With nitrates running high, is a 37% water change too much?

[LouB]

Hey fellow reefers...I have nitrates running high in my tank - somewhere between 40 & 80 ppm.

It started i believe when I had ich appear 2 weeks ago. I got bad advice I think which was to remove the carbon from my fluval 306, disable the protein skimmer, turn up the heat to 86 degrees and dose with Kick Ich. Before I implemented this advice, I did a 37% water change (20 g into my 54g tank).

I implemented the advice.

I immediately lost my royal gramma and the herms set upon it. Then I lost 1 cardinal which I was able to remove. I next lost a juvenile clown which I was able to remove half of and finally I lost my second cardinal which got devoured. With all the death and dying of the fish, I'm assuming ammonia and nitrites went through the roof? Also, I think turning up the temp to 86 was a bad mistake as I started killing the coraline algae on my live rock - also contribute to ammonia and nitrites?

To the point, as stated above I now have nitrates testing out at either 40 or 80 ppms.

I was talking to my LFS and said I wanted to do the 37% water change, and they recommended against it. I was surprised by this as I thought I've read here that the bulk of the biological filter happens in the live rock. Do you guys think such water changes are too extreme and will shock my tank? With nitrates running so high, I'm afraid 10% water changes (10g) just won't be effective enough to remove excess nitrates fast enough.

Thoughts? Thanks in advance!

[reef cuber]

I would never assume perimeters, always test them to be sure. Though lots of deaths would make sense it would rise.

Did you dose per the manufacturer instructions and did they instruct you to increase heat? Heat may have been the issue, never take the LFS advice at face value, read instructions too. You are supposed to remove carbon and other equipment per the manufacturers instructions. I know you used to have to increase heat for fresh water tanks.

It could be that you were too late getting treatment started. There are a ton of variables. I feel for you losing so much. I've been through it myself.

[LouB]

Thanks for the nice though Cuber though what do you mean by "never assume perimeters"? I tested with my API kit...I have trouble with red/green color though and their test charts are kind of hard to read in any event...

[LouB]

To your point about LFS advice...I actually spoke to Don Miller of Ruby Reef and he said that 86 was too high...a different LFS said never to raise water temp.

In any event, do you think a 37% water change is too much of a shocker even though I thought most of bio filter happens on the rocks?

[billdogg]

I wouldn't hesitate to do a 50%+ water change assuming that your levels are actually out of line. If you don't have test kits you need to get them.

Was it your LFS that sold you the snake oil - oops - I mean kick ich, and told you to raise the temp? If so, run from that LFS and never go back. That advice was less than helpful. Unless, of course, you are in the business of selling useless products and fish tat are doomed to die.

There is a great sticky at the top of this forum all about Ich and how to cure it. There is NO REEF SAFE WAY to rid your tank of Ich with any fish still in it. Period. TTM is my go-to, and in any case, your DT will have to remain fallow (fishless) for a minimum of 72 days.

Read the sticky and then post here with any other questions.

hth!

[ClownNut]

bigger water change = remove more nutrient.
if you have 10PPM in water, want to bring it down to 0 PPM (just water no rock or sand)
doing a
100% WC = 1 time
50% WC =3 times
10% WC = 30 times
something around those number.

98% of the bacteria are live on your LR, only 2% are free floating. so do as big a water change as you want, as long as heated to the same temp and salinity as your display tank.
higher temp = less oxygen in water, turn off skimmer = less oxygen in water. so that would stress the fish out even more.

[LouB]

Hey Billdogg...yeah I they sold me the kick ich and told me to raise temp to 86. You gave great feedback on my other post about ich...I am going to set up a QT and do the fallow thing for 90 days.

I do have test kits...used api nitrate test kit bu as I said above..i have a red/green color deficiency and i think their color charts suck anyway...hard to read...it's def iether 40 or 80...

So, you see no issue with a big water change...? cool..what about on a weekly basis until nitrates are low? I'm mainly reacting at this point to my corals (green hairy mushroom and leather toadstool) not opening up..

[billdogg]

When I had my good buddy Hannibal, a 4' Undulated Moray in a 150g tank, I did 75-100g water changes every other week without a problem to keep nitrates someplace in the almost testable range. After I put a 120g refugium with 6" sandbed, nitrates went away, but that story is for another day.

As for test kits - You are far from the first person to have troubles with API test kits. At the very least, take a look at the RedSea master kit. My personal preference is for Salifert. They are all quite easy to use (IMO) and have very repeatable results.

As luck would have it, both the leather and the mushrooms are actually happier with a more nutrient rich environment, so try not to stress too much. The mushrooms especially are almost impossible to kill.

[LouB]

Cool thanks dude

[billdogg]

Cool thanks dude



Happy to help!

Keep the questions coming. There are a whole bunch of people on here with lots of great advice and suggestions on how to make things easier.

[hkgar]

Either correct the source or find an export method. I dose carbon

If your NO3 is 50 a 37% water change will only get it to 44 and if the source is not fixed it could very well rais again before you could do another water change.

Assuming no NO3 is added between water changes, it will take 4 37% water changes to get below 10.

The value, as I see it, of water changes is to replace nutrients and other beneficial trace elements and not to reduce anything.

[LouB]

Gary wouldn’t a 37% water change with nitrates at 50 reduce the level of nitrates to 31.5 (50 x .63 = 31.5)?

Also, how do you dose carbon and how does this affect the source of nitrates? How do you identify what’s causing the nitrates in the first place, and have you ever vodka dosed? I was thinking about that after reading an article here on it...

[hkgar]

Oops, my bad. I multiplied by .67

Vodka is carbon dosing. Vinegar is also a carbon source. I dose a 70/30 vinegar/vodka mix. If vinegar is used, generally as it is less likely to produce Cyano, it should be used a 8 times the vinegar rate, e.g 1 ml vodka equals .8 ml vinegar.

Feeding the fish creates nitrates and nitrates are the last of the process of fish wast = ammonia, our biological system breaks down the ammonia to nitrites and then to nitrates. That is as low as the bio system can take it so you need to than export NO3 and carbon dosing somehow, i think, converts to to some kind of gas that then can escape.

[LouB]

Gary - someone said vodka dosing creates a lot of gunk and so I (who run a canister filter) would have to really be diligent about cleaning...I already clean the filter every week so I'm not sure if they would suggest I need to do more than that, but does it "create a lot of gunk?" Is it a pretty easy process to manage? Do you do it weekly?

[LouB]

I'm also curious how water changes affect the vodka dosing cycle...? do you start over?

[mcgyvr]

The advice you got from your LFS was crap..
I'd avoid their advice in the future..

You can do a 100% water change if you want.. (obviously provided you move fish or whatever so they stay in water,etc...)

[rjjr1963]

Gary wouldn’t a 37% water change with nitrates at 50 reduce the level of nitrates to 31.5 (50 x .63 = 31.5)?

Also, how do you dose carbon and how does this affect the source of nitrates? How do you identify what’s causing the nitrates in the first place, and have you ever vodka dosed? I was thinking about that after reading an article here on it...

I have a 40 breeder and did a 10 gallon water change this weekend. My nitrates dropped from 20 to 10. My test is color matching so I could be off a bit but I was surprised by the drop.

[Sk8r]

Disabling your skimmer was also not a good thing; the skimmer kept in good form helps with the nitrate problem. If you cannot get it under control with water changes, a stronger skimmer might help.

[mcgyvr]

I got bad advice I think which was to remove the carbon from my fluval 306, disable the protein skimmer..

To be clear.. That is not really bad advice...
That is following the directions for the product you purchased.. Now if that product is good or bad I cannot answer that as I've never used it nor do I know anything about it.. But you followed the directions..

The temp raise may have really been what caused the problems.. Thats pretty warm for sure..

And Nitrate levels of 100+PPM or more in general are not a cause of fish death.. Many people have had those levels or higher in a fish only tank without issue..

So there is really no urgent rush to reduce nitrates.. Just do what you can and maybe avoid that LFS in the future as their information is hit or miss or at least get a second opinion on everything (thats just smart anyways for anything in life)..