How many T-5's do you need to put over a 75 gallon to keep clams?

[Trumpet12]

I am try to figure out what sort (and how much) lighting I would need if I wanted to keep clams, so I have a few questions. How many T-5's do you need to put over a 75 gallon to keep clams? How much PC light would I need to keep clams in a 75 gallon tank? How much MH light would it take? If this matters, it would be just as easy to put a clam(s) part way up the rock structure as it would be to put it on the sand bed.


Thanks, Trumpet12

[Trumpet12]

I know that there are some knowledgeable people around here.

[DT's_Reef]

I would recommend a 8x54w Tek Light. Very nice fixtures. Good for clams too as long as the tank isn't too deep.

[Peabody]

PC = No amount....they aren't intense enough for 99.9% Croceas and Maximas. I've seen clam after clam die under PCs at my LFS. It's not limited to them because they have a poor tank or something.....it happens time and time again with mis-informed reefers.

T5s - the 8x54 might be good with a proper reflector. However, You have to likely keep them up higher due to the depth of your tank.

MH - 2x250 would be perfect and allow you to keep any clam in your tank, including the bottom. Any SPS would be fine too. 2x175 is a little underpowered for the depth of your tank.

[moonpod]

If you go retrofit, a 6x54 T5HO SLS retrofit w/ four of the bulbs on an IC 660 will work (emperic experience). If you go teklight hood, you might as well use the 8x54w (the bulbs will not over hang the tank). From experience I can tell you the clams will be fine. Use a mix of 6500k and blue plus bulbs IMO.

[Trumpet12]

Thanks DT, moonpod, and Peabody!:)

Peabody said that some sorts of clams like to jump off the rocks onto the substrate, and I have read that some sorts of clams will fall off. Do croceas and maximas jump/fall off rock structures?

How high up in the tank would the clams have to be for an 8 bulb T-5 fixture to work?

One of the main reasons that I originally thought I didn't want metal halides was that many had to be hung. How do people usually do this and how hard is it? The other option on metal halides seems to be a hood, but those cost around $700 (or at least that is about the price that I have seen) when they have two 250 watt MH lights.

[Rothie]

The 8X54 T5 Tek fixture willover hang your 75G. The 6X54 fixture should be fine for clams.Keep Croceas and Maxs up in the rock closer to the lights.The reflectors are really impotant for the T5's.There are some good threads in the Lighting and Filtration forum about T5's and clams.

[moonpod]

Again, emperic experience. They probably can be pretty much at any depth in the tank. HOWEVER, when I was doing this I generally try to keep my croceas in the rocks anyways, so they ended up higher up. The maximas were all over the place. IME once the clam is "settled" down, they don't jump around/fall over. Croceas in particular seem to really attach down to rocks.

[moonpod]

Originally posted by Rothie
The 8X54 T5 Tek fixture willover hang your 75G. The 6X54 fixture should be fine for clams.Keep Croceas and Maxs up in the rock closer to the lights.The reflectors are really impotant for the T5's.There are some good threads in the Lighting and Filtration forum about T5's and clams.
Yes the fixture is 19" (tank is 18"), but the bulbs will not overhang the tank....there's at least an inch on either side of the bulbs in the fixture, so I would think it's reasonable to stick the 8 bulb hood over the top.

[Trumpet12]

Wow! Lots of fast replies! Thanks everyone.:)
So, is the 6 bulb T-5 fixture enough or would I need the 8 bulb? Also, if the T-5 tubes are so small, how come a 324 watt T-5 fixture is more than twice as wide as my 260 watt PC fixture?:confused:

[moonpod]

reflectors.

Clams are light hungry--it's hard to give 'em "too much". There's "enough" and there's "more". Get the 8 bulb fixture if you're going for the hood.

[DT's_Reef]

Listen to Moonpod (and me), and go with the 8x54w Tek light if you're going to buy T5 lighting.

However, I feel you should go with whatever lighting you feel would fit your need the best, regardless of cost. A couple or few hundred dollars won't really make a difference either way over time. Heck, clams often cost $100 a piece. Get what you really want.

[Rothie]

Listen to Moonpod-he is the T5 guru.

[moonpod]

Originally posted by DT's_Reef

However, I feel you should go with whatever lighting you feel would fit your need the best, regardless of cost. A couple or few hundred dollars won't really make a difference either way over time. Heck, clams often cost $100 a piece. Get what you really want.

DT has a good point here. Clams are pricey. Now JME, you don't HAVE to have MH lighting to keep 'em happy, but it's easier w/a quality MH system. Don't get me wrong, IME, T5s do just fine w/clams. But, IME, sps growth is very slow w/T5s (course I also have a big tank for doing the fluorescent thing realistically, and I'm no sps pro realisitically). So if it's just for clams, yeah T5s are fine, and if you go w/the teklight hood you'll have very low heat issues and the 6500k bulbs anyways will last a REALLY long time. If you're considering sps, T5s work, but growth is really slow. Shallower systems T5s and sps seem to get along well though. Personally I switched from T5 to DE MH, and I would say the jury's still out on the switch, but by the numbers, it should be much more light.

[Trumpet12]

Okay, if I get T-5's I will get the 8 bulb fixture.
Could anyone give me a lumens per watt measurement for a T-5 bulb? Are the bulbs really more efficient, or is it just that the smaller bulb sizes means that less of the light that goes up, then gets reflected back down, is blocked?

[DT's_Reef]

I believe T5's are so intense because they block less of the light that's reflected, because they're smaller. A good reflector is *critical* which is why I recommend the T5.

FWIW, I'm using a 4x39w Tek Light on my 90g SPS tank in addition to 2x54w T5's with Tek reflectors, and I've gotten good SPS growth and color. This is a loaner while I wait for my Giesemann system (which I should get next week, after waiting almost 2 months) and I've been using it for a while. I don't think this light is intense enough for crocea and maxima clams long-term, but I wouldn't doubt that the 8x54w fixture would be just fine for both clams and SPS.

However, in the grand scheme of things, I still prefer halide, as my tank is SPS/clams.

[eums]

i have T5 lighting. my clam had been in my tank for ~a month. there is 14" of water in the tank so about 13" above the clam. i have the 4 bulb setup and it seems to be doing good and has added a layer to it's shell. i even have sps at the same depth growing.

here is a picture of the clam ( crocea )

http://members.aol.com/moraleislow/crocea2.jpg

if its still doing great after another 4 months i will think about getting another. but IMO its doing just fine, but if it starts to decline it will go to a home with MH lighting. i don't think i would have too much trouble giving it away if i needed.

[Daniel62]

OK, here is another lighting opinion question. Tank size 72"l x 48"w x 19"t. This will be a look down tank. I was thinking of 880 to 1320watts vho. SPS will be Only Monti's, LPS and any type of clam I want. Heat and Power usage is a factor. I know more is usually better, but I think you can over do It. Also there are 2 sky lights 24x48 directly over the tank. So witch light do you think will do the job without being overkill. 150de, 175de, 250de etc.
150se 200se 400se. the light will be 18 to 24 inche over the tank.
Thanks Daniel

[eums]

i would not use vho for those. there is no such thing as a 175w de .... if you use 250de's your going to be using ~1500+ watts with a set up cost of say $2100. maybe a little less, you may want to just buy a case of 10 bulbs as your going to be needing them sooner or later(use electronic ballasts as electricity will be a huge savings in what ever you pick) ( the $2100 is 6 ice cap ballasts with ROIII pendants with and $100 bulbs, it will be less but always figure its more )

you could use 250se's but you would have to buy pendants or make some crazy diy thing. price here will varry alot depending on ballast ( still go electronic) and refelctor /pendand if you use a pendant + bulbs will be a little cheaper.

the 150's would not havel enough punch that high up with a allmost 20" deep tank. using 400's would be a waste unless you got 400de's they would be over kill for what you want, put outmore heat and use a ton more electricty

i say 250de's and its going to cost you the petter part of two grand, good luck with the setup.

[moonpod]

My question would be why are the lights gonna be so high up? I understand that it's a top view tank, but pendants don't obstruct that much.

Even 250DE at that height may not penetrate enough (2ft???). I'd SERIOUSLY consider like I dunno 4 1000w MH and dig up some diamond lumenarc reflectors. Otherwise, if you can drop the lights down to a reasonable height (like a foot or less), then go w/6 250w DEs. Personally I'd use the mag HQI, more light, equal effeciency. Especially cause I got a feeling that you're gonna hang 'em on the high side. It'll run you about 1800--bulbs are somewhat of a variable. You'll get a deal on the ballasts, but the reflectors pretty much run about 90-100 period. There is also a fudge factor on the bulbs, as the prices run from 65 a pop for say coralvues to 120 a pop for aquaconnects.

[pets24]

you can keep clams and sps under pc and vho as long as you have at least 5w. a gallon. clans and sps grow faster under mh than any other light. if you wanted to do mh you could get away with 2-3 175w mh eather 65k (faster growth,but yellow) or 10k(white, blue)

[Peabody]

Watts per gallon is meaningless. PAR and how far it penetrates the water is what matters. Different dimensions of tanks and the par of different bulbs makes watts per gallon not work.

And no, just because you have 5 watts per gallon of PCs doesn't mean you have the PAR to sustain clams. Squamosas, derasa, yes they would probalbly be fine. But maximas and croceas? THey wouldn't have good odds of living 6-12 months. I've seen it time and time again in other peoples tanks and even at my LFS. THey have a 55 gallon show tank with 4x65 watt PCs. Corals thrive, lower light clams thrive, but maximas never make it to the 6 month mark. There are exceptions to every rule, but that doesn't make it "ok".

Don't believe me, ask clamsdirect, or East Coast clams, they've both stated here that it's a bad idea. (In fact, Rob from east coast clams was just talking about that in the clam forum)

Our animals should thrive, not just survive.

[pets24]

but inn a show tank the tank is deeper and the clams should be at the top. i have seen clams thrive under vho and pc as long as they are at the top part of the tank. some new forums are out about this issue to so read

[pets24]

I have kept a few clams under power compact lighting and i know several of you have kept clams under vho. thats what it says at East Cost Clams.

[Peabody]

You are confusing issues....of course PCs can sustain some clams, but not all. Most maximas and croceas in PC lit tanks don't last pass 6 months. Occasionally someone will get lucky, but it's not the majority.

[eums]

if you have to have the lights that high off the tank look for 400w DE's there going to put out ALOT of light

[Peabody]

In reference to the PC issue...it's important to keep this in mind:

We all know that these creatures usually take 6 months or so to starve, and they die in the "blink of an eye"....the problem is when they do few people dig up the old threads and say "you were right....I should have listened.....he died a few months later" As a result there are all thse old threads of people "successfully" keeping mandarins in small tanks with feedings and maximas under PCs. It's easy for someone to see all these old threads and think there's lots of folks being successful, when the true number is very, VERY small.

[firemouth4416]

Peabody you say watts per gallon dont matter and tha PC's and VHO wont work?????
Well you have over 12 watts per gallon and I think anything would thrive under that wattage! If you put that kind of wattage with PC or VHO you argument wouldnt hold water. The reason most people arent sucessful with PC or VHO is that they still dont have the wattage they need. So the comparisons ususlly are not similar.
The hard part is getting the right size tank to fit the bulbs over. You could put 6 120 watt VHO's over a 55 gallon tank I am sure you would be sucessful with that setup. Has anyone done that?

[Peabody]

Whoa whoa whoa I never said that. There are people who have successfully kept clams under VHO and PC....I kept a squamosa under PCs once. The fact is, most people (and I've seen plenty in person) who put maximas and croceas under PCs have them die about 6 months later. I've seen it happen in tanks with 4x65s over a 55 gallon, 1x96 over a 10 gallon, etc. All alongside of thriving corals and lower light clams.

Aside from the clam thing...watts per gallon is a VERY poor measurement. What matters is PAR, and how far it gets through the water.

[firemouth4416]

If PAR was available and widely published it would be much more useful, but its not. The only thing left is watts per gallon, as imperfect as it is. The reality is that most people under power when not using MH. Its simply easyier to just get a higher wattage bulb with MH.
Anyway I agree that in the end for super high light demanding applications is simply easyier to go MH. There are just differant applications were somone might not want the look or the other drawbacks of MH. In those applications I think VHO is an option

Why dosnt someone make a simple light meter that you can simply drop in the tank. It could be as simple as a solar powered calculator the size of a credit card. It would simply measure the power that the solar cell collects and rates the light on a scale of 1-10. The light companys should give the away fo free so people can know when to change bulbs and upgrade. Just an idea, Iam full of them good and bad.

[Peabody]

See....that would be cool..... life would be really easy if X animal would thrive under y amount of light and there was some little thing to measure that. Wouldn't that be nice :) (why don't you make one of those and get rich! :) )

The problem is that a lot of newbies (and not so newbies) think or assume that 175 watts of light is 175 watts of light, etc, and it just doesn't work like that. 175 watts of PC, VHO, MH and T5 each have a different amount of PAR. To make matters worse is that different bulbs in all of those catagories have different amounts of PAR. To make matters even worse, MH has the ability to "punch" the PAR through the water very easily being a point source, where the others are spread and don't penetrate the water nearly as well.

Does that mean clams only live under MH? Of course not, I've never said that, and I don't think here anyone ever has. :) The problem is at least 9 out of ten people who purchase a clam and stick it under PCs have inadaquate light. Get enough, have a good reflector, and place the animal close enough and it can thrive......in almost every case I've seen in person (and plenty I've read about on here) that isn't the case though, and the animal is the one that pays. VHOs are a different story.....it's much less of a gamble than PC from what I've seen in people's tanks. T5s seem to be just as good.

[adrinal]

I have the 6 bulb version of the tek light... I really think lots of good light would be waisted on the 8 bulb version on a 75 (18"). Wouldn't a fair amount of light be reflected into unsualbe spots?