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Aquavaj
05/18/2018, 05:31 PM
Let's say you start a tank this way. Yes, it'll be an extremely boring one but just for discussion sake.

1. All brand new hardware (tank, sump, pumps, skimmers...etc)
2. Completely dead rock (bleached and dried for years)
3. Completely dead sand (dried for years)
4. Saltwater made from clean RO water
5. No fish, corals, additives or anything containing living sealife added
6. Temp and lighting kept with regular water changes

Besides bacteria growing will this tank be pretty much "dead"? Or will life somehow someway find a way to start eventually?

ramseynb
05/18/2018, 05:36 PM
Sure it will! After millions of years, or perhaps billions of years, the bacteria in the tank will evolve and most likely other creatures will form. Just make sure to keep up with water changes and top off with RO water.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/cheech.gif

mcgyvr
05/18/2018, 05:56 PM
Actually..
It will cycle just fine..
I've started tanks like that before and they have cycled in a little over a month..
The bacteria will come no matter what.. Its everywhere..

Other life though really needs to be brought in on coral frags,etc....

Kevin Guthrie
05/18/2018, 06:09 PM
If you bump up the nutrients then I suspect you will get some algae along with cyano bacteria. Aerosolized water droplets have a way of getting everywhere, and some of them contain spores and single cells.

Subsea
05/18/2018, 09:13 PM
Let's say you start a tank this way. Yes, it'll be an extremely boring one but just for discussion sake.

1. All brand new hardware (tank, sump, pumps, skimmers...etc)
2. Completely dead rock (bleached and dried for years)
3. Completely dead sand (dried for years)
4. Saltwater made from clean RO water
5. No fish, corals, additives or anything containing living sealife added
6. Temp and lighting kept with regular water changes

Besides bacteria growing will this tank be pretty much "dead"? Or will life somehow someway find a way to start eventually?


Obviously, you did not see Jurassic Park, “Nature will find a way”.

Psychomantix
05/18/2018, 09:49 PM
Obviously, you did not see Jurassic Park, “Nature will find a way”.


That's total BS. Just look at the difficulty of breeding saltwater fish in captivity. Out of thousands of fish out there only a handful are successfully bred in captivity. Life doesn't find a way at all. Life purposefully seek out a way to die.

swhobbie1
05/18/2018, 10:15 PM
[QUOTE= Life purposefully seek out a way to die.[/QUOTE]

... after it reproduces...

diatoms, cyano, GHA and those little clear things on the glass that looks like tiny anenomes :uhoh2:

2_zoa
05/18/2018, 10:28 PM
That's total BS. Just look at the difficulty of breeding saltwater fish in captivity. Out of thousands of fish out there only a handful are successfully bred in captivity. Life doesn't find a way at all. Life purposefully seek out a way to die.

So is it “life” that’s falling short? Or is it the individual trying to play into the role of life? Honestly stop and think about how your statement comes across.

Are you seriously trying to compare what happens in the ocean to what humans “try” to create in a box/container of salty water?

Even if you are.....life has in fact found a way. In many different points of views. You can look at it as though life found a way through education/intervention. You can look at it as though, the ones that are successfully being bread are more strong.....etc, etc, etc..

I have critters living and groaning in a tank right now that I only introduced snails into. Of which, said snails are shipped with nothing more than a wet paper towel. “Life” is far more resilient than your giving it credit for. After all, how long has it put up with us polluting the waters?

Subsea
05/18/2018, 10:41 PM
That's total BS. Just look at the difficulty of breeding saltwater fish in captivity. Out of thousands of fish out there only a handful are successfully bred in captivity. Life doesn't find a way at all. Life purposefully seek out a way to die.

Sorry for your success with that.

whiteshark
05/18/2018, 11:10 PM
I suspect given the parameters you stated, with no further introductions, you would have bacteria and that's about it. Perhaps algae if you add light, but without nutrient inputs and normal water changes, it would pretty much be starved of what it requires to grow. You probably wouldn't have anything else. The "life finds a way" modes of introduction are all taken out of the equation here. No vectors to transport anything to the tank. Unless given the millions of years mentioned in the first response necessary for evolution.

And yes, snails are most definitely vectors for introduction of a myriad of critters. Saying you "just added snails" is like saying "I just inoculated you with this virus. It's amazing that you got this virus!".

Tripod1404
05/18/2018, 11:17 PM
It also depends how close you are to the ocean. Large quantities of aerosolized ocean water makes it way inland with winds and storms. It probably carries many single cellular saltwater organisms. Closer you are to the shore, faster some of these droplets will end in your tank.

Juts look at NASA's aerosol depth satellite maps;

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/GlobalMaps/view.php?d1=MODAL2_M_AER_OD

whiteshark
05/18/2018, 11:21 PM
It also depends how close you are to the ocean. Large quantities of aerosolized ocean water makes it way inland with winds and storms. It probably carries many single cellular saltwater organisms. Closer you are to the shore, faster some of these droplets will end in your tank.

Juts look at NASA's aerosol depth satellite maps;

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/GlobalMaps/view.php?d1=MODAL2_M_AER_OD

That is pretty cool, but is there any way to differentiate between different types of aerosols? Who knows if I'm being covered by water particles or dust particles?

Tripod1404
05/18/2018, 11:41 PM
That is pretty cool, but is there any way to differentiate between different types of aerosols? Who knows if I'm being covered by water particles or dust particles?

I dont know a public resource that specifically maps that. But I have seen individual maps of smaller scale that maps aerosolized salt and water particles. Maybe an algorithm can interpret that data to approximate seawater based aerosols. For instance this map shows salt separate from smoke;

https://phys.org/news/2017-11-hurricanes-aerosols-simulation.html

Aside from that, your best bet would be matching the "total aerosol" map with known events. At that time, if there was a large storm or hurricane coming towards the ocean and the map shows large amount aerosols, it is probably ocean water. If there was forest fires at that time, it is probably smoke.

The Mayor
05/19/2018, 12:26 AM
Isn’t it possible that the sand could be harboring some eggs? Sea monkeys come in a dry packet. Not sure what pod eggs look like.

Tripod1404
05/19/2018, 03:06 AM
Isn’t it possible that the sand could be harboring some eggs? Sea monkeys come in a dry packet. Not sure what pod eggs look like.

Brine shrimp live in lakes that naturally dry up completely (sometimes for decades). Most ocean based saltwater organisms cannot survive that because their environment do not dry up in nature. Some that inhabit tidal pools might be able to dry up for maybe few hours to days, but would not survive bone ry much longer.

The Mayor
05/19/2018, 08:22 AM
Well it was just a theory about the possibility of how life could get into a virgin tank. I thought brine shrimp come from places like San scram Bay

Scott07
05/19/2018, 09:32 AM
Check out the experiment a chemist named Stanley Miller conducted in 1953.... I think I saw this late night on pbs or something haha. Very similar question to what you're maybe theoretically asking.

2_zoa
05/19/2018, 11:42 AM
And yes, snails are most definitely vectors for introduction of a myriad of critters. Saying you "just added snails" is like saying "I just inoculated you with this virus. It's amazing that you got this virus!".

Im not sure I fully understand what your saying here. Are you saying that, if I get a flu shot and then contract the flu....OMG it’s amazing I got the flu?

My point with the snails wasn’t about importing things into a tank so much so. As it was more about the statement that was made, and I was replying to. Which, was simply that life doesn’t find ways to die. It in fact finds ways to survive. You made my point on the snails more strong. Snails are not always shipped or brought home in bags of water. As I mentioned, wet paper towels are all that is used to keep some species of snails alive for a week while shipping. Which means life has found a “way” to survive, in this case out of the water.

whiteshark
05/19/2018, 07:23 PM
Im not sure I fully understand what your saying here. Are you saying that, if I get a flu shot and then contract the flu....OMG it’s amazing I got the flu?

My point with the snails wasn’t about importing things into a tank so much so. As it was more about the statement that was made, and I was replying to. Which, was simply that life doesn’t find ways to die. It in fact finds ways to survive. You made my point on the snails more strong. Snails are not always shipped or brought home in bags of water. As I mentioned, wet paper towels are all that is used to keep some species of snails alive for a week while shipping. Which means life has found a “way” to survive, in this case out of the water.

Yes, I completely agree that life is exceptionally resilient and absolutely is better at finding ways to survive than finding ways to die. I apologize that I misinterpreted what you were saying.

My virus comment was tongue in cheek and facetious, but you interpreted exactly correctly. My point was that adding snails is basically introducing a plethora of life to the tank, so to say it would be amazing that other things started popping up is kind of ridiculous. I understand now that isn't what you were trying to say, though.

seamonster124
05/19/2018, 09:27 PM
I waited 6 months for life to find a way. Tank had a list of issues and outbreaks. Then I bought 50lbs of LR from an established tank and explosion of life within days.

ramseynb
05/19/2018, 10:36 PM
Life doesn't find a way at all. Life purposefully seek out a way to die.

Dude, there's some form of life that "found a way" in the harshest conditions on this planet and likely on planets that are far harsher than ours. Life is not near as delicate as you're making it sound. Complex or intelligent life is more delicate or rare. Just think about yourself. Think about all the life that survived and flourished long enough to breed over enough years to where you're sitting here right now reading this comment.

ramseynb
05/19/2018, 10:38 PM
I waited 6 months for life to find a way. Tank had a list of issues and outbreaks. Then I bought 50lbs of LR from an established tank and explosion of life within days.

I have quite a bit of life on my dry rock after around 6 months. I did add a couple small pieces of seed rock plus whatever hitchhiked on snails and frags. This includes some pretty large black and white feather dusters that I've not had in a tank before (I've had plenty of feather dusters, but not this species).

2_zoa
05/21/2018, 10:13 PM
Yes, I completely agree that life is exceptionally resilient and absolutely is better at finding ways to survive than finding ways to die. I apologize that I misinterpreted what you were saying.

My virus comment was tongue in cheek and facetious, but you interpreted exactly correctly. My point was that adding snails is basically introducing a plethora of life to the tank, so to say it would be amazing that other things started popping up is kind of ridiculous. I understand now that isn't what you were trying to say, though.

I gotcha.

Thank you for the response and clarifying.:beer:

Subsea
05/22/2018, 08:56 AM
I gotcha.

Thank you for the response and clarifying.:beer:

I’ll drink to that also. With respect to resilience and adaptability, it is amazing what bacteria and algae can do.

Cynobacteria converted methan & sulfur athmosphere on early planet earth to the oxygen that we breath today.

Cynobacteria are the nitrogen pump for planet earth by a process called “nitrogen fixation” in which bacteria convert nitrogen gas into a nitrate molecule.

Bacteria encapsulated in salt crystals survive for 100 million years.

Bacteria react with coral in a feeding loop in which coral selective feed on specific bacteria and in doing so produce DOC favorable to the growth of that specific bacteria. Sounds like coral cultivating a garden of bacteria to eat.

In my own experiences with macro, I removed a large weathered Edwards Plateau rock from a stream bed and positioned it in a 150G tank that I was setting up. Aroggonite “Special Reef Grade” dry from the bag and an old rock from my “wet weather” stream bed near Austin combined with Instant Ocean and nothing more for a month. With subdued lighting, within 3 months that rock started growing some very neat red carpet moss. It got lost later during the tanks progression of maturity.

This past fall I restarted an outside macro/pod cultivation system consisting of three 150G Rubbermade tanks buried in the ground. Within three months, I noted numerous strands of a macro cousin of Ulva growing from a discharge pipe.. The pipe had been dry for 5 years in the Texas sun.

https://www.marineplantbook.com/marinebookenteromorpha.htm