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View Full Version : Garlic not curing my ick problem


DogueDeBordeaux
07/17/2000, 10:25 PM
Well the garlic trick is not working for me.I'm in my third day.Can i treat the tank with something or just treat food with selcon or vitachem maybe lickick.Is the ruby reef product reef safe.I have no corals yet but have snails and shrimps.I;m going to add a cleaner tomorrow.What should i do?Oh yea it's my yellow tang.

TangHeaven
07/19/2000, 05:03 PM
I use Greenex on my reef tank, and it worked great. I even use it as a dip for new fish

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Learn by experience-preferably other people's

Tami :)

RubyReef
07/19/2000, 06:21 PM
Kick-Ich is completely reef safe and very effective if used properly. Please contact us if you have any questions about its safety or applications.
Tel: 301-622-3776
email: [email protected]

Sorry we don't have our web site up yet, but we're working on it. I also scan this BB whenever I have a chance, but that is not very often.

Are you sure you have ich? There is a new parasite -- I haven't IDed it yet but colleagues are working on it -- that initially presents symptoms very similar to ich. It has been most prevalent in the Gulf states but is now appearing elsewhere. Is there evidence of frayed fins or epidermal irritation? Are the regions around the salt grains developing a red or brownish color?

Good luck with your problem. Contact us and we will do whatever we can to help.

Sam

Grouper
07/19/2000, 08:10 PM
My yellow tang exhibited the symptoms you describe. First, he got the salt spots all over him, then one got very cloudy, finally some of the white spots on his "forehead", just above the eyes, turned a brownish reddish color. He stopped eating and looked like he had hours left.

I tried everything I could but nothing worked. Finally, I tried a freshwater dip. Most of the white spots fell off and a few parasites! They were moving quite vigorously in the freshwater, probably in their death throes. Needless to say, he improved 75% and it appears he is going to make it.

Are these the symptoms of this new disease you are speaking about. I just figured it was really bad ich or marine velvet.

Redhawk
07/20/2000, 12:12 AM
do you really think that there is a gnc or drug store in the ocean that fish just swim up to and buy all sorts of "remedies" and DIY concoctions? Be a responsible fishkeeper, and dont stress out your fish. Maybe you could try some bleach, it always kills my poison oak. I f that doesnt work try cyanide. If that still doesnt work, let the fish die a slow death, then go buy another one.

dennisV
07/20/2000, 07:43 AM
if garlic doesn't work, why not try a silver cross or a wooden spike ?

ps. Do not take this serious ( just in case )

Larry M
07/20/2000, 07:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redhawk:
do you really think that there is a gnc or drug store in the ocean that fish just swim up to and buy all sorts of "remedies" and DIY concoctions? Be a responsible fishkeeper, and dont stress out your fish. Maybe you could try some bleach, it always kills my poison oak. I f that doesnt work try cyanide. If that still doesnt work, let the fish die a slow death, then go buy another one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uncalled for, Red Hawk. This is a serious situation and he is looking for serious help, not a smart-aleck comment from someone who has nothing better to do. Check your email.

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Larry M

Visit Reef Stores.com (http://63.75.34.139/ubbcgi/Ultimate.cgi?) The liaison between hobbyists and on-line retailers.

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)



[This message has been edited by Larry M (edited 07-20-2000).]

Frisco
07/20/2000, 08:22 AM
I for one have tried this, on the advice of someone whose opinion I respect very much, and I for one can say that it seems to work in some cases. (It worked miraculously for me immediately on a purple tang) I always tried to qualify its use and let people realize that there are no guarantees and that they should think long and hard about how they do it. I can say that soaking my frozen food overnight (plus a bunch of further preparation) in some garlic flavored olive oil produced a quick recovery in a couple days. I have even used it with inverts without incident and the fish is still alive and well. Granted, there are many ways to skin this cat, but this very well could be one very benign way. (I generally don't advocate the use of quick fixes or miracle cure products by any means)

So what did you garlic source did you use and how did you prepare the food?

I think that you're on the wrong board if you enjoy knocking people for thinking differently than you. RC seems to be pretty well known as a place for people to discuss things in a manner that fosters open communication without unnecessary badgering. That's why I'm here, and I have no interest in watching things go down hill. Mind your manners!

Playfair
07/20/2000, 08:34 AM
Applying a little tactfullness here:

If the stressor is not removed from the environment, no remedy will cure the problem.

Check all of your water parameters (especially ammonia an nitrite) and find out what's causing the fish to get sick.

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Mistress Reef (http://www.fortunecity.com/petparade/fins/1/reef.html)

RubyReef
07/20/2000, 08:55 AM
Grouper,

Good call on the freshwater dip. I have yet to see a LIVING fish with the disease and the two dead specimens I recieved were beyond meaningful analysis (I'd be real interested to know about gill tissues resected IMMEDIATELY after death). However, the constants seem to be development of the red or brown region around the salt spots, progessively worsening lethargy and loss of appetite, and finally death after 10 - 14 days. Between the time the spots appear and the fish dies, symptoms such as frayed fins and epidermal irritation sometimes become manifest, but this may be attributable to the general process of a fish that isn't eating and going down hill. It also appears to be contagious: this aspect, in combination with the slowly developing morbidity, results in torture for the aquarist as it takes weeks -- with attending frustration and insanity -- to infect and wipe out a tank. Curiously, reports of repiratory difficulty are, at best, inconsistent: so does it attack the gills ala ich and velvet? We know this critter is resistant to Kick-Ich, Rally, formalin and malachite green. I will start recommending the freshwater dip and post the results if I learn something useful.

We just introduced a highly penetrative product (rapidly penetrates gill tissues and the mucous coat), HydroPlex, that is broadly efffective against gram negative bacteria and protazoan parasites, as well as fungal and parasitic algae infections (e.g., China black disease), but we have no information yet as to whether it is effective against this bugger.

If anyone has any useful information or observations to contribute to this thread on the pseudo-ich disease please do. This disease, and a fungal infection caused by Aphanomyces invadans (open ulcers and lesions that appear out of nowhere, especially on brackish water fish), are prevalent in the Pacific rim and are coming our way, so we better learn how to deal with them.

Sam

Terry B
07/21/2000, 12:35 AM
Hi all,
I am with Sam on this one. There are other parasites that can cause white spots on fish and I think one of them is common on Blue (Hippo) tangs. Hyposalinity does not work for every type of parasite. This is particularly true with Uronema. With Uronema you will usually see some scales lifting and it will look bloody.
Keep in mind that three days is not a lot of time to allow the garlic to work if it is Ich.
Without a positive ID I suggest lowering the salinity to 14 to 16 ppt (specific gravity of 1.009 at about 78 to 80F). You can do this in the display if you remove the inverts and don't have live rock or live sand. Along with using hyposalinity I would use a series of three formalin dips. Dip every other day for 45 minutes with an airstone in a seperate container. 20 drops or 1cc per gallon of dip water. If you move the fish to quarantine you should use some Nitrofurazone at 40mg per gallon one dose for 3 to 5 days. Nitrofurazone has some antiparasitic action and it is also a good antibiotic. Keep and eye on the biofilter when you use antibiotics.
Best wishes,
Terry B

[This message has been edited by Terry B (edited 07-21-2000).]

Anemone
07/21/2000, 08:30 AM
Personally, I don't advocate use of medication in a tank (and in the few cases where it is really necessary, then only in a hospital tank). If a fish is that bad off, then FW or formallin dips may help. In the case of ich, the problem is that ich really seems to develop in response to a stress-related suppression of the immune response (whether from poor water quality, inter-species aggression, or just the strain of capture/transport/release in wholesalers tank/capture/transport/release in LFS tank/capture/transport/release in hobbyist's tank). Removing the fish from the tank for a dip procedure is extremely stressful (both to the fish and the hobbyist!), so unless the fish is pretty badly off, the dip may cause more stress-related problems than it cures). If the fish is otherwise healthy, the stressor is removed, or the fish is placed into a healthy system, the fish will "spontaneously" recover on it's own.

Now, as to non-medication treatments of ich, the term "snake oil" comes immediately to mind. Most of the anecdotal reports of "amazing success" using these various products can be explained by one of the "spontaneous" recovery reasons listed above, or the natural life cycle of the ich parasite (gee, the spots went away in three days, so I stopped using "Product X", and the spots came back two weeks later). I could just as easily claim that my new fish developed ich, so I began daily additions of hydrogen peroxide, and several days later the ich was gone, so now I think everyone should add hydrogen peroxide to their tanks. No, I didn't do this, but I have had more than a few brushes with ich that have resolved themselves without chemical or additive intervention (and it would have been very easy to use "product X" during this time and credit "Product X" with the cure).

Sorry this was so long, but I have, um, rather strong opinions on this matter.....

Kevin

Steve Richardson
07/21/2000, 09:02 AM
Hi Folks!

I'm with Kevin, in as much as its obviously a bad idea to medicate a reeftank.... but there are times when it is necessary in Q.

Sam I think has some valid information to contribute too... as long as we don't start getting into commercials for any particular product(s). ;)

As has already been pointed out in several ways... stress, and identification of the disease are paramount in determining a course of action.

-S

Q-ball
07/21/2000, 09:37 AM
Well, I'm not a big fan of using medicines myself...that being said, I had some sort of parasite infestation a few weeks ago that took my beautiful lionfish. Being willing to do whatever I must to help my fish, I resorted to using Greenex on the advice of several friends. I also started soaking their food in pure liquid garlic about a week later. Now, the parasite did not noticeably reduce in number on my other fish during that first week with just Greenex, but towards the end of week 2 (using greenex now for 2 weeks, with garlic for 1 week) there was a noticeable difference. My fish had their full appetites back, swimming more actively, and just looked 100% better. By the end of the 3rd week, the parasite was gone. I stopped using Greenex at that point, but am still dosing with garlic cuz the fish really seem to dig it :D Not a real scientific experiment as there are 4 options as to what worked here: 1. The Greenex did the job itself 2. The garlic did the job itself 3. The Greenex & Garlic worked together to do the job 4. The parasite died on it's own. Now, #4 doesn't seem likely to me, as it obviously had a strong hold on my tank, but other than that I'm not real sure what did it, but my fish are still alive, very healthy and that's ALL that matters to me & Mrs. Q. HTH, FWIW, just my .02...

Q!!!



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Got tired of the last signature, and haven't
come up with a new one yet, so go read something else
=;o)~

billsreef
07/21/2000, 09:08 PM
I have been trying the garlic treatment for the past week myself on several fish at work (one of the side effects of my vacation) so far in 8 days of treatment any fish with light infections cleared up while a couple that had severe (looked like more ich than scales) cases of ich have reduced thier parasite load they are still not cured. As they no longer look they are on death's door I plan on continuing the garlic oil soaked food.

I have also seen several cases of a disease that sounds much like the one that Sam describes. So far I have not found any commonly available medications that are effective and it tends to spread rapidly and is very lethal. However I do have one colleague that claims to have cured some damsels of this with the antibiotic Ciprio. I have also observed that hyposalinity seems to slow down the progression and seems to contain the spread of this but does not effect an actual cure.

Has for the treat/don't treat arguement:

I would remind people that no matter how hard we try a glass box is just not nature. Also sick fish in nature just don't survive a severe case of any disease, just way too many predators out there to take advantage of a weakened fish. And yes I have seen many fish with parasites in the wild, after all why else did some fish and shrimps evolve to eat parasites?

Since our glass boxes are self contained environments IMO it is our responsibility when fish get sick to
1 try and figure out the cause and correct it.
2 If correcting the problem is not enough, take action to cure the fish, after all if you get sick you go to the doctor and take the medication that the doc gives you.

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Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos (http://hometown.aol.com/billsreef/)
ICQ 56222784

DogueDeBordeaux
07/21/2000, 09:28 PM
Thanks for all the replies.My water checks out good on all the tests.I checked them the day i put the yellow tank in.The stress came from moving to dealers tank to my tank.Only two things i can come up with that would make the biggest difference is ph and salt density.Mine are 8.1 and 1.025

TangHeaven
07/21/2000, 09:47 PM
I realize that this thread is very long...but I wanted to say once again that I had great luck with the Greenex in my reef tank. I have about 130 lbs of LR and coral pieces, and trying to catch a fish in it is a true nightmare. I don't care to treat the main tank either...but chasing a fish is major stress for it and everything else in the tank...and removing all the rock to catch the little bugger stirs the tank up pretty bad....so the greenex is the way I would go again....and I pray that I never get anything to major that I do need to tear the tank apart...

Good luck and I hope by now you have solved the problem :)

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Learn by experience-preferably other people's

Tami :)

Terry B
07/21/2000, 11:07 PM
I have to disagree somewhat with Anemone. Freshwater dips are very ineffective for Ich and formalin dips don't work alot better. If you have a mild infection then improving the water quality can sometimes help the fish to recover to a somewhat precarious balance with the parasite. By this I mean that the Ich is still there but the fish can fight it off from becoming a full blown infection for a time. If the parasite is present (and it probably would be in this situation) all it takes is something to upset the delicate balance between the fish and the parasite. Some type of stress including poor water quality could tip the scales.
If you have eliminated the parasite from the fish and system or prevented its introduction in the first place, then NO AMOUNT of stress can cause an Ich outbreak.
Best wishes,
Terry B

JohnL
07/21/2000, 11:32 PM
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