now feeding every other day either mysis or nori.

Back to a 15 gallon per week water change.

Went out three weeks ago and bought 6 Chromis. Lost four in a week. But I changed something I was doing and two are still alive and seem well.

I'm wondering if how I was dosing caused the new fish to die off? I was dosing directly into DT. Read a post were he was dosing the Alkilinty into the overflow box and it got suck down and through the sump and the Calcium into the sump.

Started doing that and the remaining Chromis are still alive.

Removing the damsels and feeding more as suggested were things that needed to be done, but could the way I was dosing also have played a part in my problem?

[JDT1234]

Bump

[homer1475]

I hand dose right into the DT above a PH with no issues. I highly doubt that is your issue.

[JDT1234]

Agreed. Still trying to cover all angles of my issue.

[mitch91175]

Just a shot in the dark but have you check to see if any of you equipment is adding an voltage to the water? You would know once you touched the water you would get a slight shock. Just a shot in the dark, but something to check.

[JDT1234]

Just a shot in the dark but have you check to see if any of you equipment is adding an voltage to the water? You would know once you touched the water you would get a slight shock. Just a shot in the dark, but something to check.

Thanks for the idea....not getting any shocks so no voltage.

[JDT1234]

Lost another Chromis. Down to one clown, one tang and the remaining Chromis out of six I purchased three weeks ago. The clown and yellow tang are the first two I put in the tank.

Ammonia has spiked due to what I believe we're the increased feelings and all the fish dying so fast.

Phosphates have increased do to the GHA now starting to grow no doubt do to the extra feedings. My test kit reads zero so the phosphate is being absorbed in the GHA and probably into the Pukani rocks. Something I have not had since starting up two years ago but from what I have read phosphates probably isn't what is killing the fish so that is a separate issue I will deal with.

Totally at a loss for why all new fish are dying. Going to do a total water transfusion over the next few days. I've done the forums recommendations about increased feedings and removing the damsels......it has to be something to do with the water.

One suggestion was stray electricity which it doesn't appear to be so, but what about ideas outside the box like that??

I use RO/DI stored in a 44 gallon Brute can.

Thank you for your guidance.