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NaClH2ODave
05/06/2018, 07:56 AM
I'm only mixing 1 teaspoon of kalkwasser per gallon of RODI, and using this in my top off container. Even though I mix thoroughly, let this sit overnight, and only siphon off the good stuff, I'm still getting a light layer of "haze" over everything. I also clean my bucket between every mixing.

On several occasions, this has caused my low level ATO sensor to still think it was under water, when in fact, the sump level was an inch or two below it.

I really need the kalk to help with low PH.

Any ideas?

tmz
05/06/2018, 11:46 AM
Sounds like precipitation.

What's the alk and pH in the tank? How much is being dosed at once?

homer1475
05/06/2018, 11:57 AM
Sounds like precipitation.

What's the alk and pH in the tank? How much is being dosed at once?

+1

Never had that issue when I dosed kalk, even at 2tbs per gallon.

NaClH2ODave
05/06/2018, 03:23 PM
Alkalinity is right at 8.0 dKH, pH is usually between 7.7 and 7.8.

Top-off volume is about 3 quarts a day for a 105 gallon DT.

Daddi0
05/06/2018, 04:27 PM
I think you might be over mixing it? Just give it a gentle stir and be done with it.
Cheers! Mark

Daddi0
05/06/2018, 04:31 PM
Also, why are you transferring containers the next day. The more air exposure the more precipitate. I mix it, add it to the ATO, and let it settle for an hour. Never pump out the crap on the bottom and only clean the ATO when it gets nasty.

bertoni
05/06/2018, 04:42 PM
I agree about the gentle stir. The more the mixture is mixed, the more carbon dioxide enters the water column. The carbon dioxide will turn the Kalk back into sand. A quick gentle stir is enough to dissolve the Kalk itself. Anything that takes longer to dissolve, or precipitates immediately, probably is an impurity of some sort. Calcium hydroxide and calcium oxide dissolve very quickly and easily.

NaClH2ODave
05/06/2018, 05:00 PM
I do cover the bucket while sitting over night and don't siphon the bottom inch when transferring to the ATO reservoir, so it sounds like excessive stirring might be the issue.

Thanks for the help - just a quick stir on my next batch!

bertoni
05/06/2018, 05:22 PM
You're welcome. Good luck! If that doesn't solve the problem, there might be some precipitation or impurity issue.

Daddi0
05/06/2018, 05:41 PM
If you ever get to the point that you mix your Kalk with vinegar, the stirring becomes a non-issue.

Daddi0
05/06/2018, 05:52 PM
You have a sensor in your ATO?

saf1
05/06/2018, 07:55 PM
If you ever get to the point that you mix your Kalk with vinegar, the stirring becomes a non-issue.

Just wondering why is that? For some reason I thought they are supposed to be separate. Still looking for that simple dosing for dummies thread. The whole 2 part this, diy that, then bionic 4 part seems a bit confusing for the non science folk (me - who haven't dosed before).

NaClH2ODave
05/06/2018, 08:14 PM
I use a Neptune Apex optical sensor in my reservoir, and their ATK system for my sump which uses two of the same sensors.

I've read where vinegar does help with mixing, but won't it also lower the pH?

Daddi0
05/06/2018, 08:54 PM
Just wondering why is that? For some reason I thought they are supposed to be separate. Still looking for that simple dosing for dummies thread. The whole 2 part this, diy that, then bionic 4 part seems a bit confusing for the non science folk (me - who haven't dosed before).
So I don't really understand the scientific side of it to be honest. I just know that when I mix the kalk and vinegar together I get a complete chemical reaction and the mix is an even 1-1 ratio of calcium and alk. It is cheap and not only do I get calcium and alkalinity, it helps keep my nitrates and phosphates low and it got rid of my gha and cyano.
Cheers! Mark

Daddi0
05/06/2018, 09:01 PM
I use a Neptune Apex optical sensor in my reservoir, and their ATK system for my sump which uses two of the same sensors.

I've read where vinegar does help with mixing, but won't it also lower the pH?
I dont run an Apex. My reservoir just has a tube connected to an AquaLifter that is controlled by 2 switches in the sump.
It does lower the PH a bit but Kalk has a really high PH. Before Kalk my PH was around 8.2 - with Kalk it started to creep up over 8.55 so I started using vinegar. My reef currently gets approx. 1ml per gallon of reef water per day (120ml a day) and this keeps the top side of my PH at approx. 8.4
Cheers! Mark

tmz
05/06/2018, 09:44 PM
Just wondering why is that? For some reason I thought they are supposed to be separate. Still looking for that simple dosing for dummies thread. The whole 2 part this, diy that, then bionic 4 part seems a bit confusing for the non science folk (me - who haven't dosed before).

There is no reason of which I am aware that vinegar additions to kalk make stirring a non issue. When acetic acid( vinegar is added ) it allows as much as 36% more kalk to dissolve in the dosing reservoir, thus enabling a higher dose to the tank. However, it also adds an organic carbon source to the tank which may or may not meet the aqurists goals/needs. I dose organic carbon including vinegar separately.

Daddi0
05/07/2018, 08:05 AM
This is what I found when I started researching Kalk with vinegar prior to dosing:

The Acetic Acid in the Vinegar provides the equivalent of enough CO2 to take the reaction all the way to the desired end products for which we drip Kalk -- that is, to produce free Calcium ions and free Bicarbonate ions in solution in our tanks.

By using enough Vinegar, we can mix to our heart's content right in the container, and don't need to worry as much about dripping the solution slowly into the tank. We have already driven the reaction all the way to the desired outcome, and provided ample CO2 to produce a balance of free Calcium ions and free Bicarbonate ions. This, incidentally, is why Kalk is said to be "ionically balanced" - it produces a one-to-one balance between Calcium and Alkalinity.
http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/kalkwasser.html
Cheers! Mark

bertoni
05/07/2018, 10:01 AM
Vinegar is an acid, and it'll dissolve calcium carbonate, even if some forms. With enough aeration, though, that might not be enough. Vinegar does lower the pH a bit, but not all that much, since it's a fairly weak acid.

saf1
05/07/2018, 11:23 AM
Thanks for the information all. I'm still in the phase of understanding how the dosing works and what makes sense for me and my maintenance routines (and laziness - well, I honestly mean keeping my hands out of the tank). I've done Kalkwasser / pickling lime previously and have been reading about vinegar. I've moved my 40 breeder into my recently cycled 210 and it is just going through its phases now but have a higher phosphate (Pukani and over feeding) and nitrates. I personally am not too concerned because mine always run high but plan to lower without massive water changes (doesn't seem effective or cost effective to me anyway). And I was considering the Bionic series from ESV but that seems a bit expensive in the long term...

Again - thanks. Didn't mean to distract the thread but I did learn something so thanks.

Edit - one last question if you will. If auto top off is generally where you would place Kalk is there a amount per gallon of water? Same if you add vinegar to the same ATO solution? And before either of that is done would you test for x, w, and z once or twice to get a base line? Just wondering.

bertoni
05/07/2018, 11:42 AM
Some people use Kalkwasser in their ATO. I did that for years, but the evaporation rate in my systems was very consistent. Deciding how much Kalk per gallon takes some times, although Kalk is a very dilute supplement, so your tank might need more.

Daddi0
05/07/2018, 04:33 PM
Edit - one last question if you will. If auto top off is generally where you would place Kalk is there a amount per gallon of water? Same if you add vinegar to the same ATO solution? And before either of that is done would you test for x, w, and z once or twice to get a base line? Just wondering.
Keep an eye on calcium and Alk. and when water changes alone dont keep them where you like - revisit the Kalk idea.
I started with 1/2 tsp Kalk per gallon of R/O and 15 ml vinegar per gallon.
Cheers! Mark