PDA

View Full Version : Goodbye Calc Reactor.... Hello Kalkwasser


NO3
05/29/2018, 10:10 AM
Great video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu_To5UZ2c0&pbjreload=10

Sk8r
05/29/2018, 10:29 AM
I threw out a reactor after numerous problems. Couldn't in good conscience sell the thing. I've used kalk in topoff with no regrets.

Bpb
05/29/2018, 10:46 AM
Not really an apples to apples comparison exactly. Kalkwasser is ok for an inexpensive supplement for low demand tanks that rely heavily on water changes to supplement other elements


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

marinelife
05/29/2018, 11:01 AM
to me constant alk, ca, mag going into the tank is best.
For large systems, CA Reactors just seem to work better for me.

Bpb
05/29/2018, 11:05 AM
Agreed. Having extensively used all 3 popular forms of supplementing, itís not a fair assessment to say one is better than another. Lifestyle, budget, and specific application will make each one more or less appealing to the individual.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

biecacka
05/29/2018, 01:56 PM
Agreed.
A number of larger tanks packed with sps cannot keep up with the demands for Alk and calcium solely on kalk mix.

Corey

NO3
05/29/2018, 04:45 PM
My dad use to tell me, "Always listen very very close to the guy who has the biggest net worth in the room"

I'm guessing Ryan Batcheller (President of Bulk Reef Supply) (seen in training vid above) has a net worth of over 25-million maybe more......and knows more Marine Biologists than we have casual friends

He DID SAY at the end of the vid... "In our 160gal test reef I was on the fence about Kalk dosing but decided to go another way"..... Im guessing he went Calc Reactor BUT WITH a CO2 media filter, which is a "$30-a-month" expense to run

Bpb
05/29/2018, 05:41 PM
My dad use to tell me, "Always listen very very close to the guy who has the biggest net worth in the room"

I'm guessing Ryan Batcheller (President of Bulk Reef Supply) (seen in training vid above) has a net worth of over 25-million maybe more......and knows more Marine Biologists than we have casual friends

He DID SAY at the end of the vid... "In our 160gal test reef I was on the fence about Kalk dosing but decided to go another way"..... Im guessing he went Calc Reactor BUT WITH a CO2 media filter, which is a "$30-a-month" expense to run



If you followed the brs 160 build closely when they set it up, they chose to go with 2 part dosing via a subscriber poll. Theyíve since gone from the zeolite system to the triton system. Citing specifically that the goal of this tank was to trial new products and reef keeping methods, not to claim which is best, but to give prospective buyers another set of data to use when making an informed decision.

Theyíve never used a calcium reactor on the brs 160, nor have they ever actually claimed that any particular piece of gear or method they use is the ďbestĒ.

The brs videos are great information. And offer some analytical data that most common hobbyists are ill equipped to provide for themselves. But at the end of the day theyíre selling something. Please bear that in mind when using their data to make decisions.

Thatís solid advice your dad gave, though perhaps Ill-placed in this scenario. Iíd listen closely to Ryan if he were providing advice on how to build sales and grow a company. If you want advice on how to grow coral fast with pretty colors, Iíd listen closer to a long term multi generational aquaculturist. Like Adam from Battlecorals, or Jason Fox.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

homer1475
05/29/2018, 05:48 PM
Thatís solid advice your dad gave, though perhaps Ill-placed in this scenario. Iíd listen closely to Ryan if he were providing advice on how to build sales and grow a company. If you want advice on how to grow coral fast with pretty colors, Iíd listen closer to a long term multi generational aquaculturist. Like Adam from Battlecorals, or Jason Fox.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


+1



Could not have said it better myself, with the addition of advice given by long time reefers here on RC and other forums.

Orcus Varuna
05/29/2018, 06:58 PM
My dad use to tell me, "Always listen very very close to the guy who has the biggest net worth in the room"

I'm guessing Ryan Batcheller (President of Bulk Reef Supply) (seen in training vid above) has a net worth of over 25-million maybe more......and knows more Marine Biologists than we have casual friends

He DID SAY at the end of the vid... "In our 160gal test reef I was on the fence about Kalk dosing but decided to go another way"..... Im guessing he went Calc Reactor BUT WITH a CO2 media filter, which is a "$30-a-month" expense to run


It may surprise you but college educated marine scientists are quite rare in the hobby. As one myself, most marine scientists I know find the hobby to be pretty unscrupulous due to the amount of marine life ripped from the reefs each year just to be sentenced to death in the aquariums of the ill prepared, uninformed, and uneducated...

But enough with the sidebar... As for kalk it certainly is not a replacement for a calcium reactor, especially if you have a tank stocked full of sps and clams. It may be simple but it has its own downsides such as dosing being linked to evaporation, it wrecks pumps, your limited in how much you can dose, jacks pH, etc. I always keep a tub on hand just in case something goes wrong with my doser but I would never rely on it long term. If your having issues with your carx Iíd look at the equipment you have. If you donít have a quality dual stage regulator, masterflexx pump, ph controller, etc itís no surprise you are having or had issues. A proper reactor setup that will be dead simple to tune and basically run with about 10min or so of maintenance a month will run you close to if not more that 2 grand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NO3
05/29/2018, 07:53 PM
Great video on using kalk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu_To5UZ2c0&pbjreload=10

rustyjames
05/29/2018, 11:29 PM
Imo, every post in this thread was respectful, thoughtful and with lots of good information. I haven't seen anyone trying to shoot you down.

In your other thread about your new dosing method posters gave you lots of good feedback how to achieve similar results much easier. I didn't see anyone shooting you down there either.

d2mini
05/30/2018, 07:20 AM
RC needs a "Let Me Correct You" section.

I thought Ryan's video was fabulous.....but AS EXPECTED when I posted it..... I knew a few NAH-SAYERs would find multiple things wrong with the video.



The video itself is definitely a great one on explaining Kalk and how to use it safely. Only thing I have a problem with is the "most tanks" bullet in the very beginning. Maybe because most people don't stay in the hobby long enough to outgrow Kalk.

Bu the real problem is your title of this thread. It's not a true replacement for a CaRx.

NO3
05/30/2018, 08:50 AM
I never meant that I was personally being "shot down".....

I meant I thought the video was a great video showing the effects of Kalk. Yet RC veterans were unimpressed, where I was like "Wow, light bulb over my head moment"....Frustrating

YES! I agree my TITLE is wrong leading people to think they should disconnect their Calc Reactor and go strictly to Kalk dosing.

Im on this KICK....research..... bc I truly believe to grow big beautiful corals at the MAX rate of growth one needs to:

* REDUCE/ELIMINATE as much CO2 in your water to up your pH at 8.3-8.4

* Max out the of OXYGEN in your tank so corals can use the Oxygen to grow. Every living thing on the planet uses Oxygen to grow.

*** I thought the video showed Kalk in a positive light using CO2 already in the tank to form calcium ions thus REDUCING CO2 in the tank.

I'm on this HUNT to max out my corals potential by reducing CO2 and uping Oxygen and pH..... It seems every time I find a piece of the puzzle RC veterans are quick to point out smthg is wrongm

Bpb
05/30/2018, 08:58 AM
I never meant that I was personally being "shot down".....

I meant I thought the video was a great video showing the effects of Kalk. Yet RC veterans were unimpressed, where I was like "Wow, light bulb over my head moment"....Frustrating

YES! I agree my TITLE is wrong leading people to think they should disconnect their Calc Reactor and go strictly to Kalk dosing.

Im on this KICK....research..... bc I truly believe to grow big beautiful corals at the MAX rate of growth one needs to:

* REDUCE/ELIMINATE as much CO2 in your water to up your pH at 8.3-8.4

* Max out the of OXYGEN in your tank so corals can use the Oxygen to grow. Every living thing on the planet uses Oxygen to grow.

*** I thought the video showed Kalk in a positive light using CO2 already in the tank to form calcium ions thus REDUCING CO2 in the tank.

I'm on this HUNT to max out my corals potential by reducing CO2 and uping Oxygen and pH..... It seems every time I find a piece of the puzzle RC veterans are quick to point out smthg is wrongm



I donít think thereís anything wrong with kalkwasser, nor does anyone who replied to the thread. Itís a perfectly serviceable method of supplementation for low to moderate demand. The only corrective statements anyone has made to this point is with the idea that kalkwasser can replace a reactor. Nothing else. Many people with a high enough demand use BOTH. Iíve tried using both, but I also use a co2 scrubber on my skimmer, and kalkwasser plus the co2 scrubber pushes my ph TOO high. It can get up to 8.6-8.7 if the house is empty all day.

Youíre absolutely correct in your research that maximizing O2 and minimizing CO2 is a big help in improving color and growth. Unless you have the know how and budget to do a calcium reactor from the get go, kalkwasser is a powerful and easy way to start supplementing. I donít think people are disagreeing as much as it seems.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

d2mini
05/30/2018, 09:12 AM
I thought the video showed Kalk in a positive light using CO2 already in the tank to form calcium ions thus REDUCING CO2 in the tank.

It seems every time I find a piece of the puzzle...... RC veterans are quick to point out the method they've used for the last 10+ years is superior to any open discussion. Unless an Acros can grow to the size if a basketball overnight, they're unimpressed and not moving off their husbandry they've used for decade(s)

No man, you are spot on. Kalk is a great way to go in the beginning. It's cheap, effective, pretty easy, and the upside is it keeps ph elevated. Some people have been known to get by with just Kalk in a full blown reef tank, but I never have. My tanks quickly outgrow it and I need to move on to two-part dosing or CaRx. In larger tanks it makes much more financial sense to move to the CaRx.

A downside is safety issues. Gotta make sure you apply it in a way that prevents an overnight kalk dump into your tank or sucking up the sediment at the bottom. And if you are just adding it to your ATO you will go through pumps.

And as mentioned earlier, a missing benefit compared to a CaRx is lack of other micro elements.

Overall, I prefer the CaRx. Only downside for me is struggling with ph. But a c02 scrubber seems to have taken care of that for me, and the c02 media is lasting a long time so far.

Bpb
05/30/2018, 09:18 AM
But a c02 scrubber seems to have taken care of that for me, and the c02 media is lasting a long time so far.


+1. A TLF 150 seems to work for 3-4 weeks for me. It keeps ph elevated long after it turns purple. And Iím using a maxed out lifereef running 1600 gph so itís pulling a ton of air. I have a pretty full house. Family of 5 plus two cats in a small house and it keeps my ph between 8.1-8.4 all day every day. I notice a distinct difference in growth and color with it versus without it.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

nereefpat
05/30/2018, 09:33 AM
It might be good to associate some numbers with kalk and low/med/high demand systems.

For example, my 125 w/ 40 sump evaporates about 2 gallons a day. If I replaced all that with saturated kalk, it would add about 2dKH a day. That's quite a bit of demand. I could push that number even higher by increasing evaporation or adding vinegar to the kalk bucket (a lot of reefers carbon dose anyway).

I don't have SPS (well...one monti cap), and every system is different.

I think kalk is underused in this hobby. It's cheap and easy to use. I would agree that as alk/ca demand increases the cost: benefit ratio shifts from kalk->two-part->CaRX.

Ca RX can add Mg too.

NO3
05/30/2018, 09:50 AM
I gave up/quit all SPS about 5 yrs ago bc one Alk-Spike is UNFORGIVING and will wipe out every last SPS in the tank in a few days.

My only concern that the video DIDNT talk about was the potential of Alk-Spikes if you overdose Kalk.

d2mini
05/30/2018, 10:15 AM
I gave up/quit all SPS about 5 yrs ago bc one Alk-Spike is UNFORGIVING and will wipe out every last SPS in the tank in a few days.



My only concern that the video DIDNT talk about was the potential of Alk-Spikes if you overdose Kalk.


What kind of alk spike are you talking about? How much? Over how long of a period?

Alk is Alk, doesn't matter where it comes from.

Good husbandry means you are checking your Alk every 2-3 days. Sooner if you are still dialing things in. Unless a doser goes haywire, there is no reason for you to let your Alk jump from something like 8.5 to 11 or 12 or higher. The most you should be seeing is .5-1 dkh moves. And SPS has no problems with that.

ca1ore
05/30/2018, 10:59 AM
I'm guessing Ryan Batcheller (President of Bulk Reef Supply) (seen in training vid above) has a net worth of over 25-million maybe more......and knows more Marine Biologists than we have casual friend.

This made me snort coffee through my nose ..... very funny.

Old adage in the aquarium hobby - best way to make a million ..... is to start with two million. Maybe he was independently wealthy before, dunno; I think a NW of $25 million would come as a great surprise to him :lol:

NO3
05/30/2018, 11:12 AM
Complete opposite. He visited a LFS event in Cincinnati in 2015....and I stood next to him for an hour BSing.

He was a waiter with a high school diploma. He started his first reef tank in a 40g and joined a local Reef Club.

He decided to make his own CORAL food and searched the Internet for the best ingredients. He had success after researching best ingredients in what proportions....and where to buy ingredients online.

He started selling his coral food for his Reef Club.....then other Reef Clubs..... then it went Regionally....then Nationally.... then Internationally.

Then he grew his biz into supplying reef consumables in bulk quantities.

BRS was born and its an International phenom biz.

He literally got started by making coral food in his kitchen in his apartment....now a major player in the saltwater industry.

If I'm lying...in dying....heard his story standing 3ft from him.

ca1ore
05/30/2018, 11:20 AM
Kalk is a great way to go in the beginning. It's cheap, effective, pretty easy, and the upside is it keeps ph elevated. Some people have been known to get by with just Kalk in a full blown reef tank, but I never have. My tanks quickly outgrow it and I need to move on to two-part dosing or CaRx. In larger tanks it makes much more financial sense to move to the CaRx.

My experience also. Both the CaRx and Kalk have been around for decades (just look for some of the early, seminal work from Peter Wilkens - I actually still have his books). I find kalk to be quite useful for pH control and use it in conjunction with my CaRx - but it is nowhere close to sufficient for my tank. I don't doubt that kalk is adequate for most tanks, because most tanks are quite modest. For the really impressive systems, dosing or the CaRx becomes critical. The CaRx also offers benefits that seem to elude many people - that in the process of dissolving coral skeletons, you are replenishing all required minerals, not just alk and calcium. Installing my CaRx in 1997 was the thing that really turned the corner for me in terms of success with SPS.

ca1ore
05/30/2018, 11:21 AM
Complete opposite. He visited a LFS event in Cincinnati in 2015....and I stood next to him for an hour BSing.

He was a waiter with a high school diploma. He started his first reef tank in a 40g and joined a local Reef Club.

He decided to make his own CORAL food and searched the Internet for the best ingredients. He had success after researching best ingredients in what proportions....and where to buy ingredients online.

He started selling his coral food for his Reef Club.....then other Reef Clubs..... then it went Regionally....then Nationally.... then Internationally.

Then he grew his biz into supplying reef consumables in bulk quantities.

BRS was born and its an International phenom biz.

He literally got started by making coral food in his kitchen in his apartment....now a major player in the saltwater industry.

If I'm lying...in dying....heard his story standing 3ft from him.

.... and that's even funnier ..... I'm sorry, but I don't think you have the foggiest idea of what you are talking about. I don't think there are any multi-millionaires in this hobby :lol: But it's beside the point, just made me laugh ..... carry on.

jamie1981
05/30/2018, 11:29 AM
Complete opposite. He visited a LFS event in Cincinnati in 2015....and I stood next to him for an hour BSing.

He was a waiter with a high school diploma. He started his first reef tank in a 40g and joined a local Reef Club.

He decided to make his own CORAL food and searched the Internet for the best ingredients. He had success after researching best ingredients in what proportions....and where to buy ingredients online.

He started selling his coral food to his local Reef Club.....WORD OF MOUTG grew like wildfire....then sold to other Reef Clubs..... then it went Regionally....then Nationally.... then Internationally.

Then he grew his biz into supplying reef consumables in bulk quantities.

BRS was born and its an International phenom biz.

He literally got started by making coral food in his kitchen in his apartment....now a major player in the saltwater industry.

If I'm lying...in dying....heard his story standing 3ft from him.

OK so where does the 25mill number come from? or are you just pulling numbers out of air?

True Ryan stated BRS from nothing but he is also a sales rep for the company. Those videos are great, full of info, but there main purpose is to sell product. So take everything he says with a grain of salt (no pun intended)

jamie1981
05/30/2018, 11:36 AM
This made me snort coffee through my nose ..... very funny.

Old adage in the aquarium hobby - best way to make a million ..... is to start with two million. Maybe he was independently wealthy before, dunno; I think a NW of $25 million would come as a great surprise to him :lol:

While true BRS isn't growing corals, their just selling all the equipment to the people who get in the hobby and think they will make $1 million selling corals LOL Only to realize after spending thousands it aint happening.

jamie1981
05/30/2018, 11:43 AM
BRS NET WORTH in 2017: $16,000,000
https://www.owler.com/company/bulkreefsupply

RYAN'S PERSONAL STORY (as he told me at an event in 2015 standing next to him for 1 hour)

He was a waiter with a high school diploma in Minnesota. He started his first reef tank in a 40g and joined a local Reef Club.

He decided to make his own CORAL food and searched the Internet for the best ingredients. He had success after researching best ingredients in what proportions....and where to buy ingredients online.

He started selling his coral food to his local Reef Club.....WORD OF MOUTH grew like wildfire....then sold to other Reef Clubs..... then it went Regionally....then Nationally.... then Internationally.

Then he grew his biz into supplying reef consumables in bulk quantities.

BRS was born and its an International phenom biz.

He literally got started by making coral food in his kitchen in his apartment....now a major player in the saltwater industry.

If I'm lying...I'm dying....heard his story standing 3ft from him.

I think you need to look up the difference in revenue and net worth.

NO3
05/30/2018, 11:45 AM
Great video on using kalk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu_To5UZ2c0&pbjreload=10

jamie1981
05/30/2018, 11:56 AM
I'm about done with the ARROGANCE of this board. Everyone sits in their computer chair or on their phone and its a FIGHT for:

Im right. Youre wrong.


I apologize but I've just browsed through many of your threads/posts and can see why you get the responses you do. Your not right all the time either.

ca1ore
05/30/2018, 12:04 PM
BRS NET WORTH in 2017: $16,000,000
https://www.owler.com/company/bulkreefsupply

Must admit, I'm surprised they do $16 million in annual revenue; however, as pointed out that's not the same as net worth - not even close. I've actually often wondered what the profit margin is on an online aquarium business like BRS. I suspect it's a lot lower than people would think. Only in recent years has Amazon actually made a net profit from their online retail business. Maybe Batcheller is smarter than Bezos?

Anyhow not really sure how one's net worth is germane to the discussion of kalk versus CaRx.

NO3
05/30/2018, 12:06 PM
:headwally::headwally::headwally::headwally::headwally::headwally:

Common biz knowledge that a biz net worth is the sum of the last 3 years in profit.

At $16m sales.... I assume the biz is profiting ~10%.... So $1.6m x 3 = $4.8m

ca1ore
05/30/2018, 12:12 PM
:headwally: :headwally: :headwally: :headwally: :headwally: :headwally: :headwally: :headwally: :headwally:

Common biz knowledge that a biz net worth is the sum of the last 3 years in profit.

At $16m sales.... I assume the biz is profiting ~10%.... So $1.6m x 3 = $4.8m

I suspect profit margins are a lot less than 10%. Business is 'worth' based on DCF of future cash flows. Probably close to 1x revenue in this case.

Vaughtk99
05/30/2018, 12:45 PM
I'll never give up my calcium reactor. Ever. Just saying after 35+ years experience it does what I need it to.

Tripod1404
05/30/2018, 12:49 PM
I think the main issue is the overreaching tittle of this post and OPs tendency to write half of his sentences in capital letters... Those kind of stuff easily p*sses people off and your idea or point is more likely to be shoot down because of it.

On the subject of Kalk vs Ca reactors, If kalk could replace CaRx, nobody would be using or selling Ca reactors. Kalk is good for low demand tanks, but any tank that has SPS colonies (not frags) and/or clams will have a demand higher than what kalk can complement (unless you intentionally evaporate water).

If you are worried about the impact of CO2 from a Ca reactor, use two part dosing. Also I would not worry about O2, almost all tank run at saturated O2 levels anyways. Amount of O2 has nothing to do with the pH of the water.

NO3
05/30/2018, 01:17 PM
Hi TRIPOD1404

how'a YOOOOOUA doin'?

nereefpat
05/30/2018, 01:27 PM
While true BRS isn't growing corals, their just selling all the equipment to the people who get in the hobby and think they will make $1 million selling corals LOL Only to realize after spending thousands it aint happening.

Yes. The "gold rushes" taught us this lesson. The only people getting rich were those selling pick axes, etc.

Also I would not worry about O2, almost all tank run at saturated O2 levels anyways. Amount of O2 has nothing to do with the pH of the water.

Yes, any tank with powerheads, skimmer, sump will have plenty of O2. Even an airstone works good enough in QT.

And it's a good chemistry lesson reminder there. Dissolved gases don't have much effect on other dissolved gases. Just because a tank has CO2 and pH lower than 8.0 doesn't mean there are low O2 levels.

Hastened
05/30/2018, 01:35 PM
My dad use to tell me, "Always listen very very close to the guy who has the biggest net worth in the room"

I'm guessing Ryan Batcheller (President of Bulk Reef Supply) (seen in training vid above) has a net worth of over 25-million maybe more......and knows more Marine Biologists than we have casual friends

He DID SAY at the end of the vid... "In our 160gal test reef I was on the fence about Kalk dosing but decided to go another way"..... Im guessing he went Calc Reactor BUT WITH a CO2 media filter, which is a "$30-a-month" expense to runDid your dad also tell you to not take "expert advice" from someone trying to sell you something?

I imagine BRS makes quite a margin from kalkwasser, which is just a pickling lime you can pick up for a fraction of their price.

My net worth is not worth listening to, haha.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

NO3
05/30/2018, 01:39 PM
The debate about Ryan not being a seriously knowledgeable hobbyist or biz man are personal attacks on a guy I personally met and found to be a great guy. Attacks on his credibility is an an attack on things I know for a fact arent true after meeting the man who was gracious enough to hang out with me and be super cool when is obviously didn't have to.

jamie1981
05/30/2018, 02:05 PM
On the subject of Kalk vs Ca reactors, If kalk could replace CaRx, nobody would be using or selling Ca reactors. Kalk is good for low demand tanks, but any tank that has SPS colonies (not frags) and/or clams will have a demand higher than what kalk can complement (unless you intentionally evaporate water).

If you are worried about the impact of CO2 from a Ca reactor, use two part dosing. Also I would not worry about O2, almost all tank run at saturated O2 levels anyways. Amount of O2 has nothing to do with the pH of the water.

This is spot on 100% correct, so why get upset about it OP?

NO3
05/30/2018, 04:32 PM
********************************

d2mini
05/30/2018, 04:42 PM
The debate about Ryan not being a seriously knowledgeable hobbyist or biz man are personal attacks on a guy I personally met and found to be a great guy. Attacks on his credibility is an an attack on things I know for a fact arent true after meeting the man who was gracious enough to hang out with me and be super cool when is obviously didn't have to.


You're just making stuff up now.

jamie1981
05/30/2018, 04:49 PM
The Calc Reactor debate is good open discussion

The debate about Ryan not being a seriously knowledgeable hobbyist or biz man are personal attacks on a guy I personally met and found to be a great guy. Attacks on his credibility is an an attack on things I know for a fact arent true after meeting the man who was gracious enough to hang out with me and be super cool when is obviously didn't have to.

Tired of too many people on RC taking an arrogant position that they are right and everyone else is not as right as them.

Are you serious?? How do you take me agreeing to good sound advice from other hobbyist as a personal attack against Ryan or BRS :confused:

NO3
05/30/2018, 05:27 PM
Bpb wrote "I'd listen closely to Ryan if he were providing advice on how to build sales and grow a company. If you want advice on how to grow coral fast with pretty colors, I’d listen closer to a long term multi generational aquaculturist. Like Adam from Battlecorals, or Jason Fox."

Bpb is saying Ryan is only a biz man and basically has no expert knowledge of reefing

Homer1475 wrote "+1 could not have said it better myself, with the addition of advice given by long time reefers here on RC and other forums"

Homer1474 is agreeing Ryan has no expert knowledge about reefing

ca1ore wrote "This made me snort coffee through my nose ..... very funny."

Again someone thinking its hilarious Ryan is an an expert reef hobbyist

ca1ore goes onto to write ".... and that's even funnier ..... I'm sorry, but I don't think you have the foggiest idea of what you are talking about. I don't think there are any multi-millionaires in this hobby But it's beside the point, just made me laugh ..... carry on."

Again slamming Ryan for being a guy who started as a hobbyist making coral food in his apartment but now owns a 16mil revenue international business.

Jamie1981 wrote "True Ryan stated BRS from nothing but he is also a sales rep for the company. Those videos are great, full of info, but there main purpose is to sell product. So take everything he says with a grain of salt (no pun intended)"

Yet another slam on Ryan who built a 16mil business starting as a hobbyist like you and me.

Jamie1981 goes on "While true BRS isn't growing corals, their just selling all the equipment to the people who get in the hobby and think they will make $1 million selling corals LOL Only to realize after spending thousands it aint happening."

Another slam against Ryan and BRS

ca1ore wrote "Only in recent years has Amazon actually made a net profit from their online retail business. Maybe Batcheller is smarter than Bezos?"

Underhanded slam against Ryan that a was so bold to put Ryan in the ranks of Jeff Bezos. Again I'm only trying to say Ryan is a serious advanced reefer that has a ton if knowledge.

WVfishguy
05/30/2018, 05:30 PM
My aquarium maintenance business was pulling in around $80 grand a year. I made a fraction of that as a paycheck. Since I did my own books, I knew most of my $$ went to buy gasoline (over $4 a gallon at the time) and to my employees who had to be paid well. (it was difficult, exacting work). But 1/2 of the money earned went to fuel costs. I don't believe I made ANY profit the last year I worked - I had not raised prices for too long a time.

I learned long ago that most people who made $$ from the aquarium hobby did not want to earn the money from working hard. They sold various "systems" guaranteed to wash your car while cleaning your tank for pennies on the dollar. Or a magic food.

I do not mean to be offensive, but none of those "systems" really worked. I'm sure BRS is a fine company, but I've seen dozens of fine companies come and go. Including my own.

d2mini
05/30/2018, 05:38 PM
Bpb wrote "I'd listen closely to Ryan if he were providing advice on how to build sales and grow a company. If you want advice on how to grow coral fast with pretty colors, I’d listen closer to a long term multi generational aquaculturist. Like Adam from Battlecorals, or Jason Fox."

Bpb is saying Ryan is only a biz man and basically has no expert knowledge of reefing

Homer1475 wrote "+1 could not have said it better myself, with the addition of advice given by long time reefers here on RC and other forums"

Homer1474 is agreeing Ryan has no expert knowledge about reefing

ca1ore wrote "This made me snort coffee through my nose ..... very funny."

Again someone thinking its hilarious Ryan is an an expert reef hobbyist

ca1ore goes onto to write ".... and that's even funnier ..... I'm sorry, but I don't think you have the foggiest idea of what you are talking about. I don't think there are any multi-millionaires in this hobby But it's beside the point, just made me laugh ..... carry on."

Again slamming Ryan for being a guy who started as a hobbyist making coral food in his apartment but now owns a 16mil revenue international business.

Jamie1981 wrote "True Ryan stated BRS from nothing but he is also a sales rep for the company. Those videos are great, full of info, but there main purpose is to sell product. So take everything he says with a grain of salt (no pun intended)"

Yet another slam on Ryan who built a 16mil business starting as a hobbyist like you and me.

Jamie1981 goes on "While true BRS isn't growing corals, their just selling all the equipment to the people who get in the hobby and think they will make $1 million selling corals LOL Only to realize after spending thousands it aint happening."

Another slam against Ryan and BRS

ca1ore wrote "Only in recent years has Amazon actually made a net profit from their online retail business. Maybe Batcheller is smarter than Bezos?"

Underhanded slam against Ryan that a was so bold to put Ryan in the ranks of Jeff Bezos. Again I'm only trying to say Ryan is a serious advanced reefer that has a ton if knowledge.



WOW. Just wow. Talk about misinterpretation. Lay off the drugs, kid. They'll stunt your growth. :hmm3:

jamie1981
05/30/2018, 05:40 PM
Those replies aren't slamming BRS or Ryan at all just the knowledge that you think you have of/about BRS. Your taking stuff out of context

homer1475
05/30/2018, 05:47 PM
Well let me clarify why I agreed with them....


Lets start off by saying I buy 90% of my reef gear from BRS and they do a great service to this industry.


Lets end with this, while I don't disagree with you on whether Ryan has actual reefing knowledge, and decent knowledge at that(just look at how the BRS 160 progressed). At the end of the day they are in the buisness to sell you things, and they do it well.



Look at some of their early vids, chocked full of info with no, or very little "extra" fluff on how this new gizmo is the greatest thing in reefing in years. Now look at their recent videos, every other word sounds like a pitch man. If you can't see that well that would explain your stance in this thread.



No one is slamming Ryan for starting one of the best companies in reefing, how they conduct that business, or their collective reefing knowledge. Your reading more into it then is intended.

Tripod1404
05/30/2018, 05:55 PM
The Calc Reactor debate is good open discussion

The debate about Ryan not being a seriously knowledgeable hobbyist or biz man are personal attacks on a guy I personally met and found to be a great guy. Attacks on his credibility is an an attack on things I know for a fact arent true after meeting the man who was gracious enough to hang out with me and be super cool when is obviously didn't have to.

Tired of too many people on RC taking an arrogant position that they are right and everyone else is not as right as them.



No offense to Ryan, I am sure he knows a lot about reefing, but I am certain a lot of people on this forum known a lot more about reefing than him. BRS is not a company that R&D reef aquarium related products and equipment, they are just an online distributor. They dont do science of any kind, at best it is cataloging with a hint pseudoscience, or a better word would be marketing science. They make it look like science when in reality it is advertising. Which doesn't mean Ryan is scamming people, it is still useful and helpful to watch and learn how stuff works and what it does, etc. so he does help a lot of novice reefers with basics and etc. But it doesn't make it science or research.

Bpb
05/30/2018, 06:06 PM
OP I came to speak my peace on the debate of the two supplementing methods, and added the thought of being generally somewhat wary of any advice given by a salesman beyond pure empirical data. I even submitted to generally agreeing with many of your sentiments on the importance of ph. However...

On a more personal note...youíre going to take this the wrong way. This much we have learned... but it is curious that after 15 years experience youíre only now learning about kalkwasser, or at least that is how your post comes across. For someone so steeped in research that is a pretty basic concept/product that you seem pretty impressed to just now hear of. There I said it. Because...

It has become ABUNDANTLY clear youíre an eggshell type of individual. Iíve known many people like this. Even when youíre right, you canít win. Youíll never be met with ďah good insight, thanks for sharing and contributing, explain more about how you came to these conclusions, not sure I agree or understandĒ

Youíre instead met with defensiveness and hostility, to the point of making wild assumptions that are pretty far from direct words that are spoken. I didnít BASICALLY say Ryan was a complete reefing moron. I specifically said his advice on building a business carries more merit than his advice on growing coral. Period. And that someone who sells CORAL for a living is the person whoís advice on the matter I would seek.

Iím not contacting Adam at Battlecorals asking him to give me par map data over time on the t5 tubes Iím not buying from him. I instead use the clear controlled data brs provides on the matter.....see where Iím going? Probably not. The others will agree though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Orcus Varuna
05/30/2018, 06:22 PM
Must admit, I'm surprised they do $16 million in annual revenue; however, as pointed out that's not the same as net worth - not even close. I've actually often wondered what the profit margin is on an online aquarium business like BRS. I suspect it's a lot lower than people would think. Only in recent years has Amazon actually made a net profit from their online retail business. Maybe Batcheller is smarter than Bezos?



Anyhow not really sure how one's net worth is germane to the discussion of kalk versus CaRx.



They make virtually nothing off MAP first party products (ecotech, ehiem, tunze, etc.). They carry brand name equipment to draw in people for the true money makers the brs branded supplements, reactors, reef chili, etc. Overall I would think considering they also offer free shipping they are operating at no more then 15-20% net op margin (which is not a lot). I could be wrong but the business they work is definitely not high margin for the retailer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Orcus Varuna
05/30/2018, 06:24 PM
You're just making stuff up now.



Thank you d2mini this made me chuckle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sde1500
05/30/2018, 06:26 PM
Do you post topics that can create debate for the sole purpose of getting upset by the debate? Seriously you do it every time. Itís like youíre out to feel insulted because *shocking* someone on the internet didnít agree with you.

Orcus Varuna
05/30/2018, 06:27 PM
OP I came to speak my peace on the debate of the two supplementing methods, and added the thought of being generally somewhat wary of any advice given by a salesman beyond pure empirical data. I even submitted to generally agreeing with many of your sentiments on the importance of ph. However...

On a more personal note...youíre going to take this the wrong way. This much we have learned... but it is curious that after 15 years experience youíre only now learning about kalkwasser, or at least that is how your post comes across. For someone so steeped in research that is a pretty basic concept/product that you seem pretty impressed to just now hear of. There I said it. Because...

It has become ABUNDANTLY clear youíre an eggshell type of individual. Iíve known many people like this. Even when youíre right, you canít win. Youíll never be met with ďah good insight, thanks for sharing and contributing, explain more about how you came to these conclusions, not sure I agree or understandĒ

Youíre instead met with defensiveness and hostility, to the point of making wild assumptions that are pretty far from direct words that are spoken. I didnít BASICALLY say Ryan was a complete reefing moron. I specifically said his advice on building a business carries more merit than his advice on growing coral. Period. And that someone who sells CORAL for a living is the person whoís advice on the matter I would seek.

Iím not contacting Adam at Battlecorals asking him to give me par map data over time on the t5 tubes Iím not buying from him. I instead use the clear controlled data brs provides on the matter.....see where Iím going? Probably not. The others will agree though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



Johnathan for the win!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tripod1404
05/30/2018, 06:31 PM
I’m not contacting Adam at Battlecorals asking him to give me par map data over time on the t5 tubes I’m not buying from him. I instead use the clear controlled data brs provides on the matter.....see where I’m going? Probably not. The others will agree though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I completely agree. I think too many people confuse what is science, what is cataloging and what is advertisement.

Recording the impact of PAR levels on growth of corals with appropriate controls and biological/technical repeats, and then publishing your results on a peer reviewed journal is science. And doing this is research.

Recording the PAR data of certain T5HO bulbs is cataloging. You can do this following the scientific method. It will give a very precise and reproducible catalog values. This is extremely useful, probably more useful than actual science from a hobbyist perspective (thanks Ryan for this!). But it is not science, and doing it is not research but cataloging.

Recording how certain corals in a single uncontrolled aquarium grew under a certain bulb or lighting system with no scientific controls, or repeats, or etc., and then showing your results on youtube and claiming it doubled the rate at which your corals grew is advertising with a pseudoscientific approach, and doing this is marketing.

jamie1981
05/30/2018, 06:35 PM
Do you post topics that can create debate for the sole purpose of getting upset by the debate? Seriously you do it every time. Itís like youíre out to feel insulted because *shocking* someone on the internet didnít agree with you.

I"m sorry for attacking the OP but based on his/her signature

"My day is not complete until I've been Quoted-n-Clobbered"

yes this is the goal.

fscmocsaj
05/30/2018, 06:38 PM
RC needs a "Let Me Correct You" section.

I thought Ryan's video was fabulous.....but AS EXPECTED when I posted it..... I knew a few NAH-SAYERs would find multiple things wrong with the video.

Ive yet to see a single post where someone doesn't step forward and say,
"nope, you're slightly wrong and let me type out a thesis on why I'm right and you're less-than-right."

FRUSTRATING.......that every post is a CLAY PIGEON just waiting to be shot out of the sky :(



[violation]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Preble
05/30/2018, 07:01 PM
People who believe that Kalk is better than aCalcium Reactor are the same people who suggest reef safe ich treatments, and bristle worms are bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Preble
05/30/2018, 07:18 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180531/8ef19c6a9d5ea3eaa3ec2be3ad517be7.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Preble
05/30/2018, 07:21 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180531/e3b8b5d1cc4070af41a5798785995716.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ca1ore
05/30/2018, 09:51 PM
Let's separate useful from foolish here. Kalkwasser IS absolutely useful and may well be sufficient for many mixed reefs. My son has an IM25 in his room. A pretty basic setup that was doing quite poorly. I started adding Kalk to the ATO reservoir (along with a kludged stirring stick) and the change has been quite remarkable. At the same time, asking Kalk alone to add adequate minerals to my SPS dominant 450 is, well, asking too much.

ca1ore
05/30/2018, 10:02 PM
They make virtually nothing off MAP first party products (ecotech, ehiem, tunze, etc.). They carry brand name equipment to draw in people for the true money makers the brs branded supplements, reactors, reef chili, etc. Overall I would think considering they also offer free shipping they are operating at no more then 15-20% net op margin (which is not a lot). I could be wrong but the business they work is definitely not high margin for the retailer.

That's probably true. Even the large traditional retailers only make a net profit of 1-2% of sales. While it's fashionable to think that an online business is inherently more profitable, the case of Amazon rather put the lie to it. AWS is the real money maker. BRS Web Services, hmmmmn, now there's an idea. Anyhow, I think this horse is well beaten.

NO3
05/30/2018, 10:30 PM
******************************************

Bpb
05/30/2018, 11:20 PM
You know the funniest thing about this whole thread, is that at no point in that video does Ryan ever even say that kalkwasser is a replacement for or superior to a calcium reactor. He actually specifically says kalkwasser is so cheap and simple to implement that it will work fine for just about all but the really heavily stocked stony coral category of tank. Which we can all agree on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

fscmocsaj
05/31/2018, 04:39 AM
RC Moderators gonna allow this kind of post reply?

fscmocsaj you just got Reported....unacceptable



Proves my point.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180531/74ca01419ba98bdca9fb0dea63f482b3.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Orcus Varuna
05/31/2018, 04:44 AM
Proves my point.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180531/74ca01419ba98bdca9fb0dea63f482b3.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



🤦🏻*♂️


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

fscmocsaj
05/31/2018, 04:50 AM
Do you post topics that can create debate for the sole purpose of getting upset by the debate? Seriously you do it every time. Itís like youíre out to feel insulted because *shocking* someone on the internet didnít agree with you.



What is it that you are trying to achieve OP? Sounds like you want to post a topic and then have everyone praise you for how smart you are and agree with everything you do. However, when you start to receive the opinion of others based on facts and experience you scream that you are getting attacked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sde1500
05/31/2018, 06:05 AM
It is unfortunate, because for a bit it was a good discussion on the merits of Kalk and Calcium reactors. Unfortunately OP tends to take things personally, and takes issue with any member who has more than 1k replies not agreeing with him. That post of his on another thread that devolved like this was edited by him, as were all on here of his.

NO3, you're wound too tight. No one was disagreeing with you to be argumentative, there are just so many ways to run a successful tank that there aren't many topics everyone is in 100% agreement on what is "best". Mainly because there is no best. I find it adds value when members chime in offering other solutions, or point out some of the limitations of the topic at hand. It allows readers to find all the information, or learn that there are other solutions out there.

Orcus Varuna
05/31/2018, 06:41 AM
It is unfortunate, because for a bit it was a good discussion on the merits of Kalk and Calcium reactors. Unfortunately OP tends to take things personally, and takes issue with any member who has more than 1k replies not agreeing with him. That post of his on another thread that devolved like this was edited by him, as were all on here of his.

NO3, you're wound too tight. No one was disagreeing with you to be argumentative, there are just so many ways to run a successful tank that there aren't many topics everyone is in 100% agreement on what is "best". Mainly because there is no best. I find it adds value when members chime in offering other solutions, or point out some of the limitations of the topic at hand. It allows readers to find all the information, or learn that there are other solutions out there.



Agreed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

d2mini
05/31/2018, 09:39 AM
That post of his on another thread that devolved like this was edited by him, as were all on here of his.

Wow you are right! All his posts from yesterday were edited by him.
Unnecessary insult removed. - Anemone

NO3
05/31/2018, 10:01 AM
I had a rough week in my personal life.....family life.

That spilled over to me being over sensitive and a jerk on RC and commented in ways im not proud of.......

This entire trainwrecked thread and the way I reacted to random comments is an attitude I will change going forward.

Thanks for understanding. Hopefully I didn't burn bridges and ask for your forgiveness

Bpb
05/31/2018, 10:13 AM
I had a rough week in my personal life.....family life.

That spilled over to me being over sensitive and a jerk on RC and commented in ways im not proud of.......

This entire trainwrecked thread and the way I reacted to random comments is an attitude I will change going forward.

Thanks for understanding. Hopefully I didn't burn bridges and ask for your forgiveness



All water under the bridge as far as Iím concerned. Stuff happens.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

sde1500
05/31/2018, 10:19 AM
Big of you to acknowledge it. Sometimes it is hard to not let outside forces affect things. 'sall good.

fscmocsaj
05/31/2018, 10:43 AM
[emoji1417] i accept your apology and raise you one as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ca1ore
05/31/2018, 11:43 AM
BTW, if one is going to use kalk something like the avast kalk stirrer is an excellent approach. I built all sorts of DiY monstrosities ..... wasting far more time and $ than if I had just bought the avast unit in the first place (or something like it).

ca1ore
05/31/2018, 11:50 AM
I had a rough week in my personal life.....family life.

That spilled over to me being over sensitive and a jerk on RC and commented in ways im not proud of.......

This entire trainwrecked thread and the way I reacted to random comments is an attitude I will change going forward.

Thanks for understanding. Hopefully I didn't burn bridges and ask for your forgiveness

It's all good .... I personally enjoy these kinds of debates. There was only one unacceptable post in the entire thread ..... and the mods took care of it :lol:

Hastened
05/31/2018, 12:37 PM
I'm a dad and I tell my kids if you find yourself arguing with someone on an internet forum then YOU are wrong, time to turn off the computer and deal with what is REALLY bothering you.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

biecacka
05/31/2018, 12:39 PM
Agreed. I don't think anyone was questioning Ryan's knowledge or personality, or the value in using kalk. I think most were just saying kalk is a great method but as ones tank grows so does its demand and it's very possible that it will outgrow kalk as an only dosing method.

Sorry to hear about the rough week, this one will be better buddy!

Corey

sde1500
05/31/2018, 02:00 PM
I'm a dad and I tell my kids if you find yourself arguing with someone on an internet forum then YOU are wrong, time to turn off the computer and deal with what is REALLY bothering you.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk



Iím tempted to argue with you why this is wrong. [emoji12]

homer1475
05/31/2018, 02:16 PM
All good. We all have bad days/weeks. Heck sometimes I wake up in the AM looking to pick a fight on RC, then remond myself that arguing on the internet is pointless.


:beer: :thumbsup:

Anemone
05/31/2018, 02:50 PM
This thread appears to have run its course.

Kevin