Rio Just Gave Me A Jolt!

[*j-cat*]

Well,

Ive read about getting shocked, but come on. I am currently curing my live rock in my garage in a 50 gallon roughneck. I am using all of my extra pumps (power sweep, rio 2100 x2, and a Rio 3100). I noticed a couple of days ago that the coralline was bleaching out and all of the beautiful rock was turning white. I decided to do a large water change due to high alk. after dropping the pumps in to the newly added water I hooked all of the pumps to an old Red Sea Wavemaker Pro I had in a box for better circulation. Well I was adjusting the rocks to hold down one of the 2100's when ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ shazam the wavemaker kicked the RIO 3100 on and I got zapped. Id hate to say it but my arm kind of hurts now. Is that normal for pumps to go bad all of the sudden. Trash day is Wednesday and I am thinking of throwing all of the Rio's away now - just for safety sake. No matter if they are just being used for curing rock. I did not like that feeling AT ALL! Anyone ever been jolted by a defective pump. I am assuming that is what was bleaching all of the coralline - is that correct?

[K9]

Sorry to hear J. I hope everything is allright with you. Rios are bad news, man. Almost anyone on here will tell you that. Unfortunately, you found that out first hand. Just be glad you're still alive. Good luck.

-K9

[jdieck]

You are a lucky guy. If the arm pain does not go away by the morning have a doctor take look just in case. Something to keep in mind for your installation is the use of GFCIs for all your electrical equipment.

[*j-cat*]

You are a lucky guy. If the arm pain does not go away by the morning have a doctor take look just in case. Something to keep in mind for your installation is the use of GFCIs for all your electrical equipment.


Thats what is weird. Both of the outlets that I am running the equipment on are GFCI. They are both individually wired to a 15 amp fuse in the box. Could the water have cased a problem with the GFCI kicking? Or maybe I didnt get enough amps running through me? I have no idea - I am no electrician. The Rio smelled aweful when I pulled it out though. Almost like burned hair or something.

[Flipturn88]

Rio = crap

Seriously. I've had bad experiences with them too, and they're not worth a single cent IMO. Hope your arm feels better.

[aqua_obs]

Welcome to owning a true RIO pump. They are famous...

[Shablin]

I got jolted by a rio 2100 years ago; Ive had a replacement rio since which has worked fine - I just replaced the impeller. I use a grounding probe now (for what its worth.....)

[acropora]

Originally posted by *j-cat*
You are a lucky guy. If the arm pain does not go away by the morning have a doctor take look just in case. Something to keep in mind for your installation is the use of GFCIs for all your electrical equipment.


Thats what is weird. Both of the outlets that I am running the equipment on are GFCI. They are both individually wired to a 15 amp fuse in the box. Could the water have cased a problem with the GFCI kicking? Or maybe I didnt get enough amps running through me? I have no idea - I am no electrician. The Rio smelled aweful when I pulled it out though. Almost like burned hair or something.
If in fact both outlets are GFIC,then either they are not wired properly or they are defective.A faulty pump would have kicked off the power immediately. Have your wiring checked out.

[*j-cat*]

If in fact both outlets are GFIC,then either they are not wired properly or they are defective.A faulty pump would have kicked off the power immediately. Have your wiring checked out.

Well I just went outside and checked the outlets to be sure. I noticed that the ground section of the 3 prong plug overlaps they GFCI "trip" button. I noticed that all of the 3 prong plugs overlap the top GFCI button. Now my question is whether or not that button has to come out all the way. I can not see how it can trip with it being covered by the ground on the plug. Thanks for all of the concern everyone who has responded. I think the Rio's will go in the trash tomorrow.

[jdieck]

Does the GFCIs trip when you push the test button, if not replace them.

[jdieck]

I think they will trip anyhow by try testing them without anything plugged to be sure they work and then plug something and try to test them again and see if they trip again.

[sberman]

read the tag on the rio cord not to be used on wavemakers they are not meant for that it demags them and ruins them

[eric1194]

Had a rio and a thriving reef tank once...
Then one morning I awoke to this terrible smell throughout the house. Smelled like oil.
Went to my tank the whole thing was filled with gray cloudy water. The snails were falling of the sides as I watched.
Found that my rio had fried itself and my tank
That was the end of my fully stocked 265 and rio products

[jdieck]

sberman, I can understand that switching the pump constantly can burn it up but this shall not be cause for shorting up or cracking up the epoxi seal, if it does then because of the switching device then its a uper bad unsafe design as they may fail in that mode under normal long term use.

[Frick-n-Frags]

If you didn't create a path to ground, the GFI won't kick out.

Think about what GFI stands for "Ground fault" "interruptor"

not "in tank zap eliminator" those are ITZE's :D

[sberman]

even if the pump freezes up it cannot melt the epoxy i have had pumps lock up all night long and not melt the epoxy like i have said in a couple of other threads send the pump into rio expain what happened and let them learn from it

i am just tired of seeing so many people bash so many vendors why dont we try and get them to improve there products there is enough of us

[acropora]

Originally posted by jdieck
Does the GFCIs trip when you push the test button, if not replace them.

Worth repeating.:)

[*j-cat*]

Does the GFCIs trip when you push the test button, if not replace them.

The GFCI does trip when I hit the test button and I guess the button does not need to come "all the way out" to trip the circuit". I thought that the overlapping ground portion of the plug would stop the GFCI from functioning properly. They again when I look at most plugs they all have this housing extension on them.
<a href=http://home.comcast.net/~mike-smith/DCP_1276.JPG>
Here is a picture of what I am talking about.</a> The GFCI does work when I hit the test button - what would have made it not trip?

[harry1215]

that pic is what gfci's normally look, nothing strange there.

[jdieck]

Bash to whom bash deserve and shall the consumer not to be blamed.. I agree with that the consumer has to support the manufacturer improve their product but is the manufacturer the one who has to take the initiative.
I think there has been enough reports (and bashing) of rio pumps failures for them to start doing something about it and as far as I know they have not done anything at least noticeable to me to improve the design or their quality control.
Shall the consumer be their R&D? probably for beta testing and for beedback on features the consumer might be interested in including in the design but all this has to be initiated by the manufacturer led efforts and their marketing or sales department not by the consumer.
At the end, the manufacturer does it for profit and this profit comes from the consumer pockets so it is the consumer right to be picky and comunicate to other consumers when there are alternative suppliers that do a better job.

As far as I know this site is one of the world largest if not the largest consumer forum of salt aquarium equipment users and buyers and one of the best places to get consumer feed back.
In the last year alone there has been 2,875 threads that mention Rio. But where is Rio (or Taam)? Are they aware of this opportunity? If they know and are not here to recieve feedback it is on them. If they do not know, well it's their loss too.

[acropora]

Originally posted by *j-cat*
Does the GFCIs trip when you push the test button, if not replace them.

The GFCI does trip when I hit the test button and I guess the button does not need to come "all the way out" to trip the circuit". I thought that the overlapping ground portion of the plug would stop the GFCI from functioning properly. They again when I look at most plugs they all have this housing extension on them.
<a href=http://home.comcast.net/~mike-smith/DCP_1276.JPG>
Here is a picture of what I am talking about.</a> The GFCI does work when I hit the test button - what would have made it not trip?
That is a concern. I believe that the present GFIC you have is not working properly. I also would try a different brand. I also had one similar to the one you have and I always felt more comfortable with the Leviton standard.IMO I also like to use a power strip plugged into a GFIC,this way you can plug in the questionable item first,then flip the on/off button on the power strip. This way you will not be in direct contact when and if the item is faulty.

[jdieck]

If you were not touching the powerhead but only the water or the rocks the GFCI should have tripped so although it trips with the test button it may be tripping at higher current than it should.

If you were touching the 3100 and the GFCI is functioning at the current level it should then the leak ahve had to be from both the neutral and the hot wires for you to get shocked without triping the FCI.

I will agree with Acropora and IMO you shall replace the GFCI anyhow and Leviton has a background of reliable products.

[discocarp]

I had a RIO shock me on a GFCI. The GFCI was electrician installed. It didn't trip. I had the GFCI tested afterwards. No problems. I can't explain it, but it gives me an uneasy feeling.

Peter

[the rock...beauty]

I just had a Rio go out on me. It was my return pump. The power surged, and the pump did not go back on. I smelt a burning smell. When I finally pinpointed it, it was the good old Rio. It was smoking. Gosh, that is the last time I use one of those.

[Frick-n-Frags]

I suppose y'all were sleeping in "Electric Fields" class.

Let me repeat my earlier post: If you don't complete a circuit to ground the GFI WILL DO NOTHING!!!

Waste all your money and frustration by replacing GFI's until you're broke and blue in the face and you will still get zapped.

A ground probe is the only for-sure way to get the GFI to kill a leak, because then a leak will flow to ground and will trip the GFI.

Howabout an analogy: an electric eel can zap things in the water because it sets up an electric field. Your leaking RIO is a similar phenomena.

[tsiler]

Welcome brother J-Cat to the ReefCentral chapter of the "Sixty-Cycle Shuffle Courtesy of RIO" club. I think we're all members now. Hmm... two prongs on a Rio cord. GFI circuits installed, but no clicky when I zappy?

As Yoda would say, "Magical, the third prong would be."

8)

Tom Siler
Columbus, OH

[pszemol]

Originally posted by *j-cat*
Does the GFCIs trip when you push the test button, if not replace them.

The GFCI does trip when I hit the test button and I guess the button does not need to come "all the way out" to trip the circuit". I thought that the overlapping ground portion of the plug would stop the GFCI from functioning properly. They again when I look at most plugs they all have this housing extension on them.
<a href=http://home.comcast.net/~mike-smith/DCP_1276.JPG>
Here is a picture of what I am talking about.</a> The GFCI does work when I hit the test button - what would have made it not trip? All GFCI have a threshold current for tripping. There are more sensitive ones, tripping at the current difference about 4-7mA and there are less sensitive, tripping when the difference between currents flowing out and flowing in is about 30mA.

Neither one will prevent the faulty pump from shocking you if it did not trip before you touch the pump. Your body can feel electricity even if less than 1mA.
5mA hurts badly. Your GFCI is probably for 20-30mA range, just to prevent electricuting you, not prevent jolting.

I would advice to check in your GFCI manual what is the current threshold they trip - this will explain and lets you understand what happened. Just to say: if 30mA pass through your body you would probably not talk to us today...

Also, as it was said already in this thread, faulty pump will NOT trip the GFCI on its own if there is no contact with the ground. If the pump has no grounding prong and the container is insulated from ground (because it is made of plastic) GFCI has no reason to trip because current flowing out from the receptacle equals the current flowing in.

If you have any other questions just ask... :rollface:

[*j-cat*]

Maybe the point was missed. THE GFCI STILL SHOULD HAVE TRIPPED. Sure you may still get zapped in the future if you have "leakage", but at least the GFCI will stop you from getting seriously hurt. Your body is the ground for the electricity to move through, which should cause the loss of return electricity to the GFCI. This SHOULD trip the unit. In the home's wiring system, the GFCI constantly monitors electricity flowing in a circuit, to sense any loss of current. If the current flowing through the circuit differs by a small amount from that returning, the GFCI quickly switches off power to that circuit. The GFCI interrupts power faster than a blink of an eye to prevent a lethal dose of electricity. You may receive a painful shock, but you should not be electrocuted or receive a serious shock injury.

[*j-cat*]

Thanks pszemol,

Good explanation. Your post hadnt made it by the time I posted mine. "Electric Fields" class FriknFrag was that before, or after recess? :lol:

[skozzy]

I see many messges all over the net about RIO pumps but I am yet to see one. I am wondering if I have a rebadged pump as one of mine will not spin up after the power has gone out, I have to give it a thump and some times I have to take the cover off and spin the impeller by hand to get it started.

So, can someone post a like to a picture of one of these RIO pumps so I can compair mine to it.

[Bob (UK)]

Hi,

Instead of a ground fault circuit breaker, ( which won't work for a double insulated two core device), you need a Residual Current device (basically, it works on the difference between the live wire and its return, and if the difference is too much, pops out.)

hope this helps.....

Bob:)

[pszemol]

Originally posted by skozzy
I see many messges all over the net about RIO pumps but I am yet to see one. I am wondering if I have a rebadged pump as one of mine will not spin up after the power has gone out, I have to give it a thump and some times I have to take the cover off and spin the impeller by hand to get it started.

So, can someone post a like to a picture of one of these RIO pumps so I can compair mine to it. Have you tried cleaning/replacing the impeller? It needs to be loose and the wheel needs to move half turn without resistance - this is important to reliable start. If two parts of impeller stuck together pump will have problems starting, like yours has.

[looser]

PLEASE - PLEASE - PLEASE

If you want to help other people avoid this ongoing problem go to

http://www.cpsc.gov/

Follow the thread titled "Report an unsafe product"

The thread reads - "If you’ve had an incident with a product that caused an injury, or even think that a product might not be safe, this is the place to report it. Help us save lives and prevent more injuries."

I have already reported RIO pumps, but the more people that report them the more likely they are to check into it. If you really want to make a difference just follow the thread. It only takes a few minutes.

[adc-aquatics]

Has anyone tried Rio HyperFlow pumps? Comments?

[RichConley]

From what I've heard, Rio has not seen a pump yet that was not destroyed by running dry. If you want them to fix their pumps, we need to start reporting it TO THEM everytime one of their pumps goes bad. How are they supposed to fix it if they don't know anything is wrong.

[pszemol]

Can't they run their own tests ?

[Brad Ward]

Hi Rich,

Haven't posted here in years but I see Rio "Taam" pumps are still shocking people and destroying reef aquariums. Tamm is perfectly aware of these problems and have been long before the begining of Reef Central.

Believe me, If they really wanted to fix the product, they would. Fact is, they couldn't care less. The 2500 in particular has a fatal engineering flaw that has never been fixed. Go ahead and send them letters, gone bad pumps, ect. They never reply because of lawsuit exposure.

The guy has a great business model of building cheap pumps that sometimes fail. Not just quit mind you, but wipe out your tank fail. They have no morals, ethics or principles except making money that I can see, and I've railed against these pumps for at least 9 years on line.

Good luck to everyone that insists on using their Rio "Taam" Pumps, just don't say you weren't warned about a thousand times at least on this board when you smell "that" smell.

[Bandsaw]

Since the GFI did not trip, I'm inclined to think that the current leaving the RIO and moving through the water is finding its way back to the nutral side of the plug thus the current out is still equal to the current in. Even with your hand in the water, if the electricity is just going through your hand and exiting back to the nutral side of the plug, the GFI is not going to trip.

Is your tanked bonded (grounded)?

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6696895#post6696895 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bandsaw
Since the GFI did not trip, I'm inclined to think that the current leaving the RIO and moving through the water is finding its way back to the nutral side of the plug thus the current out is still equal to the current in. Even with your hand in the water, if the electricity is just going through your hand and exiting back to the nutral side of the plug, the GFI is not going to trip.

Is your tanked bonded (grounded)?
If you were jolted the GFCI must trip as the current went to ground trough your body creating the necessary unbalance to trigger it. Remember that they can go bad so test it regularly that is why they have the test button.

[Fred_J]

When a GFCI is installed on the fuse box side of a line everything downstream is also protected.
Fred

[Bandsaw]

The GFI only trips when the current leaving the hot side of the plug does not match the current comming back to the nutral side. When you get shocked, it just means the current went threw you - not into you and stopped. In this case, if there was no other source of ground, then the current would eventually make its way back to the nutral side of the plug. That's way it's called a "Ground" fault.

You need to ground your tank for the GFI to properly protect the system. In addition, the third prung on the GFI also must be connected to the panel nutral/Ground network properly for the thing to work.

I have had to investigate far to many accidents to know that if the ground network is not kept up and tested, then all of your protection is useless.

[jdieck]

Bansaw, just a couple of clarifications. Even if there was no other source of ground the fact that part of the current flow was trough his body is enough to create the unbalance and if there was other source of ground the GFCI just should have tripped as soon as the short ocurred and not until he touch it, this is way I mention the GFCI might be defective.

By the way, the GFCI does not need to be grounded to work properly. Measuring the current between the hot and neutral is all what is needed to detect the ground fault.

I back up the statment that a proper functioning grounding network is vital for properly grounding electrical devices casings that you may touch like hoods, pump casings, ballast bodies etc.

[Fred_J]

Recently while in Lowes to pick up a GFCI for my other tank I saw something new (at least to me). I can't remember what it was called but something like a spark arrestor?? I had to ask the employees if what I was buying was an old fashioned GFCI as this new item was right next to them and seemed to serve the same purpose. If I was not having a "senior moment" I would remember the name. It would have been very easy to have picked one of these up and installed it thinking it was a new type of GFCI. It's bugging me now, I'll have to go to Lowes to write down the name and research it.
Anyone know what I'm rambling on about? I swear I was not drinking when I saw it, can't say the same about now. LOL

Fred

[tkeracer619]

I use a RIO HF has anyone had any problems with these particular models. I baught a 17HF b4 I read about them being bad. Now i'm stuck with it until the stuff i need to buy is baught and I can spend another 70 bucks on a pump.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6705712#post6705712 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fred_J
Recently while in Lowes to pick up a GFCI for my other tank I saw something new (at least to me). I can't remember what it was called but something like a spark arrestor?? I had to ask the employees if what I was buying was an old fashioned GFCI as this new item was right next to them and seemed to serve the same purpose. If I was not having a "senior moment" I would remember the name. It would have been very easy to have picked one of these up and installed it thinking it was a new type of GFCI. It's bugging me now, I'll have to go to Lowes to write down the name and research it.
Anyone know what I'm rambling on about? I swear I was not drinking when I saw it, can't say the same about now. LOL

Fred

You may be talking about an Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter. It's function is different to the GFCI. An AFCI actuates in case of a short circuit causing sparks (an Arc) and it is intended to replace the breaker not the GFCI.

[BC Sparky]

The older residential grade GFCI receptacles failed closed. Which means that if there was a problem the receptacle still work but the GFCI sensing mechanism did not. The newer ones fail open- basically turn themselves off if the sensing mechanism fails. I would suggest that eveyone ensures they have the newer models. As posted earlier- the GFCI look for a difference on current between the hot and the neutral conductor. This difference would indicate a leakage somewhere. If you have a ground probe in the water this "potential" would have somewhere to go and the GFCI would trip because of the difference in current between the two wires. Unfortunately without a ground probe, you become an alternate path to ground and ubtil the current climbs to the threshold of the device it won't trip. You probably pulled your arm from the water pretty quick so it didn't have much time to react. In theory it will trip before you die but if it is wired wrong or you have a faulty unit...well...glad you are OK. I'd suggest using ground probes in all your tank systems.

[Fred_J]

jdieck--That's it.
Thanks
Fred

[gdm42001]

I have posted many rantings about Rio Pumps, I have had 2 do the same thing. Below is from my webpage.

http://www.sonic.net/gdm4/RIO.html


You will see I filed a complaint with the Consumer Product Safety Commision.

But, because they are less expensive they sell.
I learned my lesson, spend the extra dough up front.

If you have any other Rio's cut the cord off of them, the big ones make good door stops.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6707311#post6707311 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fred_J
jdieck--That's it.
Thanks
Fred

:thumbsup: