The Elegance Coral Project

[EricHugo]

The Elegance Coral Project

Background and Introduction

For many years, elegance corals (Catalaphyllia jardinei) were among the easiest corals to keep in aquaria. Over the past five years, most entering the trade are doomed because of a condition for which there is no known cause or cure. In this condition, the coral adopts a relatively swollen oral disk with a fringe of unextended tentacles. The coral tissue eventually shrinks, and the coral dies despite all manner of experimental intervention.

In some cases, a white opaque mucus-like web may be present. I am not sure if this is an entirely separate condition, somehow related, secondary to the primary condition, or part of the same condition.

There has been much speculation as to why this condition now occurs, and various sources have suggested causes and even cures. But I stress that no research to my knowledge has been done on this condition, and to date none of the potential causes, solutions, or cures seems to have much validity.

These corals are extremely beautiful and desirable. Unfortunately today, the survival of them puts them in a similar class with Goniopora stokesi where survival rates are too low to justify the large-scale collection of them from the wild. In fact, Catalaphyllia appear to be relatively rare species and may be highly overcollected so that populations in some collection areas are threatened or even locally extinct. To continue to collect rare species that have extremely low survival is bad for everyone – it is an economic loss, a resource waste, and a source of great frustration for all those who purchase and attempt to keep them alive.

Not all Catalaphyllia shows signs of this condition. Occasionally, I see them in stores with a normal healthy appearance. During surveys of coral collection areas, I never saw one with this condition in the wild, and of hundreds being held in tanks for export, only a single specimen showed the signs of the pathology. To be sure, Catalaphyllia are being collected from dramatically different types of habitats, and may be collected from very different places from where they were collected years ago when they were easy-to-maintain. I could speculate logically as to many potential reasons for their current conditions and demise, but unfortunately this speculation would be no better than the complete lack of understanding of this condition that currently exists.

Because of the desirability and immense popularity of Catalaphyllia, as well as to learn more about this highly unstudied species, and to help ensure the populations of wild elegance corals and the success of them in tanks, I propose to conduct a formal study of the condition to attempt to determine its cause and any possible solutions so that once again we can enjoy healthy elegance corals in our tanks.

My research field is the investigation of coral diseases with currently unknown etiologies. I would like to volunteer my services to help provide answers to the elegance coral condition. Together with collaborative work from some of my colleagues, I believe we can determine the cause of high mortality resulting from this condition. I will attempt to do this in the most economical and efficacious manner possible, and will provide results to all applicable forums upon its completion.

Methods

I propose to collect funding and material to conduct this work, and to do so in phases so as not to require more funding or material than is necessary.

Catalaphyllia will need to be acquired from various sources, both healthy and affected with the condition. In some cases, special shipping arrangements might be required to avoid delays or exposures that might confound any pre-exisiting conditions from the wild. Corals will be sent either live, or dead and preserved for analyses. Generally, a type of formalin or alcohol fixative will be used, and not everyone will have access to some of the fixative material. I will then examine the corals working from the most obvious to the less obvious. External and gross changes will be documented in live samples with a clear description of the signs, changes, time frames and fate of the coral over which the condition occurs. I will look at the colonization of the surface flora and fauna by using sterile swabs and take samples for live material and freeze them for any future molecular work that might be required. I will prepare histoslides to examine microstructure and look for obvious abnormalities in tissue or zooxanthellae and the presence or absence of intracellular parasites or pathogens. At this point, something may or may not make itself apparent. I will prepare a report, offer my best suggestions for the next phase if the cause is still unknown, and outline the next funding and materials request.

Initial Requirements

Initially, at least, the only thing I would need is corals - as diverse in time and space as possible. For example, ordering 100 corals from the same wholesaler on the same date would be far less valuable than a handful from a number of sources over various time periods to increase the sample diversity. I will need elegance corals from as many sources as possible. The following are sources that should ideally be exploited for sample material.

Direct from the wild
Export facilities
Wholesale facilities
Retail facilities
Home aquaria

Healthy corals – the hard part

Live corals
I would like to obtain 5 –10 healthy elegance corals with at least two of these arranged to be shipped directly from the source to my lab, or to a facility who is willing to ensure that the specimens go directly into a clean covered tank with freshly made seawater using bottled distilled water and clean gloved hands. See protocols below. I will be attempting to contact sources for this material, although if anyone has such contacts and abilities, there efforts would be greatly appreciated.

As for the remainder of the healthy samples, it would require someone with enough experience to determine if a given specimen truly appears to be one unaffected by the condition. This requires either a facility with a regular turnover of Catalaphyllia or volunteers policing local stores to find the rare ones that are healthy. In any case, I think a photo should be sent to me prior to acquisition or shipping for confirmation that it does appear to not be affected. If it turns out to be affected, its not a problem as it will still contribute to the study. However, I have to acquire live healthy specimens as a control. If a healthy (or suspected to be healthy) coral is located and provided, I need that coral to be carefully collected and shipped to avoid any new sources of contamination. The process will be described below in the “techniques” section.

Tissue samples
I know I have seen at least several photos from aquarists’ tanks who have apparently healthy elegance coral in their tanks. I have one, as well. For those who have healthy elegance corals and want to keep them in their tanks (likely everyone!), a tissue sample can be used. The techniques section below outline the procedure.

Diseased corals

Live corals
Catalaphyllia showing signs of the condition can be prepared and sent using the same protocol for healthy corals. These can be from any source where they are found.

It is very important to ensure that no additional contamination occurs until I receive them. For example, if this condition is caused by a bacterium, and aquarists grab the coral with their hands and I run surface samples and find most or all have the unusual presence of non-marine types of staphylococci on them, I would erroneously look at the staph bacteria as a possible causative agent. It would be wasteful to run culture and reinfection studies looking at fulfilling Koch’s postulates when these microbes were all artifacts of human handling. The same is true of air exposure – we really want to limit the number of mold, fungus, bacteria, and other microbial organisms that are common in the air and on surfaces that could confound the tests and make the study longer, more expensive, and more difficult.

Fixed dead corals
If an affected Catalaphyllia is found and cannot be shipped live to me, I can use the whole coral or tissue samples of fixed material. For example, if someone has purchased or seen a Catalaphyllia that they feel has no chance for survival, and might not even last through the shipping process, it can be killed and fixed for study. Similarly, stores and aquarists with access to affected corals that are willing to donate tissue samples or the corals, but only if they are not alive for whatever reason, can do so through fixation. The techniques section below outlines this procedure.

Skeletons, Photography, Direct Counts, and Surface Swabs

If anyone wants to contribute to this study but cannot contribute in any of the ways above, there are still some possibly important bits of data that could be obtained. I can use skeletons of dead Catalaphyllia, photos of affected living Catalaphyllia and photos of the skeletons of recently dead Catalaphyllia, and sterile surface swabs of affected corals from tanks or from facilities. None of these do I feel will provide conclusive evidence of anything, but could potentially be used to support other findings.

Skeletons can be valuable because of the presence or absence of various organisms. The presence or absence of boring algae, fungi, mollusks, crustaceans, and other flora and fauna may be occasionally or consistently present and might deserve further investigation as to whether they play a role in the condition.

Photography is supportive and may be good in terms of documentation. It may also be able to provide evidence of gross changes or factors involved in the condition.

Another bit of information that would be helpful is epizootiological. It would be good to have some idea of the occurrence of this condition. If anyone is visiting a facility such as a fish store, wholesaler, or other source, a simple count of the number of elegance corals present and the number of affected colonies would be very helpful. Please provide the date of the count, your name and contact information, and the name of the facility, along with the count information. You can email me the information at [email protected]

Sterile swabs of coral surfaces could be valuable if the condition involves changes to normal biotic flora, or if there is a parasite or pathogenic microbe that effects the coral by colonizing its surface. If this is the case, sterile swabs could be supportive if detailed tissue work shows this to be the cause.

All protocols for this work are outlined below in the techniques section below.

Techniques

To provide live corals to the study (healthy or diseased)

The water in which the coral resides or freshly made seawater should be made using bottled distilled water and clean salt scoops from closed containers of salt. The coral or any tools coming in contact with the water or the coral should not be used unless previously treated aseptically using alcohol or a commercial aseptic scrub like Hibiclens.

To make or collect water, use a glass container that has been wiped down thoroughly with rubbing alcohol (preferably 90%) or ethanol. All tools used to add salt and stir the container should also be cleaned. Hands should be gloved with latex exam gloves wiped with alcohol or hands should be washed with an aseptic scrub like Hibiclens or wiped with alcohol. Once washed, avoid touching unwashed skin, hair, clothing, or other surfaces.

Water should then be poured into the shipping bag or container. If a bag (Ziploc or fish bag), the bag should be new and relatively sealed and having not been left open to the air. If a container (Tupperware or similar), the container should have its inside wiped with alcohol prior to adding the water.

Corals should be quickly removed from the tank and placed into the prepared water which is in the shipping container. The tissue itself should be handled as little as possible, grabbing the skeleton instead. For aquarists who need to use a local store for bagging and shipping, the closed container should be taken to the store and the same procedure repeated for transfer to another shipping bag. Ideally, corals will be shipped using a double bag with oxygen, with more air than water in the shipping bag. If compressed air is used, the filling tip should be wiped with alcohol prior to inserting it in the bag for filling.

The container should then be quickly sealed and shipped. All of these procedures should be timed carefully to minimize shipping durations. Generally, this means working in the afternoon for a later afternoon pickup. See shipping protocol below.

Tissue sample collection

If tissue samples or fixed coral specimens are being provided, please follow the same aseptic techniques described above, even if it is a dead coral or skeleton. Tissue samples on Catalaphyllia can be obtained easily by using a scalpel, razor blade, or sharp scissors. Tissue samples usually require some holding or handling of the coral, so please make sure gloves or aseptically cleansed hands are used. Once the tissue sample is obtained it should be immediately placed into the fixative and sealed. The same would be true of a whole colony that is affected. The colony would simply be dropped into the fixative. I will take care of all subsequent steps once I receive it. The amount of tissue required should be at least 1cm x 1cm and incorporate tentacle and oral disk, if possible and in the more affected parts of the coral. Please do not send tissue samples without fixation. They will deteriorate rapidly in seawater and be unusable for study. See fixative instruction for methods.

Photography

I will gratefully accept any photographic documentation of Catalaphyllia with the diseased condition. It might help to just take a digital camera to a few fish stores and snap some photos. I am especially grateful for photographic support of corals that are either sampled or sent to me alive or fixed. In fact, I would be very pleased to receive photos prior to receiving coral material to ensure that it is the right condition. I will also appreciate any additional photos of the tank as a whole, especially in relationship to the elegance coral. If anyone has lost an elegance coral to this condition, but has retained the skeleton, I would like to see photos of it from all angles and extremely close-up, if the camera has this capability. Please do not provide photos that are out-of focus or do not show clearly the structures or animals being photographed. You can mail hard copies to either of the addresses above, or email digital or scanned images to the email provided above. I do not have any practical limitation on size of files, and I have very fast internet lines at home and work, so don’t hold back on file size or number of files. Please provide the following information with each photo:

Your name
Date taken
Basic photo description
Contact information
If the photo accompanies other material being sent or is a stand-alone photo documentation.

I will probably ask other questions upon receiving them, but this information is fine for the time being.

Shipping

Live corals
Please use an overnight delivery service, and try to arrange for the latest possible pick-up time so that the coral spends as little time in transit as possible. Before you send anything, confirm with me the planned ship dates so I can be sure to be available or have someone available. Do not send any live animals to my lab address as there could be significant delays before they make it to my lab.

Send all live shipments to my home.
Please contact me by email to [email protected] for my home shipping address.
You do not need to require a signature release. All the drivers know me.

After confirmation with me for receiving a shipment, please email me the tracking number to [email protected]

Live corals should be packed in bags or containers and ensured that they do not leak. Double bagging or sealing of containers is highly recommended. Make sure that the boxes are well insulated with peanuts or Styrofoam, and if you are shipping in cold weather, to make sure to use a heat pack. A fish store will likely be able to provide these and the proper number for the climate at the time. Generally, one or two will be fine for small boxes. If the weather is extremely cold (or hot) please wait until more moderate conditions occur.

Fixed tissue samples, skeletons, and other non-living material

Please send these by regular ground service of your choice to the following address and make sure that if liquids are present, especially alcohol or other fixatives, that containers are rigid and well sealed, preferably with screw-on lids rather than snap-on lids. If you are sending glass containers, make sure the box is well packed and padded to avoid breakage.

Eric Borneman
Department of Biology
University of Houston
Science and Research Building II
4800 Calhoun Rd.
Houston, TX 77204
Ph 713-743-2667

[EricHugo]

Fixation instructions

I have pasted a bit of text on fixation below from Histotechnique for information purposes. The purpose of fixation is to preserve tissues permanently in as life-like a state as possible. Fixation should be carried out as soon as possible after removal of the tissues or soon after death to prevent autolysis. There is no perfect fixative, though formaldehyde comes the closest. Therefore, a variety of fixatives are available for use, depending on the type of tissue present and features to be demonstrated. There are common usages for fixatives in the pathology laboratory based upon the nature of the fixatives, the type of tissue, and the histologic details to be demonstrated.

Formalin is used for all routine tissues when an H and E slide is to be produced. Formalin is the most forgiving of all fixatives when conditions are not ideal, and there is no tissue that it will harm significantly.

There are two major groups of fixatives for the work required in this project, classified according to mechanism of action:

* Aldehydes
* Alcohols

Aldehydes include formaldehyde (formalin) and glutaraldehyde. Tissue is fixed by cross-linkages formed in the proteins, particularly between lysine residues. This cross-linkage does not harm the structure of proteins greatly, so that antigenicity is not lost. Formalin penetrates tissue well, but is relatively slow. The standard solution is 10% neutral buffered formalin, although for coral tissues, 10% formalin in seawater will work. There are a number of available fixatives that are better, including a modified Helley’s solution, paraformaledhyde recipes and a brand called Z-fix, that are especially good for coral tissue. If anyone has access to these chemicals, let me know via email because this would be the best for most of the histology assays I will use. I can provide detailed instructions if this is something you can do.

Glutaraldehyde fixes very quickly so is good for electron microscopy. It penetrates very poorly, but gives best overall cytoplasmic and nuclear detail. The standard solution is a 2% buffered glutaraldehyde. I do not expect to have to do EM at this point, although I might in the future. However, I can use tissue from affected live corals and really don’t want anyone unskilled to use glutaraldehyde. It is pretty nasty stuff.

Alcohols, including methyl alcohol (methanol) and ethyl alcohol (ethanol), are protein denaturants and are not used routinely for tissues because they cause too much brittleness and hardness. Alcohols, specifically ethanol, are used primarily for cytologic smears. Ethanol (95%) is fast and cheap. Since smears are only a cell or so thick, there is no great problem from shrinkage, and since smears are not sectioned, there is no problem from induced brittleness. Because coral tissue is only two cell layers thick, alcohol works. It is difficult to work with the tissue later on, and some assays cannot be performed if alcohol is used as a fixative, but I will be able to get some results if they are used. They are the most easily available for most persons. Ideally, ethanol should be used by purchasing small bottles of pure grain alcohol from a liquor store and diluting it to 70% with freshly made artificial seawater. I would use about 1/4 of a teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) in the mix, as well, to act as a buffer, if the fixative volume is around 250-500ml (8-16 ounces).

The volume of fixative is important. There should be a 10:1 ratio of fixative to tissue. Because corals have skeletons, this must be included since the fixative will soak into porous skeleton and be unavailable to penetrate coral tissue.

Sources for materials

90% rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol for surface sterilization is available at most major drugstores.

70% rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol for fixation and less effective surface sterilization is available at drugstores, supermarkets, convenience stores, etc.

99-100% ethanol is available as pure grain alchohol from liquor stores. It is often sold under the name Everclear. Ethanol is worth the effort to acquire, though it costs more than rubbing alcohol. It is an extremely good surface sterilizer, evaporates very quickly, is much more ideal for fixation of tissues, and is relatively non-toxic to humans and organisms in the aquarium.

Sterile swabs, syringes and containers are available at some drugstores and laboratory supply houses. Most veterinarians or your physician will likely be willing to part with some, too, if you ask them.

Please contact me by email for further inquiries.

Support for the study

If you cannot contribute coral material but want to support the study by helping to pay for the costs involved in the study of the condition, you may make donations to the Elegance Coral Project Fund. Please send donations in the form of check, money order, or electronic payment to the following address. Funds will be maintained and used as needed by drawing from the account. Any unused funds over 10% of the donation total will be refunded if the research is completed without using all the funding. Refunding 10% of donation totals will be cost and labor prohibitive, and this remaining money will either be saved for any future projects or donated to the investigator for his efforts in the project, to be designated by the request of the donating party.

I am currently working on establishing the fund, and will post the information shortly.

Expected costs

The costs of this initial phase of the project will be directly related to the amount of sample material obtained. Materials costs may vary depending on what is already available to the party. My estimates of average costs per sample are:

1. Cost of obtaining the coral if it is purchased. 25-75
2. Materials required to collect and ship the coral 2-20
3. Shipping costs 15-20
4. Aquarium facilities for gross etiological description 500
5. Chemicals and disposable supplies for sample preparation 5-10
6. Histological services
(2.00 per slide, 6-10 sections stained and unstained) 12-20
7. Prepared sample shipping costs 3-5
7. Laboratory supplies and equipment for analyses of samples (may be
highly variable depending on what is found after microscopic
examination) 10-50
9. Fees for additional researcher expertise/consultation 0-???

It is conceivable, though very unlikely, that the per sample cost if a coral is provided for free, all materials and shipping are available or free, and that the cause of this condition is relatively obvious, that the project could be completed for the cost of the aquarium facilities (unless donated) plus $500.00.

I suspect this initial phase of the project, hopefully successful and conclusive, and excluding the costs associated with obtaining the material for a good sample size of 50 corals, will cost around $3500.00. I think this would be a reasonable goal to try and reach in terms of initial funding.

Absolutely Required Information on All Contributions
(except financial only, which is voluntary)

1. Contact information including name, address, email (phone number optional but highly recommended if I need to talk with you quickly)
2. Tank Information
a. Size
b. Equipment used
c. Maintenance routine, including water changes and salt brand, and any major changes in brands or routines implemented during the ownership of the affected coral.
d. Additives, including food, supplements, and medications, and any major changes in brands or routines implemented during the ownership of the affected coral.
e. Water parameters, including but not limited to pH, alkalinity, ammonia, nitrate, phosphate, calcium, temperature, salinity or specific gravity, and any major changes in brands or routines implemented during the ownership of the affected coral.
f. Length of time the tank has been set-up
g. Any unusual problems or events that may have contributed to this condition.
3. Coral Information
a. How long the coral has been in the current tank (date of acquisition)
b. If alive, how long did it take before signs of the condition were noticed
c. If dead, how long did the coral live before it died. Please include the length of time it appeared healthy, and the length of time it looked diseased.
d. Location where it was purchased or obtained
e. A written description of the condition and any accompanying photographs
f. Any changes in the signs of the condition over the time the coral was in the tank.
g. Any other background information on the coral that is known (Fiji, Indonesia, in three other tanks before the current one, was dropped on the floor by accident, etc.).
4. If this is not the first Catalaphyllia owned, please provide the information above for others and their fate.
5. The date when the coral was removed and sent in for this study.

Example:

Joe Aquarist
15 Griggs Street
Houston, TX 77252
713-555-1111
email: [email protected]

- 75 gallon tank
- 2 years 7 months in operation
- 4 MaxiJet 1200 powerheads, 20 gallon sump, ETS Gemini skimmer, Mag 5 return, 2 x 175w 6500K metal halide, 4” CaribSea oolitic sand bed, 65lbs live rock, Red Sea ozonizer, 1 liter ESV carbon changed every six months
- Kent Calcium 100 ml/week
- Kent Strontium 20 ml/week
- Brine shrimp – approx 1 tablespoon per day
- DT phytoplankton, 50 ml/week
- Red Slime Remover used once, 50 mg, 10/2003
- 10% water change every week using Instant Ocean salt. Used Reef Crystals for the first year.
- Ph stable 8.0-8.2
- Alkalinity stable at 3.5 meq/l
- Calcium varies between 350-450ppm
- Ammonia unmeasurable since week 4 of the tank
- Nitrate was 5.0 ppm but has been 1.0ppm for past three months
- Phosphate levels stable at 0.50 ppm
- Specific gravity always maintained at 1.025
- Temperature varies: 78F in winter, 84F in summer
Notes: this coral was stung by an anemone six months ago, and bleached four months ago. The condition appeared prior to either of these events. I also added a lot of sand to the tank three months ago and lost three other corals at the time.

This elegance coral was acquired from Joe’s Fish Store in Memphis Tennessee in June, 2003. It looked normal when I bought it, but developed a swollen disk and shrunken tentacles two weeks after I put it in the tank. I dipped it in freshwater but it didn’t change the conditions. I tried treating it with Maracyn, but again no effect. In August, 2003 the entire coral appeared shrunken, and a white web formed on the surface about two weeks after it began to shrink. The coral died in the first week of September, 2003. I purchased another one from online corals, inc (www.sickcorals.com) two weeks ago, and it arrived with the swollen condition. They told me this coral came from an exporter in Jakarta. It is still alive and its appearance is unchanged. I am sending this coral alive to you according to the information provided on the project page. I have emailed you photos of the coral taken on January 25, 2004 and provided the information requested. I will remove and send this coral to you on February 6, 2004 as per instructions.

[EricHugo]

Some photos of classic healthy elegance corals:

http://www.athiel.com/lib10/elegance_coral.jpg
http://www.athiel.com/guzman/elegance.jpg
http://www.reefcorner.com/images/BandedCoralAndElegance.jpg
http://www.petsforum.com/fishnchips/photos/0901elegance.jpg
http://pansy-paws.com/aquarium/images/Elegance.JPG
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=277107&highlight=elegance

Photos of elegance corals showing signs of the condition

http://www.guarriello.net/images/Small/elegance.JPG
http://www.acquaportal.it/Articoli/MadeInItaly/AcquariMarino/gherardi/images/Catalaphyllia.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1250658


Photos of healthy and diseased elegance corals together for comparison

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2002/feature/figure27.htm



I would like some more images of the problem elegance corals. It seems that many of my old links to photos are on websites that are no longer working. If you guys run across them on other forums and boards, pls let me know so I can link them. I'll keep looking, too or just take a camera to any fish store in town.

In particular, I would like some clear photos of later stage disintegration and any with the white web on the surface. Funny how many people take shots of beautiful corals and keep them up on sites, and how few when they look badly!

[AcroSteve]

Wow! Good luck Eric.

I would like to have one. I will be watching this progress.

[Sam Pirozzolo]

Eric,
I have an elegance in the freezer waiting to goback to Dr's F&S. I don't know if it died from the issues you want to study. From when I first put the coral into my tank the flesh was pulling away from the edges of the sekleton. The tenticles never extended. They looked like deflated fingers of a glove. The coral excreated some white stuff from the holes in its center.

Anyway as requested by the vendor it is in a zip lock bag with salt. I still have it. I could send you some of the flesh that ejected itself from the skeleton.

If you want some how do I send it?
Sam

[Sam Pirozzolo]

I have 3 pictures of the coral before I baged it. I will send them if you want. I am new to RC and I don't know how to resize my photos yet.

Sam

[crpeck]

Thanks! Once we have a plan going, pm me your email and mailing address and I can start a volunteer list. I know this is something that can happen ... Let's see how Eric thinks it would work.

Another idea that he mentioned that could be organized is a campaign to get LFS or distributors to send him samples. The question would be how many he needs, at what timing and what other funds would he need to do what he needed to do with the specimens when he got them? If we got volunteers across the RC Board to get a commitment from their local LFS to send an Elegance to Eric, that could add up. If not a coral, maybe a contribution. I could design a letterhead/campaign letter or Eric could do up an appeal letter for the volunteer to take to the the LFS store so they know it's legit. If the volunteers let us know what stores they had approached, we could keep track of the number of commitments and follow up with the store and issue Thank you letters, etc.

Retailers would like it if we had a logo or certificate or something that they could display saying they have supported coral research. If we wanted to get aggressive, we could start a campaign to urge a boycott urging people not to buy these corals from any retailer who was not a supporter of the "Borneman Elegance Project".

I know from my other fundraising experience that the more organized you are and the more you can demonstrate a plan to achieve the project, the easier it is to get support. Big donors, if you can get them, want accountability to see where their money went and recognition.

Eric, please let us know how many specimens you need and how much money it would take over what amount of time. Would you have time to do it right now or is this a project to set up to put in motion when you finish what you're working

I'm pumped up about this. There are a number of ways that people can help:

1. Send money
2. Secure a commitment from a LFS to send Eric a Coral
3. Secure a commitment from a LFS to send money. (that one sounds hard ... sometimes I wonder how those stores stay in business.
4. Buy an Elegance from an online retailer and have it sent to Eric

All we need to do is organize it and get it going. I'll wait to hear from you or Eric.

I'm fairly new to this hobby, but in the short time I've been here I've been amazed and often frustrated by the contrast between those who really take the care of the animals they adopt very seriously and those who seem to view their fish or corals like fresh flowers that they use to decorate for as long as they last and then replace them with new. I've appreciated that most if not all of the people I've encountered on this board are the former and not the latter. Elegance have to be one of the most gorgeous and amazing corals. So many of us would give our eye teeth to have one, but have the conscience not to bring in a coral that we don't have a reasonable chance to keep alive. And there are plenty, like the guy who started this thread, that are well meaning, didn't know how bad their odds were, and feel bad to lose one. I think we'll find a lot of support for this project when we get the word out and ask for help.

Orion ... are you still with us? How IS your elegance doing now? See what you've started?
:thumbsup:

p.s. If you want to check on my license, you have to put "Catherine Peck"

http://www.state.tn.us/cgi-bin/commerce/roster2.pl

I'm Treasurer for a non-profit, Engineering World Health that takes donations of medical equipment and sends it to 3rd world countries and runs a summer program for bio-medical engineering students. Check us out at www.ewh.org

Also, I'm on the board of the Women's Foundation for a Greater Memphis, an organization that supports programs to help bring women and children in the community out of poverty.

Just letting you know that I'm trustworthy, heck I was even the treasurer for my son's Cub Scout troup.

If you want to get this going, I can help.

[crpeck]

p.s. I'm okay with whatever name works. I was just throwing out an example. On one hand, Eric's name adds to the credibility because of his reputation and would help raise funds.

On the other hand, I would be concerned that Eric's name might be used by some LFS to cop a legitimacy, pseudo- endorsement or association that Eric wouldn't want just because they donated.

It's probably best to keep Eric's name out of the project name to avoid the second possibility.

[crpeck]

p.s.s.

I've been checking around online to see what the availability is and how these corals are described for care.
Look at this one! They say care is "moderately easy"

http://www.fishsupply.com/cgi-bin/f2/common/store.cgi?dbname=f2&path=top/C/CE/CEE00

Lets buy one for Eric so he can see why this vendor's supply is so easy to care for. Hah!

[EricHugo]

OK - so I have posted the project at the top of the forum. Since CR seems to have the financial abilites and facilitles, it would be great if you could handle the accumulation of the funding. I would hope that this could simply be trusted to be funded through a small set-up account. I could set up a separate account through my University, I think, but would have to check on whether it would all have to go under my NSF account or not.

I can, of course, provide all receipts for costs associated with the project. To umbrella this under an NGO would probably require quite a bit of red tape, and possibly some fnding would have to go to that organization for management. Maybe not, but I'm hoping we wouldn;t have to go there. The campaign idea is a great one, and I need help doingthis....enlisting the services of RC and other forums would be fantastic. I would like to see someone like MAC or MASNA help out, too.

In any case, it is a project I would work on concurrently with what I am doing now. The timing is not too bad, actually, since I am about to send out for about 1200 slides to be processed with white band disease and shut down reaction. The turnaround time for any sample would be about a month or two, and I can process and send them out within a week. What happens from there will depend on what gets discovered...could be days, could be years. Dunno. But, after we tackle this one, we can work on Goniopora. How's that sound? ;-)

Let's move this discussion to the top thread.

[ReefDiver]

Eric:

I am with you on this one! Very worthwhile endeavor indeed. I sent you a separate email on this. I will speak with Danny and try contacting a few of the LFS in CT. Hopefully, this project will take wings and I hope to be keeping Catalaphyllia in my tank in the near future!

Keep up the good work as usual. We are with you. Good luck.

[crpeck]

Great proposal! I see you're already getting some interest.

Yes, I volunteer to handle the fund. If all you need is corals and $3,500 to get started, I don't think we need to complicate it with a formal organization. You're right that your university and research org would want overhead money. We need to pull in one more person for accountability. If I'm receiving the money and you're spending the money, we need one more person to report to that isn't handling money ... Steve? I will set up a bank account and send reconciliations/reports to you and to whomever wants the info. I could even post donation reports on the thread.

You can tell people to send their contribution to:
Elegance Coral Project
c/o Catherine Peck, CPA
6387 Brooks Manor Cove
Memphis, TN 38119

I think it would be helpful to narrow down the instructions you provided in your proposal post to separate step-by-step instructions on a Word document for various scenarios. i.e. If you have a sick coral ... instruction list A, if you have a dead coral ... instruction list B, etc.

I'd like to test the "sytem" by contacting some online sellers with your shipping instructions and see if they're willing to work with us. If so, we can get things started by getting you some corals shipped from them.

You're welcome to send any general inquiries to me or Steve if you find you're spending more time responding to inquiries than doing research. Steve, maybe we can divvy up the volunteer organization if we get as many inquiries as we hope?

Sounds like we're rolling!
Cathy

[MiddletonMark]

Well said Steve - I'm glad that Eric is working on this terrible situation right now, as the losses with Cataphyllia right now are staggering and an ugly spot on the hobby.

Eric - would it be ok to post [quote] the Backround section of your writeup with a link to this post on another site?
As a moderator elsewhere, and a concerned reefer, it would be nice to make sure this is seen far and wide.

Otherwise I can writeup something new, but you do write this stuff more accurately and concisely ... better than my wordiness [and inaccuracy at times].

[ReefDiver]

OK Eric I see we are moving in the right direction! So, where do I send my initial contribution? Is it OK to send it to the address that Cathy posted? Just let me know as I would like to get things rolling ASAP! Danny & I will also be working on getting a few corals for you. I will also be contacting as many LFS in my area as time permits.

[EricHugo]

Fine by me, Steve. If Cathy is ready, so am I.

I'll get to your email shortly.

[ReefDiver]

OK then, I am putting the check in the mail tommorrow. I only hope that others will follow suit. I really want to see this project succeed. Thanks for taking this on. If there is anything else that Danny & I could do at the store, don't hesitate to ask. Good luck.

[crpeck]

Okay! I'm ready too.

I'll set up a separate account tomorrow with a starter donation and set up a related PayPal account so people can contribute online.

In the mean time, checks will work to the address I posted earlier or anyone can PayPal me at [email protected] and put it attention to the Elegance Project.

Each time I receive a donation, I'll post a thank you on the thread so you can see what's coming in.

Let's start getting the word out and see what we can do!

Are there any web design types out there who could set up a page with Eric's write up and how to help in a user friendly format? That way, when we post in other forums or approach non RC members, we could just refer them to a website with all the info they needed to understand the project and how to participate. Just an idea.

[MiddletonMark]

If we can find a host [place to host the pages/pics], I may be able to get it up. I only have my personal webspace - which probably would be all that is needed ... but it might be better to put it somewhere that doesn't seem like personal webspace on an ISP.

I've got a really booked week this week - but I'll look into getting something preliminary together hopefully by this weekend and float it for comment/etc. If it suits the bill - I'm happy to contribute. If you're looking for something else - no hard feelings.

However, photos of healthy and diseased elegance would be nice ... is there somewhere you have some pics up Eric?

[EricHugo]

Yes, but my fire wire drive decided to act up and I have to reset the port....and just haven't done it yet. I will after I get to some emails.

[Vert20]

I can provide the webspace if still needed. Examples of my work are at www.reefobsession.com

Let me know if interested either here or in PM. I have a server standing by and will cover the domain registrations as needed.

Great Project.

[EricHugo]

I just acquired C. jardinei specimen #1 and its being processed as we speak.

[davejnz]

What would be a reasonable donation? as i am on a limited budget but would still like to help this project as much as posssible.My friends Elegance just dided last week(same condition) and its skeleton is still in his tank.Would this be of any value to you?

[texasaggie]

Aquatic World off of Jones Rd and 290 had one the other day...It looked healthy to me but I dont really know much about them.

[crpeck]

Hey Vert,
Thanks for the offer! Mark, can you get together with Vert and Eric and try to put something together? We've got some time. I think if we had something in the next couple of weeks that would be great! In the mean time we can work within RC to get this going.

[crpeck]

Davejnz,
Anything you want to spare would be appreciated and would help accomplish the project.

I think Eric is interested even if it is a skeleton. See if you can follow his instructions for doing the fixative and shipping. Post back for Eric if you have questions.


Thanks!
Cathy Peck

[pixburg-reefer]

This is really interesting! I'm still trying to figure out what you are trying to do, but what I have read so far, it sounds very interesting. I don't think I can help you at all. If you need a skeleton I may be able to send you one, not sure. 1 lfs around here ALWAYS gets them in. Another got in the first one I have seen in a while it was doing "OK" for the first 2 weeks, now, I see it is struggling. It may finally parish soon. I have never owned one my self. But this is very interesting, I would love to help, but don't really think I can. Just keep me in touch with the progress. Thank you very much, as this will be a very interesting and knowledgeable thread to follow.
Kelly

[pixburg-reefer]

let me know in anyway that i can help/ I just read the entire thread and it will be a spectacular project. I belong to pmas, a local reef club, maybe we could pull togeather some money, or find some one with a healthy/unhealthy coral? But let me know about the one in the pet shop. It is not dead, just started to decline a few days ago. It is one of the smaller ones i have seen.
Kelly

[EricHugo]

Sam:

I am interested, but want to make sure this is the right condition...sounds like it might be. Can you send me photos?

On the skeleton, yes, I would be happy to take the skeleton if it died from the condition.

On donation amounts, anything helps, even if only to cover a couple hundred mls of a chemical or to pay postage on a sample being sent. Please also consider the list I posted of the manytypes of non-financial contributions to this project that can be valuable with a little legwork at local stores.

As for PMAS, please bring this thread up to your group at the next meeting. See if you guys can visit the local stores and persuade them to send the sick ones to me...we all know they will die in all likelihood. Yes, please ask if the clubs (any of them) can contribute funding, corals, or any of the other items listed in the initial posts of this thread.

Thanks again everyone, and if at any time I fail to thank each of you personally for your support or effort, I apologize now because every stitch of effort means a lot and I deeply appreciate it.

I have just posted some photo links at the beginning of this thread to compare healthy and diseased examples.

[ReefDiver]

Eric:

I assume that you feel that we are dealing with some type of pathogen as the causative agent? I took a look at those pictures, very interesting to see the changes. This appears very much like a "shut down" type of syndrome, for lack of a better term. Do you know if this will spread from a sick coral in a tank to healthy corals in the same tank? You also mentioned that you have not observed this condition in the wild. So, can we postulate that it may be a result of collection, transfer, and contact with other corals/organisms, or a combination of these? I'm anxious to learn what your findings will be! Thanks for the time.

[davejnz]

Eric,A couple specimens just arrived at LFS,They were from Bali,I noticed a tiny little crab similar to a gall crab only smaller.Is this common?They are being held to see if any are showing symptoms.I have arranged to purchase one and will keep you posted.Would a healthy one or diseased be of more value to you at this point?

[EricHugo]

Dave:
Hang on to that crab!! That can go in alcohol. This may be an issue. If you can send photos prior to purchase let me know. I want to keep a scorecard of donated speciments so we don;t get more than we have to, esepcially in terms of healthy ones. Once we reach the 5-10 number of healthy ones, we shouldn't spend any more resources on those. I have one of them in my tank, of course. Maybe we can put a running tally on the developing website?

Steve: I have no idea if it is a pathogen, but it is certainly possible, and I just don;t wnat any cross contamination if it is a component.

As for contagion, I have no idea but will find out this I assure you. I suspect that the white web is secondary, bacterial, and probably contagious. I don;t think the initial condition is, except maybe to other elegance, but I don;t know. That's why we are doing this.

Steve, also, as for our problems with email, I am going to pm you via the forum with all the email I have sent that you haven;t gotten.

[EricHugo]

Oh - and if someone does want to set up the site, give me the server addy and any passwords so I can work on the site, too, if you want. If no one has the space/time, then I can do it on my page, too, although space will likely be limited as I have really packed that site already and have lots to go.

[crpeck]

Okay all you reefers out there! Eric is starting to get corals and this project is rolling. Had bad would it be for all of us to encourage Eric to roll on this and then leave him stuck holding the bag for all the cost?

I noticed there have been 352 views on this thread so far. If we had only $10 for every view, we'd already have all the money needed for the first phase of this project.

Who out there wants to be part of making a difference?????

I'm still waiting to see who will have the honor of being the very FIRST contributor to this Elegance Coral Project. How about you?

I can take PayPal at [email protected] Just note the payment for the Elegance Project in the message.

Or you can send a check to:

Elegance Coral Project
c/o Catherine Peck, CPA
6387 Brooks Manor Cove
Memphis, TN 38119

I will post THANKS and congratulations on this thread for every donation I receive on Eric's behalf.

Big or small ... it all adds up.

THANKS!!!!!

Cathy

[crpeck]

Oops, typo ...

I meant ..... HOW BAD would it be for us to leave Eric holding the bag?

It would be REALLY bad, y'all so let's get going and chip in.

THANKS again!
Cathy

[pixburg-reefer]

Ok, I will send out my $10 today for you. I will also send an email out to pmas members to see if we all can't help in some way, or some people can go to stores to see if we can get them to donate the sick corals to you.
Are you interested in the DYING elegance coral, or do you want it when it is finally dead? One affect would be their are many many red flat worms in the tank.
It looks like the tenticals are all deflated and pulled in, and it sticks its mouth or center out. It really dosn't look good.
Kelly

[EricHugo]

Dying.

[looser]

Got the address.

Elegance Coral Project
c/o Catherine Peck, CPA
6387 Brooks Manor Cove
Memphis, TN 38119

But who should the check be made out to, Catherine?

[crpeck]

I think you can do either. I'm planning to put "Elegance Coral Project" on the Bank account, but since we're not formally set up as a organization yet, the account is probably going to have to be under my name for now.

Both names will be on the account, so I'm sure they'll deposit either way.

Thanks!
Cathy

[davejnz]

crpeck,I sent my donation via paypal last night.Have you received it yet?

[pixburg-reefer]

ok, i will be going to the lfs soon. I will see what they can do about the elegance.
Kelly

[davejnz]

Eric,I'm e'mailing you a pic of Elegance,the one with crab.I would post it bere but i'm kinda a newbie when it comes to posting pics and re-sizing them

[crpeck]

Congratulations!



David Jones is the FIRST to contribute to the project!




Thanks for the $30

[crpeck]

THANK YOU!

Randall Douglass

Another $15

[crpeck]

Sorry I spelled your name wrong.

Actually, you all may not want me to put your names? Sorry if you didn't.

For the future, please let me know with your donation how you want me to acknowledge.

THANKS for the help so far!

Cathy

[rhdoug]

No problem, Kathy. I mean Cathy...
now we're even.

Eric: FWIW, I have an apparently healthy elegance in my tank since May of 20003. Not real anxious to part with it of course. If you need an illustrator/designer's help with the project let me know. Good luck.

[rhdoug]

whoa...I meant 2003...

[Vert20]

Anyone with photgraphs or high quality images of Elegance Corals (healthy or not) please send them to me at [email protected] so that they can be included on the website we are setting up for this project.

Please only send me files in .jpg format so that I can get them on the site without too much editing. Also please provide accurate tank information (size, water params, lighting...etc) and photo credit info.

The site is active but still going thru some changes so bear with me for a few more days.

http://www.reefobsession.com/ecp

[EricHugo]

Randall: Hold that thought. Let's see how we do with acquisition. If healthy tissue becomes a problem, maybe a little snip of tissue as described in the description would suffice. We may not need it at all, but thanks for the heads up.

[crpeck]

THANK YOU!!!!



Dash4Cash-Racing


********* $50 **********


WOW!!!

[crpeck]

and .... MORE THANKS! .......



To Jennifer Tomczak


******* $30 *******


Keep it coming ........... You all are doing great!


We're up to $175 !!!!!!!!!

[datman422]

Hi Eric, I posted this thread two days ago and a fellow reefer forward me your link. Here is my thread.

Elegant coral...potential problem?
hey fellow reefers, I added an elegant coral in my tank about 4 weeks ago and with the last 2 days, it hasn't been opening a big as it has been the last 4 weeks. I was told that these guys are some what difficult and a bit of a challenge. My tanks is 6 month has been doing very well with great results. Is there anything I need to know about these guys? input plz


With that said, I am curious on that percentage of elegant coral that do make it in captivity. Is it less that 25%? I will forward you a pic of my elegant coral and its health. Good luck on the project!

[EricHugo]

Let's try to keep this thread on the subject of this project. If you are having a problem with your coral, please post it as a new thread. I'll move this post down for you.

[zenya]

I can't believe I missed thas thread for so long :rolleyes:

Good luck,Eric, with the worthy project! Unfortunately all I could do is send my financial contribution as I do not have Elegance coral in my tank anymore. However, I see them once in a while at the LFS here in some numbers and most of the ones that weren't bought look on the last leg in a few days after exibiting fully expanded tentacles for a day or two:(

[crpeck]

************* WOW *****************


THANKS! Gene Schwartz



$100

[crpeck]

**************** $50 ****************


"Cathy I am making this donation in the name of New England Reef.com
I would like to challange other online vendors to do the same.

Thanks
Marvin"

Thanks SO much to New England Reef.com!

How about it other online retailers?????????????? Will you take the challenge??

[Marco67]

Thanks Eric and you guys for moving this along what a great project.
Tstone has put the challenge out to the BRS
I'm sure there will be interest.!

[davejnz]

here's a pic of elegance(the one with the crab mentioned earlier)

[EricHugo]

I've hit two local stores, and will visit a few today looking for elegance corals. If you guys are going to your local fish stores this weekend, please take a pencil and paper and your digital camera. thanks.

[MiddletonMark]

Will do ... if I come home with anything - I'l blame you ;)

I take it get all info we can [when it came in, if possible - where from] ... and pics.
A total count of specimens, amount displaying this problem, name of location, our contact info ... and pics ... and email them to you.

Sounds good, now I can tell my fiance I have to check out the LFS for `research'. Wonder how long that excuse will last :lol:

[EricHugo]

That's it...

[davejnz]

eric,i sent you e-mail regarding the elegance's i purchased.I will be shipping one to you when you feel it is necessary.It is the one in the above pic

[EricHugo]

Dave: I'm ready when you are. I'll be around all week, so just let me know what day. Thanks. I'm off hunting corals today, too.

[64Ivy]

As someone who loved and maintained these corals a long time ago (when they were indeed 'easy'), the mystery of their decline in our tanks over the last has few years has haunted me as few other questions concerning the hobby have. I am thrilled that a serious inquiry has finally begun. My check is on the way.

[crpeck]

Thank you **** Thank you ***** Thank you *****

Ed Ritzer

$25

[crpeck]

***** Thank you ******** Thank you ********* Thank you

..................again ..................

Anonymous donor .................. $100

[crpeck]

I just want to say that I have been blown away by the way you all have come through to support this project. I have passed all of the nice notes you've sent with the donations on to Eric.

What a great group of people on this board! With this kind of support, surely we'll get something done and make a difference.

I have to say this is one of the best volunteer projects I have ever taken on. To see all this support coming in with the enthusiastic and just REALLY nice notes is really fun!

Keep 'em coming ......

In case you've lost the donation information in this long thread, here it is again.

transfers or credit card payments through PayPal:

https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=crpeck%40midsouth.rr.com&no_note=1&tax=0&currency_code=USD

or a check to:

Elegance Coral Project
c/o Catherine Peck, CPA
6387 Brooks Manor Cove
Memphis, TN 38119

[ReefDiver]

Very glad to hear this!

Thanks Cathy for all of your hard work & time. Again, if you need any help, just ask!

Hmmm, I see Eric is out hunting for corals today! Yeah right, after he makes a stop at the local Sushi bar I'm sure! LOL

Cheers,

Steve

[davejnz]

eric,i have arranged to have the coral picked up at my house monday,2-09-04 at 5:00 PM.I will be taking off work early so i can have the specimen ready for shipping.I will be following your protocol for handling/shipping of the specimen.please contact me
tommorrow evening as to confirm tracking number/shipping time.

[crpeck]

************ More THANKS! to post ***************

***************** $25 *******************

.......................Thanks, Skipper!

[Reefmiester]

I will send these pics to Eric separatly if desired. Since I have not mastered the upload size limitations for RC, go to my yahoo photos page and there is a folder titled Elegance problems. You can see several there. Thought I would do this before sending them all off to you. I have had it in my tank for close 6 months. Up until last month it took up the entire corner when extended.

http:photos.yahoo.com/lebigfishmiester

Thanks!

Randy

[Reefmiester]

Lets try that again...

http://photos.yahoo.com/lebigfishmiester

[Vert20]

Reefmeister-

Please send me the full size photos for inclusion into the site.
[email protected]

Please remember to include the info requested by Eric. There is an example of David Jones sumbission on the site in the Images Section.

http://www.reefobsession.com/ecp

Thank you !

[EricHugo]

Two more sick elegance corals acquired today in Houston!

[EricHugo]

You know, if everyone who visited this thread sent in five dollars, or could talk their fish store into letting them have one sick elegance coral, the first part of this project would be almost done and/or we'd have enough money to really get to work.

I found the stores I have visited receptive. One donated a sick Heliofungia, too. That's another project fo another day, but I will keep it for future work on this species.

Guys, seriously, as a hobby populace, we can get to the bottom of these things. I'm not kidding abot goniopora after this, either. Its next on the list.

Let's make a real contribution to the hobby we love.

[pixburg-reefer]

the one in the pet store arround here has bounced back and is looking healthy again. Now that it is looking better, they will only sell it to me.
And, what is the total amout you have recieved so far?
Kelly

[pixburg-reefer]

hey, PLENTY of sick goni when you want them
Kelly

[crpeck]

Yesterday I went to two good LFS in the Memphis area. Neither one had any Elegance. I printed off Eric's write up and gave each of the owners a copy. Also, made up an index card in case they had a message board:

Elegance Corals
(catalaphyllia)
sick, dying or dead

wanted for reasearch project
by Eric Borneman

www.reefobsession.com/ecp
or call: (my number)

One of the owners was really interested. Said he hadn't even experienced a survival rate of 25% and said he might be willing to order an elegance for the project. Said he'd read Eric's write up and contact us. Eric ... if he emails you directly, his name is Ken.

I wasn't able to talk to the owner at the other store. Saturday afternoon is not the best time to try and talk ... it was a zoo in both stores.

[crpeck]

btw ... The total raised so far is $470

Really awesome response!

[pixburg-reefer]

cool, great job, lets keep going! Totally going to help with the goni project. Then how about dendronephthya?
Kelly

[pixburg-reefer]

oh and, i don't know if it would help, but, bluereefs, here on rc, has a very healthy elegance and it is even producing babies. Maybe you can talk to him about his tank and stuff. Just want to help
Kelly

[crpeck]

***********THANKS!**********THANKS! ************THANKS!

.....................Daniel Huber...................

...........................$50...........................


YAY! This donation puts us over the $500 mark to $520 so far!!!

[Vert20]

Visited three local Charlotte stores with weekend with Camera in hand...not a single elegance.:rolleyes:

Oh well....onward and upward!

[crpeck]

AND ANOTHER *****************THANKS!!!!!!!**************

......................MiddletonMark ..................

............................ $50 ...........................

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by Vert20
Visited three local Charlotte stores with weekend with Camera in hand...not a single elegance.:rolleyes:

Oh well....onward and upward!

Same here in Madison ... but then again - not seeing any Elegance IMO is not a bad thing ... More for the ocean to care for :D

[pixburg-reefer]

we ALWAYS get them in around here. Now, I gust got to find someone to donate one
Kelly

[Reefmiester]

Hey Eric,

How much do you really need for this study to get going...? Rather than waiting for the $$$ to trickle in, throw a number out and maybe someone will foot the bill within reason. Heck if you can give me a reciept, and it is considered charitable, what the heck maybe my company will do it!!!! ;)

[pixburg-reefer]

I think he said total it would be $3,500. But less now, with more than $550 they have gotten in
Kelly

[zenya]

Originally posted by pixburg-reefer
I think he said total it would be $3,500. But less now, with more than $550 they have gotten in
Kelly

Eric,
If there is still problem with funds....let me know and I'll foot the bill for the remainder of the balance that you need . I would love to see this problem licked! Bring on the Goniopora next :)

Gene Schwartz.

[crpeck]

WOW, Reefmeister ... I like your attitude!

Eric was thinking that the initial phase of the research, assuming we can get a significant number of sample corals donated would be around $3,500. That is the goal. We have raised $570 so far

To get you a charitable deduction, we would need to run this through an established nonprofit or file the paperwork to get a 501(c)(3) on our own. Since this has just gotten started in the last week, we haven't done that. If we're going to keep this thing going beyond the Elegance project to study other corals, we may want to consider going that route. For now, we're just unofficial ... collecting the money and using it for the research. Without recognition as a nonprofit, we can't offer a tax deduction for your donation.

But hey ... if your company will foot the bill for the rest of the project, I'll file the paperwork for the 501(c)(3). We'll need to decide on a location/state that we're going to register with, the address of the organization and appoint officers. Our mission certainly meets the requirements for qualification for nonprofit. It just takes some red tape to make that official that we don't have as yet.

Any attorney/reefers out there that want to volunteer to help us set up a recognized non-profit?

Cathy Peck

[crpeck]

Awesome ... Gene ... You're in there, too.

Looks like we ought to go ahead and set up a research nonprofit to keep this going!

Eric .... Whaddayathink?

[zenya]

Originally posted by EricHugo
You know, if everyone who visited this thread sent in five dollars, or could talk their fish store into letting them have one sick elegance coral, the first part of this project would be almost done and/or we'd have enough money to really get to work.



Cathy,

I think this is just about covers it :) This body of reef enthusiasts and plain reef maniacs can lick any problem with a right direction and right attitude that comes down from a guy like Eric H.
I'm proud to be a part of it! :)

[EricHugo]

Gene, Reefmeister, and other most generous and thoughtful persons:

I cannot and will not throw a number out there because I don't know what will be involved yet and will not accept funds for this project beyond the original estimate until I have some idea what is going to be entailed. This initial phase will either illuminate the problem, or give me an idea of what will be required in subsequent work.

As I said in the thread that started all this, it will require some fair amount of work. As I told Cathy, I have spent many hours already just cataloguing the sparse information we have so far and in the specimens I have acquired.

Right now, all the money in the world won;t do any good if we don;t have a good sampling of corals with the condition. Clearly, funding could buy opportunities for me or someone to go travel around until they were found and purchased. But, that really shouldn;t be neccesary.

As I said, I think it is important to have a sampling in space and time. If I get all the corals from local stores in Houston over the next few months, we are dealing with likely one or two coral sources witha similar time and perhaps place of collection that may not validate a condition that is occurring with elegance corals from other places and/or situations.

This may turn out to be a pattern of death related to various stresses, a single bacterial pathogen, a parasite, a tank condition, an artifact, a handling effect. I don't know. It may be one thing, or several things with the same appearance. That's why its important to get a more random sampling.

Point is, coral samples are what it takes first. Leg work and photos and shipping. These amazing offers will definitely come into play as the true costs for the project become more apparent.

Right now, the only costs I have are those listed and some facility charges for housing living specimens (bulbs, power, salt, tanks, etc.). I have a local facility who has agreed to donate a full tank system for the duration of the study provided the operating costs for that system are met....likely less than the estimated $500 it would have taken to establish a new system.

We may wind up using any windfall on that amount or surplus donation funding to acquire the specimens neccesary, depending on how things progress over the coming weeks and months. I will be contacting wholesalers and exporters this week, but any efforts by others (especially those with stores or friends/close ties to stores, would be very valuable right now.

Again, thank you all so much.

[zenya]

Eric,

In addition to funds I'm going to visit my LFS and ask them to donate(or I'll buy all the speciemens that are showing the simptoms) live corals if i see them in the store or I'll buy them and send them to you for the research purposeses. This deaths has to stop and i really want to have one that will live for a long time
:)

[Ereefic]

I have dead skeleton that I can send you. It died a couple of months ago and the skeleton has just been sitting in the refugium. If you want it, let me know.

[revjlw]

Eric - or anyone else for that matter - do you have a picture of this white net type thing? I got an elegance from a California source that seems to have a mucous-like covering in the morning. It sheds it by mid-day and looks like the healthy pictures at the top of this thread, but who knows what it will look like in a month. I am setting up my digital camera to take pictures at lights on, mid-day, just before lights out and will take them about once a week til furthur notice if that will be helpful. Let me know - Thanks. JW

[zenya]

Eric,

I have found two specimens with what looked like the classic symptoms but I did not have the camera with me as I was told on a phone that they did not have any, well they were wrong :rolleyes:The owner is holding them for me so I can go back tonight when I get the chance to get out of the house and I'll take pics and post'm here.
If you say that you'd like to have both or just one I'll arrange for the overnight shipping from the store.
What is the deadline for collecting specimens?

[crpeck]

******* THANKS! ********* THANKS! ***********THANKS!

..............................Jeanne Warner.........................

.....................................$50....................................

[crpeck]

Hi All,
We have a separate bank and PayPal account for the Coral Elegance Project now.

The new PayPal link is:
https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=CoralResearch%40midsouth.rr.com&no_note=1&tax=0&currency_code=USD


or you can just PayPal to : [email protected]

The mailing address is still the same.

THANKS!
Cathy Peck

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

Hi Eric, I thought I posted, but I don't see it now, Oh well. Anyway, I have 2 green elegance corals. I got one from liveaquaria and one from pet solutions. The one from liveaquaria has tripled in size and I have only had it 2 months. The one from petsolutions looks horrible, I got it in Jan. I thought it would have perked up by now, but to no avail. I feed it the same as my other, with a turkey baster every other day. It does eat, but still looks bad. here are some pics


The healthy one
http://www.babiesonline.com/imagegallery/gallery_image.asp?p=%2Fbabies%2Fa%2Fashleyamy%2F2817985%2Ejpg

The sick one

http://www.babiesonline.com/imagegallery/gallery_image.asp?p=%2Fbabies%2Fa%2Fashleyamy%2F2818053%2Ejpg

http://www.babiesonline.com/imagegallery/gallery_image.asp?p=%2Fbabies%2Fa%2Fashleyamy%2F2818056%2Ejpg



Should I remove the sick one? Will it pass it's disease to my healthy one? Thanks in advance!

Amanda (p.s. I have e-mailed pet solutions this issue, if he credits my card, you can have the sick one!)

[EricHugo]

Gene:

You are far too generous and I thank you and the hobby will thank you. There is no deadline and we are a long way from getting enough sick corals. Right now, I am in a bit of a quandary because I want to observe and play with the sick corals for a time prior to killing and fixing them. I think this is important. I also don;t want to have other variables involved, not do I want to have other things happen in the interim while sick corals are still alive.

I think, depending on the sample size, I will fix a set, observe a set and then fix them, and compare.

I am sitting ready for shipments of corals. One is arriving today.

Ereefic, The skeleton may be of some value depending on how the coral died....did it die of this condition? I think a photo would suffice, because by now the amount of growth on the skeleton would preclude any endolithic comopnents that might be involved.

Amanda: your sick one is withdrawn but its hard to say if thisis the right condition..it might be but really looks more like an unhappy elegance. If your healthy one has tripled in size in two months, you have a world record...I suspect, the polyp expansion of it has increased and is deceiving in terms of actual growth. These corals grow quite slowly and any growth of that magnitude would be unheard of. On this one, can you repost a photo weekly of the "sick one" so I can keep evaluating it? It might turn out to be a good one for the study...don;t know yet. I also do not know if yours has a disease, if this condition will be one or many diseases with the same signs, or if it is contagious (though I do not think it is, although perhaps secondary things might be).

Rev, on the white web, I will search for a photo...I do need to find a good one, and can use some help from anyone who wants to look around for a photo of it posted in other threads.

I have got to get busy on some things now.

thanks everyone!

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

Well, I think my coral has now passed away, it's completly retracted and has white slimey stuff all over it. Craig Chadwell from Pet solutions has e-mailed me that he actually has read the post here at RC and is aware of the elegance problem and is going to fully refund my money and is even going as far as to stop selling the elegance. I'm taking my coral out of the tank today. If you want it, let me know.


Amanda

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

Here is the e-mail I have received from Petsolutions...

Amanda:



Thanks for the e-mail. I was just reading the Reef Central post on the Elegance from the Research Biologist at the University of Houston.



It is obviously a disease that is progressive as our husbandry team is certainly aware of the potential and would have caught it. I have no problem doing what it takes to make you happy. After reading his studies, I am concerned that any others that we (or that anyone else) might ship you have a great risk of developing the same problem. Yours is the first problem that I have heard of with the Cataphyllia.



I will credit you for the Elegance and let you make the decision. If you want to include it in your next order, please feel free to do so. Is that fair?

Feel free to reply e-mail or call (800.737.3868) with questions. We are here for you.

Sincerely,
Craig Chadwell
Live Deliveries Manager

[Vert20]

Amanda- If you decide to include this coral in the study, please contact Craig again and see if he can get specific collection data on this coral. That may prove helpful. You can send the images you have and that info for inclusion in the site we are doing.

Send the info and images to : [email protected] and I will get them on the site when you decide one way or the other about donating the specimen.

Craig: If you are reading this, thank you for your proactive judgement. Any chance you have some still there that you can photograph and obtain the info? If need be I will purchase them and have them shipped to Eric if they fit the description of this condition.

Contact me at the above email address or on the ECP site under the "Webmaster" tab.
http://www.reefobsession.com/ecp


Thank you all!

[EricHugo]

If the coral is not dead, then please try and fix it as quickly as possible in 70% ethanol as directed in the beginning of this thread and send it. Thanks. email me with specific inquiries.

[crpeck]

***************** THANK YOU ************** THANK YOU *************THANK YOU!


................................... Logan J at .............................

******************************* CaptiveRaisedCorals.com *******************************


......................................$25..........................................

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

I can't do it. I"m sorry, I just can't murder it. I still feel guilty for murdering my mantis shrimp. I can't kill this coral, it still feeds.

Amanda

[EricHugo]

Allrightee.....

I understand. I think of it as euthanasia, since the coral is obviously "suffering" and will die. And, it will hopefully prevent the death of others. But, its a personal decision. I respect you for it.

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

If you want to come and get it, I'll be more than happy to hand it over for you to do what ever you want to with it, I'll even make you lunch :) I don't know what to do, I want to help, I really do! SO, I just pick it up and drop it in a bag of grain alcohol? Will it take long to die, will it freak out? Will it cry?

[zenya]

Eric,
Here's a half dicent pic of one of the two specimens that I had found.If image isn't good enough to see anything,let me know and I'll make another trip tomorrow and bring my tipod.I didn't want them to handle the coral and it was way back in the tank.

[zenya]

Hmmm, for some reason it did not attach:rolleyes:

[zenya]

One more, this one is quite bad after shrinking

PS.Forgot to say that both came out of Jakarta.

[EricHugo]

Not really classic, but pretty sure this is it. The second one moreso. Its sometimes hard to tell the difference in a late progression of this condition, unexpanded and unhappy, stressed, or what. The opacitiy on the tentacles of the second one is a pretty good bet, and the edges of the first, but not sure. I'd take them both as perhaps they will be the saem, and perhaps it will show up as another pathology because this looks more like the sick elegance 3 I acquired that was in worse shape than elegance 2...

Amanda: If you can send or post a photo, I could tell you a lot more - like if it is what we are looking for, but if sounds like it. In terms of the process, the ethanol will kill it fairly quickly, but let me say this...

Corals are extremely primitive animals. They have no centralized nerve structure, not even ganglia. They do not have pain receptors and nothing to receive the signal if they did. They have what is called a nerve net, a simple structure of response structures. They are very receptive to "smells" but only in a retract or expand sense.

Your mantis shrimp, in comparison, is very advanced, very aware, and very smart. It is probably sentient to some extent. Clams are very advanced by comparison. Corals are not. It will feel no pain and certainly seems even theoretically less that what it is likley going through right now.

[zenya]

Eric,

I'll be in the store tomorrow to arrange for shippment and I'll oversee or remove them myself with gloved hands and will prepare the bags with oxygen.
I have the address for shipping and the phone.

On a side note,Eric, in person they look much worse and it is due to my poor photography skills that I couldn't capture this clear enough for you to see. I'll try again tomorrow when I'll take it out of the tank,perhaps I will be able to take better images.

Oh,yes, which day this week is convinient for you to recieve this shippment?

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

OK, here are some pics I took today of my healthy one and my sick one. If you are sure it won't feel pain, then I suppose I can send it. It still breaks my heart and I would rather send it alive. I have a perfect box that I received a coral from today to ship it in. I even have heat packs. Are you sure you don't want it alive? It still eats, I just fed it today.

Here is the healthy one
[img]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showgallery.php?ppuser=39162&cat=500&thumb=1[img]
[img]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=26172&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500[img]

Here is my tank, you can see both elegances
[img]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=26171&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500[img]
[img]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=26174&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500[img]

Here is the poor little sick one
[img]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=26173&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500[img]
[img]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=26175&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500[img]


Amanda

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

oops, oh well, I guess I blew that one. How in the world do you get pics to show up on the post? I thought I followed directions!
Anyway, look in my gallery.

[zenya]

Originally posted by AEALOVESHERGIRLS
oops, oh well, I guess I blew that one. How in the world do you get pics to show up on the post? I thought I followed directions!
Anyway, look in my gallery.

Amanda,

Try enclosing url with those , it seems that you are missing the backslash in the back tag.Also, make sure that you copy url from properties and not from the top of the page(address)

Like this http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/39162102_0299__Custom_.JPG

[crpeck]

******* THANK YOU! *********** THANK YOU! ************* THANK YOU!

.................................. Al DeCrescenzo ...............................

..............................................$30........................................

[crpeck]

WOW ... Gene ... That is a gorgeous picture!

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

Thanks, it's mine!

Check out my gallery.

Amanda

[zenya]

Originally posted by crpeck
WOW ... Gene ... That is a gorgeous picture!

Oh NO, this is not my picture, I was just trying to help Amanda to post her pic and used it as an example.Sorry for the confusion but I agree, it is a great picture :D

[crpeck]

I just did! Great pictures. Gorgeous Elegance.

A nice inspiration to remind us what we're all working toward here with this project.

Cathy

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

Thanks!!

[crpeck]

************ THANKS! ************THANKS! *************THANKS!

.................................. Reef Cherie .............................

..........................................$20...................................



************** We're at $695! ****************

Who is going to be the one to push us over $700?????

All donations, large or small will help accomplish Eric's research! Every donor is a part of this project! Keep 'em coming.

****************** THANKS! *******************

For PayPal:
https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=CoralResearch%40midsouth.rr.com&no_note=1&tax=0&currency_code=USD

Or mail a check:
Elegance Coral Project
c/o Catherine Peck, CPA
6387 Brooks Manor Cove
Memphis, TN 38119

[EricHugo]

Gene: thanks. I'll be looking for them
Amanda: it appears that at least one of your photos shows an elegance coral with the condition I am interested in.

Thanks, everyone, for the donations to date. I'll try to do a progress summary and make sure the website is updated within the next few days...as you might imagine, my email over-runneth right now with inquiries and information regarding this project. I am trying to keep up and sort through it all. be patient with me.

thanks....and find me some more sick corals!!

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

OK, my coral is now covered with white slime every morning and it has stopped feeding. It is definetly still alive though. I'm ready to send it to Coral heaven. So, I put it in 70% pure grain alcohol and 30% water? Is that RO water? I will ship it UPS NEXT Day Air to try to preserve as much as possible, OR I will try to ship it alive. Which do you want?

Amanda

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

Where do I get grain alcohol? Is it the same as rubbing alcohol?

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

Well, I have a dilema...
I was looking closely at the sick coral and noticed that on it's base there are some cool hitchikers on there. I'm not even sure what they are, I'll take a picture if i can close enough. Now I don't know what to do.

[crpeck]

WOW!********** AWESOME!*********** WONDERFUL! ********THANK YOU!


........................... Gene Schwartz ..........................

...................... another $200 .......................

********Gene, You're the greatest! **********

Nowif Gene believes in this enough to send so much, surely you all can kick in $10 or $15. It ALL is appreciated and makes the statement that you're behind this project.

Thanks!
Cathy

[davejnz]

Eric,I know your getting tons of e-mail so i'll just post here.How's that elegance that i shipped holding up?Is it healthy?On a side note,the one that i kept has opened up fully today and was probably withdrawn due to acclimation(still keeping my fingers crossed)Although it has yet to show a feeding response with frozen mysis,maybe i'll try another food.

[EricHugo]

Dave:

I told you it looked poor for several hours after intorduction and I wasn't certain it was really healthy. Well, its really healthy. Doing great. It is control species #1, and I thank you.

I am expecting four more sick elegance corals tomorrow. Sick elegance number three, acquired here in town, is on its last leg and is out of the live study. It will be fixed for histology within the hour.

[revjlw]

Hey Eric, If you effect a miracle cure do we get our revived elegance corals back? (VBG)

[EricHugo]

you betcha!

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

Need help!!!! Can't find grain alcohol anywhere in MI, what should I do, my coral is still alive, I want to preserve it asap!


Amanda

[revjlw]

Try the local high school chem lab teacher. Also, try the Walgreens or "Mom and Pop" drug store in town - unlikey that the WalMart or grocery store places will have any. In WI it is not legal to sell Everclear in the grocery liquor departments, though some liquor stores do have it. I got a little formulin from the local college bio teacher, but I would try the local mortician too. Hope one of these works....

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

I will call wallgreens right now, I have tried all the liquor stores and mom and pop as well as rite aid. I also looked under home medical. Wish me luck!

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

Well, no luck at walgreens :o(

[diverrad]

I was thinking about buying this coral. Not sure if it's healthy what do you guys think ?

[EricHugo]

If you are thinking of buying it for your tank, please post in a separate thread. If it is for the study, I can't tell if its healthy, but it doesn't currently show signs of the condition being studied.

[EricHugo]

NOTICE!!

Today I recieved four sick elegance corals. I am greatly appreciative of the effort.

BUT

If you are sending live corals for the study, please take the time to ship them as described and properly. One of the corals today was sent in a small tupperware container in a small box with heat packs directly around the container. there was virtually no air in the container, so the coral sat in a small volume of stagnant water that probably went from very hot to very cold during its journey. This is what it looked like when I opened it (it is now useless for the study).

Two others were packed by a store. In fish bags without air above them, basically just tied with some water in them. They leaked, of course. They were put into a small box with pieces of styrofoam layed around them, totally unsealed to air, and some heat packs under the sytrofoam. The bag water was 56 F. Needless to say, it will be very hard to use these corals, too, since that temperature causes all sorts of stress that confound the study. I will put them into a tank to see if they recover and follow them, but they are not likely to be valuable, either, if they live.

The fourth coral came in a large bag with lots of water and some air, floated upside down on a piece of styrofoam. It also leaked, and had some packing around it, but was in a sealed container so cold air didn't hit the bag. The water temp was 72F, and the coral is fine.

Please, please, please...if you are going to send live corals, please take the time to pack and ship correctly. Its a total waste of effort and money if these small things are not done right. If you cannot or are worried about doing it correctly, please just fix the corals in ethanol or formalin as described, or contact me to determine the best course of action.

Again, I really appreciate the effort, and do not want to see the effort wasted.

[davejnz]

Glad to hear the specimen is healthy,Now we just need 4 more healthy specimens and we're on our way.If anyone out there is shipping live specimens and are unsure how to do so,feel free to contact me and i will be glad to discuss with you how i sent mine.
It arrived at 72 degrees,a little cold but not too bad.

[Doppler]

Eric
I was hoping the styrofoam would keep the coral from ripping the bags.I guess fed-ex was drop kicking it.I'm glad it is ok though.If i can be of any more help to the project please let me know...Nick

[crpeck]

************* THANKS SOOOOOOO MUCH!!! *****************

.........................Nick Colombo ...........................

................................ $25 ..................................

[pixburg-reefer]

so how far along are you now? $1000?
Kelly

[zenya]

Originally posted by EricHugo

Two others were packed by a store. In fish bags without air above them, basically just tied with some water in them. They leaked, of course. They were put into a small box with pieces of styrofoam layed around them, totally unsealed to air, and some heat packs under the sytrofoam. The bag water was 56 F. Needless to say, it will be very hard to use these corals, too, since that temperature causes all sorts of stress that confound the study. I will put them into a tank to see if they recover and follow them, but they are not likely to be valuable, either, if they live.

Eric,

I apologize again for this blunder. I was assured that they know how to pack a live specimen for shipping overnight. And, as I told you before, it was unfortunate that I was unable to make it to the store and oversee it to be sure. I'm really mad about resources wasted and that corals that perhaps could be saved stand no chance in hell now :mad2:

[crpeck]

Originally posted by pixburg-reefer
so how far along are you now? $1000?
Kelly

$920 ... just a little more will push us over $1,000.:)

If you want to follow it, all the donations are listed on the website: www.reefobsession.com/ecp

Cathy

[zenya]

Originally posted by crpeck
$920 ... just a little more will push us over $1,000.:)

Cathy

I can't believe that we are still under a thousand dollars for this project. No one out of 50K members has 10 bucks laying around that could be put to use for a worthy cause?:rolleyes:

:eek:

[crpeck]

I don't know, Gene .... so far we have received donations from just 17 people. You have been by far our biggest supporter ... THANKS!

[EricHugo]

Gene: I had to go ahead and fix yours...they weren't going to make it. Sigh.

Dave: your healthy one is indeed healthy.

Cathy: Don't say I didn't tell you. 2458 views...at this point, one dollar from everyone who has read this would put us where we need to be.

As far as elegance corals, I have one useful sick elegance donated, and one healthy elegance donated. Plus the three I have provided.

I'm not quite sure what to do at this point.

[EricHugo]

I've posted 8215 times here, some 30,000 more between other forums over the years, save countless thousands of corals for people, including elegance corals....and I can't get a buck from them with the exception of 17 people.

Kind of makes me want to quit, you know?

[zenya]

Originally posted by EricHugo
I've posted 8215 times here, some 30,000 more between other forums over the years, save countless thousands of corals for people, including elegance corals....and I can't get a buck from them with the exception of 17 people.

Kind of makes me want to quit, you know?

I didn't even want to bring this up,Eric, but it was burning in my mind... believe me.
I hope it doesn't come to this,for everyone's sake.
On a side note, was this thread copied to all the forums?

[Doppler]

I just posted a link to the web site and this thread in our reef club forum.I will bring up this project at the meeting on the 26th

Nick

[crpeck]

Don't quit Eric. It takes time to build this and we haven't even taken the project outside of RC yet.

I think it would be good to post again in the General and Responsible Reefkeeping Forums with a fresh start ... just your initial post and information. This thread has gotten long and most people aren't going to wade through the whole thing. Maybe a reference to this one in case they want to.

So you have 4 healthy and one sick, right? So you need 1 - 4 more healthy and how many more sick to get started?

It would help if RC could post an addendum on the Reefkeeping Mag article giving the info how to donate. The way it reads now is with you still saying you are in the process of setting up the fund and no information is given for how to donate.

Those of you who have already supported this, please try to help us spread the word!

Yes ... You told me Eric .... but I don't give up easily. We're still getting started as far as I'm concerned.

Remind me what you need for corals and I'll start contacting online vendors.

[Doppler]

I'm going to print out the download off the website and hit some local fish stores up here in NY this weekend.I really want this project to work

[crpeck]

******** ALRIGHT! ********* THAT'S THE SPIRIT! ********* THANKS!

.......................... Steve Bowman ........................

.................................. $10 ..................................

......................... Thanks, Steve! ..........................

[saltshop]

Hehe..as much time as I spend on these forums you would think I would be aware of this project before now. :eek1: I guess it was a sticky and there are so many I just glossed right over it at the top. Donation is on its way to this worthy cause...

[crpeck]

**************** THANKS, JUSTIN! ****************

........................Justin Baldwin at diyreef.com ..........................

........................................... $80 .............................................

Puts us over $1,000!!!! Thanks SO much!

[ReefDiver]

Eric:

I'm with Cathy! Don't give up! We have too much to gain with the hopeful completion of this project. I am still lighting a fire under Danny & Walt and hopefully will be getting some corals in the near future.

Like the others noted above, I would also be willing to put up whatever monies it takes to keep the project afloat. I also know that without the donated corals, this project will fail. But just take heart in knowing that many of us are with you and will keep working on obtaining the sick corals that you need for this study.

Hang in there and we will do the same, promise!! :)

[JPSwanHome]

Eric,

I was a few days too late seeing the post of your new elegance project. I bought one and within a month it went from Elegant to obsolete. It was a shame to see this happen, I would have never bought it had I know the issues. I had seen in a catalogue that these were “easy” corals to keep. Hardly. I could not get mine to eat from day one. Once it started to recess. It only took two more days and it was gone. My ammonia levels shot up even though I had 0 nitrate, 0 nitrite, ph 8.2 and 5% water changes every week. Best wishes on the project.

JS

[Chrismo]

I think you should put the paypal link, and or the web link on the first post in this thread, it's hard to find.

I issue a challange to the financially challenged out there!(like me). Donate your lunch money! :)

[crpeck]

******************* THANK YOU! *********** THANK YOU! ****************

.................To Chris Morris .....................

......... Who even donated his lunch money

[zenya]

:D

Ok,Chris, you got lunch coming to you for a month but you have to come to NJ to collect :p

[crpeck]

Oops! The post went before I was done....

Thanks SO much, Chris. $10 is awesome! That's really all we visualized when we started this project. Not to hit people up for big money, but if everyone gave a little ... well that just really means a lot as far as showing support. A little from a lot of people gets you to the same place as a lot from a few, but it's a better thing because more people are part of making things happen. It's late and I hope that all made sense.

Anyway ... you're right too about the payment info. I think it's too late to edit the first post so I'll post the info again.

First, the easiest way is to visit the website: www.reefobsession.com/ecp There are direct payment links there for PayPal as well as the address to send checks under the "contact" page on the site.

Otherwise .. for regular PayPal, the link is:

https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=CoralResearch%40midsouth.rr.com&no_note=1&tax=0&currency_code=USD

For credit card payments, the link is:

https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=crpeck%40midsouth.rr.com&no_note=1&tax=0&currency_code=USD

For check or money order, mail to:

Elegance Coral Project
c/o Catherine Peck, CPA
6387 Brooks Manor Cove
Memphis, TN 38119

THANKS!
Cathy

[EricHugo]

>>Don't quit Eric. It takes time to build this and we haven't even taken the project outside of RC yet.<<

I'm not quitting. I felt that with out membership that RC could really be a force in th hobby and this sort of thing, like Ron's work and this proposed work, could be a regualr thing...real progress.

>>I think it would be good to post again in the General and Responsible Reefkeeping Forums with a fresh start ... just your initial post and information. This thread has gotten long and most people aren't going to wade through the whole thing. Maybe a reference to this one in case they want to.<<

OK, I'll split the thread.

>>So you have 4 healthy and one sick, right? So you need 1 - 4 more healthy and how many more sick to get started? <<

No, I have two healthy and three sick. I need three more healthy and 47 more sick.

>>It would help if RC could post an addendum on the Reefkeeping Mag article giving the info how to donate. The way it reads now is with you still saying you are in the process of setting up the fund and no information is given for how to donate.<<

Got it. I'll make the change.

>>Remind me what you need for corals and I'll start contacting online vendors.I was a few days too late seeing the post of your new elegance project. I bought one and within a month it went from Elegant to obsolete. It was a shame to see this happen, I would have never bought it had I know the issues. I had seen in a catalogue that these were “easy” corals to keep. Hardly. I could not get mine to eat from day one. Once it started to recess. It only took two more days and it was gone. My ammonia levels shot up even though I had 0 nitrate, 0 nitrite, ph 8.2 and 5% water changes every week. Best wishes on the project.
<<

thanks..

>>I'm with Cathy! Don't give up! We have too much to gain with the hopeful completion of this project. I am still lighting a fire under Danny & Walt and hopefully will be getting some corals in the near future.

Like the others noted above, I would also be willing to put up whatever monies it takes to keep the project afloat. I also know that without the donated corals, this project will fail. But just take heart in knowing that many of us are with you and will keep working on obtaining the sick corals that you need for this study.

Hang in there and we will do the same, promise!! <<

Thanks...I will.

I would really like the original post with all pertinent information to get outside RC...like to rdo, wet web media,etc., if it is not there already.

If I had a dollar for every time I hear an hobbyist talk about how the reef hobby doesn't harm the reefs, and how we care about them, and how they want to conserve them. Well, this is a rare and overcollected coral that is dying en masse by our hand. No other significant source of mortality exists for Catalaphyllia in the wild that is known about. We are its predator.

I often tell people that "Hey, we hobbyists don't help reefs, and although we could, all the bad press we get is largely true because we take millions of corals every year and kill them - whether we mean to, or not." Best wishes aside, our net effect is negative. Things like this - giving back and not just taking - are the sort of concrete contributions that put more than words behind those claims.

Lunch money is great! Two dollars is great. One dollar is great. We don't need one hundred dollar contributions. We need care, compassion, and a desire to do something, and not major sacrifices of anything (except maybe the efforts of a few who have volunteered to do so (and you know who I mean).

I'm not giving up. But, I will not do this half-baked, either. If we don't reach a goal where something significant can be found, I am not going with what we have and providing meaningless results that just contribute to aquarium anecdote. That's a waste of the donated resources and a waste of effort by everyone....perhaps not least of all, my own.

[MiddletonMark]

Eric - is there anything that can be done in association with IMAC [which I know, is a long way off ... but not forever] ... so that people there can have an opportunity to contribute & to learn about this project?

I've played in a couple bands for `tip jar' money ... and realize some sort of collection-spot from there makes it easy for 500 people to give a few bucks each ... makes it easy for them to give, almost hard not to. I'm sad that getting money for a noble cause needs to factor in laziness ... and am not positive on attendance there ... but I'd think that it would be something maybe IMAC can help with [?]

Any ideas? I should be down there, and even printing up a few hundred `info sheets' on the project would be good for awareness. If not some method for people to contribute while there ...

And I completely understand, agree with the desire to `do it right' not just something half-baked.

---
I'd also encourage everyone who is in a reef club - mention this project at your next meeting. I know I plan to ...

[Forestal]

I really only have one local store close enough for me to visit that sells corals. They havent' had any elegance for months. I spoke to the owner, trying to explain what was going on, he seemed uninterested and just replied, i guess that's why we havent got any recently. arrggh

I'm going to talk to some of their workers, who seem to care more for the hobby, see if they can keep their eyes out and spread the word a bit. maybe they can post the print out i made.

Good luck Eric, I've been looking for elegance to buy just for the project, so far no luck.

[ReefDiver]

Hi Dan:

If you really want to, you can order Catalaphyllia from any number of online vendors. See list of vendors at RC.

Anyway, I know what you mean about the LFS. I also frequented one two weeks ago and was speaking with the owner about this. To make a long story short, he said that he knew what the problem was with Elegance corals and that I should have Eric call him to discuss this so that he could let him know how to "cure" this. Well, rather than argue with this moron, I simply finished looking around and left, probably never to return. To make matters worse, he did not believe that the aquarium trade was having any impact on these, or for that matter, other corals collected from the wild.

So, my friend, I'm afraid this hobby needs some serious dissemination of information regarding the effects that we humans are having on the worlds reefs!

As long as a market exist, corals will be over collected, even if it means the extinction of species. That's why we need to develope better captive propagation techniques. Wouldn't it be nice if one day all of the corals that are sought out by the hobbyist were "farmed" rather than collected from the wild?

[Forestal]

That indeed would be a great thing.

[Forestal]

That indeed would be a great thing.

[crpeck]

************ YOU"RE WONDERFUL MR. ANONYMOUS**********

............................... $500 .........................

................ Thank you so VERY, VERY much!

[EricHugo]

Thanks for keeping your eye out for me, forestal...

and thanks for the incredible donation, anonymous!!!!!


And, Mark, thatis a good idea.

[davejnz]

I know what you mean about some of the LFS Reefdiver,i visited
one the other day and when i talked to the owner about the project and donating corals,he responded"Cant Eric get his own corals".Well needless to say,i wont be doing any business there
He also stated that the elegance's that he brings in are healthy
and their isn't any problem.I then told him about the one my friend bought from him and died.He didn't have much to say
after that

[crpeck]

*********** THANK YOU! ******** JB NY ******** THANK YOU! *********

........................................ $50 ...................................

................................. ....Joe Burger ..............................

[crpeck]

I have sent emails to the following online vendors who offer Elegance corals on their websites:

fishsupply.com
exoticfish.com
MarineDepot.com
anchofish.com

Let me know if you see any other Elegance online and I'll email them too.

Thanks!
Cathy

[MiddletonMark]

Will do. Sadly, a number of what I would consider the more conscientous online vendors don't normally offer them :(

---

Eric, keep in your mind a good method and ideas for IMAC `spreading the word'.

I work at a graphic/print shop - so would be able to get/donate any black/white handouts we'd need. [figure single or double sided info/further info/donations sheets and bring them down there. Color would get too much for me to donate on any scale [like over about 100 sheets] ... but black/white I could probably provide as needed.

As it's my first IMAC, not sure if I want to spend ALL my time giving out flyers, taking donations, etc ... but would be more than happy to help as needed - and would be happy to spend some time helping with whatever. Let me know - and email or pm me if you'd want me to help/contact/whatever to make the IMAC folks aware of this and do as needed there.

I'll have this on my mind the next weeks ... maybe some sort of info-PDF for double-sided single page for distribution would be good to have. Usable at IMAC - but yet people could bring these to their reef-clubs, LFS, etc ... letting word out about this project, the website, donation methods ... and the purpose of it all.

Anyway - time to mull and think :D

[crpeck]

Just emailed Petsolutions.com too

So far that's all I can find. There are others that list them ..i.e. Liveaquaria and Premium Aquatics, but both say they're not currently available so I didn't email them.

I'm thinking that if they carry them at all, surely some corals develop the condition while in inventory and that they should just as soon donate them to us as let them die.

Here's hoping ....

[RoGeTa]

Saltwaterfish.com carries them but I don't know if they are in stock...

[crpeck]

Thanks! I've been watching them. They have them listed, but say "not available". Same with liveaquaria/etropicals.

Hopefully I'll get some good response this week. If so, I'll let you all know.

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

Eric,
I just called Fedex to schedule a pick up for my sick elegance to deliver to your house by 10:30am tomorrow Tuesday Feb. 17. I'll have the tracking number for you as soon as the guy gets here. I have never shipped anything alive before, so I hope I followed your shipping instructions properly. They said they couldn't ship anything alive, which doesn't make sense since it was fedex that delivered it to me from liveaquaria. Anyway, I told them I was shipping a dead fish. The shipping was kinda expensive, so I can't make a donation at this time, however, as soon as I can afford to, I will donate to the foundation. I also couldn't get all the hitchikers off the coral, so you will have some pods and a feather duster or 2. I didn't want to damage the coral for the experiment, so I left it alone. It did feed last night and it looks no different now than it did last week. But don't be alarmed as to how it looks when you get it, because it's in a pretty sad state. Please keep me posted on how it's doing and if it survives the shipment.


Amanda

[bluereefs]

Crpeck,how I can donate money?
I live in Croatia(europe continent)and pay pall dont acept payment from my country.I have amex credit card .

[davejnz]

just make sure to package just before pickup and don't forget those heat packs.Make sure they are not in contact with the bag
as they might cook the coral.

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

Well, the package has left. I put 2 heat packs on the bottom of the styrofoam box, then covered the heat packs with a towel, then the styrofoam lid, then sealed the lid with tape, then placed the styrofoam box in a cardboardbox and sealed again. There will be no air getting in there!!! Good luck little coral!

Amanda

[EricHugo]

Sounds great - I'll be looking for it in the morning! Thanks.

Blue Reefs, see the summary thread for credit card donations and thanks!!!

I hope to see the Croatian reefs with you someday soon!

[Buzzard]

Just saw this thread and placed a donation. I have an afflicted elegance that has had shrunken tentacles going on 8 months now. It was the first and last gift my wife gave me for the tank. I’m traveling the remainder of the week but can provide details as directed and send it out early next week if this effort is still ongoing.

I read RC quite regularly but did not see this as I focus on a few specific forums. I’ll post a link in the Boston forum. Is there a way to publicize this throughout RC?

- Craig

[crpeck]

********* THANK YOU! ******** A VENDOR CHALLENGE ******** THANK YOU!

........................ Waters of the World, Inc. .....................

......................................... $100 ..........................................

............................. www.coraldoc.com .................................

***************** THANKS, DAN ******************

[bluereefs]

Blue Reefs, see the summary thread for credit card donations and thanks!!!
I check the thread with the credit card donation but that go via paypal and paypall dont acept payment from Croatia:( .
This is maybe to complicated but if some of the on line vendor like premium or marine depot or any one else with secure card payment follow this thread I can send money to them and then they can proceed money to you.To complicated?
I will check western union afternoon and see how I can send money with W.U.

I hope to see the Croatian reefs with you someday soon!
You are very welcome:)

[bluereefs]

I just check my e mail(after I write the post here) and found your mail Crpeck,we have the same idea:) .Thank you for your efort, if you can do something that will be very much apreciated.

[EricHugo]

H Craig:

I have contacted the owner or RC and am still waiting his actions on this item. I have posted the thread in several forums, but lack the tools to do them all at once like admin does.

Working on it.

Thanks to all of your for your interest, and Buzzard, yes, I am defintiely interested in your coral. Send photos to me first, if you can.

Thanks again.

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

Hey Eric, did you get the coral I sent you yet?

Amanda

[crpeck]

*********** THANK YOU! ******** THANK YOU! ******* THANK YOU! **********

...................................... Jon Bertoni ................................

........................................... $70 .......................................

[crpeck]

*********************** AND ANOTHER BIG THANK YOU! *********************

.................................... Craig Raymond ................................

............................................ $50 .........................................

Thanks guys! We're really cooking! Way to go!

[reefart]

Great project Eric!:rollface:

I hope you will solve this "Elegant dead" mystery !

I wish you luck in your research,

Mirko

PS: I hope that in the future you will find the time to finish OUR project or you completly forgot about it! :confused:

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

UUUGG, I"m going insane, did my coral make it to you? Did I ship it wrong? Did I ruin everything? As you can tell, I'm a worrier.


Amanda

[davejnz]

hank in there,I'm sure Eric's real busy and wil respond soon enough

[EricHugo]

Yes, Amanda, it made it. The bag water was 62 degrees - very cold. In general, the coral bag water was sligtly brown and turbid, but the coral was still alive. It looks bad....although since I didn't see photos of it, I'm not sure how bad it looked before. Was the giant skeletal erosion in the coral when you purchased it? That's a big hole!

Anyway, we'll see what happens, but I have a feeling it will be in formalin very soon.

Thank you for the effort and I hope it will lend some insight to us.

Mirko...hush. I'm tring to forget my negligence and sending you warm thoughts psychically on an almost daily basis. I'm with you in spirit, and we'll get there, I promise. :)

[EricHugo]

Jon adn Craig: Thank you very much!!

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

Sorry for the poor condition of the coral Eric, you saw I had 2 heat packs in there, I don't know what else I could have done. I have no idea as to why the water was brown???? It was fine when I put it in. It looked bad when I sent it, it had white stringy stuff all over it, it was sunken in most of the time and when it wasn't sunken in, it's body was swollen. Yes, that hole in the middle has always been there, I just figured that was how it formed. Well, good luck with the project, sorry I couldn't be of much help. I just hope the elegance I have in my tank now stays happy and healthy.

Amanda

[crpeck]

******** YAY! ******* ANOTHER SUPPORTER! **********THANK YOU!

............................... Mirko Belosevic .........................

...................................... $100 ..................................

............... Thank you SO very, very much! ...............

[crpeck]

Any vendors out there set up to accept American Express? We have a supporter of the project in Croatia, Bluereefs, who would like to donate. PayPal will not take American Express or a Croatian account.

We would really appreciate your help if you could accept his payment and then transfer it to us. I would be happy to reimburse you if there are any fees involved with the transaction.
Please email me at [email protected] if you can help!

Thanks!
Cathy Peck

[saltshop]

I can do the AMEX thing if you would like Cathy. As long as the donation is not too extreme I should have the funds in my Paypal account to cover it and transfer the funds right over since the AMEX funds would go into my business checking and it would be easiest to pay you with Paypal.

[crpeck]

Thanks, Justin!
I'll email Bluereefs and give him your email if that's okay. He can contact you directly then.

Thanks SO much! Every little bit helps and we are right on the brink of crossing the $2,000 mark!

If only 11 people gave just $10 bucks, we'd be there.

Thanks for your help!
Cathy

[crpeck]

*************** Now here is a guy with a GREAT idea!!!!************

Rather than try to make one big payment ... how about a reasonable one every week or so or now and then?

..................................... Nick Colombo ............................

.....................................Donation # 2 ...........................

.............................................. $20 ..................................


*****************THANKS, NICK! ************************

[jobber]

There are only a few importers that import elegant corals. Most of them being exported from Jakarta, Indonesia. One importer may sell to two or three wholesalers so make sure you use many diffrent sources and diffrent time periods through out the months. My guess would have somthing to do with the holding facilities with the exporter or during shipping.

[crpeck]

******************** ANOTHER BIG THANK YOU! *********************

.............................. Mirabel Jaska (bluereefs) .........................

....................................... $100 ...............................................

We've made it over $2,000, more than halfway to Eric's goal for the first phase of the project! What a responsible group of reefers you all are. :D

[EricHugo]

I am aware of that, thanks, and explained that very point in my original description of the research.

Just a quick update, and one that I am a little irritated about.

I had been informed indirectly that Quality Marine and Walt Smith might have expressed an interest in working with this project.

I know Walt quite well, and he has been very helpful in such things in the past. I have not heard from him yet, but am hopeful I will.

I have been to Quality Marine, but really don't know anyone there very well at all. Apparently they are undertking "research" on this problem as well and I was told they might want to collaborate. I have no response at all from them.

I wrote to Mary Middlebrook, who has a whoesale facility, as well and is the owner of one of our sponsors, SeaCrop - the retail division. She is a very staunch supporter of ethical and sustainable marine collections and I know Mary well and we have spent many long hours on the phone talking about issues and working on issues. I thought for sure she would support this effort. No word from her yet, either. Of course, I had requested livestock from her several times over the past year or so which she had promised to inform me when it was in stock and I never heard from her on that either.

One of the volunteers in this project contacted another sponsor of this site. He wasn't interested in supporting the study because "the problem is with Indonesian corals", and so he doesn't buy them and therefore doesn't consider it to be a real issue worth supporting. I would have thought that the large-scale loss of rare corals from the wild, presumably from a disease condition, would be important enough to support, even though he may not be personally affected by it by avoidance of what he considers problem-free sources.

Then, I contacted Jeff and Jeff's Exotic Fish whom I also know. His immediate response was a similar one...the ones from Indonesia are the problem and he doesn't get them. Furthermore, they are sold before they get the condition, and he has one that does fine in a high nutrient system. He suggested, as I have in articles and this thread, that collection locale vs. captive care environments might be an issue. No support, basically. However, he just offered to purchase some from a Jakarta source and cover the cost of corals if I covered shipping. All I can say is thank you, Jeff! You give me some hope.

I am hesitant to contact Sea Dwelling Creatures, though I know them, too, for various reasons, but they have been less than responsive in previous submissions for help on other issues to say the very least. In fact, I will not be the one to contact them.

I don't know anyone at Underwater World, but will send them a request nonetheless.

A local store said to me, "we don't have sick elegance corals because they are sold before they die."

Marine Depot, whom I know and spend thousands of dollars as my supplier of dry goods and occasionally livestock, and who sponsors this website, responded to one of the volunteers of this project " we cherry pick our corals, and so we don't have any sick elegance corals - try these other places (all the ones listed above)."

Other sources that some of you have contacted have said anything from "we don't have sick elegance corals," "our sources are good, so we don't get the sick ones, " and "we don't carry elegance corals anymore."

You know, its funny, because every store I ever go into has elegance corals, and every store I go into also has sick elegance corals. What are the odds of just contacting all these places that just seem to not have any problems, yet an industry wide problem exists? All these places, miraculously free of sick elegance corals, unconcerned, unsupportive, unresponsive, and all too eager to either deny, lie, avoid, and point fingers.

This is the aspect of the hobby I detest and loathe and have fought against for so long. The takers, and the money makers. The reef rapers.

Yes, you'll see many people who own businesses in this hobby scowl at me at conferences. They have made money hand over fist on my books, but still they scowl because they know that I know what they are all about and have no qualms about saying it. I don't suck up to the industry, and as I have said in my articles, I don't endorse many people or places for this very reason. I don't like or trust 99 out of every 100 places that sell livestock. I visit stores that swear up and down they are the "good guys" and then see in person tanks stocked with organisms that indicate otherwise in conditions that also indicate otherwise. I see how money and appearances are the underlying issue, above all else, and regardless of the long-term costs to this hobby.

To those livestockers, I say I don't care if you want to deny you get sick corals. I know you do. I've been there. I've seen them. I know people who have received them from your companies. I don't care if you are so good that you know all the good sources and avoid the bad ones. I don't care what your theories are about why they don't live. And even if the stories you tell are true, you are in a position to help. Bottom line, you guys ARE part of the problem. You ARE the anecdote. You ARE the ones unsupportive and unhelpful of the industry that feeds you. And bottom line, YOU DON'T CARE. This small event is not the reason, but an example of the underlying problems facing this industry. Don't even claim to feel otherwise.

I deeply thank those stores who have supported this effort. It shows real character. As was mentioned by one of those sources, it is a challenge to other sponsors. No, there is no obligation to help or support, and I don't expect it. But, sometimes there's just an underlying message beyond everything, isn't there?

I'll be sure and update this thread if there are any changes.

[bluereefs]

What is more ironicaly,"lps" corals made probably 80% of the complete hard corals import,starting with goniopora who was number one imported coral last year and probably folowed with catalaphillya.In loot of places that corals are still recomended like easy to keep,they make money not acropora or montiporas.
Weird,they are almost always very cheap.If they are really concerned about coral health they will raise the prices up,so if someone wont to "try" that corals I am sure he will give up when he will see 200 or 300$ price tag on that corals.
But the elegance corals are ridicolousy cheap,there is no way that such a big and sensitive coral can be carefully colected,transported and holded for such a small price,and I am sure every coral importers know that for long time.

[AcroSteve]

Bravo Eric! Hang in there for the sake of the corals 1st and all of us 2nd.

It really is a shame they will not help out with donations that would hardly even show up on the bottom line.

I hope we all consider which vendors take which position on this, if and when we ever order from them directly.

So far, Jeff's Exotic Fish is the only major vendor willing to do anything at this point?

[MiddletonMark]

Seems like a few more might be on board, but no official word yet from them [Mary@Seacrop, WaltS./QM]. Seems like a few `for sure' no answers ... and I'm reading a lot of `it's not us, it is someone else' attitude.

I'm happy Eric's painting it like it is. It's good for us to know, as we're the ones who support these places [or don't].

I'm thinking maybe we should give a few weeks, let Eric report back to us ... then maybe consider writing a couple letters and keeping our eyes open. Those who `never carry' these things may not realize that it seems there are at bare minimum a few dozen people `on top of this' and willing to keep an eye out.

And enough letters through the door suggesting they support this project, and that business is withheld may not be a huge statement - but may be hard to ignore.

Also maybe people who see them at their LFS ask what wholesaler they got them from - make clear it's about the elegance, nothing more ... but perhaps enough of these reports could make it evident `who' is really doing it. We've seen them at LFS, the LFS knows where they got them ... and that leaves someone around LAX doing it. There don't seem to be THAT many importers ... so maybe it could be done [?]

[crpeck]

At this point, our vendor supporters include:

New England Reef: www.newenglandreef.com

Waters of the World: www.coraldoc.com

DIYReef: www.diyreef.com

Captive Raised Corals: www.captiveraisedcorals.com

I encourage you all to check out their sites!

[Doppler]

Well,I'm getting the same response from the LFS around here too except for 1.He never stocks them because he knows they won't live.He did say if he see's a sick one he'll ask the wholesaler if he'll donate it.I also wrote to a on-line vendor who states that their purpose in life is to save the reefs,they didn't even send me a reply either way.I guess they're only out to save the reefs if they're making a prophit.I wont be buying any more of their agronite plug frags anymore.Well we're trying up here in NY.I really love the elegance coral and i'll keep doing what i can to help make this project a success
Nick

[MaryHM]

I wrote to Mary Middlebrook, who has a whoesale facility, as well and is the owner of one of our sponsors, SeaCrop - the retail division. She is a very staunch supporter of ethical and sustainable marine collections and I know Mary well and we have spent many long hours on the phone talking about issues and working on issues. I thought for sure she would support this effort. No word from her yet, either. Of course, I had requested livestock from her several times over the past year or so which she had promised to inform me when it was in stock and I never heard from her on that either.

Wow. I'm kind of shocked about stumbling across this. In fact, I think I'm feeling a little offended here. Eric emailed me Monday at 4pm. I saw the email Monday, but didn't have time to read the extremely lengthy attachments. I am extremely busy on Mondays and Tuesdays, as those are our major shipout days for our wholesale customers. Especially this time of year. Wednesday is my day off, and I had time earlier today to read the attachments and respond to Eric. Response time- less than 48 hours. I think it's a little premature to imply that I'm non-compliant. Concerning the livestock you requested Eric, I apologize but it is very difficult to try to keep up with what everyone wants- especially when it's something that I'm not getting in on a regular basis and the request tends to get shuffled under after several weeks of not having the animal. My availability lists are updated at Seacrop regularly, so you can always check and see if what you want is in stock. I also don't think this thread is the appropriate place to discuss it. In addition, I also don't think that individual businesses responses to participating in your study should be posted here. It kind of feels like a "participate or we'll out you as uncaring" witchhunt. In my email to you earlier today I stated that I have problems with elegants and am willing to help any way you need. But geez, if I can't turn data or whatever you want around fast enough are you going to go public with "SeaCrop isn't doing their part"? Makes me a little nervous about joining in- especially this time of year when I'm so busy.

[EricHugo]

Hi Mary:

Thanks for your offer to help. I appreciate your busy schedule, and I'm quite sure you know what mine is like, as well.

I just said I hadn't heard from you yet, and hadn't in a while regarding past conversations. You know I think a lot of you, but to be honest, I wasn't sure if I would. I hoped. I also didn't think I was just "everyone" to you, and it seems unusual that snails would be something that is a rare commodity for a wholesaler.

Nonetheless, I think what I have said above has been quite accurate and you of all people should agree with what I posted. I think we have spent our fair share of time discussing these exact same issues and you have agreed wholeheartedly and been on the same side of the fence with me - so don't take it personally - just reporting the progress of this project. I think when people have contirbuted $2000 they should be aware of the status of my efforts - and obviously support from stores and sources has been less than helpful and yes, I am irritated by it.

Its not a withchunt. It's the truth. If your not part of the solution...well, you know how the saying goes. And, as per usual, it appears that you are part of the solution. I look forward to working with you again.

Also updated:

From our French friends, a bit of a post I just got from Herve Rousseau from the French Reef Aquarium Society www.recifs.org:

"
_
We've read your article about Catalaphyllia jardinei and we would like to know if you would accept that we translate your article in French (not me, be_sure !), this may provide you with a more complete data set compared to working from American sources alone, especially due to potentially more diverse collection locations."

So, looks like we have help so far from France, Croatia, Italy, Singapore, and the US. Indonesia within the week, I am willing to bet.

I am receiving several more sick corals in the next few days, and will have more information on the website soon. As I mentioned in another thread, i will be gone all next week to the Keys on a very hectic schedule, so I may be scarce for a while.
_

[MaryHM]

I also didn't think I was just "everyone" to you, and it seems unusual that snails would be something that is a rare commodity for a wholesaler.

You want astreas? I have them year round without fail. You ask for Trochus and/or Turbos though and that's a different story. Remember, I'm a small wholesaler. I don't have all of the supply sources everyone else does. We just found a new Turbo snail supplier after not having any for almost a full year. We've received 2 shipments of those in the past month. Trochus- I have been having an extremely difficult time importing them due to the new USDA regulations. I am too small too risk my coral shipments being held up by the USDA because of some dumb snails that are under some dumb regulation. I have been out of Trochus for almost a year as well, and actually just received a shipment of them from my net caught Philippine supplier. A whopping 200 of them. That won't even fill one wholesale customer's order. So snails in my case aren't necessarily the easiest critters to come by. All I'm asking is to make sure you know what's going on with someone's business prior to making an assumption that they're just ignoring you. This business is the sole source of income for my family, and I take it very seriously. You know I respect you and consider you as one of the few people in the industry I call "friend". Just be careful how you handle this project and it's relation to privately owned businesses.

Now, back to the topic at hand! :)

[kevinpo]

Hi Eric,
I have just brought in 7 elegance corals and am holding them for the study. They arrived on Tues. 1 is from Walt and three each from Sea Dwelling and Quality. I have them in a 450 gal system with many other LPS and SPS corals. They all arrived in good condition. I will take more pictures of them today. I will ship them to you if needed at the proper time.

HTH.
Kevin Pockell
Aquatic Dreams
Spokane WA

[kevinpo]

One other note. My personal Elegance of 6 years (the one that spawned) showed the same symptoms of the sick ones you posted pictures of and died. It took about one year to die. I moved it to 4 other tanks but the condition never reversed.

Regards,
Kevin

[MaeThunder]

wow! I just finished reading the whole thread. I don't have any elegance corals, but will keep my eyes open and my digital camera with me. I will also mention it at the club meetings and post it on "our" forums here at RC.

Keep up the good work, Eric. Thanks for careing!!!

Cathy, I can't afford much but will paypal right away. Maybe like was suggested a little a week/month.

Mae

[crpeck]

************** THANKS! ********** AWESOME! ************* THANKS! **************

............................ Mae Thunder ...........................

.................................... $10 ..................................

Every even $10 is another show of support! Thank you!

And regarding your other post, please feel free to copy and paste whatever you feel would help to other boards. The more the word gets out, the better. Thanks for your help!

Cathy

[kwyjibo]

Hi Eric,

I just got an Elegance 2 weeks ago from my LFS.
LFS stated that the elegance was with them for several weeks and it seemed healthy in their tank.
Unfortunately, I didnt ask about the Elegance's origins.
It has been eating somewhat in my care, but has recently(36 hours ago) made me a little concerned.
One part of the elegance is deflated, yet the other seems unaffected. Is this the beginning of the end?
I have snapped a pic and highlighted an area on it.
I would appreciate any feedback you can provide.

elegance pic (http://www.speakeasy.net/~sust/elegance_prob_area.jpg)

[kwyjibo]

whoops... just read posting rules
Sorry Eric :)

75G Oceanic RR with Durso Standpipe started May 2003
90lbs Kaelini live rock
100 pounds southdown sand
Lifereef Sump and skimmer
AB spacelight with 10k AB DE bulb

Salinity 1.025
Nitrates 20
Nitrites 0
Ammonia 0
Phosphates n/a
Alk 9dkh
Ca 400 ppm

Maintenance
RO water top off: 1gal/day
Carbon changed every month
Kent Phosphate sponge used 1x/month
Skimmer cup cleaned when nearing half full of sludge

organisms other than elegance:
baby hippo
2 ocellaris
2 pink skunks
lawnmower blenny
purple firefish
watchman goby
pistol shrimp
cleaner shrimp
red and green montipora
pocillopora
trachyphyllia
assorted zooanthids
red sea xenia
hairy shroom

[MaeThunder]

Saw 5 elegance corals at the LFS today. One wasn't fully opened. They were too busy to talk to so will go back tomorrow and take pics and hang around long enough to talk. Unfortunately most were too expensive for me to buy. ($169ea) They sure are beautiful!. Will get all the pertinent information asked for when I talk to them.
Mae

[EricHugo]

KWYjibo, please post this asa separate thread. But yes, it does look like its in trouble.

Quick update...I have recieved a classic sick elegance from Dan that arrived in perfect condition...have photos and will send them to the webiste in a week

Kevin - thanks so much. Please hang on to them until I return fromthe keys this week or fix them if they will not make it according to insutrcutions.

Mae, please keep me posted, and thanks!

We also hve the support of another French reefkeeping group who are in the process of translating this projhect for their site.

Update on sick corals: All to date, with the exception of Dan's, have been fixed as they continued a decline in the system. Both healthy specimens are still doing fine and I suspect theyw il continue to do so. I will acquire another healthy coral and try som transfection experiments.

Also, upon arrival, Dan's corals had a pronounced brownish white adhesive web on its surface which I aspirated and examined microscopically. It appeared to me largely congealed mucus and a host of mcirobes including ciliates and spirochaetes - similar to the consotrium in brown jelly infections. There were also some annelids present. I will look at any bacterial flora later next week and perhaps send in some material for sequencing analysis to see if this material has an unusual bacterial compostion. the microbes present do not appear to be causative, similar to brown jelly, and were present at much reduced numbers by comparison with the necrotic tissue in brown jelly infections.

Four sick corals are completely decalcified and ready to be sent in to the histology lab for processing, and even Jeanne's coral has a lot of tissue to be analyzed, but its poor condition may not be useful by comparison with the others..We'll see.

Mary, I hope our private emails have clarified things, but long and short of it is I handle things the way I handle them, for better or worse. It's how I work, and always has been. I think a lot of you, and it would take a lot for me to say anything bad about you. But, please don't warn me how to post in my forum. Thanks.

Dr. Mac wrote to John Link, to request his name be removed from the thread. Dr. Mac seems notably upset that his name was portrayed in a negative light. John initially denied that request, but later made an edit. I am allowing it for present and I have just sent Dr. Mac responses to emails he sent to me a few days ago and I'll see how he responds. His claim was that the information I mentioned regarding his response to the volunteer was different than if I had contacted him myself. I'm not sure why this would be the case, as I clearly requested support in this thread by members to locate elegance corals...sick or healthy, nor am I sure why someone would respond differently to one person than another...well, I do understand why, but don't think it a very nice thing to do in any case. I think people should be treated equally regardless of their influence in the hobby or their sponsorship.

Part of my response, and something that I hope clarifies my position, if posted below:

>>A long time ago, when I was writing heavily for the printed mags, and Aquarium Frontiers was doing product reviews, I suggested that FAMA, TFH and Aquarium Fish do the same, and I offered to write unbiased product reviews and even do tests and comparisons for them. I commented how every other industry did this....car mags reviewed cars, computer mags reviewed softwater and hardware, cooking magazines reviewed cookware, blah blah blah. I noted how the aquarium magazines, except Aquarium Frontiers, never did that, and there was a great interest by the hobby and it would also be very valuable. Almost in unison, all three editors quickly responded, "OH NO! We could never do that. The aquarium trade is too small and we could never risk upsetting or losing our sponsors."

I said, "What??!! Well that's crazy. Sometimes Car and Driver likes a Ford model and sometimes they hate another Ford model - sometimes one gets high marks and another one doesn't. But, every month, Ford has numerous ads in every car magazine. If anything, it alerts them for free as to consumer needs, likes, dislikes and may even spur them to make a better product. Sure, it might affect sales on that model, but ultimately, there's no denying if something is good or bad, and people have a right to know and be informed. That's how it works everywhere...that's why so many Consumer Reports type groups exist. That's why there are "customer reviews" as well as unbiased tests." The magazines again said, "Thanks, but no way we would ever do something like that. We can't afford to lose the sponsors."

I was stunned. Dumbfounded. Unbiased or comparative tests of products could not be published in the aquarium trade. Hobbyists could not be informed of the pluses or minuses of vendors or products - it was an intentional cloaking in the name of money in a huge industry. Wow.

Every night, people critique others on public television. More than anyone, and less likely to be generally ok to do, people openly criticize the president of the United States. They make judgements on Enron, Michael Jackson, the cigarette industry, etc. Opinions, so long as they are not libelous or slanderous, are not only accepted, but are our right. Facts, even if they portray someone in a negative light, are also legal and are not slanderous or libelous.

Ever watch Late Night with Bill Maher? Very good show. Very popular show. Attracts lots of sponsorship. He even got fired for his remarks on terrorism, but was then rehired because he had done nothing wrong. Ever read the customer reviews of every single book, CD, or product sold on Amazon.com? Many are pretty graphic and usually unjustified. Still, Amazon puts them there so others can be informed as to the product or service they are buying. In fact, one of the biggest complaints people have about this country is the unfair and illegal influence special interest groups have when they contribute to a political party. Because someone contributes money does not allow them to influence the actions or goals of the group. If no contract exists that stipulates, "If I give you money, you do this for me" then it is illegal to try and influence action based on sponsorship or contribution.

I don't know why the aquarium trade feels like they don't apply to all this. But, part of the results of this type of cloak and dagger business is in large part a reason for the problems in the industry and the pressures by conservation and legislative groups who fail to be able to get accurate information about the trade in order to ensure that proper legislation allows or limits its operations.
<<


OK, guys, I'm off to the Keys for a week. Keep up the great work, and I look forward to responding to all of you and seeing what has been accomplished by all of you in my absence.

[Dan@ReefSplendor]

Below are two emails that were not sent via the board.


I utilize Eric's publications for reference on virtually a weekly basis, he has added great value to this hobby. I intentionally did not post my offer over the board because my desire was simply to assist in the research. I have since seen a number of posts that are troublesome.

Given the nominal cost of funding that is anticipated for this project I am actually surprised that the goal hasnt already been reached through contributions by the business sector. The companies or individuals named in this thread have their own reasons for either participating or declining. Please do not take my comments negatively because they are in no way meant as such.

I am very pleased to see the concern expressed by members of the RC community & their pledges for financial support. Please continue to stay involved. I can see you are all excited at the possibility to play a part in a realtime investigative process.

I am very confident that whatever Eric requires can be obtained through contributions from my organization and as well as many other wholesalers, exporters, importers, and retailers. I would be happy to reach out to these sources after communicating with Eric.

Lets keep a positive perspective on things and enjoy the day

--------------------------------------------------------

Hi Dan"

Thank you so much for your offer. I am off to the Keys to do some work for the next week, but will respond in full to your email while I am en route.

Best,

Eric Borneman

--------------------------------------------

Eric



It has been my pleasure to follow your publications and research over the years. Reef Splendor Inc

Is a wholesaler of marine life. I have significantly reduced our importation of Catalaphyllia jardinei

Over the past two years due to it’s poor survival rate in what I like to believe are optimal

Conditions. If a coral cannot demonstrate more than a 99% (not counting DOA) survival rate in our facility then it faces almost certain death in most retail stores and in the hands of even advanced hobbyists. It would be a pleasure to provide you with healthy & impaired specimens which have been maintained in accordance with your specifications.

Please advise how many specimens you will require and your preferred delivery schedule.



We have in excess of 3,000 corals in inventory at all times (at present only 1 Catalaphyllia jardinei which is not exhibiting any symptoms… not maintained in the manner you have prescribed so it is

Not a viable candidate). I import from numerous world areas each week and as you are aware

Jardinei is normally available.



Look forward to hearing from you soon



Regards



Dan A. DiCarlo

President

Reef Splendor Inc

Tel: 845-227-6750

Fax: 845-227-5653

[Dr. Mac]

Eric,
You have misunderstood my position. I asked that my name be deleted because you posted hearsay about me that I felt was negative and as common courtesy I would have appreciated contact from you personally before posting this hearsay comment. This business is my livlihood, how I support my family, and I work hard to earn a good reputation and do not appreciate having negative comments that are hearsay being posted about me--sensitive to it yes, special treatment no--anyone would expect the same treatment whether a sponsor or not. I was contacted by a customer and as PART of a conversation that involved a business transaction I was asked to donate dead or dying Elegance corals. I was very busy at the time and commented that I had seen this thread but not read it through and would do so, before I had a chance someone contacted me that my name was used in a negative way here--being it was not a comment about my business and was personal and posted by you an RC staff member I asked that it be deleted as it was negative, inaccurtate, and hearsay. I do not have any Elegance to donate. You misunderstood, I meant that because we have met and know each other, had you called/emailed me and asked for financial support I would have done so, I support all types of reef clubs and other industry organizations. Your comments about sponsors are appreciated, but do not apply in this case, I have asked for nothing special except common courtesy, something I request as a member of the community and not because I am a sponsor, and that I be contacted and asked my position before it is posted in a public forum and that as second hand hearsay the comment and elaboration about my position on the subject being a veterinarian is irrelevant---the comment was not first hand communication and should not have been posted in my opinion. I appreciate the fact that this is your forum and you have sole rights to post as you wish and I now understand I have no right to question that.

My position is that I will gladly support the study. I was upset with what I felt was a personal and negative comment made about me by an RC staff member based on second-hand hearsay and that private communications have made their way onto a public forum.

[AcroSteve]

It is good to know whe have the support of these vendors also.

Thanks

[crpeck]

Hi Dr. Mac,
Since I am the volunteer Eric is referring to, I feel that I should come forward here.

Yes, you were very polite and we had a good conversation. I was not offended in any way and did not present it to Eric that I was. You were very nice about it, but the message I got from you was that you felt that the problem with Elegance had to do with where they were coming from and the collection. You believed that Elegance from Indonesia were the problem and those from Soloman Islands were fine. Since this pattern had held true for you, you had avoided sick Elegance and the problem had not been an issue for you. You did tell me that you had seen the thread, would check it out and contact Eric if there was anything you could do to help. But, maybe because you were busy at the time, my impression was that you didn't really feel that any research was necessary because the answer was already known.

What I didn't realize when I reported back to Eric, is that your response fit in with what he was getting from a number of volunteers and also direct responses to him. There has been a pattern of ... I've figured it out, it doesn't affect me, so I don't need to worry about it, but good luck with your project. Or, the other similar thread has been ... It's already figured out ... it's Indonesia ... let's just not order from Indonesia so it's not a problem that needs research. If you go back and read Eric's post, he was really going off on that whole pattern of attitude and not any one vendor. He was using examples of things we'd heard to illustrate.

When I reported back to Eric, I hit 2 big hot buttons for him and he was already pushed to the point of frustration by what he'd heard from others. The first hot button is his frustration with people who are willing to draw a conclusion over anecdotal evidence rather than supporting real research to determine scientifically supported answers. (i.e. It's Indonesia ... end of story. Or the other one we've been hearing ... Tanks are too clean now and Elegance needs more nutrients in the water. Both are anecdotal conclusions.) The second hot button is ...... well ... I think it has to do with his commitment and passion for the reefs themselves and his fervent belief that all of us who bring corals into our aquariums to enjoy, and especially those who profit from bringing corals out of the reefs, have a reponsibility to the reefs as a whole and any animal in trouble because of what we do. The Elegance is just one small part of what is really a huge and complex problem with our entire hobby.

So ... back to our conversation. If I misinterpreted what you told me, I am sorry. I did not present it as a "lets rat out another vendor" type of thing. Your response just seemed to fall in with the patterns that were pushing Eric and all of us trying to supprt this project over the edge. I don't believe there was the intention to attack you or your business. The criticism is of the attitude only and I believe criticism of that attitude is absolutely justified. I think bringing up your background as a veterinarian was more to illustrate the point that even those with a scientific background were willing to accept anecdotal evidence rather than demand scientifically supported results. I don't want to go too far trying to interpret Eric, because as we all can see he has strong opinions that he expresses very clearly.

I do believe that this thread should stay on task and be used to report progress and support of the project. Eric, when you read this, I hope I have proven my support enough at this point that I can get away with this; but I think we need to refocus this thread on the positive. I think it is important that vendors who choose to support this project do so because they believe in it, not because they're afraid they will be attacked on RC.

Dr. Mac, if you want to help, we'd appreciate it. Regardless of your stance on the validity of the project, I sure don't want to be responsible in any way of hurting your reputation. The coral I got from you is beautiful, the packing exceptional, and the service and follow through excellent. (There is some critter in the bird's nest that I've been afraid to ask you about because I thought you were probably mad at me. :rolleyes: .... but that's my fault for not following your instructions, not yours that it's there.)

Bottom line (yes, I'm an accountant) for me is this; I believe whole heartedly that we do all have a responsibillity to be concerned about a coral that continues to be harvested with such a low chance of survival, whether or not we own an Elegance or deal in them. I think all of us who are closely involved with this project have interpreted every show of support, even the smallest of donations, to be a statement of support ... not just for the Elegance Coral, but research and responsibility in general as it applies to all corals collected and the reefs themselves. Maybe that's not fair, but that's how I feel about it and why I have thrown myself so strongly into this project. Eric hits things hard and strong, but his passion and commitment towards his research and the reefs is what gives me the confidence to have put myself on the line by taking the financial management responsibility for this project. Going forward, I am more likely to support vendors that I know feel the same responsibility and commitment to the reefs. I hope that will include you.

Cathy

[MaryHM]

I think it is important that vendors who choose to support this project do so because they believe in it, not because they're afraid they will be attacked on RC.

Precisely! When I conducted the hand netting fundraiser here on RC several months ago, we gave positive reenforcement to those businesses that supported the fundraiser and ignored the others. Why? Because different people/businesses are entitled to their reasons for not participating, no matter how passionately I feel about getting netting material to the Philippines and Indonesia. And if I was rude to them for not participating, how could I ever expect to get their support on future projects? Thinking about the future is very important in this industry for a variety of reasons. Alienating your potential support base for future projects is just a bad idea.

[Dr. Mac]

Cathy,
Thanks for your clarification. I am not mad at you in any way. I was just surprised when someone alerted me to my name being used in this thread when I had not even been in contact with Eric directly and I felt his comment about me was personal and negative. My private communication with Eric was that I was upset about posting his perception of my thoughts on the issue when I he had not been in contact with me personally. This has nothing to do with my desire to sponsor this or any reef related project, whether I am a sponsor of this BB or not, or whether I feel the project is worthy or not. This and many other projects could be quite worthy to the reef community in general.

I am always sponsoring all kinds of projects, reef clubs, etc. and as evidence by my years in the hobby (since 1968) am very passionate also about these animals. It must also be appreciated by everyone that we are all busy folks. I am sure you are, Eric is, and so are the vendors that sponsor this BB, sometimes it takes a while to respond. I do not ask for special treatment as a sponsor, just to be treated fairly.

I appreciate your response, but this thread is not about me and I have no desire for it to become so. I have publically stated I am willing to support the project. I am currently supporting coral research being done at a local university and am currently investing heavily with money and time in the expansion of my business and my capability to do more aquaculture and research of corals. As with many sponsors of this BB, we are intimately involved in this hobby/business--mostly because we are passionate about it, hobbyists in it, and yes also earn our livlihood from it. We eat, drink, and sleep this hobby and our dedication is evident by our commitment to not only the hobby but also our customers.

[MiddletonMark]

I'm in agreement Mary ... but I think a number of hobbyists here have given money to support this project ... and I think Eric reflects part of our same frustration with the `shirking the blame' that is so common to see.

Yup, you're supporting your family he business and I can understand - but I and others here are supporting our families, our tanks ... and could scrape up cash to send. Also support our local reef clubs, etc.

I would be much more comfortable if money amounts given by businesses were not reported here ... as comparing what you can afford to what a large importer could write off just seems wrong as it gives the wrong impression. Dollars do `talk' ... but support in ANY fashion talks far louder. I'm sure you agree after the netting work you've done ... that every dollar counts.

Whether someone thinks they know the problem/answer, and can avoid it ... I am also frustrated that I can personally support this while businesses can say `I'm not a part of it' and neither giving funding or samples. Maybe you don't touch them, but you are involved in the import-end of business ...

If it wasn't for your efforts in the net campaign, and projects like this one ... I'd be mighty close to having a fishless reef ... as I can easily supply myself from reef clubs and domestic coral prop facilities with everything I'd want in my tank. Snails and other cleanup crew would be tough - but that's about all I really `need'. And like a LFS in my area [that carries only few fish, due to difficulty tracing capture/etc methods involved] - cannot adequately know the capture methods of anything - and it all leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

I hate to see the goniopora, dendronepthea, elegance ... and other corals I see in the LFS - and it's difficult to not support them, not support those importers - when to be honest much of this is purposefully kept out of sight of hobbyists. I don't want to accuse anyone - and know that some people are trying hard to implement changes to current practices; yet it's hard to see - hard to know - and I have great sympathy with Eric's stand here.

----
Anyway, maybe I should re-emphasize that maybe we should keep $$ amounts given by businesses unknown - so as to not invite comparisons to what different places can afford equalling support or half-hearted support.
Not sure how best to deal with this ... but I'd think that even if every business matched [or beat] the $50 contribution I could scrape together it would certainly set a good precedent. For very few of us money grows on trees, I'm well aware. [paying for my own wedding this summer as I speak ... and with this hobby, that means far more belt-tightening than I'm used to].

Anyway - my 2 cents to this discussion. Just to make sure all are aware that when all is said and done - I'm going to pay close attention to who is on the `contribution list' and gauge my future purchases and attitude accordingly. Compared to the price of being a sponsor on RC or other boards ... even a small contribution here may `do something' other than advertise. Speaks loud to the few [many?] like myself here.

[traveller7]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
......... Just to make sure all are aware that when all is said and done - I'm going to pay close attention to who is on the `contribution list' and gauge my future purchases and attitude accordingly...............I would imagine many of us will be monitoring the support.

It will be fine with me if an organization does not contribute in some manner, unless they are selling Elegance. If they are not involved and they sell Elegance, I can not imagine any situation that would cause me to contribute to their bottom line, ever.

[Dr. Mac]

Mark, et al,
Vendors and sponsors are asked all the time to donate to many reef related causes. I am asked almost daily to contribute to reef clubs, new BBs, etc. etc. We all have limited resources and to say a vendor or sponsor is not worthy of doing business with just because they do not or can not support a specific project is unfair in my opinion, nor is it correct that any vendor is any better just because they do donate or participate. I do not want to appear self serving here, but the amount a vendor or sponsor donates or if they do not donate does not reflect their passion or care for the animals and the hobby. As a hobbyist you are not in a position to be asked daily to contribute to all sorts of reef related things, vendors and sponsors are and there is only so much to go around. My personal opinion is that I do not fault any company or individual for not donating or participating in this one particular study for whatever reason. The process of proposing, funding, conducting research for this hobby should be handled differently.

My proposal
Select a commitee of 3-5 folks to weed through legitimate reefkeeping related projects and deem certain ones appropriate to fund and then take funds from a pool of monies set up by vendors, sponsors, hobbyists--whom ever. This is what universitites and other organizations do all the time---review proposals and then decide which will be sponsored and funded and then there is accoutability and reports etc. I will hereby publically state that I will be first in line with a $2000 donation to start such a fund if we can find a small group of qualified impartial folks willing to be on the review board (best to have a mix of research types, hobbyists, vendors, etc.) and then maybe have a forum on this BB to weed through, and post progress of reefkeeping related projects. JohnL, how about starting such a forum and then how about including the comments of the whole community on topics of interest worthy of study, voting on projects to fund, follow up reports on progress, awards for best suggestions and projects completed, etc. Let's do it for the animals we all care so passionately about! This would be research conducted by qualified institutions directly related to the hobby. This can be done, in my pervious career I did just this in the food safety field. You can easily seek and find qualified researchers and contract with them to conduct trials as long as the proposal is well written and then followed up.

This in no way comments on the worthiness of the project at hand now--it is obviously worthy of study, in fact I will donate $500 toward this current project--just tell me where to send the check, but let's do something more permanant and involve the community here on RC in a formal and organized manner.

[Dan@ReefSplendor]

Now perhaps you can see why my first reponse was directly to Eric vs posted on RC.

I do not believe that commercial establishments should be rewarded or punished based upon their participation in a specific effort. Frankly my involvement was two fold, first to support someone that is attempting to assist all of us and secondly I have a profit motive !! Yes those ugly $$. There is a great deal at stake for the hobby/industry as a whole, Elegence, in recent years is a great example of why collection could/should be stopped.

If an establishment shows no regard for the environment and is solely motivated by profit then support by those who care should be withdrawn and redirected to firms with a moral directive.

Although I do not know Dr Mac personally, I can tell you that from what I have heard he does care about the environment, has also pledged assistance and yet the thread continues. (By the way the problem is not soley involving Indonesian source of supply, this problem was prevalent over 10 years ago, it cycled and disappeared until a few years ago.... no I dont know the cause or the solution)

Some jerk once wrote (..that would be me)
"We take from nature, for our own enjoyment, things that enrich our lives, when viewed as a mechanism to share our passion, we justify our action towards a greater good. When others are exposed to the wonders of the ocean they cannot resist its beauty and become firm supporters of it's protection.

Please focus on the real issue which is engendering support, in a positive manner, to further research that will benefit us all.

peace

[crpeck]

It has been my hope from the beginning that this could grow into a full fledged research organization that could continue past even this project. I've already discussed this possibility with Eric. So far we've been in "one step at a time mode" and were waiting to see what kind of support was out there for this project before a decision was made as to where to go next.

What is involved is setting up a Foundation corporation in the state where the organization is to be based and then filing for 501(c)(3) status for the Foundation. Having a Foundation would require appointing a Board of volunteers and procedures for identifying projects chosen for support. If this were accomplished at any time in 2004, tax deductibility of the contributions made so far would be retroactive.

Someone would have to take primary responsibility for this and if RC wanted to sponsor a nonprofit research subsidiary it might be a good way to make it happen. I think Eric would be glad to be relieved of the administrative burden of taking that primary responsibility, but he would have to answer that question.

For now, this all got started with Eric volunteering his time and energy to perform the research for the project at hand and we need his approval and support with how it should continue. I am hugely in favor of the concept because I see it as a way to accomplish ongoing research beyond just this project.
Donations to this project now, can be sent to:

Elegance Coral Project
c/o Catherine Peck, CPA
6387 Brooks Manor Cove
Memphis, TN 38119

or PayPal: cash = [email protected]
credit card = [email protected]

Well we will certainly have a lot for Eric to read and respond to when he gets back from The Keys.

I was concerned at the turn this thread was taking re vendors, but I can see now that we've generated some positive and productive discussion.

Cathy

[MiddletonMark]

Dr Mac, others ... have no doubts - I'm not judging solely based on this project - yet don't want folks to think it's something I take lightly either.

But reef clubs, BB, and the like while worthy groups of support ... I tend to see as advertising in one fashion or another. I do not want contributors to this list to be seen as `advertisers' - that was not my intent. But I am aware that all the business-sponsors of our Reef Clubs, BB, etc are all given visibility as `thanks' - where when I contribute to my reef clubs, or BB's ... they don't have my name announced, thanked, or put personal messages at the top of every page.

Don't forget, most Reef Clubs require dues for members, almost every BB I'm on asks for dontations from it's members - I do have sympathy for your point, but it's not like you get no `word out' by contribution.

Ok, I'll drop it - I'm too wordy and rambled too much already ;)

But your points are well made, and something to think about. I appreciate your input in this discussion - and think that this research funding your are discussing is a GREAT way to move for the future. Perhaps we can put other appropriate places on this list [maybe something to do with capture, surveys on effects of collection, etc]. It's a great thing IMO - we should continue to move this hobby forward [start to?] ... as it's future rests on all of us, whether importer, business, hobbyist.

---

I tell you what, the fact that you are here, right now, participating in this discussion shows a LOT to me ... that whether you give corals/donation - you're not `the average'. :D

I don't see you as part of the problem - and that's my #1 consideration. Of course I'd like to see things moving forward through both your and my support.

Personally, you're ALL obviously involved in this hobby beyond the sake of money - and I know of each of your businesses, have [and will] consider purchasing stuff from you - and when I finally get married and get money for `fun reef stuff' again ... you'll be on the list.

Thanks for being here, doing what you already do - and your ideas. It's rare when someone like me gets to interact with someone like you - and I appreciate these chances to hash out what's in my mind, and yours

[traveller7]

Dr. Mac,

This is a likely forum to start such a discussion regarding a broader scope:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=225

We'd need to get some additional support from a moderator and some of the onboard experts since the topics will likely ignite tremendous passions ;) I'll ping those in a position to look into it directly.

Thanks for your past, present, and knowing you personally from WAMAS, your future support as well.

Cheers.

btw: Hobbyists may not be able to easily ascertain a businesses motives, but practices such as describing critters as "easily maintained" when only a tiny percentage survive could be a large clue.

[crpeck]

Originally posted by traveller7
btw: Hobbyists may not be able to easily ascertain a businesses motives, but practices such as describing critters as "easily maintained" when only a tiny percentage survive could be a large clue.

Great point! That has just blown me away as I've been searching out these corals for the project. I've wondered if they really didn't know any better or just didn't care. I haven't emailed all of the vendors on my list with Elegance for sale yet, but it will be interesting to see what, if any, response I get from some of them.

[Vert20]

Originally posted by crpeck
Great point! That has just blown me away as I've been searching out these corals for the project. I've wondered if they really didn't know any better or just didn't care. I haven't emailed all of the vendors on my list with Elegance for sale yet, but it will be interesting to see what, if any, response I get from some of them.


This is part of the issue(s) this project hopes to correct. Actually Elegance Corals WERE some of the easiest to keep when I got into this hobby back in the early 90's. They have seen a recent (last few years) decline in health in closed systems. I personally would like to think that it is something so simple that is being overlooked. Maybe we are getting far to good at maintaining super high quality water and environments, that they are not able to provide in captive environments.

Bickering aside, these animals are far to beautiful and magnificent to allow petty differences to get in the way of saving them.

JM2Cents

Thanx everyone!

[davejnz]

Eric,the sick elegance is still with Alex at ama.aquar.When you get back from the keys,it might be a good time to consider having it shipped to you.I believe Alex said he would donate it.perhaps,
i'll pay for the shipping to split the losses.On a side note,the two elegances that i bought(1 was shipped to you and is presumably still healthy?)the one that remains is doing fantastic and also appears very healthy.I will try to take some high quality images
so Vert 20 can post them on the website.It seems they are the near-shore silty bottom type and the one that appears sick at LFS is the purple-tipped(presumably deeper-water?)

BTW,i wanted to personally thank you for taking on this project.I
know this is demanding alot of time and energy.
I think we all need to remember Eric volunteered to do this to
the benefit of us all(hobbyists,vendors,LFS,importers,and especially to the survival of this wonderful coral)

[ReefDiver]

HI All:

To be sure, we all have something to gain by this research. As a hobbyist, whether I like it or not, I am part of the problem concerning the effects that we humans are having on the world's reefs. Like it or not, all of the species that are harvested from the reefs are losing out. I'm sure that we would all agree on this. However, the most affected species are the ones that take the longest to mature and grow. This is obviously true for the majority of coral species. Therefore, the best way to go IMO is to do more in the way of captive propagation and breeding.

Think about it? Even if this Elegance Project is successful and Eric finds a solution, Catalaphyllia will still have to be collected from the wild. Although, survival rates will hopefully be much higher, this and other species will still be under pressure of overcollection, etc...

I agree with Mark that when one is making a living selling fish, corals, etc.. it becomes very difficult to be impartial. However, I do believe that the majority of vendors truly care about these organisms and would support any positive research such as this project.

Knowing Eric as I do, I can tell you that he is not doing this for any personal gain or some ego trip. Since we are all part of the problem, we should all strive to be part of the solution.

My hat's off to Cathy and the others who are VOLUNTEERING their precious time to this project. I also pledge to help in any way that I can.

Now, on to bigger and better things in the future! Hopefully, all of our concerted efforts will pay off and maybe, just maybe, we can make a difference to these marvelous wonders of nature that we all love so much!!

[crpeck]

When you're thanking volunteers, don't forget Vert20 (Stephen) who has donated the webspace, designed and maintained it.

If you haven't checked it out lately, it's

Elegance Coral Project (http://www.reefobsession.com/ecp)

[ReefDiver]

OOPS! Sorry Cathy, I surely didn't mean to leave anyone out especially Stephen!

I did check out the site and it's terrific! Couldn't have done it better myself. Actually, couldn't have done it at all since my computer skills are basically non-existent. :)

[MiddletonMark]

Yep, I volunteered to help ... and when I first checked out the site he made - I realized I was one too many cooks and would likely just spoil the broth :D
You both have done great jobs ... others as well, but the two of you have really done a great job creating the `foundation' for this project.

[crpeck]

Yes, you did offer to help and then Stephen was all over it FAST and just got it done. Thanks for the offer, anyway. ;)

The one really taking the load on this, of course, is Eric. And not just the obvious ... obtaining and working with coral samples, but also all of the contact, emails and fielding questions that only he can answer.

Well enough back patting going on around here. Time to just get back to work and keep this thing rolling.

[MaeThunder]

"It has been my hope from the beginning that this could grow into a full fledged research organization that could continue past even this project."

Cathy, I think this is a great Idea and I agree with you! I think Eric did mention in the beginning about continuing research and going to gonapora(sp?) next. I am willing to help.

Perhaps industry/business support should be recognized by a mention of name and not amount. That way we could recognize them but not the size of the donation. (even giving Eric the elegance corals is a donation as they had to purchase them in the first place)

One thing I know, "fighting" (argueing, bickering) is a turn off and if we want support, we need to stop doing it on the thread. Please don't get me wrong I understand your frustration! After going back to a place where I have spent several thousands of dollars and they were too busy to talk to me, I got upset. I did get the pictures. Just no info about them :(

Can we get some letterhead, or something to hand out when businesses (LFS) are to busy to have someone "bend their ear". Being a lowly hobiest I don't usually get to talk to owners or VIPs. But handing them written material might get to someone important. If nothing else I will get the information Eric posted at the begining of this thread printed up. (40 ppl at 1 club meeting 40 at another ... all add up) I'm hoping for more support.

Mae

[Vert20]

Mae

Here is a link to the Word Document that Eric has put together when the project was beginning. It is on the ECP Website if you need it agian later...

Hope this Helps

Elegance Coral Project - Word Document (http://www.reefobsession.com/ecp/files/The%20Elegance%20Coral%20Project.doc)

[Vert20]

Thanks for the Kind words everyone...it really is no bother ...

Mark, you are more than welcome to add your spoon to the broth at any time. In fact I may actually need the help. :-) I am in the process of getting a new laptop setup and it has put me behind on several projects. I will be uploading some new images to the site (for those that have sent them, I am not ignoring you)

Thanx again!

[kevinpo]

Specimen update:
Today marks one week since I purchased the 7 corals. They all appear to be eating and doing well. One of them seemed to be retracting but looked quite good today. Another that looked good the past few days looked slightly retracted today. I believe they are exhibiting normal behavior so far. Time will tell. I am collecting pictures every few days. I'm not sure what to do with them (the pictures) but should anyone be collecting them let me know.

Regards,
Kevin
Aquatic Dreams LFS
Spokane WA.

[MaeThunder]

Kevin, you asked the same question I was going to ask. I know Eric wants the pictures, but Steve (Vert) do I send them to you also?
Eric, do you want me to go back over the course of ? to take pics at the LFS to see how they are progressing? One definately appears to be on it's last legs :( I will try to talk to someone "in charge" there to see If maybe they will give me the one to send to you, or send it directly. With a copy of the word document in hand, maybe they will be more willing to talk to me. Maybe it was just a weekend that was too busy. Anyway, will try again.

As many times as I've visited the site I didn't see the word doc, Thanks Steve.(Vert)

Mae

[Vert20]

Yes please send me the photos with as much detail as you can. A good way to catalog them is to make notes referencing the image name. That way I can put it together without bugging you about it.

The images I have received so far are being put with text and will wait for Eric to return before posting so that as few mistakes are made as possible. I am no scientist, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night so I feel qualified...:D

Thanx- Send photos and text to [email protected]

[crpeck]

********** THANK YOU! ************* THANK YOU! ************* THANK YOU! **********

....................................... Tom Haines .....................................

............................................. $20 .........................................

Thanks for your support!

[crpeck]

*********** A BIG THANK YOU TO THE LAND DOWN UNDER! ************

...................... Thank you, Sandra Hinloopen! .......................

...............................Miareefer .....................................

....................................... $50 ...............................................


A messeage from Miareefer: "C'mon Aussies .. Chip in."

[miareefer]

Hi ime proud to help out a little on a excellent cause thankfully for us here in oz we are not affected with unexplainable catalphylia losses. I personally have 6 in my tanks and i rate them as indestructible . I asked Eric a few weeks ago if he could have a look at a few photos of my largest cat cause it was expeirencing some strange stoney growths under some polyps and his opinion was it was throwing a few daughter colonys .Its at the point of almost dropping them at the moment . So anyway good luck with the study and ime looking forward to a possible conclusion.
Miareefer