Calling all Centropyge keepers: Longevity of Centropyge angels in captivity

[OrionN]

I like to have a clear idea of the longevity of Centropyge angels in captivity. If all Centropyge owners participates we can easily get an accurate answer to this question. Please help by answer the following questions:

1. What species of Centropyge?
2. What was/is the longest time you had/have your oldest/longest Centropyge angel?
3. Is he still alive?
4. If he passed, what happen? or best guess at the cause.

My answers:
1. Centropyge loricula, the Flame Angel
2. 5 years
3. No
4. Killed in tank crash from Hurricane Harvey

[HumbleFish]

I actually found some old logs about this and have kept the following in captivity for over 10 years:

Centropyge bispinosa
Centropyge loricula
Centropyge vroliki
Centropyge tibicin
Centropyge bicolor
Centropyge flavissima
Centropyge acanthops

^^ Disclaimer: Some of those are from my personal collection, some went into clients' tanks.

[OrionN]

I actually found some old logs about this and have kept the following in captivity for over 10 years:

Centropyge bispinosa
Centropyge loricula
Centropyge vroliki
Centropyge tibicin
Centropyge bicolor
Centropyge flavissima
Centropyge acanthops

^^ Disclaimer: Some of those are from my personal collection, some went into clients' tanks.
Thanks. My research indicates that 10 years, maybe a little more seem to be the upper limit of Centropyge longevity in captivity. Hope there are more people chime in. This information would be great to know.

[wrott]

Potters', 11yrs, still swimming
Venustus, 8yrs, still swimming

[ThRoewer]

There was a study (dissertation) done on angelfish longevity in the wild. The examined species were C. loricula (8 years), C. bicolor (18 years), and P. sexstriatus (up to 60 years). Female maximum ages were lower than those of males.
In captivity the fish might get older as geriatric fish are less likely to fall prey.
I will provide the link to the study later.

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[OrionN]

Thanks.
I hope more people would participate. It information is very important IMO, however, I am biased because I really love my angels.

[ThRoewer]

Have you tried a Google Scholar search? That's where I usually find the best information to any given topic.

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[ThRoewer]

BTW, there is a correlation between maximum size and longevity. And growth rate may also play a role.

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[OrionN]

Thanks. I never use this search. Will try next time.

[ThRoewer]

I posted the link in your other thread in the Reef Fish forum.

Thanks. I never use this search. Will try next time.

Please make sure to share your findings in the Reef Fish forum.

I posted a number of studies in this thread: Pair and spawning behavior of Angelfish (Pomacanthidae) (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2555229)

[HumbleFish]

I don't know how accurate the information is, but lifespan is typically included here: https://animal-world.com/encyclo/marine/angels/angels.php

And this is a PDF of TAXONOMIC REVISION OF THE GENUS CENTROPYGE: https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10125/6906/uhm_phd_4412_r.pdf#page=249

[ThRoewer]

And this is a PDF of TAXONOMIC REVISION OF THE GENUS CENTROPYGE: https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10125/6906/uhm_phd_4412_r.pdf#page=249
That revision is already put into question by later studies like this one:
Evolution of pygmy angelfishes - Recent divergences, introgression, and the usefulness of color in taxonomy (https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Evolution+of+pygmy+angelfishes+-+Recent+divergences%2C+introgression%2C+and+the+usefulness+of+color+in+taxonomy&btnG=)

[alton]

The following is a picture of my three flames. I believe the male was ten when he passed? I am trying to find documentation proving that. Back in 2005 I had access to the company digital camera. Today I take pictures all day long with my phone. My wife picked it out at at store that later Louis bought out and renamed it Elegant Reef then moved to Nakoma and 281. Why did he pass? I bought a Blueface Angel from DD, had it in QT for a week. It was doing so well I moved him into the main tank. A week later he was dead, another week most of the fish in the tank died including the two regals pictured here. Surprisingly the female Flames lived. Which I thought the larger one would of become the male leaving the smaller the female. Instead the larger female killed the smaller one, and was so mean I had to trade it to the fish store and start over. I will contact Louis today to get more info to correct or confirm the ten years? I just confirmed with Louis about when he took over which was around 04-05, which ages the Flame at 10 to 11 years when it passed.

[Zionas]

I’d be especially curious to know how long the Flameback lived. HumbleFish.



As for this thread, I really hope more people join in!

[Zionas]

ThRoewer The article does not mention specifically how long each type of Centropyge angel lives for. What are your personal experiences with their lifespan?

[HumbleFish]

I’d be especially curious to know how long the Flameback lived. HumbleFish.

That one was a little over 11 years. I lost it shortly after transferring into a "big boy tank" with more aggressive large angels. The Flameback had become too aggressive towards other Centropyge in a smaller system.

[OrionN]

Lover your angels Alton, especially the misbar Regal. How big are those Regal? and how old?

[Zionas]

That one was a little over 11 years. I lost it shortly after transferring into a "big boy tank" with more aggressive large angels. The Flameback had become too aggressive towards other Centropyge in a smaller system.

Pretty darn good. Did it die of old age or did it die of something else? And how long did you manage to keep the larger dwarf angels?

You told me you’ve kept a Flame for 15 years and it’s still alive, correct me if I’m wrong.

[Zionas]

The following is a picture of my three flames. I believe the male was ten when he passed? I am trying to find documentation proving that. Back in 2005 I had access to the company digital camera. Today I take pictures all day long with my phone. My wife picked it out at at store that later Louis bought out and renamed it Elegant Reef then moved to Nakoma and 281. Why did he pass? I bought a Blueface Angel from DD, had it in QT for a week. It was doing so well I moved him into the main tank. A week later he was dead, another week most of the fish in the tank died including the two regals pictured here. Surprisingly the female Flames lived. Which I thought the larger one would of become the male leaving the smaller the female. Instead the larger female killed the smaller one, and was so mean I had to trade it to the fish store and start over. I will contact Louis today to get more info to correct or confirm the ten years? I just confirmed with Louis about when he took over which was around 04-05, which ages the Flame at 10 to 11 years when it passed.



Nice. What did the Blueface Angel do to kill the male Flame angel and most of the other fish? Also, Arab the females still alive today and how old would they be?

[alton]

Zionas I believe the blueface had velvet or some other disease? And Minh the regals shown also died along with male flame.

[Zionas]

RIP dwarf angels.

I’d love more people to chime in on this. One member on R2R told me (and said in a thread) that the Pygmy angels have a shorter lifespan compared to the medium and larger Centropyges. Is that generally true or not?

[ThRoewer]

A while ago I found a scientific research paper/dissertation that investigated the lifespans and sex changes of 3 different angelfish species in the wild:

Centropyge loricula:
Lifespan in the wild up to 8 years.
Start out as females and change into males (if dominant).
Recent research suggests that males may also be able to revert back to females.
These findings likely apply to all closely related species.

Centropyge bicolor:
Lifespan in the wild up to 18 years.
Start out as females and change into males (if dominant).

Pomacanthus sexstriatus:
Lifespan in the wild up to 60 years.
Start out as immature bisexual and change permanently into females or males when maturing. Ño sex change later.
This applies almost certainly to all 3 species of the Euxiphipops group (P. navachus, P. xanthometopon, P. sexstriatus) and most likely also to all of the other Pomacanthus species.

This research shows a clear correlation between size and lifespan so it can be deducted that pygmy angels from the acanthops complex have shorter lifespans than the loricula sized dwarf angels.

And while with good care dwarf and pygmy angels might get older in captivity than in the wild, the majority will likely perish before their time.
Unfortunately it is rather unlikely that most large angels get to live as long in captivity as they might in the wild...

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[jambon222]

I had an eibli angelfish about 6 yrs ago. It is still living happily in a friends tank.

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[Zionas]

ThRoewer Which species of dwarf angels have you kept and how long did they live for? If I cannot get a 120cm tank I will get a 90cm or 100cm tank. For those smaller tank sizes would one of the loricula sized dwarf angels work or should I only stick to a Pygmy?

[Mache62]

African Flameback I've had for at least 8 years. Biggest bully in the tank lol. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200416/2ad068d818abf89febb58bb29b64c047.jpg

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[gotfrogs]

I have had my current one for less than a year but he is a bully and a pig!
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200416/933e0688b42cc161964e497e9ec7da06.jpg

[ThRoewer]

I had a number of Centropyge argi back in Germany, a couple of singles (all went mad) and a harem group of 4 which did fine. I do not remember how old they got but as pretty much the smallest angelfish species I would think they are rather short-lived (8 years max). It is definitely a good species for a smaller tank but you should keep them at a minimum as a pair. And they are definitely coral nippers.
I had a few other dwarf angels in the distant past but don't remember how long they lived.

[HumbleFish]

I one time got in a "Red Sea" Flameback that was red + black instead of the usual orange + blue. It died after a week or so, and I kick myself for not taking a photo (but this was 30 years ago). It came from Quality Marine, and I've never seen that variant since. :(

[Zionas]

I’m very tempted to try a Joculator angel, not sure about its ease of care. If that thing dies though, that’s 600-700 bucks gone.

[ThRoewer]

I’m very tempted to try a Joculator angel, not sure about its ease of care. If that thing dies though, that’s 600-700 bucks gone.

I would try a cheaper and easier angel first.

[Zionas]

I would try a cheaper and easier angel first.

Which ones would you personally suggest?

[ThRoewer]

Centropyge bispinosa is attractive, not particularly pricey, and not very difficult to keep. On top of that, it is available as captive-bred.

[Zionas]

Coral Beauty would be my choice if I could find a captive-bred specimen that can ship to China. The difficulty is, my LFS I’m not sure if they are willing to import from ORA or Biota Palau that breeds the captive bred Coral Beauties. They might think it’s too expensive. If I get a wild-caught specimen I’m especially worried it’s from Southeast Asia, which means cyanide poisoning.

[wildman926]

I have a coral beauty in my wife's 90g at 8 years old currently.

[Zionas]

I have a coral beauty in my wife's 90g at 8 years old currently.


Not bad! Keep going, hope it makes it beyond 10.

[Fiish]

I’m very tempted to try a Joculator angel, not sure about its ease of care. If that thing dies though, that’s 600-700 bucks gone.

Well, some guys here at RC have commented that the Joc's have adapted very well to captivity and are some eating machines. However, I agree that you should first try a more accessible angel in price and availability, apart from the coral beauty angel, is there any other accessible Centropyge that you like?

[Fiish]

According to the post, I have a C.loriculus for a little over three years, the guy has had a couple of complications but has come out ahead and is a big fat fish and extremely active.

[Zionas]

1. Flame Angel

2. Half-Black Angel

3. One of the Pygmy angels

4. Eibli Angel


Not sure about the hardiness of these?

[Timfish]

10 - 11 years is the maximum recorded for Centropyge in the wild (with some locations only being a year or two). So far my experinces have pretty much followed. I do have a couple exceptions though. I currently have a coral beauty bought in 2007 and I had a Lemon Peel for 14 years.

[ThRoewer]

10 - 11 years is the maximum recorded for Centropyge in the wild (with some locations only being a year or two). So far my experinces have pretty much followed. I do have a couple exceptions though. I currently have a coral beauty bought in 2007 and I had a Lemon Peel for 14 years.It actually depends on size: large species like C. bicolor get up to 18 years in the wild while the midsize species like C. loricula reach 8 years in the wild. The smaller species likely get less than that.
Species from cooler waters might also get older than tropical counterparts.
In captivity and with good care you may get a good number of additional years out of them because there are no predators who pick of the older ones that start to slow down in their reaction. So I would not be surprised to find captive specimen that reach twice the average age of those in the wild.

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[Fiish]

1. Flame Angel

2. Half-Black Angel

3. One of the Pygmy angels

4. Eibli Angel


Not sure about the hardiness of these?

All the specimens you mention do not have such a high level of maintenance requirements, once adapted they are quite resistant fish. By 'pygmy angels' you mean Centropyge argi?

[Zionas]

All the specimens you mention do not have such a high level of maintenance requirements, once adapted they are quite resistant fish. By 'pygmy angels' you mean Centropyge argi?

African Flameback, Brazilian Flameback, Pygmy Yellowtail too hehehe.

[wrott]

What he means is that all Centropyge are pygmy angels.
Sometimes people refer to the argi, as Cherub or Pygmy.
I had a Cherub 15yrs ago, they need alot of space, 75g, and are pretty aggressive.
I didnt list the Cherub earlier because it went carpet surfing.

[Fiish]

African Flameback, Brazilian Flameback, Pygmy Yellowtail too hehehe.

I understand, then you are referring to the 'argi complex', the group of smallest species in the entire genus Centropyge. You should have no problem with the difficulty of any of these specimens, only because of their aggressiveness, as already commented C. Argi is a small boy, in fact he is the smallest of all the dwarf angels, but he is not a pleasant subject when try to share a tank with other angels.

[Zionas]

Yeah I will only be keeping one per tank.

If I had a 6’ tank at least 140 gallons I would be willing to consider a Geniacanthus or maybe even a pair. Watanabei and Bellus are expensive and deepwater species that ship poorly, so I am more talking about a single Lamarck or Masked Swallowtail, or maybe a pair of Spotbreasts. Heard some of the Genicanthus are also relatively easy to keep, especially Lamarck’s and Spotbreast.

Where I am, most Chinese / Taiwanese aquarists give a good review of Lamarck’s, I haven’t seen much on Spotbreast but I’d assume is similar. ReefApp rates Lamarck’s and Spotbreast as “Hardy” among the genus. Chinese and Taiwanese hobbyists note the decompression issues for Watanabei’s and Bellus, not many have kept a Bellus but for Watanabei’s the general sentiment seems to be “not a hard fish if healthy.” Key word is... “healthy.”

[Fiish]

I have only had G.semifasciatus in previous years, I have never kept G.lamarck and G.melanospilos, but I'm sure they will not feel comfortable in less than 90 gallons. If you are in the USA you can have the opportunity to buy in DD, I'm in Mexico and unfortunately that cannot be possible, even so, I can get very good fish from QM, and quality matters too much when it comes to angelfish.

[Zionas]

Yeah, it’s really crucial to select the best specimens possible. How did you find yours? I see it’s your profile picture. What happened to it? Did you find it an easy and disease resistant species compared to the dwarf angels?

I am actually in China btw. Chinese hobbyist. Tank is 140 gallons.

Generally hobbyists where I am think Lamarck’s is easy, not sure about Spotbreast but I’d assume the same. They don’t think the Watanabei and Bellus species are necessarily hard, but they’ve noticed decompression issues as a hurdle as they’re the deep water gems in the genus. I haven’t read much about their opinion of the Masked Japanese Swallowtail, the one you had.

[Fiish]

Yeah, it’s really crucial to select the best specimens possible. How did you find yours? I see it’s your profile picture. What happened to it? Did you find it an easy and disease resistant species compared to the dwarf angels?

I am actually in China btw. Chinese hobbyist. Tank is 140 gallons.

Generally hobbyists where I am think Lamarck’s is easy, not sure about Spotbreast but I’d assume the same. They don’t think the Watanabei and Bellus species are necessarily hard, but they’ve noticed decompression issues as a hurdle as they’re the deep water gems in the genus. I haven’t read much about their opinion of the Masked Japanese Swallowtail, the one you had.

Unfortunately my G.semifasciatus passed away, yes, it is the one that you can see as my avatar. The story with this fish is a bit unusual, and it happened about 7 years ago. Here in Mexico we do not have many options to buy quality fish, but there are. The fish you see in my avatar, I asked a lfs with whom I had never asked for fish, I told him that I was looking for a female Spotbreast and when he told me that he had my fish, then I found a female G.semifasciatus. I honestly didn't feel ready for this fish, but it was already there, and it was for me, so I took it and threw it in my 90 gallon tank, and 3 days after pop eye disease, then here I get the answer for one of His questions, even though the other fish were fine, the quality of the water was not enough for my Genicanthus, and on the fourth day after having it, I was ready to take it out and start its treatment in a hospital tank and I just woke up dead. I learned that Genicanthus angels need great water quality and abundant waterflow. To be honest, I have no idea where they got this fish in my lfs, not to mention the owner's very bad knowledge, since he confused a G. melanospilos with G.semifasciatus, and paid what a Spotbreast is worth, so from that moment I realized there wasn't that much quality there, and I didn't get any kind of Genicanthus after that either. Compared to diseases I'm sure that any large angelfish is more sensitive to them, and since I got a fish vendor that gets quality fish, I have seen considerably higher prices, but it is also considerably higher quality, so it's worth paying for.

[Zionas]

Unfortunately my G.semifasciatus passed away, yes, it is the one that you can see as my avatar. The story with this fish is a bit unusual, and it happened about 7 years ago. Here in Mexico we do not have many options to buy quality fish, but there are. The fish you see in my avatar, I asked a lfs with whom I had never asked for fish, I told him that I was looking for a female Spotbreast and when he told me that he had my fish, then I found a female G.semifasciatus. I honestly didn't feel ready for this fish, but it was already there, and it was for me, so I took it and threw it in my 90 gallon tank, and 3 days after pop eye disease, then here I get the answer for one of His questions, even though the other fish were fine, the quality of the water was not enough for my Genicanthus, and on the fourth day after having it, I was ready to take it out and start its treatment in a hospital tank and I just woke up dead. I learned that Genicanthus angels need great water quality and abundant waterflow. To be honest, I have no idea where they got this fish in my lfs, not to mention the owner's very bad knowledge, since he confused a G. melanospilos with G.semifasciatus, and paid what a Spotbreast is worth, so from that moment I realized there wasn't that much quality there, and I didn't get any kind of Genicanthus after that either. Compared to diseases I'm sure that any large angelfish is more sensitive to them, and since I got a fish vendor that gets quality fish, I have seen considerably higher prices, but it is also considerably higher quality, so it's worth paying for.



I’m sorry for your loss. It seems you got the Red Sea species which from what I’ve read is more delicate than G. melanospilos and G. Lamarck. You must really miss that fish. I don’t plan to put in any angel until my water quality is stable, so I hope it all works out for me. So you’d say angels in general are a difficult fish?

[Fiish]

I’m sorry for your loss. It seems you got the Red Sea species which from what I’ve read is more delicate than G. melanospilos and G. Lamarck. You must really miss that fish. I don’t plan to put in any angel until my water quality is stable, so I hope it all works out for me. So you’d say angels in general are a difficult fish?

I have never considered angelfish easy to maintain, they all require a certain quality of water, a mature system and a lot of live rock for grazing. Being the genus Centropyge the ones that most pry on the rocks. Copps says that there is no angelfish difficult to maintain, rather difficult to adapt, a coral beauty angelfish, will not adapt with as much difficulty as a golden angelfish would, and in turn a multibarred angel is even more complicated to adapt . But in order for any of these fish to prosper, this is where the quality of the fish you buy comes in, and the system you have.

[Fiish]

A year ago I tried my luck with a multibarred angel, I have a mature system, but I received a fish from Indonesia, the specimens collected there are more complicated to adapt. So the fish never fed, and after 6 weeks in the tank he died. But I gave him a good amount of food, the behavior of the fish let me know that my water quality and system were fine, he swam all over the tank, and even became a little aggressive, he was an excellent specimen and I have a nice memory for keeping it.

[Zionas]

Many people seem to have trouble with Indonesian fish, it seems. I heard Centropyge angels from there, maybe the Philippines too, are at a higher risk of being collected using cyanide compared to some other species or types of fish. Sorry for your loss, regardless. I’m surprised it lasted 6 weeks without feeding.

I’ll be adding an angel or two towards the end of my stocking plan. Before that, I’ll be having fish like a One-Spot Foxface, my pair of Black and White Ocellaris Clowns, pair of Flame Hawks, Marine Betta and maybe a trio of Pajama Cardinals.

Would six months be enough for a system to include any angel, or would you wait a year? Thanks. Do you think I need a refugium for Centropyge, Genicanthus or any angel?

[Fiish]

What do you mean by refuge? Refuge in the sump? IMO, 6 months should be enough for a medium or less demanding angel, this includes some Genicanthus of course. For more demanding angels (Pygoplites, Paracentropyge, etc) I would wait 1 year to add them.

[Zionas]

Sorry. Spell check can be a pain. I meant refugium. Great, looking forward to adding angels after 6 months.

Do all angels need to be fed multiple times a day?

[Fiish]

Sorry. Spell check can be a pain. I meant refugium. Great, looking forward to adding angels after 6 months.

Do all angels need to be fed multiple times a day?

I'm not sure if it's obligatory to use a refugium, but a skimmer is, when planning to have multiple angels. I feed my fish about 4 times a day, in portions that are capable of eating in a couple of minutes, little food is wasted. Once again I will quote something I learned reading the copps experiences, when he has an angelfish in QT, he feeds about 10 times a day, this gives the fish the opportunity to create an excellent fat reserve.

[Fiish]

As a side note, I am planning to use miracle mud in my sump on my future 180G tank, could someone tell me how good is this? I have only read and seen some refugiums like this, and there are good comments about it. They say that miracle mud is a great product, how much can help in the quality of water for angelfishes mainteance?

[Timfish]

It actually depends on size: large species like C. bicolor get up to 18 years in the wild while the midsize species like C. loricula reach 8 years in the wild. The smaller species likely get less than that.
Species from cooler waters might also get older than tropical counterparts.
In captivity and with good care you may get a good number of additional years out of them because there are no predators who pick of the older ones that start to slow down in their reaction. So I would not be surprised to find captive specimen that reach twice the average age of those in the wild.

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Good to know! Thank You! It's been a couple years since I checked the research on their life expectancies. Can you post your links for the research. I'm sure it would be of interest for a lot of aquarists

[Zionas]

From what I’ve read under good conditions it’s pretty normal for the 4” Centropyge angels to live over 10 years.

What I find interesting is C. tibbicien is classified as a Centropyge but it’s the same size as many of the medium sized angels and the Yelllow Tang. Larger than most of the Bristletooth Tangs. I would expect C. tibicien’s lifespan to approach or exceed 20 years, if we go by this study.

Wouldn’t be surprised if even the medium sized angels like Apolemichthys, Chartodonpolus, and Genicanthus can approach or exceed 20 years in captivity.

Once we get to the large-Large angels, I assume we’d be looking at 30 or 35+.



Here are my estimates for the lifespans of some of the fish I’ll be including:

Pajama Cardinal 10-15 years

Ocellaris Clowns 20-30 years

Marine Betta 30-40 years

Royal Gramma ~10 years

One-Spot Foxface 20-25 years (relative of the Tangs, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s just as long lived as the Tangs)

Flame Hawkfish 15-20 years

Genicanthus spp. (Watanabei- 13 to 18 years, Bellus / Spotbreast-15 to 20 years, 8” and above including Lamarck’s 20-25 years)

Yellow Tang 25-35 years

Cthenochaetus spp. 15-25 years

Xanthurus Cream Angelfish 20-25 years

Yellow Candy Hogfish 10-12 years



My estimates for the Centropyges:

-Dwarf 8-12 years

-4 to 5” angels 10-15 years

-Larger Centropyge (6” and larger) 13-18 years

[Fiish]

In fact, C. tibicen is considered the original dwarf angel, due to the original guidelines on its dorsal spines and anal fin, C. flavissima, C. eibli and C. vrolikii are supposedly added in this group. Note the similarities in their ichthyology, in theory they are considered the original Centropyge.