Cycling with TBS start to finish

[landlord]

Greetings,

Being that I am new to the saltwater world and that I scored some killer TBS liverock, and have no idea when it'll be time to get the second shipment, I thought that maybe I'd let the pros out there watch my cycle and maybe provide some insight / advice. <-- Big run on sentence. hahaha.

I figure it would also give people an idea of how long it takes to cycle with TBS LR/LS.

As an added benefit, Richard will know when the phone calls from me are gonna start for my next load ;) .

Anyhow I figure that I would post a daily log of the status of the tank conditions. I got this computer program to help track the cycle and since I got my rock yesterday I will have to post for yesterday. The tank is 75 gallons with approx 5 more gallons in the large canister filtration system. Let me dig up yesterday from the puter and I'll be back with the post.

-Landlord

[landlord]

11/22/03

Have had the LR/LS in the tank for about 6 hours now. Added the freebie bacteria (Thanks Richard) and turned on the canisters. Do not have the skimmer running, per Richards instruction. Will turn that on tomorrow.

Results:

Date/Time: 11/22/03 10:02 PM
Temp: 82 degrees
Ph: 8.4
Salinity: 1.021
Alkalinity: Normal (The RedSea test kit kinda blows for this test. No specific measurables just low, normal, and high).
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0

Notes:

Having difficulty getting the temperature to stay balanced. The darn halides increased the temp 5 degrees. Gonna try and add another big fan before I suck it up and get a chiller. My family is mesmerized by the mantis shrimp. Got Hy's trap in there with some holes drilled into the base to accomodate flow. Gotta get that odor moving.

-landlord

[landlord]

11/23/03 - Day 2

Results:

Date/Time: 11/23/03 8:14 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.3
Salinity: 1.022
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: .30
Nitrite: .15
Nitrate: 5

Notes:

Started the skimmer today. Overflowed it onto the floor, lame. Family still captivated by the little clicking dude in the tank. Never having gone through a cycle before, I'm not sure if the numbers look right? I will have to play it by ear.

-landlord

[OrchidMan]

Originally posted by landlord
11/22/03
Having difficulty getting the temperature to stay balanced. The darn halides increased the temp 5 degrees. Gonna try and add another big fan before I suck it up and get a chiller. My family is mesmerized by the mantis shrimp. Got Hy's trap in there with some holes drilled into the base to accomodate flow. Gotta get that odor moving.

-landlord

Since the TBS rock comes from a relatively deep depth, you may want to chill out with the MH's for some time. The rock you are getting right now is used to moderate lighting.
Did you talk to Richard about this?
We received an anemone with our second shipment and the poor thing has been having a heck of a time finding a place it likes and we have 190 VHO watts in a 50 gal tank.

Gary

[landlord]

I agree. Until I can find a solution (money for the chiller) it's just the PC's. I never did talk to Richard about the light intensity. Thanks for the info. Eventually I will need to get them acclimated but there is no rush. I have several weeks before I will need to come up with some sort of solution

-Kurt

[hdtran]

Ditto lights; if I remember TBS's web site, they say that they just run VHO's.

How close are your MH's to your water surface, and do you have any fans going? If you've got fans, you ought to have significant evaporative cooling, and shouldn't get that huge a temperature rise.

In any case you shouldn't run your lights more than 5 hrs/day while cycling (trying to avoid algae blooms, etc.)

The chemistry looks fine. Once your ammonia gets near 1.0, hit the panic button, and do a massive water change. (I wouldn't bother at 0.25 or 0.30; I might bother at 0.5, I would bother at 0.75). Your nitrites should also go away fairly quickly.

I seeded my tank with some gravel from my older FOwLR tank, and I undersized my package w/r/t the tank, so my ammonia never went above 0.25, and my nitrites/nitrates always remained undetectable. (Of course, that could also mean my test kit is screwed up :eek: )

Hy

[landlord]

Here is the low down on the lights. They are seated approximately 12 inches off of the water surface. The Tank does not have a glass lid it is completely open. The DIY canopy has no back. I have two Custom Sealife fans blowing against the lights. I was going to go out this weekend and get one of those clip on fans to try and get more air moving around. The SeaLife fans are not that great, or perhaps I have just mounted them in such a way as to not draw much air across the tank.

That is good news on the chemistry. I will continue to monitor an update the thread.

Thanks for the info

-landlord

[hdtran]

(a) make sure your thermometer isn't directly under the lights. You're trying to measure the water temperature, and you don't want radiative transfer from the lights to the thermometer!
(b) I don't know what the Sealife fans are, but if you can reposition them to point at the water surface, that really should get you lots of evaporative cooling (of course, you'll have to add more make up water).

Being both conscientious with testing your water and reporting it is great!

Oh, and show us some pictures ;)

[kaiyokanman28]

Your salinity looks to be just a tad low at 1.021. It should hover right around the 1.024 or 1.025 range. Otherwise, the rest of your params look fine.

Cheers!

Andy :wildone:

[Dazz]

oooo... hmmm....
Ok, so the first 2 days I had the lights on only 5 hours a day, but the 3rd day I had them on all day...

I only have PC lights (96w, 1 white tube, 1 blue tube), but also have had 0 ammonia increase and negligable nitrate increase. (I did have some live rock and some critters in the tank for a month before putting the TBS in there so in my wet/dry I think there is plenty of established bacteria)...

Do you think the lights being on would be a bad thing... I turned them on after seeing that my PH had decreased from normal (I know when the lights are on the PH will increase) so I put the lights back on a 12 hour schedual.

[landlord]

Thanks for the info

HDTran - I will be repositioning the lights more towards the location of the water. I check the tank so much I shouldn't have a problem adding a bit more water here and there. This may be a good time for that DIY top of kit with the float valve. The thermometer is one of those (sticky tape me on the outside of the tank) kind and it is a the bottom of the glass. I think repositioning the fans would be very helpful. The are blowing horizontally without hitting the water surface.

Kaiyokanman28 - Not to question the wise and not to offend, but the hydromters that I have two of them. Accidental double birthday present both have an "ideal zone" nidicated on them and 1.025 is towards the upper end of that zone. What have I missed. The middle of the zone is 1.0215. I think I may have missed this important bit. Can you give me more info on salinity that I might not be getting. Any info would be greatly appreciated because maintaining salinity is about the only think I can do pretty good right now and it would be pretty easy top bring it up.

Dazz - I think that the freebie bacteria that Richard at TBS gave me really got the cycle off to a bang. The whole light problem I am having is getting confusing. Not really sure what I should do. In the meantime I came up with an inventive solution to keep the temp under control. Believe it or not it involves my LEGO's. I have the Mindstorm kit, which if you haven't heard of them, is like PC controlled legos. I have an infrared tower which can beam commands to a control unit (all LEGO). The control unit is running to the temperature sensor (also LEGO). The PC send commands to check the temp and when it reaches 82 it engages a motor (once again LEGO) to switch of the light. It is pretty MacGyver but I needed a solution and this one popped up. It is actually more reliable than my kids or wofe for that matter! LOL.

Thanks Everyone!

[hdtran]

Dump the sticky-tape-thermometer, and replace it with an in-tank thermometer.

The sticky-on-the-outside thermometers measure some combination of tank wall temperature and air temperature, which is a lousy way of measuring water temperature.

The "float in the tank" thermometers are a bit of a pain because they never face you, but they are much more reliable.

Normal Sea Water (NSW), if I recall correctly, is on the order of 1.024-1.026 (too lazy to go upstairs & check CMA book). Many folks who run FOwLR run a bit light on the specific gravity, and many (most) LFS's run very light on the SG. Specific gravity also is a function of temperature, but that gets very complicated. Your SG will read a bit low if your temperature is high.

I run my saltwater at 1.024 SG.

Hy

[Bruddah Chrispy]

Originally posted by landlord
Thanks for the info
Kaiyokanman28 - Not to question the wise and not to offend, but the hydromters that I have two of them. Accidental double birthday present both have an "ideal zone" nidicated on them and 1.025 is towards the upper end of that zone. What have I missed. The middle of the zone is 1.0215. I think I may have missed this important bit. Can you give me more info on salinity that I might not be getting. Any info would be greatly appreciated because maintaining salinity is about the only think I can do pretty good right now and it would be pretty easy top bring it up.
Thanks Everyone!

I also aim for a SG of 1.025 at a temperature of 79-82. Unfortunately I can't remember the original source for this. It was either Fenner's book or an on-line article concerning the average salinity and temperature of the world's coral reefs.

[landlord]

Suprise

Well what would the day be if it weren't for suprises. My girlfriend with a keen eye for pretty things decided that the kinda ugly rock stuff, as she sees it, needed a bit of sprucing up. I came home from work and to my amazement, out of a cave in the liverock popped a bouncing baby Koran Angel followed in tow by some sorta half blue half gold damsels. So I am off to the pet store to either take them back or purchase another tank. Hopefully this only added to the cycle and did no permanent damage (except for the liverock munchies had by the Angel).

- Bless her heart, see did mean well.

[hdtran]

Are you absolutely sure the angel & damsels (probably yellow-tailed blue damsels) aren't hitchhikers with the live rock? :cool:

[landlord]

No they came from the LFS. She told me so. She was so very happy.

[landlord]

11/24/03 - Day 4

Results:

Date/Time: 11/24/03 9:15 PM
Temp: 82 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.024
Alkalinity: Normal / High
Ammonia: .30
Nitrite: .2
Nitrate: 5

Notes:

Aside from the suprise fish which I cannot capture nor do I have a home for yet, all seems to be going smooth. If all else fails these puppies could be up for grabs. The LFS they were purchased from is going out of business and isn't being cooperative with a return. They will do a trade but there is nothing left in their inventory of dry goods that I could even use. They seem to have plenty of ferret costumes and kitty litter but these don't help the cause.

-landlord

[landlord]

Finally captured all of the suprise fish and now have them in their temporary 10 gal holding tank. Had to remove all of the liverock to get them. Since I had the liverock outta the tank, I figured I'd go after my little clicking friend, a.k.a. daMantis. I tried placing the LR in tub of highly saline water. All this did was root out a dozen or so crabs and starfish. I imagine daMantis holed up in the rock giving my the middle claw or something. I'd really really like to get the guy out. If anyone has any success stories or suggestions on this topic please let me know.

-landlord

[kaiyokanman28]

Hello again, Landlord!

Nope, you didn't offend, nor do I consider myself a guru. :) I was just told long ago that for a reef tank you should have your salinity right around 1.025 or so. So I took the advice to heart, and was never sorry that I did. Also, just as my Big Kahuna Bruddah Chrispy pointed out, natural seawater has a salinity of 1.025 - 1.026. As it's directly from the Gulf of Mexico that TBS rock comes from, I thought it best to keep the salinity right around that level.

I chuckled when you mentioned that your girlfriend, bless her heart, went out and bought you all those fish. She's a keeper, as any girlfriend would be who understands and supports our reefkeeping hobby. :) Though...three days into your initial cycle, as you already figured out, is definitely too soon to introduce fish into the new reef system. :D The Koran Angel is a gorgeous fish, especially when it's a juvenile, which is what I'm sure your girlfriend was thinking and probably bought you a juvenile. Unfortunately, even with a 75 gallon, it's a tight fit for a Koran Angel. They recommend that you have at least a 100 gallon. Since your LFS won't take the fish back, put out the call to any of the local reefers in your area and see if any of them want the Angel and the Damselfish she bought. I've found from experience that there's ALWAYS someone in the area who will take fish and corals off your hands if you want to part with them.

Finally, I winced when I read that you did a hyper-salinity dip with your live rock to get out the hitch-hikers. I hope you didn't do too much damage when you did that. When I bought my TBS Package, Rich and Mary specifically told me I should never do that as it would kill the sponges and other beneficial life. I have also found that the 2 or 3 mantis shrimp that came in as hitch-hikers have not been nearly the terror that everyone makes them out to be. I've even caught one of them when I saw him crawl into a tunnel in a small piece of rock that I could easily remove and just prod him with a probe to get him to come out the other side and into a separate holding container. I've tried traps and they haven't worked all that well so far. But I ended up sending the captured mantis to a guy who wanted him out in Iowa, so everyone was happy and I didn't have to squash the mantis.

But try to avoid doing the hyper-salinity or hypo-salinity dips. You run the risk of losing your sponges.

Cheers!

Andy :wildone:

[landlord]

11/25/03 - Day 4 (I goofed on the last one and put the wrong day)

Results:

Date/Time: 11/25/03 7:39 PM
Temp: 80 degrees
Ph: 7.8
Salinity: 1.022
Alkalinity: High
Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: .3
Nitrate: 7.5

Notes:

Tank seems to be gettfing lower on Ph and higher in Alkalinity. This has me a bit disturbed. Advise or commentary would be welcomed, or at the very least calming. After yesterdays incident with the suprise fish, who now have their own tank, I am nervous that the disturbance I placed on the tank could be very harmful. I guess with anything time will tell. Everyone have a great evening, keep reefin'.

Thanks for the info andy! I am slowly raising the SG athough the stats don't show it. Should be up their in short order. All of the comments received have been greatly appreciated and welcome. I think on my own, I would screw with things so much I would never be able to just sit around and just stare.

-landlord

[hdtran]

Don't sweat the pH too much (yet). What's happening is that your ammonia (which is basic) is slowly going down, while nitrite and nitrate ions (negative ions, release H+ ion in water, e.g. acidic) are going up. Your substrate hasn't caught up with buffering out your chemistry yet. If your hypersalinity treatment has killed anything, it's only macrofauna (e.g. sponges, cup corals, tunicates). It hasn't killed your bacteria, nor has it affected your live sand. Those are the important 'critters' for cycling your tank.

The important thing to observe is that the ammonia is beginning to go down (I do assume your tests are accurate, or at least, repeatable, to the significant digits that you are reporting) while both nitrite and nitrate are rising.

Easy for me to say, of course, since it's not my tank. If it were my tank, I might either throw in a teaspoon of buffer (I have both Kent buffer, which is a liquid, and SeaChem, which is a powder) or do a 25% water change (I know people will argue that this slows the cycle, but I'm patient).

[landlord]

Thanks for the info Hy! I do have some buffer but didn't really know what to do with it. I will do a bit of research in that area and perhaps give it a shot.

Thanks Again!

-landlord

[PRC]

Ditto to Andy's comments on the Mantis. I managed to get one out of my tank (a pure accident and not really a reproducable procedure) and still have two or three in the tank. They don't really seem to bother anything except maybe eating a hermit or two if they get hungry. My advice is just to try to keep them well fed. The ones in my tank actually come out at feeding time and take food directly from my feeding tongs.
I picked up my rock in Tampa as well and I never really had much of a cycle with my first batch. The ammonia never got above .5 and nitrites were barely detectable for a brief period.
You can add the buffer by mixing it with your evaporation makeup water.
I know Richard doesn't advise this but I would put the second batch in a separate container with a powerhead and airstone for a few days when you get it. I did that mainly because I didn't have the time to arrange it in my tank. I was very glad I didn't put it directly in the tank though since there must have been something on it that died and caused a pretty major ammonia spike (and corresponding stink) in the rubbermaid tub that it was in.
JMO, but before I invested in a chiller for the 75, I think I'd sell the halides and the PC's and buy T5's.

[landlord]

11/26/03 - Day 5

Results:

Date/Time: 11/26/03 9:09 PM
Temp: 80 degrees
Ph: 8.0
Salinity: 1.024
Alkalinity: Normal / High
Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: .2
Nitrate: 10

Notes:

Thanks for the info about the mantis PFC. I just might let him hang around. I figure I am bound to get another one when I get the second shipment from TBS anyhow. I do not think I am quite ready to throw in the towel on the halides just yet. I put a 7 inch fan in the canopy and aside from a bit more evaporation, the temp seems stable. I was able to run the halides with the PC's for 6 hours without any temperature increase. Tank seems to be very happy.

I know it is probably extremely premature to ask but it is bound to come up sooner or later. "When does one know when his cycle is complete?" Pretty open ended question but I need something to look forward to beside taking chemical tests everyday.

Thanks again everyone for reading, commenting, advising, etc..

-landlord

[landlord]

Gonna try and post a pic. If it doesn't look to terrible I will put up some more.

-landlord

[landlord]

oops

[hdtran]

Wow, Kurt, you got good macro algae there! Your algae will uptake (take up?) your nitrates, unless you've got another limiting nutrient. Hopefully, they'll also outcompete diatoms and/or cyano.

You know that your cycle is complete when both the ammonia and the nitrites have dropped to zero (0.0). Your nitrates won't be zero, but that's all right. Anything under 10ppm nitrate is generally considered all right for a reef setup.

Again, with TBS, people's experience have been 7-14 days before ammonia & nitrites drop to zero. Hang in there, you've only been at it since 11/22!

For what it's worth, my second half package showed a detectable (but not measurable) rise in ammonia 1-2 days after receipt, and dropped back to zero. Nitrites and nitrates are also zero.

Hint of the day: Don't brine your turkey in your aquarium...

;)

[landlord]

Thanks for the tidbit Hy. I am really happy with that macro algae. The picture does not do it justice. The new growth is like a forest green color. It is really nice to pick out your own rock because you can hunt down the cool pieces. On another note I am one step closer to catching the mantis. I have been feeding him small pieces of raw shrimp from the end of a bamboo skewer. He will run across the tank for it. He only seems active in the morning when I first turn on the halides. He is getting more used to the trap but hasn't ventured inside yet. I think it is only a matter of time.

I figured the cycling process would take some time I just wanted the info so I could "See the light at the end of the tunnel" so to speak.

Happy Thanksgiving All!

-kurt

[Dazz]

did you have to entice him out for the shrimp... as in starting close to his cave and getting further and further away?

[landlord]

I totally had to intice him out at first. Once he got a taste for the fresh meat, he was all over it. Like a moth to flame. He did however get 'full' and stopped coming out. But at least he stopped smashing at the little barnacle things for the rest of the day.

-landlord

[landlord]

11/27/03 - Day65

Results:

Date/Time: 11/27/03 8:09 PM
Temp: 80 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.024
Alkalinity: Normal / High
Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: .15
Nitrate: 8

Notes:

Tanks seems to be doing good. Not too happy with the test kit I have. It seems to leave far too much room for human judgement / error. My better half slipped in three Mushroom Polyps on me today. I have no place else to put them so they will have to take their chances.

Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving!

-Landlord

[hdtran]

My better half slipped in three Mushroom Polyps on me today

You need to perform a pre-emptive strike on your BH ASAP! Give her a copy of either John Tullock's "Natural Reef Aquariums" or Bob Fenner's "Conscientious Marine Aquarist", fast , before you're surprised again! ;)

One more thing: Don't feed the tank (or the animals in the tank) for a while. They'll all survive a few days of starvation, and you won't be putting in food, which either falls to the bottom & turns into ammonia, or is eaten by your mantis, which digests it & turns it into ammonia. Go ahead & let your mantis kill a few of your barnacles, it's not like you'll run out of barnacles before the cycle is complete.

p.s. We've never had good luck with either fresh or large turkeys; the best turkey we ever had was a 12 lb. chemically injected frozen variety. This year, we tried marinating the turkey in a brine bath (~3/4 to 1 cup salt to 1 gallon water, plus herbs, etc.) overnight before baking. This, of course, is about twice normal salinity, so we couldn't use our aquarium for brining (though I think we'd have picked up some cool hitchhikers on the turkey). The results were actually very good. The breast meat stayed moist & tender, which is usually our problem.

[landlord]

Roger that on the BH. I am trying to get her new (becuase she is addicted to fish now) tank up and running on an extremely limited budget. She managed to score a 55 gal tank and stand. I have been running around trying to wrangle up the other necessities to get it running for her. I think that she has already picked out the next 60 fish she plans to get, and the curtains to match! Sheesh!

I have never brined a turkey before but I hear that it is the way to go for moistness. Glad it worked out for you.

Hy - Do you have any posts up on your aquafuge. I would be interested in the info. I like the idea of natural filtration / nitrate removal. My space is limited and I would most likely have to keep it in the tank stand.

thanks

-kurt

[hdtran]

No pictures or post on my Aquafuge 24 yet. It's new, and I just had to empty it (fortunately, before putting any plants in) because one of the crossbraces was not glued in correctly. CPR Aquatics said, 'take it out before it springs a leak; talk to your dealer about a replacement, if no satisfaction there, come to us.' It's the Thanksgiving holiday, so I'll let everyone turkey-out until Monday. Before I shut it off, water flow through it looked fine. If you have a custom or DIY hood that handles MH lighting, you should be able to install a hang-on-back refugium pretty easily.

Since you're running a sump on your tank, you can divide your sump in half, and have a low-flow refugium in your sump (if you want macroalgae & pods). If you just want natural nitrate reduction, consider setting up a remote DSB or Jaubert plenum in your sump (seed it with a scoop or two of live sand from the display tank). There's a nice article about the Jaubert system in the archives of the "Advanced Aquarist" online magazine; that's how I set up my tank.

[Dazz]

hahaha I wish my better half would buy me stuff!

[landlord]

11/27/03 - Day 7

Results:

Date/Time: 11/28/03 7:42 PM
Temp: 80 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.024
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: .20
Nitrite: .10
Nitrate: 8

Notes:

Everything is running smooth. I chopped off some really disgusting looking white dead sponges. The actually obliterated themselves before I could remove the whole piece from the tank. I got out a couple large hunks of yuck however. Nothing seems to want to leap into my trap. It must be a conspiracy. The algae is getting heavier and heavier. The tank is really blooming in the stuff. This disturbs me but I do not know why. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? More and more little feather duster things keep creeping out and appearing. I like them a lot.

Thanks for the fuge / Jaubert method info. I think I need to put my nose in the books a bit more to really find out what I can do or what I want for that matter. It is unfortunate that money doesn't grow like the algae in my tank, because there is a lot of neat toys in the reef world that I would love to have. I am fortunate that I bought a house this year, the IRS should be better than usual come tax season. Yippie!!! more toys.

Thanks for reading!

-landlord

[hdtran]

If we trust your test kit to the 2nd decimal place, you notice that the ammonia and nitrite are trending downwards, which is good.

Interesting to note that your alkalinity went from normal/high to normal. Are you also testing calcium? If you're planning on keeping corals, you'll need to test calcium. When alkalinity drops, calcium also usually goes down.

Note also that nitrates feed macroalgae (actually, microalgae too, but it's better to have macroalgae, because (a) you can feed it to a tang, and (b) you can just cut pieces off & throw them out!).

So, if you don't like the way your macroalgae look, just put a pair of (stainless steel) scissors to them. Manually operated, please! (No electric lawnmowers or hairclippers, please!) Fortunately, if you overcut, the algae just grows back (like hair, except for us balding folks :mixed: )

My tank stats at day 22 (7 days past part II):

pH 8.0 (down from 8.2 3 days ago)
Ammonia: .0 (my kit goes .0, .25, .5, 1.0, 2.0, 4.0)
Nitrite: .0
Nitrate: 0
Alkalinity: Between 2.5 and 3.0 meq/l (down from 3.0 5 days ago)
Calcium: 450-500 (down from 500+ 10 days ago)

The pH may be a day/night issue; I normally test my water in the afternoons; today, I tested just after I got up. But because the alkalinity is also somewhat down, I'm assuming that something is metabolizing, so I'll add 4 tsps of Seachem buffer over the next two days (2 tsps each day with make up water). Note that the alkalinity is at NSW level, but most books recommend having high alkalinity (essentially, buffering capacity).

In your case, because you're testing alkalinity, I'd also test calcium.

[catdoc]

Landlord, hubby and I LOVED the lego mindstorm solution! My husband is a electrical/software design engineer and had gotten into the mindstorm by way of his "homework". Now I can have him put it to a GOOD use! LOL

I'm just getting started so I'm keeping an eye on how your start-up is going. Best wishes,

Christy

[landlord]

I missed a night in the testing. Had some other fires brewing around the house. I will be posting the results shortly.

catdoc - off the top of your head why would all of my four cats upper and lower front teeth be falling out? Are they just really inbred. Hate to catch you on the spot so feel free to ignore that one but I have always been curious about it. There is pobably another message board for cats???

Anyways - off to testing

-landlord

[landlord]

11/30/03 - Day 9

Results:

Date/Time: 11/30/03 8:09 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.0
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: .1
Nitrite: .05
Nitrate: 9

Notes:

Tank is just doing awesome. A hoard of small crustaceans seemed to have crawled out of nowhere. I cut the lights down to just a couple hours a day and my algae problem is no longer increasing. Had to buy a bigger fishtank for the (suprise honey!) fish. The ten gallon wasn't cutting it. The new tank is a 29 BF. Not much bigger but it cannot be any worse. It was really all part of my secret plan to get the 10 gallon for Hy's octopus. <insert subliminal message to Hy to ship me the octo>. I got four toothless balinese cats for trade...

This thread is really getting a lot of attention. I'd like to thank everyone again for checking back and commenting and such. Doing this alone would be very painful and not as enjoyable as it has become.

-landlord

[PRC]

landlord, I was going to warn you about the sponges when I saw your photo earlier on in the thread but I guess you found out anyway. IME most, if not all of the finger type sponges didn't make it long term. I still have a few lingering at about three months but even they seem to be on their way out. The sponges that seem to be doing fine are the yellow/orange ball sponges, the viscous sponges (sort of flesh colored with little lumps on them) and the orange encrusting sponges (although these don't appear to fare very well in even moderate light). There are also some black sponges that seem to be doing ok.
I'd give the tank at least two weeks before starting to worry about it being cycled. I'm sure someone already mentioned it but your ammonia and nitrites should not register on the test kit. You may want to try a couple kinds of different test kits if you're paranoid like me. My ammonia test was not very easy to read (Salifert) so I borrowed a kit from a friend to get a baseline.
On the surprises, I don't want to sound lecturing or anything, but please, please get a copy of Bob Fenner's "Conscientious Marine Aquarist" and share it with your BH. I understand the urge to buy all the new and beautiful creatures we see at the LFS. However, as Bob's book explains, unfortunately many of these creatures are ill suited for captivity in general and many others have very special care requirements. Also unfortunately, you'll find by perusing these boards that most LFs's are not very good at providing information on the livestock which they sell. I know my stocking list changed pretty significantly after reading a few books.
Good luck with the mantis. Just remember, they're smarter than we are. You might want to post on the Mantis forum to see if you can find someone local to take it off your hands if you don't want it. I'd personally recommend setting up a small tank for it, they're incredibly interesting creatures.
The other (nastier, IMO) hitchhiker to watch out for is the Hairy Crab (there's a blurry picture in my gallery). They'll eat your snails and hermits when they get big enough. The clinging crabs don't seem too bad, but I have caught them harassing my rose coral. The Porcelain Crabs are filter feeders and won't bother anything.
Overall, best advice I can offer is sit back and enjoy. Patience is probably one of the most important aspects of this hobby. I've had my TBS LR for over three months now and I'm still discovering new creatures almost daily.
Paul

[hdtran]

Your ammonia & nitrites are going down, great!

When they're both zero, you're ready for stage 2.

I agree w/ Paul (PRC) re sponges, but I find that the tank has so many bacteria & whatnot that when the sponges die, there's little (or no) harm to the chemistry. I think of the dying sponges as pod-food :)

For baseline on ammonia test kit, I just test some freshly made saltwater (should have no ammonia!).

[landlord]

12/01/03 - Day 10

Results:

Date/Time: 12/01/03 7:39 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.0
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: .00
Nitrite: .00
Nitrate: 10

Notes:

I cannot get a register on either ammonia or nitrite. I do believe that the test kit is probably lacking in the "fine tune" department. I agree with your reply PRC, on all of your suggestions. I have been looking around trying to find a good resource for knowledge bookwise. With all of the suggestions I have been receiving it looks to be an expensive endeavour. I will do what I can in that arena. I have found that I have gotten some pretty darm good advise from this site as well. Caring and knowledgable people are it's biggest strength. On another note the BH is not feeling so good about her recent suprise. I propmted her to do some research of her own and she did not like her conclusions. She has also learned that the LFS she went to was looking for the quick buck and did not give the soundest advise. Not to mention they are going out of business and pulling out of the state of Florida all together. Looking forward to seeing the pictures of the good and bad crabs for a comparison. I think that I could be in good shape. I am not going to spend a lot of effort trying to root out the mantis shrimp that now inhabit the tank. I have done more harm to the well being of my tank trying to get them out then the dying sponges have done. Hy, I took your advise and did a side by side comparison of pure water to my tank and still cannot see any measureable difference between the two. PRC, not to step on your toes because I value all of the comments / suggestions that I receive, but if the chemistry remains on this same trend does anyone think getting the second shipment in 5 days sound like a bad idea? Lemme know your thoughts, and as always, many thanks.

-landlord

[hdtran]

Kurt,

Your chemistry is ready to go for TBS Package Part Deux (why do I feel like a bad movie sequel?). Richard's back from his vacation & going off to get a bunch more rocks, so next weekend should be good for you--unless, of course, you're queued up behind more customers :D

Enjoy!

p.s. Book recommendations: John Tullock's 'Your First Saltwater Aquarium' is inexpensive, and not half bad either. I've heard good things about his 'Natural Reef Aquariums.' I have 'YFSA' somewhere, buried among all the other stuff. I also have a copy of Bob Fenner's 'Conscientious Marine Aquarist'; excellent; aimed at the not-so-complete-novice, and Fenner/Calfo's 'Reef Invertebrates.' 'RI' is somewhat biased towards indo-pacific (and Fiji) rock, as opposed to aquacultured FL rock, but the bulk of the book is about critters, as opposed to rock. It doesn't cover corals or anemones, though. Eric Borneman has a book called 'Aquarium Corals.' If you can't find them at the LFS or LBS (Local Bookstore), Amazon always works. www.reefs.org has a 'library' section with book recommendations, and click-thru-links. Most of the Reefcentral sponsors also carry many of these books. We will quiz both you & 'Surprise, honey!' on the books, so get reading!
:p

[landlord]

Thanks for the reading info folks. I will add these to the Christmas list. I caught wind of Richards reply to a post about being in the key till Wed / Thurs. I think I will give him a call later on to see what he has in stock.

Thanks Again!

-kurt

[landlord]

12/02/03 - Day 11

Results:

Date/Time: 12/02/03 7:39 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.1
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: .00
Nitrite: .00
Nitrate: 13

Notes:

All is still looking well. Got the 7 inch fan blowing on the water surface along with the 2 3.5 inchers. No temperature rise at all. It is most glorious. I should have just saved 50 bucks and bought 2 of the 7 inch desk fans and said screw the 3.5 inch ones. They are useless.

-landlord

[kashmir]

Landlord

Your tank looks great. I got my first shipment from Richard on 11/24. and have requested my 2nd shipment . I'll bring in my test results and post them tomoorow, but they look very similiar to yours. Understand the BH issue. Fortunately mine had and lost a FO tank.

[PRC]

Kurt,
No need to worry about my toes ;) . I was really anxious to get my second batch of rock too. I think your numbers look great and IMO you should be fine to go if you don't see any ammonia or nitrite for a few more days.
I agree with Hy on the sponges, though I've got ~260G of water in my system so a dying sponge or two probably wouldn't have much impact. Sounds as though it's not causing problems for Hy with a bit less volume in his system.
You can see my pictures in my gallery by clicking on the little camera above this post. Pictures of all three crab types included. Problem with the crabs IME is that the good ones (porcelain's and clinging (actually the clinging crabs can be a little obnoxious at times)) hang out in the open all the time where you can see them. The bad ones (the hairy crabs) hide in the rockwork and burrow under the rocks, it's almost as if they know they're unwanted.
Definitely a good idea to invest in some reading material. I'm partial to Bob Fenner's "Conscientiou Marine Aquarist" as an all around best 'getting started' book. I've read about seven or eight of that type of book and that one seems to be the best IMO. The Calfo/Fenner "Reef Invertebrates" book is pretty good too, although a little narrower in scope and I agree with Hy's comments about the aquaculture rock discrimination :mad: . One of these days I'm going to get around to writing those guys on that one, it bothered me a bit since I'm a big proponent of aquacultured LR. A cheaper option is a book by Mike Paletta though I can't recall the name at the moment.
Good luck with the second batch and look forward to hearing about it.
Paul

[hdtran]

I'm concerned about your nitrates for long term. Your inverts (except the hardier snails) are not going to like nitrates at 13ppm.

You might want to perform a pre-emptive water change just before the "Package II" arrives, and a second pre-emptive water change two days after.

I'm a bit surprised that your macroalgae is not sucking up your nitrates, though. My TBS tank never spiked detectable nitrates (and I know my kit works, because my FOwLR has between 5-10 ppm, and I can see the colors).

So, if you've got mixed, warm, well-aged (well, at least 24 hrs aged) water, do a 25% water change just before the new rock comes in (which will bring your nitrates down to about 9 ppm), and a second 25% change a couple of days later (hopefully bring nitrates down to 6 ppm). Then, think about doing something to keep the nitrates at 10ppm or below long term.

[okiebones]

I'm just getting ready to get my 2nd shipment from TBS tonight and had called Mary damn near panic stricken because my nitrates jumped up to around 30ppm for some unknown reason.
She kind of had a little laugh at me and then told me that the nitrates locally where the TBS rock is farmed is about 40 all of the time and not to sweat my jump....just do a bit of a water change a couple of days after the 2nd shipment goes in. I know this sounds contrary to some other stuff I've heard and read but Mary hasn't steered me wrong yet. Any other ideas about this out there?

[landlord]

12/03/03 - Day 12

Results:

Date/Time: 12/03/03 7:25 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.1
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: .1
Nitrite: .05
Nitrate: 15

Notes:

Hmmm. Stats today look kind of weird to me based on the previous flow of things. I have a feeling that leaving the fresh shrimp in the mantis trap over night was not such a bright idea. For one, No Manits!. Grrrr. The clicking is like the "Tell-Tale Heart" A. Poe. I believe that the trap is coming out tonight. If I cannot catch the little bugger, so be it. Maybe he'll be easier when he gets bigger. I have begun bubbling 15 gallons of RO water for the pre-2nd shipment water change (Thanks Hy.). It has been pretty chilly here in FL with lows in the 50's, Richard (TBS Owner) said that he was going out on the boat today to pick up some more stock, I am optimistic about getting shipment part 2 on Saturday, so that is all I have to say before I jinx it!

Kashmir - Thanks for the good word, I hope all goes well with the 2nd shipment. Since I can't seem to take a picture that doesn't look green put some up! Sorry to here about the BH FO tank.

PRC - You have some great pics and the crab one made me feel better because I got a bunch of ones very similar to him. I did find one with really hairy back legs. The front were not but I am still thinking he is no good. Not having great success in capturing anything however. I appreciate the reading material feedback. I think that I am going to get a copy of B. Fenner's book CMA.

Hy - As always, you've been looking out for me and I appreciate it very much. I am taking your advise and bubbling some RO water for a 25% water change. I figure that should get me pretty close to 10ppm and with another 25%'er should be well below 10ppm in a weeks time. I got tons more macro algae on the bloom. Saw a really cool Mermaid's Cup pop outta nowhere, with some other varieies I cannot positively identify, probably one or two different species of caulerpa. I identified the macro algae in my one picture to date as Halimeda discoidea. It is getting all kinds of new sprouts. I'm hoping to keep this stuff thriving to suck up some Nitrates. We'll see how it goes.

okiebones - Ccannot wait to see some pics of your 2nd shipment!!! Get em up. I am going to post a few after this message. I hope they don't look too green.

Thanks to everyone, have a great night.

-landlord

[landlord]

pic 1 of 5

[landlord]

pic 2 of 5

[landlord]

pic 3 of 5

[landlord]

pic 4 of 5

looks bad but give a perspective. This camera is older than time!

[landlord]

pic 5 of 5 was just too big for the post. Sorry for the let down.

Have a Great Night gotta go Star Trek Enterprise is on now.

-landlord

Edit - Duped by the NBA no Enterprise tonight! :(

[hdtran]

Good photos! Looks like you got a ton of sponges in addition to the macroalgae!

Enterprise is on repeats until 2004. I'd much rather stare at a tank any time (my laptop is out of my office and set up in my living room across from the tank).

The size of your bait should be really small--say a sliver 1/8x1/8x1/2 inch. The scent will attract critters (I waved a piece trying to catch a crab; he came out, but I couldn't grab him fast enough).

For Part II, you may receive (not saying will, but saying may, many customers seem to) an anemone or two. Since you're there in person, identify the critter! I misidentified the Epicystis (rockflower), and thus, placed it badly, and moved it twice. Poor thing's mad at me for that.

Both the Condylactis and the Epicystis need to be fed. A small piece of raw seafood (look at the mouth; you want food smaller than the mouth; I use about 1/4" max in any dimension), trailed across a tentacle will stimulate it (use tongs, chopsticks, or other device to hold seafood). The tentacle will actually stick to the seafood (it's the nematocyst firing), and the anemone will slowly move the food into its mouth. Make sure those anemones are off above the substrate, otherwise, the serpent stars will steal the food right out of them! My LFS says 'a few times a week'; Fenner says once a week is fine.

Maybe if you turn off your lights before you take the pictures, they'll be less green? My lighting is 1 VHO aquasun (basically white), 1 actinic (blue), and one actinic white (like 50/50), so my lighting looks white. Maybe if your lighting is looking blue, it's making your pictures green?

[landlord]

I will try a few experiments with the camera to see if the results are any better. Thanks for the anenome info. He has this tub like 12 feet by 6 feet full of anenomes. It's like "Sofa Superstore" for clownfish. I'm am pretty excited about it.

-kurt

[delta]

just out of curiosity how much is your flow rate in your tank?

[PRC]

"Sofa Superstore for clownfish" that's a good one :D

As far as the mantis trap goes a tiny piece of bait is just fine as long as you remember that the bait is for your satisfaction only. As far as the mantis is concerned, IME it will work just as well empty ;) .

I would do the water change, but I wouldn't worry too much about your nitrate levels. Mine have run between 10 - 25 for the last four months with no obvious ill effects. The only casualties I've had have been three cucumbers and I'm fairly certain they were doomed form the start.

I got a Condy and a Rock anemone (Epicystis crucifer) with my second half. I think it depends on what package you get and what they have and what kind of mood Richard or Mark is in, etc. My Condy seems to like being up high in the rocks. It moved sevreal times in the first few days after I put it in the tank but hasn't moved since then. The Epicycstis settled in to a spot low in the rocks and seemed very happy and robust. However, just a couple of days ago I caught one of the peppermint shrimp nibbling at it's stem and it seemed understandably annoyed. Yesterday morning when I got up it was on the move for the first time since I put it in the tank. It ended up sliding over a few inches and settling in the substrate. It actually looks much more natural there and , if it's possible, it looks pretty happy. I'll keep an eye out for marauding serpent stars when I feed it (thanks for the info Hy). I don't foresee too much of a problem since it was low in the rock work and pretty accessible to the monsters before and they never bothered it. Those stars are amazingly aggressive though.

I've had success catching hairy crabs with two methods. The first was to rubberband a piece of bait onto one side of my feeding tongs and present it to the crab. When it goes for the bait just grab it with the tongs. Simple but effective.
The second was the glass jar method but I waited til I saw the crab and placed the jar with the bait right under him next to the rock he was on. As for the Mantis, I've just learned to negotiate with them ;) .

[landlord]

Originally posted by delta
just out of curiosity how much is your flow rate in your tank?

The tank moves water at 600 gph through the filter system. I intend to add my 3 power heads hooked up my wavemaker when everything is cycled.

-landlord

[landlord]

PRC - I think I will try some of your crab catching suggestions tonight. I have been really successful in getting them to eat shrimp bits of the end of a bamboo skewer. It should be a piece of cake (now I'm jinxed) to get them to come to the tongs

-landlord

[landlord]

12/04/03 - Day 13

Results:

Date/Time: 12/04/03 7:11 PM
Temp: 81 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 15

Notes:

The tank is doing most excellent tonight. Cool little bright orange things which resemble honeycomb like wasps nests are growing off the rock. I wish I could describe them better. Hopefully I will be able to get down to TBS tomorrow and pick up 2nd shipment. Cannot wait. I have seen so many pictures of cool TBS rock that perhaps this time I will not be so overwhelmed when choosing my specimens and can focus on those with the critters that most interest me. I dodn't realize the capacity of life that incrusts these beauties.

-landlord

[okiebones]

I had the same honeycomb things you're decribing. I was able to ID them when I found them growing on a large red/orange sponge and found them growing elswhere...over a short period they have coalesced into another sponge...pretty cool to watch!
Doc

[landlord]

New sponges. That pleases me greatly. Thanks for the tidbit. Seeing your rock makes me want mine even worse.

[PRC]

The honeycomb things might also be tunicates. I've had several varieties on my TBS rock. I think they're some of the most interesting creatures I've seen so far. The way to tell the difference between sponges and tunicates is to approach them with your hand or feeding stick and see if they close. Tunicates will close rapidly most sponges cannot close at all. If they are tunicates, most have a very short lifespan. I've had two generations of encrusting tunicates come and go in my tank after only four months.

[hdtran]

They would be either sponges (poriferans) or tunicates (ascidians), all covered in Fenner and in Fenner/Calfo. But PRC is correct, sponges in general cannot contract, while tunicates (sea squirts) can contract their siphons.

My bet (I've got a gazillion of the little oranges widgies too) is a tunicate (ascidian). See http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ascidpt2.htm
Maybe the Distaplia corolla?

[hdtran]

Go to this link. I'm sure this is what you've got; I've got a bunch of those.

http://www.horta.uac.pt/species/Ascidiacea/Distaplia_corolla/Distaplia_corolla.htm

[landlord]

You guys nailed it! Looks exactly like the picture. I've got the orange ones and some that appear to be bright yellow???

[landlord]

12/05/03 - Day 14

Results:

Date/Time: 12/05/03 8:32 PM
Temp: 81 degrees
Ph: 8.0
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 11

Notes:

Happy days are soon to come. Tomorrow, if the gods will it, I will be heading down to good ole TBS for the second half of my shipment. Did the water change in the tank and brought the nitrates down. Should come down even more after the next water change. I can almost smell that 2nd shipment. Thanks guys for the assistance in the critter ID. I am always amazed how someone can take my lame descriptions and find exact pictures to match. PRC / Hy, you guys rock! Got the BH a strawberry basslet, misspelled I think, for her FO tank. He is really cool. Anyone out there know how they would do in a reef???

-landlord

[hdtran]

Got the BH a strawberry basslet, misspelled I think, for her FO tank. He is really cool. Anyone out there know how they would do in a reef???

If it's a gramma, should be fine. If it's a dottyback (e.g. pseudochromis), you may or may not have issues, the pseudochromis can be very, umm, feisty.

Book time! Got your CMA book yet? Go to page 216. (Boy, I should be getting a commission :D )

[landlord]

12/06/03 - Day 15

Results:

Date/Time: 12/06/03 8:08 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.1
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10

Notes:

Hy- You definitely need some kind of retainer fee. It is a pseudochromis. He is actually quite peaceful, knock on wood. Seems to get along quite well with the damsels and the Koran angel. Only time will tell. Was disappointed today in the weather. It has prevented TBS from making knew acquisitions and has thus delayed me in getting 2nd half of the shipment. Mark said he would be diving on Monday so I will keep the vigil alive and prepare myself for an early day from work sometime next week to make the trip. No worries the chemistry is looking great and this makes me happy. Found what I think to be an aiptasia in the tank. I will post a pic if I can capture a clear enough one.

On another note I went exploring the area and found two pretty darn good LFS's. One called "The Saltwater Reef" www.saltwaterreef.com and another called The Aquarium Inc. which bills itself as the largest saltwater LFS in Central Florida. I believe it the place is huge and the selection, although much heavier on the fish side is fantastic. Great stuff to be had there. The first store was like frag heaven. Picked up some Mark Weiss Combo Vital for feeding times. I cannot wait to start making livestock purchases. I never really was able to judge how the internet makes coral out to be large. At least large looking. What looks like a basball sized ricordea is actually quite small. This just means more goodies in the tank.

-landlord

[landlord]

possible evildoer 1 of 3

[landlord]

possible evildoer 2 of 3

[landlord]

possible evildoer 3 of 3

[landlord]

tunicate??? 1 of 3

[landlord]

tunicate??? 2 of 3

[landlord]

tunicate??? 3 of 3

I cannot be certain what these are. They are blue with a yellow ring around the top. Center of the pic.

[landlord]

brain action ;)

[landlord]

freebie frogspawn

I love this stuff

Thanks for looking tonight. Everyone have a great weekend!

-landlord

[hdtran]

The blue with yellow/green fluorescent ring is a tunicate, Clavulina or Clavularia or something like that. Check out wetwebmedia; they've got a picture just like that.

The anemone is, I believe, a curlicue, not an Aptaisia. You can tell because the tentacles are curled and striped. The Aptaisia have a longer body, skinnier tentacles, and are all monochrome.

The curlicues get up to about 1" or so.

I've got one of those brains too. Look up 'Caribbean rose coral' if you want genus & species.

Hope your weather turns good on you. It's not worth Richard or Mark taking their lives into their hands getting rock.

If I can ever figure out how to work my $#$&*) panoramic stitching software, I'll post a panoramic shot of my tank (got some bryopsis, I think, blooming on the back wall, which needs to be scraped off).

[landlord]

Sure enough, okiebones said the little honeycombs would coalesce into a sponge and sure enough, the day after posting picture tunicate 1 of 3 the bugger turned into a little orange sponge. I have now noticed that these same honeycomb-like structure are covering my big sponges.

Ahh, the Circle of Life :)

[landlord]

12/07/03 - Day 16

Results:

Date/Time: 12/07/03 9:31 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10

Notes:

Nothing really changing today. Saw a bunch of new baby hermits. The frogspawn is beginning to split, yeah! Life is generally pretty peaceful in the tank. Had to do a 40% water change to my Better Half's FO tank. Had an unusual spike today. Everyone seems happy now. Everybody out there waiting for TBS needs to think good thoughts. The weather has been clear so everyone keep your thumbs crossed!!!

-landlord

[PRC]

The weather's mellowed considerably over on this side of the state, hopefully it's headed that way!
If anyone's interested in a really good set of books to ID TBS rock critters, the best one I've found so far is the Reef Creature Identification book by Paul Humann & Ned Deloach.
But get the CMA book first! Quick!
Seriously, if you can't get the book soon, alot of the material is covered on http://www.WetWebMedia.com.

[landlord]

12/08/03 - Day 17

Results:

Date/Time: 12/08/03 9:00 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: 0.1
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 12

Notes:

I think that I have been looking at test results too long. They are starting to drive me nuts. I wish mine was more accurate. It just seems to involve a lot of "guess-timation" which I dislike. Oh well. All seems to be stable. I never got a chance to call TBS to see if any new rock made it to the shop. Did anyone else make the call today????

PRC - Thanks for the info and the web link. I will check it out tonight.

Anyone??? When is a good time to start dosing the tank with Calcium / Strontium / Molybdenum/ Iodine, etc... Someone just set me up with a package of those trace elements. They are manufactured by Kent.. Not really sure what to do with them. Any thought / comments would be greatly appreciated.

-landlord

[hdtran]

There are several schools of thoughts regarding additives. One school says, 'if you can't measure it, don't add it.' Another is 'just follow the label instructions.'

I tend to mix the two. I can't measure Mo, Sr, etc. But I can measure calcium & alkalinity. The trace element additives usually (check your label) add not only Mo, Sr, I, but also massive amounts of calcium. So, measure the calcium. If you feel the need to top-off your calcium, use your additive pack.

Last school of thought: Never add additives; rely on water changes to make up the trace elements that are taken up by your critters. After all, your synthetic salt mix is full of these trace elements.

My personal inclination: They can't hurt if used according to label, but probably don't help either.

[landlord]

Any recommendations on a test kit that can accurately measure Alkalinity / Calcium. The Red Sea one I have does not even come close to getting accurate measurements of either of the two???, and thanks!

kurt

[hdtran]

One more thing: Got a calcium test? If not, get one. You don't have calcium consuming critters yet, but you will. One of my friends set up a reef tank (w/o TBS, btw, his mistake) and didn't test calcium. Turns out that as his LR cycled, it ate all his calcium (not to mention all the life on his LR), and he's got hair algae and diatoms up the wazoo (even with RO/DI water from a semiconductor factory where he works).

[landlord]

10-4. I'll find one tomorrow.

Thanks

Kurt

[hdtran]

The alk. kit I have is a pH/alk. kit (Seachem). The calcium kit that I have is Red Sea.

The pH is a single drop, match the colors. Alkalinity is add drops until it changes from blue to yellow, multiply by 0.5 to get alkalinity in meq/L.

The calcium kit is 'add 4 drops of reagent A; mix; add 5 drops of reagent B; mix 30 seconds; add reagent A drop by drop until color changes; dance on left foot while holding finger to ear with right hand and twirling right toes; ...' Good to 50ppm, but a pain to use.

Fenner (and all) recommend that aquarium saltwater should run higher alkalinity and calcium than NSW.

The above mention of brand names does not constitute an endorsement (though it is what my LFS pushes, and I trust him).

[landlord]

Good to know. I found a LFS with both kits you describe. I will check them out today.

Thanks Hy

[landlord]

12/09/03 - Day 18

Results:

Date/Time: 12/09/03 8:03 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 12

Notes:

Nothing new to report. Just waiting for more rock. Gotta run Battlestar Gallactica is on!

-landlord

[kashmir]

Still waiting on 2nd shipment. Richard was diving yesterday, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. finally got my digital camera. can't post my initail pic. file is to large. All of my new pics are to large. Any way to compress them?

[landlord]

kashmir

Just spoke with Richard, yesterday was unproductive. Today the is a small craft warning for the site so nothing coming today. Winter is just a bad time for the open seas :(

As far as you pics are concerned you should be able to get them into your gallery because the size limit does not apply, or at least allows for larger size pictures.

-landlord

[kashmir]

Thanks landlord. I know about the weather, it's striper season here, but its been blowing to hard. I'll try the gallery.

[hdtran]

I thought that you also had a 50K limit on individual pictures in the gallery? If not, I've got a ****load of pictures that I can upload.

To resize photos for attachment, I use Irfanview (free program). You can also use "Image Resizer" (also free). Both of those have mentions/links here. I happen to like Irfanview a bit better. You open your jpeg, find the "Resize/resample" tool, give it a new size. I find that 480x320 almost always results in a sufficiently small size. My problem with Irfanview is that I haven't figured out how to have it tell me what the jpeg disk size is before saving...

My biggest problem is getting the autofocus on my camera to focus on what I want it to focus on; 2nd problem is getting the exposure right (flash tends to wash out color or give unwanted reflections even at an angle; no flash is too dark).

[kashmir]

Had to resize images

[kashmir]

Day 14

[kashmir]

One more

[kashmir]

Anyone knows what the black sponges are on the bottom right?

[landlord]

pictures look good! I got the black sponges also. Not sure of the species

[kashmir]

Thanks, took a little work
The sponges have really started coming out the past couple of days. I can now see the pours on them. Had a clam break off the rock last night and crawl about 6" across the bottom of the tank. Pretty wild to see a "rock" move around like that. LOL

[hdtran]

Kashmir,

Love the way you did your aquascaping with the table rock on the two side support rocks!

You'll see random large green ribbons attached to your rock (about 1/2" wide, maybe 1" long, almost like a squashed tube). Those are the clam attachment byssus that the clam lets go to wander someplace else! At first, I thought it was Caulerpa that had been cut off for shipping, but no, you'll find those where the clams were before they decided that they wanted to move.

Keep looking for feather dusters, it's always amazing to see another one pop up.

[kashmir]

hdtran,

so far just the one clam has broken loose, looking forward to seeing where it is tonight. ther is another still attached to the rock both about fist sized.

not many feather dusters, yet.

hopefully the weather will clear late this week, and the second shipment will arrive.

Fl is not as predictable as NM.

[landlord]

12/10/03 - Day 19

Results:

Date/Time: 12/10/03 8:13 PM
Temp: 81 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 9

Notes:

Did another water change to help bring down the Nitrates. I am kind of wishing I had the TBS critters for the tank. The algae is starting to get a bit crazy. Pray for rock!

-landlord

[liverock]

Originally posted by landlord
12/10/03 - Day 19

Results:

Date/Time: 12/10/03 8:13 PM
Temp: 81 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 9

Notes:

Did another water change to help bring down the Nitrates. I am kind of wishing I had the TBS critters for the tank. The algae is starting to get a bit crazy. Pray for rock!

-landlord

Have the critters, come get them if you want......no rock yet....

Richard TBS:rollface:

[landlord]

You're just teasing me now. hahahaha

Someone told me that in order to have a healthy reef I need to learn the importance of patience. Good things come to those who wait, right???

I may take you up on the offer this week-end.

Thanks Richard

-landlord

[hdtran]

Patience, and a pre-warmed, pre-mixed, well-aged bucket of saltwater for a quickie water change (we change no water before its time) ;)

Once your critters are in & the rest of your rocks are in, you (& Surprise) should consider the following:

(1) Do you want to take the (admittedly small) risk of Ich cysts & introduce fish immediately, or wait 21 to 28 days?
(2) When introducing fish, do you have the patience to QT them (or does your LFS do quarantine or something similar)?
(3) Once you start introducing fish, how quickly (or slowly) do you do so? all the fish at once, or 1 fish/week or month until you've reached your desired population?

My personal answers (1) 21 days, (2) LFS keeps all fish in copper, so no, (3) 3 at once (current FOwLR fish), then, 1/month.

But you do have an occupation you can take up while waiting for Part 2 rocks: You can watch your pod population grow! :D

[Splach]

Landlord,

how can those of us trying to live vicariously through you survive if you don't post more pictures... :P

(still waiting on tank, finally chose lighting fixture, CA reactor, and protien skimmer. Hope to be installed by mid January.)

[landlord]

Hy - Thaks for the advise. Not really sure what I want to do with the tank. I really just want to get the 2nd half of the shipment in place. It's funny because once I have it I wil need to figure out where I want to go. My Better Half already has a FO tank going so I want to try and keep the fish bioload out of my tank. I have been spending a lot of time looking a various pictures of natural reef settings. I really want to try and put together an eye pleasing aquascape. I also want to make sure that I have addressed things like flow and light. I really do like SPS so I know they will eventually make it into the tank.

Splach - I will try and get some more pictures for ya. The problem is the camera. It really sucks! Everythig gets washed out looking. It is also a loner camera which won't be around for much longer. The family is coming to FL for the season with their camera, hopefully the picture quality will be better. Glad to hear that you are making progress with your equipment. Were you ever able to get someone to send you plans for the canopy? My offer still stands if you would like to utilize my (albeit novice) design. It is quite functional.

-landlord

[landlord]

12/11/03 - Day 20

Results:

Date/Time: 12/11/03 7:24 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 7 or 8 hard to tell

Notes:

Caught one of two gorilla crabs that I have seen munching on bits of things. I used the old "flick him off the rock with a bamboo skewer method" He is now roaming the FO tank wishing he had TBS rock to munch on. Tank looks well except for hairy algae and the like which is getting kind of heavy in spots. I will be keeping an eye on it.

Ordered another 7 inch fan to help with cooling. I am slowly bringing up the amount of time that the halides are on. The 7 inch clip fan by Holmes(R) is a godsend.

-landlord

[Splach]

Hey Landlord, that just one of those basic "clip it on your desk" type fans? Whats the CFM and DB rating?

[delta]

bust out with the turkey baster and clean up your skimmer mine was so nasty from all the silt.
i had to do a thorough cleaning to get it back up to par .
now the algea is dying back .

hows your phosphates?

[landlord]

Splach - If I knew what CFM and DB were, I'd be more than happy to give the info. What do those terms stand for??? What I can tell you is that I spent 66.00 plus shipping on two Custom SeaLife 3.5 inch fans. They do nothing to keep down the heat. They simply do not draw enough heat from within the canopy. Granted, the canopy design was kind of "home-baked" by myself and may not be condusive to the fans. The 7 inch clip on desk fans pointed at the water surface cost me 30 bucks for the both of them. The are just as quiet, fully adjustable and they definitely move the air. I lose about 1/2 gallon to evaporation per day but it is not enought to alter salinity to much. If I can find the time I would like to install a top off device so I never have to worry.

delta - I am constantly cleaning the skimmer. I am pretty sure that mine is a piece of S*&@. Red Sea Pism Skimmer = Lame and noisy. For the second part of your question. What are phoshpates, what do they do, and what kind of test kit do I need to check on them? I feel so novice :(

lemme know guys

...and thanks for watching out for me.

-landlord

[hdtran]

CFM: Cubic Feet per Minute (A really horrible bastardized unit with which we should not put up, but hey...)

DB: He means dB, as in decibel of sound (sound pressure level), as opposed to dB watt in audio or power electronics or ... 0 dB is as quiet as it gets; 100 dB is your kids' room... 30 or 40 dB for a fan is very quiet; the muffin fans used to cool computers tend to run 60 dB and about 100 cfm.

If you're a DIY, you get the computer muffin fans surplus (less than $10/ea; moves a goodly amount of air), and build your own holder for the fans.

Consumer fans (e.g. Walmart) tend not to have CFM or dB listed. Electronic cooling fans will list CFM, because you need to figure out if that's enough air flow to cool your Powerium chip. (More than you wanted to know, I'm sure...)

[delta]

Phosphates are one of the chemicals that build up in a tank and are also put there by product used, you may have noticed alot of reef product say "no phosphates"

basically phosphates will feed algea, but you can test for them with a phosphate test kit and if they are present you can use a phosphate sponge or media to absorb them.

i prefer to use the media in a mess bag but you can go either way.

hope this helps

[landlord]

Thanks for the explanations. Do not have any figure for the fan. I know that it cools with evaporative cooling really well.

-landlord

[delta]

<>

[Splach]

Thanks Landlord. I am just looking to find the best fans for my system since I will not have a chiller out of the gate...

[landlord]

I missed yesterdays test. Life goes on. I am hoping to ghet down to TBS today for a shipment. I have started the Saturday morning vigil. Hopefully someone there will pick up the phone. :)

-landlord

[liverock]

Kurt

Had good weather yesterday, Mark went out, got past the island, our new $15,000 Yamaha 250 blew up....has been a lemon since the day we bought it......in june.....only 71 hours on it..

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Mark is out today in my boat, we will see......

Richard TBS:rollface: :rollface:

[delta]

i hate that when that happens thing are going great then poof
BIG OLD MONKEY WRENCH sorry to here

[landlord]

Darn Yamaha! :(

Let's spam Yamaha's website in protest.

Thanks for the update Richard! Really sorry to hear about the motor.

Kurt

[liverock]

Originally posted by landlord
Darn Yamaha! :(

Let's spam Yamaha's website in protest.

Thanks for the update Richard! Really sorry to hear about the motor.

Kurt



I am beyond spam.....this motor had issues since day 1......

I complained to Yamaha many times about it, they do not care once they get their money, you are on your own.

This is the first production year of this motor, we should have know better, but the 4 stroke I purchased from them was so good, I figured, bigger is better...WRONG.

STAY AWAY from Yamaha 250 2-stroke motor, do yourself a favor and buy the 4-stroke.

The dealer will do nothing as they just sell the motors, the manufacture is responsible for the performance, according to my lawyer, and will be responsible for lost business also.

If anyone knows of problems with a Yamaha 250 2-stroke motor, please let us know. It is the HPDI <high pressure fuel> model....

We are filing suit this week, will keep you posted!

Richard TBS:rollface:

[landlord]

Good for you. Maybe is they check out your "History" story they will decide to settle outta court! and stop screwing with the little guy!

Godd Luck!

-landlord

[landlord]

12/13/03 - Day 22

Results:

Date/Time: 12/13/03 7:49 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal / High
Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: .15
Nitrate: 12
Phosphates: 0.3
Calcium: 400ppm

Notes:

Chemistry is a bit outta whack. No explanation. Maybe dying sponges or something. Will do a water change in 24 hours. I finally picked up a Phosphate and a Calcium test kit. Now that I realize that the phosphate level is high 0.3, what do I do??? Same with Calcium. I need to add some but am not sure how to go about it. Any thoughts/ ideas / suggestions would be welcome.

Many Thanks

-landlord

[delta]

phosphate sponge\pad or media in a mesh bag. i like the media just dont like to add anything in the form of a sponge or floss if not absolutely needed. put the media in a mess bag 800micron
throw it in the water path try to make it so the water has to go through it not around it, usually 8 to 24hr is recomended.

calcium how low is it i would just do a water change as you planned and recheck then no need to put any additives in while your tank chemistry is still a little off.

[landlord]

Cool thanks Delta! The water change is done! Someone told me that I should simulate a hurricane with my power heads to get the phosphates suspended in the water. What this guy crazy!

[landlord]

Happy Days are here. Just getting in my car for the 2 hour drive to TBS for the second half of my shipment. Got a nice NE wind with clear skies so diving should be good.

-landlord :)

[kashmir]

Congratulations. Hope mine's coming soon then.:)

[landlord]

:(

What a bust. Bad luck for everyone. I got down to the shop to find out that the power went out. If any of you out there have gravity based filtration (keep in mind he has thousands of gallons) without stop valves you know what this means. Water coming out the front door. Richard was not a happy man. The weather outside was beautiful but the diving visiblity was very poor. Since the power problem caused a water problem I was not able to get any rock. I did however leave with a really cool flame scallop. The 2 hour drive home was compounded with a 2.5 hour delay on I-4.

Things can only get better from here

-landlord

[delta]

Man really sorry to hear that been a bad week for Richard :(

Hope your right landlord up is the only way to go

oh yea how about a pic of that Flame Scallop

[landlord]

12/15/03 - Day 24

Results:

Date/Time: 12/15/03 9:17 PM
Temp: 80 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal / High
Ammonia: .1
Nitrite: .05
Nitrate: 14
Phosphates: 0.2
Calcium: 400ppm

Notes:

Looks like the water change helped a bit. I need to keep my mits outta the tank for another couple of days. It needs time to settle back into a routine.

delta - I'll get a pic up there soon. Mom is coming into town. Her digital should work better than the one that I borrowed, and have since returned.

Thanks for looking...

-landlord

[landlord]

12/16/03 - Day 25

Results:

Date/Time: 12/16/03 7:00 PM
Temp: 80 degrees
Ph: 8.0
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: 1.0
Nitrate: 20+
Phosphates: 0.2
Calcium: 500ppm

Notes:

I got big chemistry problems, and I believe I am the reason. Patience got the better of me and I got sucked in by the LFS. I put a Black Percula Clown, Yellow Tang into the tank and all hell broke loose. Do I need to let the bacteria just catch up? Perhaps a water change, if so how much (75 gallon tank). Landlord is :( at his actions and must repent. Is the tank doomed?

Please Advise

humbly repentant

-landlord

[Splach]

How long have the fish been in the tank?

[landlord]

Since Saturday evening

<feeling ashamed>

[Splach]

Well on the 13th you were running:

Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: .15
Nitrate: 12

and the LFS told you to put in fish? Ammonia came down with a water change but the nitrate and nitrite are still climbing.

What's the chance that the LFS will take the fish back until things stablize? Or do you have a QT that you can put them in?

In any case I am guessing I would do a water change (but of course I am more of a newb than you). Try posting in "new to the hobby" probably get more feedback than you can handle. Not that many people are on this forum ( I just happen to be subscribed to your thread ).

[hdtran]

Landlord,

Quiz time!! Do you have a copy of Fenner's 'Conscientious Marine Aquarist' or Tullock's 'Natural Reef Aquariums' yet?

Your tank is not doomed, but you've just made yourself a ton of work (well, the Tang police might say your tank is doomed, but I won't ;) )

You realize you still need to add another 75# of LR to your tank, plus critters (unless you already put in the critters, I don't remember anymore), so your biological filtration is not completely established.

You have the following options:
(1) Do a massive water change (30 to 50%) with well equilibrated water
(2) Be ready to perform 10-20% water changes daily (this will drag out your nitrogen cycle, but you've got to consider the cruelty to your fish if you stress them with ammonia & nitrites)

Or, as Splach suggests, temporarily move your Clown & Tang into the 'Surprise Honey' tank until the reef tank is stable. (This will make your 29g overcrowded, but those are the breaks).

I would probably move at least the Tang into the FOwLR tank, even though that will make it overcrowded. The Tang is less hardy, and if the LFS gave you a specimen that carries an Ich infection, at least in the FOwLR tank, you can treat it.

Your priorities are:
(1) Keep fish alive
(2) Keep LR alive
(3) Keep cleanup critters alive

This requires that your chemistry be good (low ammonia/nitrites, heading to zero ammonia/nitrites), and a good bacteria population. Unfortunately, low ammonia/nitrites make it longer for the bacterial population to get established, so you'll have to just do water changes (and we're talking daily if need be) until the nitrogen cycle completes again, and that will take longer because you can't let the ammonia or nitrites get high (as that will stress the h$#^ out of your fish).

Don't be afraid of doing a 50% water change with well equilibrated water (salinity & temperature adjusted; I like aged by at least 24 hrs, but that's probably a feel-good measure).

[hdtran]

One more comment:

You realize that the Tang should also probably have been the last fish in? While he's not likely to bother any non-Tangs, they're not called surgeonfish because they went to med school ;) . They also eat voraciously, and, umm, poop voraciously.

You could probably put the Tang into the 29g (temporarily) and the damsels from the 29g into the reef tank. The damsels are quite hardy and can tolerate non-pristine water better than the Tang. Again, don't let the ammonia and nitrite rise (unnecessary cruelty), but now, you don't need to worry about killing the poor fishies.

[landlord]

Thanks guys!

I have filled up 20 gallons worth of water which I have salted. They are now bubbling in the corner for now. Relatives are arriving tomorrow. I hope they like saltwater tanks because this is where I will be for awhile.

Hy - Answers to your questions.

I have none of the reading material listed, however I am pretty sure I will be getting it come Xmas. Perhaps I will raid the santa closet early. The books that I have have basically, but not in so many words, told me that what I did was counterproductive. I am thinking that daily 20 gallon water changes (for several days) could be helpful. I am unable to catch the fish without massively disturbing the LR. I will double my efforts. I will post my successes / failures.

Thanks Again

-landlord

[Splach]

Good luck Landlord, and thank you. I am quite sure that I would be tempted by the LFS to stock at the same point you did, but hopefully this will help temper my spending...

[kashmir]

For what my two cents are worth. I agree with hdtran. water changes are your best bet. I'm surprised your ammonia shot up so quick. I haven't added any fish yet, still waiting on my second shipment. but the amount of crabs and other life in the tank has got to be producing waste (ammonia). Spent about an hour last night lwatching the live sand. there are so many critters in it that it's hard to take your eyes off of it. Sorry for the late reply, but I'm only on line at work right now.

Keep us posted Landlord.

[Cuervo]

Great thread landlord.. I've gotta jump on board.

Especially since we're both in sunny FLA!!

Joe

[landlord]

The water changes are helping. The chemicals are starting to come down a bit. Last night I just tested the big three

Ammonium: .20
Nitrite: .8
Nitrate: 30

Hy was right this will be a lot of work. On the plus side, the tang and the TBS critters are algae eating freaks. All of the nasty hair algae is being gobbled up and the snails are making short work of the crud on the glass. Will do another water change here in a few days. The in-laws just do not see my fascination with this all. They're like "The rocks are nice Kurty, but wouldn't you like us to get you one of those bubbling treasure chests." I did not reply.

-landlord

[Splach]

Whooo.. Maybe one of those up-down bubbling divers too!

[hdtran]

What's going on with your test kit? I can't believe that with a 75g tank, your nitrates go from 12 or 14ppm to 30ppm in one day???

[delta]

seem odd to me too
plus all your tests are all going up down and all around
maybe if it were a small tank i could see but its a 75g

[oraclenick]

Dude, I go on vacation for a couple of days and you go and add more fish. How many times have I told you to be patient!
Priority is keeping the fish alive now. You should probably move both the percula and tang to the FO tank.
Do not add anything to the tank until you get the next shipment of LR and let the tank settle to all 0's for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
Then you can start to add the fish from the FO tank back into the show tank.
The tang should be the last one added

[landlord]

Just performed another massive water change. I will do the testing in a bit to see how things are going. All fish and livestock seem to be doing very well dispite the trauma I have placed on them.

Hy - What is the name of the editor you use for cropping your images? and is it a free download?

oraclenick - You of all people should know I have the patience / attention span of a medfly drinking espresso. But thanks for the advise. I will attempt to exercise more patience.

thanks

-landlord

[hdtran]

Irfanview, freeware (last time I checked).

My use of it does not constitute a formal endorsement, usual disclaimers, etc.

[landlord]

Just did a 25% water change again. The clownfish didn't fare very well in the FO tank. He has died :( The tang is as gregarious as usual. I will post some test results after the filtration runs for a bit.

Hy - Thanks for the software info. I will try and crop some of the pics I have taken with my mothers camera. The colors look well.

-landlord

[delta]

sorry to hear about your clown:(

[landlord]

Here are the stats for after the 25% water change

Ammonia .25
Nitrite 1.0
Nitrate 40 / 45

The water changes do not seem to be making much difference. I am getting together another 15 gallons for tomorrow.

frustrated ....

-landlord

[hdtran]

Your chemistry disturbs me. I just can't believe a nitrate reading of 13-14ppm one day, and 30ppm the next.

Run a baseline test (test your freshly made water); maybe do a couple of dilutions (a sample with 50% freshly made water and 50% tank water).

And don't be shy about doing a 50% water change. You've still got a tang pooping away in your 75g tank. If you only have a 20g container, do the 50% change in these steps: First, drain 50% of the tank. Next, refill with 20g of freshly made & equilibrated water. You've now got some breathing room: Make up another 20g of water & get it equilibrated (this will take you maybe 20-30 minutes), and fill up the rest of your tank.

Do a water test immediately before, and after the water change. Your chemistry should be cut in half (except for SG, pH, alk., & calcium ;) )

[landlord]

I will be performing another 25% water change this evening. I will post a chemistry test immediately before the test and then right after. The difficulty that I am having with the tests is the Nitrite and Nitrate can only get so red on the color scale. Hard to differentiate accurate values. We will try however.

-landlord

[delta]

do your test kits have a high and low range if they do they came with a graduated syringe or dropper, in which you only use part of your tank water and some RO\DI water which will dilute the test solution and then you can calculate the results.

but not sure of your test kit

[landlord]

it does indeed have a high and low range. Although I do not have he ability as of yet to generate RO/DI water. I can always try with the tap water however.

[delta]

just test the tap water first to make sure it doesnt have any nitrites or nitrates or whatever your testing for

[landlord]

12/24/03 - Day 33

Just testing for the big 3

Ammonia: .05 (Yeah!!!)
Nitrite: .2 (Sweeeet!)
Nitrate: somewhere between 30 and 40

After the horrible results I have been having these results make me feel a bit better.

Have a Merry Christmas

-landlord

[landlord]

12/27/03 - Day 36

sg: 1.025
temp: 80
ammonia: 0
nitrite: .1
nitrate: 15

Notes:

I haven't fallen off the planet yet. I have been trying to keep my hands out of the tank for a bit. The more I try the worse things get. I haven't had my fingers in the tank for several days now except to add water. The water changes seem to be bring down the Nitrate level but they seem to be having a negative effect on the cycle as a whole. The Nitrites are not being converted. I did a Nitrite test on the water I used and it was negligible so I am at a loss. I am quite pleased with the Nitrate reduction but do not have any explanation on the Nitrites. Being confused, I have resigned myself to keeping hands out of the tank and letting the cycle take it natural course.

-landlord

[wooglin]

I am at 3 months and my nitrites never fell totally to zero. They are in the low .05 and below range. I will not that I have some fragile corals that I have added that seem to be doing fine. The latest is a Branching frogspawn.

[landlord]

Thanks for the info. I gotta picture of a frogspawn somewhere in this post.

BTW Your thread is what got me hooked!

Thanks a Million!

[Cearbhaill]

The water changes seem to be bring down the Nitrate level but they seem to be having a negative effect on the cycle as a whole. The Nitrites are not being converted. I did a Nitrite test on the water I used and it was negligible so I am at a loss. I am quite pleased with the Nitrate reduction but do not have any explanation on the Nitrites.
Might be worth trying a newer or different test kit just to verify...

[landlord]

01/03/04 - Day 43

sg: 1.025
temp: 80
ammonia: .1
nitrite: .1
nitrate: 12
ph: 7.8 (a bit low)
alk: normal

Notes:

After keeping my hands out of the tank for an extended time things are beginning to calm down. The chemistry is getting back online. I wish I would have been more patient starting out. I am thinking that I will be replacing the filtration system I am using soon. It seems to be constantly dumping more Nitrates into the system. I will have to trust that the LR/LS will suffice as the bio filter. I recently invested in a better skimmer which I am very pleased with. It's no AquaC Remora but it does the trick. No bubbles back into the tank and so on.

Have a Great New Year Folks

-landlord

[hdtran]

Your tank is too new for a canister filter or w/d or bio-ball system to turn into a nitrate factory. 12ppm nitrate is good. That said, LS, LR, and a skimmer is really all the filtration you need. I didn't realize (or forgot) that you had anything else :). The 7.8 pH is definitely on the low side, don't panic yet, but take action. When you do your next water change, add 1 tsp of baking soda per 20gal system water into your water change water, or Kent/Seachem buffer per bottle instructions. This will bring up the pH about 0.1. Continue dosing the 1 tsp baking soda (not baking powder! Arm&Hammer baking soda or equivalent!) or buffer, at the suggested dose (no stronger) every other day until your pH is up to 8.0. You want to shoot to be in the 8.0 to 8.4 range.

How's the blue tang?

[wooglin]

YOu need to keep the nitrates under 15, if you do that you will be fine. Also get that PH up. Is should not drop under 8.0, I found the best solution to fix that problem in my tank was a CPR HOB refugium lit 24/7. Now my PH is 8.3 steady.

[landlord]

HDTran - I have added some Kent Marine Pro Buffer dKH per bottle instructions to raise up the PH. I have noticed that 3 of the 4 cucumbers from TBS have passed on. There corpses were hidden in various placed and had to be extricated. I think that before removing the filter I will wait to see if the newest spike was caused by the cucumbers dying.

FYI The Hippo Tang slipped away last night. :(

Wooglin - I have been toying with the idea of the refugium setup. I have been trying to get as much info on them for the past several weeks. I like the mangrove ideas that I have been seeing on www.garf.org. Along with the natural reduction of Nitrates they just look really cool.

Thanks for the input guys

-kurt

[landlord]

01/07/04 - Day 47

sg: 1.025
temp: 80
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 15
ph: 8.2
alk: normal

Notes:

The tank is stabalized once again. I think I will continue to keep out of it for another week or so. I am however getting the itch to put something in it. My second shipment was awesome. Richard and Mary are #1. 7 open brains (2 of which are the size of grapefruits) for starters. Too many more cool things to name.

-landlord

[hdtran]

Repeat after me:

"Only one new fish/month until fully populated":D

Looks like your chemistry is under control again. Good for you. Continue doing, say, 10% water changes every couple of weeks.

If you like (and if it fits in with your plans), you could put in a soft coral (not that you need any more color ;) ) now, especially if you choose a predominantly photosynthetic one, such as button polyps. They won't affect your water quality at all.

[landlord]

HDTran

I agree with you. I will stay away save for the occasional water change to reduce Nitrates.

-kurt

[delta]

hows things going ? hopefully OK :) guess you were serious about keeping your hands out of your tank :)

[landlord]

I have kept out of the tank totally. I really really do not want to mess it up again. The water parameters are getting really nice and stable. I did win a battle with cyanobacteria successfullly without screwing up the water params. Patience seems to be the one quality that one must possess to win this saltwater game.

Thanks for the check-up Delta

-kurt

[patihash]

landlord you never mentioned what type of skimmer you have. And would you put up pics of the second shipmen and your present tank? best of luck....

[landlord]

Must have slipped my mind.

I first had a Red Sea Prism Deluxe skimmer. I worked very well after figuring out how to adjust it properly. Howevewr it was the noisiest piece of equipment on the whole setup. I was also getting a lot of micro bubbles in the tank. I have since swapped it out for a ViaAqua hang on skimmer. Even more complex to adjust and difficult to prime but not much noise and no micro bubbles.

As for the pics. I no longer have a digital camera in my possession. I will see what I can do as far as borrowing one from someone.

The tank couldn't be healthier. I will be adding a sump / refugium as soon as the tax money gets deposited in the bank so I can get some of the equipment off the back of the tank.

BTW The two mantis shrimps I was able to capture and remove to a separate 10 gallon tank spawned this morning, or at least one of them did. When I turned on the light she was waving hundreds of planktonic mantis larvae out of her lair into the tank. It was very cool to watch and I am soooo glad that I got them out of the display tank before this happened.


-landlord

[jawaiian]

tag

[landlord]

Howdy jawaiian. Tank is doing really well thanks for checking out the thread.

I am currently getting ripped up in the SPS forum for buying an expensive frag of SPS.

[jawaiian]

Yes, you do have a really nice tank there. As a newbie, I really enjoy these day by day threads, especially yours because you list your parameters each entry, and you are basically being mentored by the helpful guy from New Mexico (HDTran?). Anyway, I used to live in Orlando, so I remember driving all over town to check out the fish shops, especially the one by my house when I lived near UCF- I would go there three times a week, and drooling over their reef tanks are what got me interested in aquariums (the dead coral and treasure chest look turns my stomach). Best of luck with the tank and the live rock (I'm going to order some TBS when we redo our floors and I set up the tank finally), and I'll be following the progress of your system.

By the way, I know you've heard it before, but if I've learned one thing on the various forums, it's take things slow , and even I cringe when I read about all the new fish your LFS and BH keep nudging you into. That black percula would have been really sweet in your tank.

Rob Fischer

[biomekanic]

very cool and interesting thread. I hope to have everything ready to get some rock this July, I'm looking to setup a rock only tank on my desk at work.
I'm going to try priming my tank before hand by having a chaeto refugium up and running, along with a seperate rubble refugium. I'm also planning on trying the live phyto plankton route, should be interesting.

BTW The two mantis shrimps I was able to capture and remove to a separate 10 gallon tank spawned this morning, or at least one of them did. When I turned on the light she was waving hundreds of planktonic mantis larvae out of her lair into the tank. It was very cool to watch and I am soooo glad that I got them out of the display tank before this happened.
Actually, there's no worries there. They're almost impossible to raise to adult hood even under lab conditions. Dr. Roy (check out the mantis forum) has managed to get 2 out of over 500 to settle out of the larvae, in a tank, if the impellors didn't smash them, something would eat them, if not each other. Consider them a source of plankton.

[landlord]

The rock tank sounds really cool. I would be very interested in following a thread of that nature. There is just so much on TBS rock that from a distance the corals I have purchased just kind of disappear.

Good Luck!

kurt

[landlord]

Just got the RO/DI unit setup to try and deal with some nasty tap water here in my city. The tap water seems to have higher Nitrates / Phosphates than my tank.

[delta]

i see you found you parameter problem, sorry to hear but i'm glad the you figured it out :cool: