View Full Version : tunze wavebox in action
bluereefs
05/17/2004, 02:56 AM
Amazing
http://www.meeresaquaristik.de/foren/media/TunzeBox.mpg
http://www.meeresaquaristik.de/foren/media/TunzeBox.mpg
I hope one of the link will work;)
spanker
05/17/2004, 03:09 AM
very cool. was waiting for videos...
Aged Salt
05/17/2004, 03:09 AM
Bluereefs, they do,thnx. Bob
djfrankie
05/17/2004, 04:09 AM
Holy! is that awesome or what?
Are they being sold in the US at all?
I need to get me one!
sagitariuscbc
05/17/2004, 04:18 AM
looks very promising!
thanks bluereefs for the links!
bluereefs
05/17/2004, 04:21 AM
is that awesome or what?
IMO,yes:)
Tunze will start sell that wavebox in autumn,you can also check with Roger in tunze sponsor forum when they will have that products for sale.
BTW there are so many good news from Interzoo,loots of new products.Now we only need more money(I just aquire blue print from my neighbour bank,wish me luck:D )
LobsterOfJustice
05/17/2004, 05:57 AM
the fish look freaked out:eek:
TANGBOY5000
05/17/2004, 06:46 AM
HOLY CRAP. That looks like it might cause some issues if your overflow is too high in the tank. That is a lot of water movement. I wonder how they keep the wave from building up over time. Like when you were a kid and you did the same thing in the bath tub and eventually the wave splashed out of the tub. Hmmmmm.
FishFamily
05/17/2004, 06:52 AM
That looks great. I wonder about the tank stresses. Seems like it might cause cyclic loading of the tank seams.
vapormd
05/17/2004, 08:43 AM
Looks like my tank during the 1989 earthquake!
dirtyreefer
05/17/2004, 09:15 AM
Man, that is awesome. It totally mimics the natural wave movements in the ocean. Very impressive!
danieljames
05/17/2004, 12:39 PM
http://www.meeresaquaristik.de/foren/media/TunzeBox.mpg
mhurley
05/17/2004, 12:56 PM
[merged]
JB NY
05/17/2004, 01:02 PM
Looks cool, but I'm scared to put that on my tank :eek:
Misfit6669
05/17/2004, 01:08 PM
Thanks bluereefs for the vid, very nice. Any guess on cost?
Brian
moonpod
05/17/2004, 01:10 PM
almost 5 bills. MSRP is on the Tunze interzoo flyer. Go to Tunze.com and scroll down to interzoo news.
danieljames
05/17/2004, 01:11 PM
http://www.tunze.com/Interzoo-Neuhe..._2004_E_USD.pdf
Sorry blues...didn't realize you had already posted.
Here are some specs
BlueCorn
05/17/2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by JB NY
Looks cool, but I'm scared to put that on my tank :eek:
That and they've got like 8 tangs in that tank. We'll have to give Roger a stern talking to.
:)
Misfit6669
05/17/2004, 01:13 PM
Ouch!
Thanks Moonpod
Brian
mhurley
05/17/2004, 01:14 PM
I think this would be an absolutely awesome addition to my/any tank! I'm even willing to spend the money, however what concerns me is the tides effect on the overflow because that tank doesn't seem to have an overflow, unless it's way off to the right. Maybe I'll see if Roger can chime in here on this.
s13silvia
05/17/2004, 01:22 PM
strange, but very cool
bluereefs
05/17/2004, 01:32 PM
however what concerns me is the tides effect on the overflow because that tank doesn't seem to have an overflow,
I am not quite sure but I think that I see tunze overflow in the midlle of the tank.
Sorry blues...didn't realize you had already posted.
No problem at all:) ,we are here to share informations.
David Groos
05/17/2004, 01:35 PM
Is it just me or is it a smaller version of the wave2k?
matt_rogers
05/17/2004, 01:51 PM
They're different, check out the pdf.
Man that video is something else!! :eek: :cool:
Thats amazing
Now someone buy one, take it apart, and tell us how to DIY!
rvitko
05/17/2004, 03:34 PM
Beerguy- as for the tangs you should know Axel Tunze pioneered a belief that agression only results from competition for food and sex- same as for humans and so if you feed sufficiently no problems arrise- that is also a 7ft aquarium and the fish are very well fed. The overflow was no problem- in the center is a hnag on overflow- now, it may be noisy on a US splashbox but with a durso that should be solved. I need to study this further for the US market. You can control wave height and frequency so you could have two small waves instead of one big one if you choose.
mhurley
05/17/2004, 03:38 PM
Thanks Roger! I'd be very curious how a US style overflow deals with this. And if you need a beta-tester for an 8' tank, I'm willing!! :evilgrin:
rvitko
05/17/2004, 04:06 PM
The problem now is we only have two and with no manual they are not at all user friendly, it is not a device for the novice so I don't want to mislead anyone as it requires a fair background in physics and aquarium keeping as well as containing several components that have to be set up just right to work. It isn't beyond a reef keeper with at least moderate experience but it is more complicated than the electronic streams and multicontroller. You can imagine that it took over 2 years to get from a strange vision Norbert Tunze had from visiting a wave pool, to one Claude Hug refined using some fundamental prinicipals of resonance. Then Norbert, Axel and Claude worked for many months to resolve all sorts of detail problems like noise, bubbles and trying to make it as user friendly as possible. As impressive as that video is, in person you will not believe it. 9 out of 10 people looked for some other device and you just cannot really see the water movement from the box- it isn't at all like the Stream it is based on. I will have it at IMAC in use. For the bad news I will not attend MACNA as we have too much work to do and I am going back to Germany in September to work for the new catalogue, manual revisions and the new inovations for 2006 :)
matt_rogers
05/17/2004, 04:14 PM
Thanks for the update Roger.
What do you think will be the mininum take size required for a wavebox?
Aged Salt
05/17/2004, 05:18 PM
Bluereefs:lol: Just remember to wear gloves in that bank:D Bob
Rick Davis
05/17/2004, 05:27 PM
Hey Bob - I just noticed Columbus IN. in your Avatar.
What a coincidence - both my daughters live in the area. You still practicing medicine in Columbus?
Aged Salt
05/17/2004, 05:41 PM
Rick, YHPM, Bob
bcjack
05/17/2004, 10:46 PM
Roger,
What kind of impact would the wave action have on the lateral stability of a tank stand over a period of time? I am thinking the longer the tank the great the impact, or at least some good wear and tear on the corner joints maybe.
I am in the process of designing the stand for my first tank, 120 AGA, and I am wanting it to be nearly bombproof, so the stability thing immediately came to mind while watching the video.
It seems really incredible. I will be watching for this as I gain more experience in this addiction, ah I mean hobby :)
Todd
minimasterflash
05/17/2004, 11:00 PM
This is a very novel idea. I'm sure you have to program or adjust the cycle frequency to match the resonance frequency of the tank water. And to get 2 waves you just double that input frequency. This has got to be a big unit, basically I am thinking this is just a large bore short stroke piston moving a large volume of water over a large output area. Inteasting.
I am curious to see how this will work with various types of rockwork and tank sizes. Seems like some tanks would be more prone to this wave action, and some would be extremely resistant to this type of motion.
danieljames
05/17/2004, 11:14 PM
that type of wave motion, imo, is the most realistic wavemaker i've seen yet. Any divers out there ever dove in a bit of rough water??...It is EXACTLY like that. A strong, back and forth motion. Great comments on the stand being able to take it. I love it.
TANGBOY5000
05/18/2004, 06:36 AM
I would also be worried about tank stress with that much water movement. Columbus, IN, is a weird town. I've been there a bunch of times and it never seemed quite right. Kind of reminded me of the TV show Eerie Indiana. Everytime we were there it was a weekday, and no one seemed to be working. Everyone was just kind of out and milling around or jogging. The buildings are great though, and I love the Cummins Diesel building.
Aged Salt
05/18/2004, 10:39 AM
:lol: TangBoy, Yes, Columbus, IN. is unique. It does have some weirdo's:D Bob
rvitko
05/18/2004, 11:01 AM
I think a tank would have to be made out of card board to fold from a 1" wave. The longer the tank the more noticable the wave- the video is of a 7ft (2m) aquarium. The box is a standard Comline box about 4.5" square and 11" tall. There is one moving part - the Stream propeller. It will work on any straight tank of at least 2ft long.
danieljames
05/18/2004, 11:29 AM
Anyone see if they have one for something as small as a 30 long? I didn't notice one if they did
RGibson
05/18/2004, 11:35 AM
Roger the bad news is that most of us can not attend the I Mac show could you show a pic of the tunze wavebox? would buy if i could see one. RGibson
mhurley
05/18/2004, 11:39 AM
RGibson,
First post in this thread is a link to a movie of it in action. A few posts down from that is a link to the PDF of the product brochure which includes pictures.
Travis
05/18/2004, 11:41 AM
This unit looks awesome. As danieljames stated, this wave motion is very realistic to the ocean.
It has been pointed out that the wavebox will work on any tank that is at least 2ft long. Will it work on tanks of any width? For example, would it work the same on a tank that is 18" wide compared to a tank that is 48" wide?
RGibson
05/18/2004, 11:45 AM
Mhurley thank you. RGibson
dbrown
05/18/2004, 12:28 PM
This is incredible. I'm just curious about a couple things. The longer the tank the longer the wave would be? It looks like even a 7 foot tank limits the possibilities. I can only imagine some Goniopora swinging completely to and fro.
Does the wave hieght increase the longer the tank is as well? Meaning you would need an even higher clearance up top, say like 1" high per foot length or does the wave top out?
Lunchbucket
05/18/2004, 12:37 PM
ok gotta tag along for the ride on this one :D
Lunchbucket
TANGBOY5000
05/18/2004, 01:06 PM
It almost looks like the wave would splash out if the box did not trigger again. Look on the right hand side it's coming very near the top, but then it's like it gets sucked back before it comes to full height.
Lostmind
05/18/2004, 01:17 PM
what sucks is the pdf link is screwed up by the ... in it.
bluereefs
05/18/2004, 01:24 PM
More movies(XXX:D )
http://www.aquatechonline.net/Video/video1.avi
http://www.aquatechonline.net/Video/video2.avi
gabe3d
05/18/2004, 01:38 PM
The effect of the wave maker is quite impressive but the only concern i have is the front portion of it where water comes in. I hope that it will not create a strong suction effect. After the lost of a few livestock I've tried to minimize the suction effect as much as possible to prevent any accidents from happening. For the price and size I would definitly buy it.
Gabe
Am I watching a tennis match? I think it looks awuful. Maybe effective, but ugly to watch. Blah.
SaltNutz
05/18/2004, 01:46 PM
When and where can I buy one?
bcjack
05/18/2004, 01:51 PM
Lostmind try this link:
http://www.tunze.com/Interzoo-Neuheiten-2004/Flyer%202004/Flyer_2004_E_EUR.pdf
Todd
Achilles
05/18/2004, 02:03 PM
Wonder how the wave would react when coupled with the Tunze streams. Would it nullify the effect? Would it create whitecaps? Wow! I'm simply amazed by this device!
Lostmind
05/18/2004, 02:13 PM
Thanks bcjack!
agiacosa
05/18/2004, 02:20 PM
That's amazing! Does anyone have an ETA on selling in the US?
LobsterOfJustice
05/18/2004, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Ball
Am I watching a tennis match? I think it looks awuful. Maybe effective, but ugly to watch. Blah.
I agree. The fish aren't swimming, just bobbing around. Seems more useful on a very large tank, otherwise it just looks like too much.
SaltNutz
05/18/2004, 02:27 PM
I wonder how our standard overflows will react with this? Nice idea though.
Is the speed of the wave controllable? The oscillation in that last video looks really fast. Is it faster than a natural wave?
It would be funny to walk in on someone while they were looking at thier tank. Their head would be moving back and forth in time with the wave. Im not making fun of it. Its just that the head and eyes will follow motion. The person looking at the tank wouldnt even realize they were doing it.
Seaside Fish Lover
05/18/2004, 02:51 PM
Is there a way to control the speed of the wave. This looks like a great product but in the video the water is sloshing at such a speed that it looks unappealing to my eyes. Just my .02 cents.
I also have concerns on how well this will work with built in overflows.
TANGBOY5000
05/18/2004, 02:52 PM
This does look to be entirely too much flow for a smaller tank. I would guess that minimum you would need a 6ft tank to keep from smashing fish into the glass.
moonpod
05/18/2004, 02:54 PM
i would think that built in overflows are fine. It's the HOB that will have siphon start/stop issues maybe. Maybe not. i would imagine that the standard "reef ready" setups would be fine, maybe some noise issues, but otherwise fine.
mane3215
05/18/2004, 03:13 PM
Wow, that thing is crazy, but it is somewhat distracting.
Cody Ray
05/18/2004, 04:06 PM
I think that it looks like a great device. However, I agree that the fish look like they wont get any rest while the thing is running. On the reef, they could easly leave such an area to find calmer water. I think that you would eather have to have a massive size tank, or maybe put the thing on a cycle so that they have time to rest. Kind of like the wave pool at a water park. Maybe the key would be to have a fairly deep tank, and maybe only the upper protion of the tank would have such a large volume of water moving. Then toward the bottom you could use tunze stream pumps to mimic the lower portion of the reef. Help give the fish a place to rest. Any thoughts?
Cody Ray
05/18/2004, 07:39 PM
Btw, do you think that it would work with an all-glass megaflow overflow aquarium? It draws water from the top, middle, and bottom of the aquarium. I don't know if this would effect its performance. Here is the site: http://www.all-glass.com/
littleprince
05/18/2004, 08:14 PM
I think a slower wave current would be nice. Doesn't necessarily have to be as powerful. Very promising though.
BlueTBird
05/18/2004, 09:04 PM
I got sea sick watching the video.
danieljames
05/18/2004, 10:54 PM
787...they could rest by simply not swimming. They would move back and forth, but not into each side of the tank. Just like on a natural reef......
tanker240
05/19/2004, 12:30 AM
The wavemaker is pretty cool but if you look at you tank for 5 min and look at the video for 5 min you will get sea sick. I think it draws to much attention to the waves and you will stare at it too long. JMO
tanker240
05/19/2004, 12:30 AM
The wavemaker is pretty cool but if you look at you tank for 5 min and look at the video for 5 min you will get sea sick. I think it draws to much attention to the waves and you will stare at it too long. JMO
danieljames
05/19/2004, 12:38 AM
Seasickness is caused by YOU moving, not the surroundings. I hear ya though. I like the idea. Will be interesting to see how it developes.....
dattack
05/19/2004, 01:46 AM
Looks awesome but I did get a little seasick.:D
dattack
05/19/2004, 02:11 AM
Looks like a tunze stream sucking all the water so fast that the water level decreases, then shuts off letting the water return to normal level. Just a guess.
rvitko
05/19/2004, 04:42 AM
It uses a Stream but the secret is the physical prinicpals of resonance frequency. The box is only 2L in volume and it is all about timing. As a boy I learned that if I jumped up and down in the pool at just the right frequency I could create enormous waves- my small mass could influence a very large mass through perfect timing. If your timing is off nothing happens. The amplitude can be regulated and the waves set much smaller for effect this was set to maximum power in the video. Also, it does turn off for night mode when connected to a multicontroller or independently connected to it's own photocell. The user can control wave frequency and height and there should really be no limit to the possibilities but it will take some practice and ingenuity on the users part. The product was developed for professionals with the purpose of enabling the maintanence of many difficult species, it is very cool but it is definitely not for everybody as it is technically complex and certainly will require some patience and understanding for proper installation. There is no noticable flow or suction at the box itself, it is all a utilization of resonance. If you pull the plug the waves just slowly die down, no water sloshes out, once it is set it stays exactly as you have set it. Yes, it will make you sick if you stare at the water line, it happened to several of us and you have to focus on a reference the same as wheen you are at see to avoid this feeling. Ideally you would cover this with a canopy or melamine strip so the surfaace wave is not visible as this is not important to the effect.
RichK
05/19/2004, 05:48 AM
I'm not sure if I like it or not. The motion is great though. My main concern is the weight of the water sloshing back and forth and the effects that may have on tank seams. I don't think aquarium manufacturers design that into their tanks. However, if a tank could be reinforced in some manner, I guess it would be OK. I still prefer varying currents via a wakemaker or a device such as the Oceans Motions valves. One thing for sure, Tunze is defintely committed to the hobby.
bluereefs
05/19/2004, 06:05 AM
The product was developed for professionals with the purpose of enabling the maintanence of many difficult species,
What species?
I know that my next tank will be heteractis magnifica tank and IMO wavebox is perfect solution for that aplications but I am also interested in more options.
blgreef
05/19/2004, 06:33 AM
it may also be perfect to turn it on once twice a week to flush the reef when run with other sources streams ocean motion etc.
It would allow dirt to be pulled into the water coloum and then flushed by the intank currents,
If you look at the movement of the fish on its own its not going to move all the dirt up into the water. Looking at the video yes you have a wave in the tank but the water only moves a set distance left and right. Its in effect a standing wave being setup, as such with just the wavebox i would expect dirt crud to also collect in relation to the standing wave so its not the complete solution.
Now what would be ideal would be:
the possibility to switch the unit from wave mode to standard stream functionality, get a controler to run it in wave mode for a day and then as a power head pulsed every 30 seconds etc best of both worlds,:smokin:
But its still a fascinating product
TANGBOY5000
05/19/2004, 06:40 AM
This thing is cool. Putting a strip around the top of the tank is probably the easiest solution, if the wave bothers you. I would think that it would definitly have to be put on a timer that might cause alot of fish stress if it was on all the time. I think it's awesome, but I'll stick with my Wave2K for now.
skoiboy
05/19/2004, 06:53 AM
Wouldn't only fish near the surface be used to this movement? I agree about the stress, unless maybe you had a very deep tank.
TANGBOY5000
05/19/2004, 06:57 AM
I would think it wouldn't matter how deep the tank was. It would only be a matter of time before the entire tank was rockin' and rolling.
MacnReef
05/19/2004, 06:59 AM
Okay, putting in my 2 cents. Didn't read the whole thing so if someone has already said this...sorry.
In Europe, people use a thick glass that is glued together on the ends. If you use one of those in our tanks, you might risk it breaking the glass because our tanks don't use a real thick glass. Also, we use overflows and I am not sure how well that would work with our overflows.
BUT, they are really neat and have a great concept.
Mike
acropora
05/19/2004, 07:15 AM
Nice video.:cool: It does create alot of movement and it feels like you are scuba diving by just watching it. It may not be for everyone and you may not want it on all the time. But on a timer, various intervals during the day would be very interesting.
rvitko
05/19/2004, 07:32 AM
This type of flow will be the ideal for filter feeding non photosynthetic animals as the food is suspended and washed back and forth over the polyps. It will be a great advancement for crinoidea and is absolutely anemone safe.
Really I see absolutely no danger to the tank, European tanks do not necessarily have thicker glass, Oceanic is certainly as thick as the comparable size european tanks. Remember, you could dial in a 1/4" wave if you chose. Tanks fail from torque not weight, if you carried the same logic to the hang on filter the back pane should fall off every American freshwater tank which has been subjected to 10lbs of extra stress.
It automatically turns off at night if you choose.
The overflow box implications still need further testing and I will let you know the results soon. There is no reason to believe any problem besides noise will occur with built in overflows and this could be minimized with a durso pipe. With a hang on overflow it is likely the sump level will surge and drop as well if it is not properly tuned. We had no trouble with the show tank which had a hang on overflow and was set to maximum power.
bluereefs
05/19/2004, 08:11 AM
This type of flow will be the ideal for filter feeding non photosynthetic animals as the food is suspended and washed back and forth over the polyps. It will be a great advancement for crinoidea and is absolutely anemone safe.
Thank you Rvitko:) ,that was my second though,wavebox with new grotech phytoplancton filter and some nonphotosyntetic animals...
Did they have suces with crinoids and other dificult to keep animals(can you speak about that or is to early?)?
marrowmuse
05/19/2004, 08:23 AM
I love it. Looks like an awesome device, yet another choice in wavemakers. Is this the renaissance era of reefing, or what?
Regarding the overflows, it looks to me in that video that the overflow is located cleverly in the center of the back of the tank, where the water level stays the same. As the wave goes back and forth, water piles up at either end, but never in the middle.
Frisco
05/19/2004, 08:35 AM
[moved]
73ChargerFan
05/19/2004, 10:36 AM
Owe, I wouldn't have found this thread if it had started in the Tunze forum.
Great product, and it defitely has its place.
bluereefs
05/19/2004, 03:22 PM
Funny, in the same time discusions about wavebox are start all around the globe,in American,Holland,Croatian,France,Germany ...
Here is few picture from the France forum
http://www.recifduvendredi.org/images/wavebox_1.jpg
http://www.recifduvendredi.org/images/wavebox_2.jpg
http://www.recifduvendredi.org/images/wavebox_3.jpg
Waves are much smaller in this example
TANGBOY5000
05/19/2004, 03:29 PM
That is a very gorgeous tank. What are the dimensions?
matt_rogers
05/19/2004, 03:43 PM
Wow. Now that's a tank that needs a wavebox.
Cody Ray
05/19/2004, 03:52 PM
Love the liverock setup, but the lighting could use an upgrade!
justgettinstarted
05/19/2004, 04:01 PM
haven't any of you people been snorkeling or diving near steek reefs or cliffs before? that is exactly what the fish do is surge along the reef... so i dont think that it would be streesfull at all!
Dudester
05/19/2004, 05:03 PM
I agree with justgettinstarted ... I just got back from diving and snorkeling in Maui, and the fish were dancing in the reef, being pulled in all directions imaginable without any signs of stress.
Cody Ray
05/19/2004, 05:03 PM
no, no i have never been snorkeling or diving near steek reefs or cliffs before, sry to say. I really want to though!
justgettinstarted
05/19/2004, 05:33 PM
steek should have been steep :) or maybe steak! haha
vapor1
05/19/2004, 09:42 PM
Roger, we need a video of the wavebox used with a set of streams .
I think that a video like that would be the ultimate selling tool . I know I'll buy one if I can see one in operation with a set of streams on a multicontroller.
Just got the streams and want to see how this will fit in with them on a tank.
Cody Ray
05/19/2004, 10:31 PM
Someone said earlier in this thread that in order to be used, your tank had to be at least 2ft in lenght. My 29-gallon is 30" in lenght, does that mean that I could use one? Seems that there would be more to it than that. I understand that it requires a fair amount of skill to get it running properly, and I love to tinker with stuff (besides my old sea clone, good god!!!). :D
br1200
05/20/2004, 02:33 PM
Hi Roger,
A practical question.
Which one will show up first in the US, the 6200 or the wavebox? I'm in the process of setting up a 450G tank and would like to utilize the wavebox. How long should I wait for it ?
Thanks
-A
br1200
05/20/2004, 02:34 PM
Sorry I meant 7200 not 6200.
bluereefs
05/20/2004, 03:03 PM
Some german on line shop start to take preorders for wavebox,price 430 euro,date of the release 04.10.
vapor1
05/20/2004, 03:06 PM
thats for the euro version..usually takes a little while longer for the american version , I think
br1200
05/20/2004, 03:12 PM
Thnaks bluereefs,
You mean Oct-2004 right ?
bluereefs
05/20/2004, 03:27 PM
Yes,october 2004
acropora
05/20/2004, 03:33 PM
A few posts back, Roger stated that he would be in Germany this week,so I don't think you will get an update for a while. br1200, I just set up my
450 (http://www.acropora.net/new_arrival_450.htm) and I plan on using a couple of streams. Although the Tunze wave boxes are interesting.
melev
05/20/2004, 06:10 PM
Everything I was going to say has been said. I'm very intrigued!
It did make me sea-sick as well, but hiding the top would solve that. And the center overflow appeared to be unaffected.
luvtolean
05/21/2004, 12:06 PM
If you could slow down the frequency (different than wave height) that device is exactly what I've been wanting in a tank. For an idea of a much more "normal" (IMO of course) frequency for average reef conditions, check out Monterey Bay aquarium's...notice the frequency is much lower. It's more aesthetically pleasing IMO as well.
http://www.mbayaq.org/efc/efc_hp/hp_kelp_cam.asp
Schöne Technik Tunze!
mikefish
05/21/2004, 01:04 PM
I doubt that there is much control over the frequency. It's probably determined by the size of the tank, and would be even faster in a smaller tank. Tunze reps are saying that it is variable, but what they seem to mean is that you can speed it up by creating multiple waves. You probably can't slow it down below it's natural resonant frequency, just like you can't make a pendulum swing any slower than its natural frequency without altering its length.
Mike
luvtolean
05/21/2004, 02:20 PM
My fluid dynamics education and experience are limited, but it seems to me that it should be theoretically possible to manipulate the wavebox to alter the frequency. You don't need to hit "resonant" frequency to get a big wave. If you have 2 (or multiple) waves converge properly, they create one large one.
The .pdf won't download for me and I don't know exactly how this thing works yet...so I'll hold off on saying if they can alter frequency or not.
Frisco
05/21/2004, 06:52 PM
If I understand and recall correctly, I believe that Roger indicated that the unit does have variable amplitude and frequency adjustments. How would it work on different types of tanks (Ie, lengths) if it wasn't? When it's not at the resonant frequency, the pulses would just interact destructively and eliminate the oscillation effect that produces the wave action. Also, I think he indicated that the driver can only support first and second order resonant frequencies on a typical tank (typical length presumably).
rvitko
05/22/2004, 12:41 PM
OK, I spent the last couple days at a seminar with Claude and Axel and I took notes and have the full scoop on the wavebox. Here is what we know.
The shorter the tank, the faster the frequency.
Frequency is fixed by resonance and cannot be adjusted- you can tune the frequency but for alll but the longest tanks only one frequency is effective in prodoucing a wave. In a tank over 2m a double wave is possible, in a tank over 4m a 4x wave is possible.
Here are the wave sizes at full power- amplitude can be adjusted on the driver that is common to all Tunze Electronic pumps and does not affect controller function at 100% the following is known dimensions are in cm, F is freq in seconds, w is wave height (crest to trough in mm)
70-50-50 F=.45s W=40
100-70-70 F=.56 W=35
120-70-60 F=.63 W=35
150-100-60 F=.83 W=30
180-100-60 F=.86 W=30
220-80-50 F=1.10 W=25
200-80-65 F=1.15 W=25
Round and Triangular tanks create an elliptical wave pattern.
Rock layout and corals effect resonance and adjustments have to be made every feew months to acccomodate coral growth.
The Pros of the wavebox are
In a 2m tank you can move 100,000l/h of water with 30w of power!
The pressure and dynamic of the wave improves permeation in to the rock and sand bed improving bio function
Detritus is almost non existant- no dead spots exist
Cons
On a old tank it could cause algae problems as the detritus and opening of the structure to flow will liberate phosphates and drop redox
Tank life is shortened by the dynamic load. We approximate a tank constructed to DIN standards looses 10-20% of it's life when all other assembly and installation is 100% correct. (Unfortunately the US has no standard system like the Deutches Institute Normalization but we can estimate that a well made name brand US tank will have a 15 year life and the wavebox will reduce that to 12 at most if all other instalation is correct-i.e. it is level and properly supported)
The flow is not exactly natural, the natural wave would be much longer but given the size of the device and ultimate in energy savings it is the best that can be accomplished and is the most natural flow available to hobbyists.
So, the ideal flow system now is two Electronic Streams on opposite ends back corner aimed to the front center glass and operated on interval mode 2 on multicontroller 7095 with changes in pump operation every 6hrs or so. The wave box is coordinated and shuts off at night. This flow is a 50% approximation of what exists in the ocean and the best accomplished yet by any means.
Some details for the controller 6091:
The unit can run three ways- one box connected to the multicontroller or two boxes independent and run synchronously (same side for bigger tanks) or Inverse where to boxes are run opposite on huge tanks to boost the flow. Maximum freq is 1.4 sec- any longer and the box prodouces bubbles.
That is all the info I have and that is direct from Claude Hug the developer and primary tester of the wavebox 6212.
acropora
05/22/2004, 12:51 PM
Thanks for the update.
Cody Ray
05/22/2004, 01:32 PM
Im a little lost. So what you are saying is that it is better to run two waveboxes on seperate ends of a tank at 6hr intervals. Is this to help mimic tidel conditions through out the day? And the system shuts off at night. Does this mean that you will need a seperate system for water movment at night?
melev
05/22/2004, 01:35 PM
25,000gph is very impressive! :eek2:
Quick question. From watching the video, the water swells and ebbs, but the surface looks pretty stationary/stagnant. In a power shortage, where you simply run the least equipment possible, running the wave box at 30w per hour on a UPS would be ideal. However, is there oxygenation, or does that water have to crash over itself to attain that?
rvitko
05/22/2004, 02:55 PM
FLCL787! - Only one wavebox- two streams.
Melev- Any time you increase the surface area you get improved oxygenation and the water is moving and mixing, the wavebox alone could be sufficient flow in many applications and I think gas exchange would be fine.
Cody Ray
05/22/2004, 03:32 PM
Thnx rvitko, I sometimes run ideas together when I read. It is a bad habit that needs to be broken. BTW, this is off topic, but in your current tanks discription, it says that your have a Ritteri anemone. What is it's diameter?
pomme
05/22/2004, 03:49 PM
what i would worry about with this is the pump getting nackered over a short period. is this likely or just me being scepticle?
RGibson
05/22/2004, 04:17 PM
Roger it would seem that useding one wavebox say on a 180 gal reef tank that you do not need any other pump it allso would look like that the tank would not need a sump. 26,420 per hour is a great deal of water how did thay chech the water flow? RGibson 30 years playing with water.
RedEyeReef
05/23/2004, 02:27 PM
Roger,
How well will a Wave box work on a 96" x 36 “ x 24" tank that has 3 bulkhead over flows on one end of the tank?
Earlier I thought it was said that the Wave Box would not hurt a tank but now you are saying it will shorten my tank life by up to 20%? That is a little un-nerving.
Will overflows shorten the wave height and help not short the life of the tank?
TANGBOY5000
05/23/2004, 04:35 PM
Yes, shortening of tank life is a concern. Why can't we just have our cake and eat it too.
melev
05/23/2004, 11:06 PM
At least we are warned in advance rather than finding out on our own that the tank didn't last as long as expected.
djfrankie
05/24/2004, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by TANGBOY5000
Yes, shortening of tank life is a concern. Why can't we just have our cake and eat it too.
Life expectancy from 15 down to 12 years :eek: , but then again who really keeps their tanks that long?
djfrankie
mikefish
05/24/2004, 07:53 AM
I would certainly be interested in seeing more video of the wavebox in operation on different sized tanks, and with the multiple waves on bigger tanks. Perhaps on a very long tank of say 10', this thing may look very very good indeed. Perhaps worthy of designing a tank around.
Mike
rvitko
05/24/2004, 09:25 AM
It seemed to my logic that it shouldn't shorten tank life but the team engineers said otherwise and so I am correcting my previous statements. A surge box would do the same, fluctuating water levels create dynamic stress and cause the silicon to flex and strain, there just is no way around it.
Flow was calculated by multiplying 1/2 of wave height times frequency times number of wave frequencies in an hour.
We spent the last two years making sure the pump is silent and will take the abuse, all of the stream redesigns that have occured to give us the 6200 and fish care function were part of the changes that were needed to make the wavebox.
srfndoc
05/24/2004, 11:05 AM
Would the shortening of tank life occur in acrylic tanks as well or would
they be immune since there are really no seams? I wonder if this unit would invalidate the lifetime warranty on most acrylic tanks?
rvitko
05/24/2004, 11:28 AM
I don't know. I would think acrylic may be immune but acrylic presents some difficulties with mounting that would need to be explored first.
moonpod
05/24/2004, 11:38 AM
You couldn't just mount the thing on a couple of the magnet mounts????
rvitko
05/24/2004, 12:42 PM
Absolutely. The main problem is that it needs to be able to breathe so a small space has to exist between the brace and the box and the box needs to stick out of the water a bit.
rvitko
05/24/2004, 12:43 PM
BTW- only one magnet mount is needed.
moonpod
05/24/2004, 12:46 PM
How much does it need to stick out of the water--in general my water line is no where near the top of my tank anyways, but out of curiosity???
RGibson
05/24/2004, 01:13 PM
Roger if i wanted to buy a wavebox from Marine Depot how long will it take to get one. RGibson
rvitko
05/24/2004, 01:24 PM
Give me a couple weeks to get pricing to all the dealers. The main hold up on the wavebox is a manual and getting a few hundred stored up, we won't release it until a fair amount are built in hopes we can avoid some of the delays we have had with the Stream. The current approximation is we will have it in August.
In should stick out about 2" on a 180.
moonpod
05/24/2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by rvitko
In should stick out about 2" on a 180.
ooohhhh, that is a problem.....
rvitko
05/24/2004, 01:32 PM
You can't run the water 2" below the surface? This factors in a 3/4" wave and about 1" above the surface of the wave- likely it could be less but I won't know until I try.
moonpod
05/24/2004, 01:36 PM
I dunno....I don't think so....not w/my current overflow configuration....I suppose if I cut the teeth longer, but that'd be a lot of time w/a dremel....
JOSHUAB
05/24/2004, 01:41 PM
That's pretty sweet!!!!
rvitko
05/24/2004, 01:42 PM
I think it should work, I will get one late this week and try it on a friends 180 Oceanic and let you know.
RGibson
05/24/2004, 01:46 PM
Roger take some pics of the 180 Oceanic.
rvitko
05/24/2004, 01:51 PM
Will do. I have a few short movies that have more of the details from several angles including what is happening in the box and conroller but I need to get them edited.
weatherson
05/24/2004, 02:16 PM
Roger,
I don't think it's accurate to equate the stress placed on a tank between the water motions created by the wavebox to a surge bucket. In the case of a surge bucket, the water is constantly rising and lowering within the tank as a whole. Granted this will cause some additional stress compared to a static level but the side-to-side wave action produced by the wavebox adds much greater lateral forces that I would estimate to cause much greater stress levels.
Your comments stating tank life reduction based on "quality built" tanks leads me to believe that Tunze may want to consider a waiver document to be signed by the purchaser at the time of purchase. ;) Unfortunately, there are many less than "quality built" tanks out there.
Joseph
rvitko
05/24/2004, 02:28 PM
As I said the instructions have yet to be written and so we know it is a problem and they said as much, that if a customer put it on a 15 year old tank it may fall apart in 5 minutes. On the other hand, I think the cutsomers that buy Tunze equipment generally have spent well on the whole set up and likely have a nice tank too. I personally think it is a non issue as you could dial the wave down quite low and having worked in aquarium shops most of my life the amount of strain a tank can take is rather amazing, I was always impressed more tanks didn't fail, the ratio is very low.
melev
05/24/2004, 02:33 PM
that if a customer put it on a 15 year old tank it may fall apart in 5 minutes.
ROFL!!!
luvtolean
05/24/2004, 03:21 PM
Roger, Tunze seems to have some good engineers/technical people working for them. It should be fairly easy for them to instrument a tank with strain gauges to see how much stress really is being generated.
rvitko
05/24/2004, 03:29 PM
Good idea. Do you have any idea on how to do this? We just have some basic calculations from formulas that gave us the knowledge we have. The main problem is we don't have anyone with structural knowledge, Axel is trained as an environmental engineer specializing in sewage treatment and Claude is a retired electrical engineer for an aluminum manufacturer. Otherwise we have two machinists and an electrician. We don't really have anyone familiar with these sorts of structural tests.
weatherson
05/24/2004, 03:58 PM
Roger,
Interesting response but you seem to have taken my post's point wrongly or missed it completely. I was simply commenting on your reference made to surge buckets and how this designs wave action would cause similar, minimal stress loads. I would have to disagree with this assumption and feel you misrepresent your product in doing so. Of course, this is simply my opinion but I wanted to clarify this.
The comment I made about the tank life reduction was made in humor and I thought represented so with the ;) . Sorry if it came across otherwise.
Regards and keep the great products coming.
Joseph
luvtolean
05/24/2004, 04:06 PM
Well, yes, as a mechanical engineer I know how to do it...but that won't help you too much. Wanna send me a wavebox and tank? ;)
Seriously, it's pretty easy to do and I think your engineers will love it. It's a very simple principle as the sensor just looks for a change in resistance as the sensor elongates (reducing its conductivity). The sensor is epoxied on the tank.
Here's a paper that should get them started:
http://www.omega.com/literature/transactions/volume3/strain.html
And the same people (Omega) are a great source for equipment (at least in the US):
http://www.omega.com/newsearchengine/esearch.asp?start=0&perPage=10&summary=yes&sort=rank&search=strain+gauge&submit=Search
You'll spend some money and time to do it right, but in the end it should be well worth the effort.
rvitko
05/24/2004, 04:10 PM
Sorry Joseph, I didn't mean to seem defensive. I agree with what you said, but the truth is we don't exactly know. All I was trying to say was in my life I have seen crooked tanks, tanks on unlevel floors, poorly made stands, 30+ years old, left in a hot garage and they hold water. I also have seen new tanks unexplainedly blow a seal. That is the point, it is just so hard to say what caused it to fail and I still firmly believe a well made tank will not suffer from this device.
Thanks luvtolean. Tunze actually uses quite a few American made components and meters so it should be no problem to aquire these.
Cody Ray
05/24/2004, 04:26 PM
This is all very interesting!
RedEyeReef
05/24/2004, 04:59 PM
Roger, you said that the waves can be dialed down. I have a 360 gallon (96"x36"x24") and the overflows are 3 bulkheads on one end. The water level is about 2" from the top and it is an acrylic tank.
With what you know so far, will the Wave Box work if the waves are dialed down? I know from reading on the Wave Box I can get 2 wave cycles with an 8' tank. How small can the waves be and the Box still work?
Frisco
05/24/2004, 07:54 PM
I'm not a ME, but wouln't you just need to use some sort of pressure transducer to measure the pressure of the pulses (peak to valley over a cycle) and then use the area of the sensor to calculate the force?
rvitko
05/24/2004, 09:22 PM
RER- I don't know yet. It will "work" with a wave that is almost too small to be visible but whether or not that would be a useful flow is unlikely and I need to see just how low the waves can be and still provide a useful amount of flow. Both the 6212 and 7095 were sent to me last week, they are the only working final models of there type so when I get them I will be learning more, especially on the 7095 since I am writing the manual for it.
RedEyeReef
05/24/2004, 11:08 PM
Ohhhh the 7095... I can't wait to get my hands on one of those.
Please keep us posted here over the next few months while you work/play with the 7095 & 6212.
rvitko
05/25/2004, 12:43 PM
The 7095 is really cool, the brightening and dimming LED for lunar cycle simulation is really perfect. I was really impressed with how that turned out. I also really like the new program for interval where the other pump just runs at minimum power and the LED power bar graph is really a nice touch too.
luvtolean
05/25/2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Frisco
I'm not a ME, but wouln't you just need to use some sort of pressure transducer to measure the pressure of the pulses (peak to valley over a cycle) and then use the area of the sensor to calculate the force?
Frisco, did you read the first link I posted? That's what a strain gauge basically is...and they're cheap.
Frisco
05/25/2004, 08:18 PM
Yeah I clicked your link and it seemed to show devices for measuring thin film stresses in semiconductors, but I guess I just might not have hunted around long enough to see the right one.
vapor1
05/25/2004, 08:45 PM
No fair....send the 7095 to me roger , and I will test it for you..hehehehehe
Originally posted by rvitko
OK, Rock layout and corals effect resonance and adjustments have to be made every feew months to acccomodate coral growth.
Roger,
will it be difficult to get a proper wave in a reef tank of 1000 litres if theres too much live rock? My tank is 2 meters in length and has a plexiglass shelf with rock above and below. Due to good growth of my SPS corals there's not much space left. I currently use both Turbelle 4002 and Streampumps and they make a good current.
Since the movie file from Interzoo '04 shows an open structure with no rock in front of the Wavebox, I am curious if it will work in my tank?
Sorry if my English is incorrect.
rvitko
05/26/2004, 06:42 AM
Your English is better than mine ;) It will work regardless of the rock density, it will just be tuned to a slightly different frequency.
matt_rogers
05/26/2004, 10:15 AM
Gotta ask Roger.. what does the wavebox sound like? Is it loud?
luvtolean
05/26/2004, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Frisco
Yeah I clicked your link and it seemed to show devices for measuring thin film stresses in semiconductors, but I guess I just might not have hunted around long enough to see the right one.
Nah, as you probably know (better than I) given your "Occupation", there's better ways to do that such as measuring the change in curvature of the wafer.
Here's a couple of pics showing the type of application I'm most familiar with for them:
http://dragon.herts.ac.uk/ea2/strain.htm
rvitko
05/26/2004, 10:27 AM
Really no noticable noise whatsoever. I would say it is even quieter than the Streams thanks to a new sound dampening system. I almost finished with the video so in a few minutes I should have a link.
rvitko
05/26/2004, 10:43 AM
This link will take you to a QuickTime download. It takes about 2min to download with DSL. You will need QuickTime to view it.
http://homepage.mac.com/rogervitko/FileSharing6.html
rvitko
05/26/2004, 10:44 AM
Here is a pic of the Wavebox
rvitko
05/26/2004, 10:44 AM
This is the controller that is included
moonpod
05/26/2004, 10:54 AM
dammiiitt Roger, I NEED one of those things!!!!
luvtolean
05/26/2004, 10:55 AM
So Roger, in a smaller tank the frequency will be higher but you also mention rock. Will the rock drop the frequency? Nice vid.
I will buy one of these as soon as I have a tank worthy of it, nice product.
rvitko
05/26/2004, 10:57 AM
The rock will change the frequency, depending on placement it could increase it or drop it. A center island will drop it, a outer wall will increase it.
luvtolean
05/26/2004, 10:58 AM
Yeah, makes sense.
Mantis
05/26/2004, 11:45 AM
On 6 foot long 3 foot wide tank will one wavebox be enough to create the nice big wave, or will I need the second unit next to it. (SPS tank)
rvitko
05/26/2004, 11:48 AM
One will be enough. The wave would be just shy of 1" high at full power.
SaltNutz
05/26/2004, 12:39 PM
Do we have a cost and availability yet?
rvitko
05/26/2004, 12:53 PM
Cost is $466.99 complete, an extension without the controller is $416.12. They should start shipping around late August or Early September.
moonpod
05/26/2004, 12:55 PM
Roger....no sooner???? C'mon how about a little love for the faithfull????
rvitko
05/26/2004, 01:33 PM
As I said before, we have one complete unit of the final version, maybe 2 or 3 by now. They will start with the production in a few weeks but they will not ship until we have 500 on reserve. We just don't want to have the problems with supply we had with the Streams and even then I believe that at least 500 have already been ordered by distributors so it is still likely we will face some shortages.
moonpod
05/26/2004, 01:36 PM
see now Roger, that dude in your avatar....that's what I'm doing right now.....
RGibson
05/26/2004, 01:39 PM
Roger-send one for moonpod to buy,you have two all you need is one.Then he can test it and will tell how it work out in his tank that way we can get a out side view of the wave box. RGibson
rvitko
05/26/2004, 01:48 PM
I only know of one working unit and it just showed up here- the same one that was in the video. I am bringing it to IMAC to demonstrate. When I left Germany they had two others but without controllers as that had just been finalized in the days before the show.
David Grigor
05/26/2004, 02:36 PM
Roger, I don't know if you answered this one or not. If you did i didn't catch it....
Will the wave unit work in conjuction with existing streams ( or some other method of water movement ) or do you run just one type or the other ? In otherwords could I still use the existing streams in the same tank ?
rvitko
05/26/2004, 02:39 PM
Yes, the ideal flow condition is from using two electronic streams on Tide Mode with the wavebox which will connect to the multicontroller and provide a flow set up where the wavebox runs with the Streams during the day and cuts off at night. The wavebox alone is good for algaes and soft corals and some LPS but for SPS the Streams would be a necessity.
Cody Ray
05/26/2004, 03:47 PM
$466.99!!! Wow, and I had my hopes up too. :( lol. So from what you said in your last post, does that mean that the wavbox and streams run durring the day, but only the streams run at night?
rvitko
05/26/2004, 03:56 PM
Yes, and at reduced power. If you think about it, you get a Stream that is half way between a 6100 and 6200- $300-$400 pump. A controller that is a bit more complex than the single controller- $50 and a Comline box with holders about $70. The price is pretty much what would be expected from the cumulatve parts and you would probably be surprised by just how much it actually costs to make one of these things, the profit is not what people seem to imagine.
Cody Ray
05/26/2004, 04:12 PM
I was manly dreaming, I knew that It was going to be a bit pricy.
RedEyeReef
05/26/2004, 05:10 PM
Roger, you talked about the new "fish safe" or something that spins the Streams periodically, or something, to keep fish out. If I have old Streams but get the new 7095 when it becomes availible, will the new controller fish safe thing work on my Streams?
Sorry for changing the subject of this thread.
rvitko
05/26/2004, 05:24 PM
Here are the options for making an old pump fish safe.
Multicontroller 7095 has two versions of what was formerly Tide Mode. It has been renamed Interval Mode and there are versions 1 and 2. In version 1 the other pump never turns off, instead it stays at a low power without pulsing.
You could also change the drivers, with this you will get Fish Care which spins the pump once every 20 seconds when it is "off" as a function of one of our controllers either by Food Timer or by Tide or Sequence or Interval modes.
The 3rd way is still under development but we have a mechanical system that will be an option for the 6060 and 6080.
RedEyeReef
05/26/2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by rvitko
Here are the options for making an old pump fish safe.
Multicontroller 7095 has two versions of what was formerly Tide Mode. It has been renamed Interval Mode and there are versions 1 and 2. In version 1 the other pump never turns off, instead it stays at a low power without pulsing.
Version 1 would be perfect for my setup. I CAN"T WAIT to get my hands on one of these.:cool:
Originally posted by rvitko
They should start shipping around late August or Early September.
Roger, will the Wavebox be on the market at same time in Europe? I heard from my contact/LFS in Germany, early October?
rvitko
05/27/2004, 06:57 AM
Originaly the release was going to be October but we are trying to move it forward. The release date should be the same everywhere except Germany will likely be first by a couple weeks.
Cody Ray
05/29/2004, 09:58 AM
BTW, this is a random question, but how will dragonets do? Seems to me that they would get picked up and moved into things (rocks, corals, anemones!!!).
gucer
05/29/2004, 10:31 AM
is there a wait list anywhere?
RGibson
05/29/2004, 11:06 AM
Tunze USA will lose if there are to many wait lists because it will look like the wavebox was pre sold before thay could deliver them bad PR. RGibson
MediaOne
05/29/2004, 02:04 PM
I'm sorry but I must comment on a previous post about disassembling this product for DIY purposes. This is not a flame.
It's important for us aquarists to realize that we need companies to produce break through technologies for the aquarium trade. The Tunze Wavebox is a break through; I have been waiting for a commercial product such as this for a long time.
One way we can ensure companies keep trying to create units like this is by supporting them; actually buying their products. We need competing companies to start producing similar products so that prices drop, and the only way that is going to happen is when a demand exists for the commercial product. DIY takes away from this again.
Please support companies offering new and interesting technologies!
Just my 0.02
* Again this is not a flame, I just was reminded of this trend I have noticed in peoples thinking in recent years. I work in the marine aquarium trade, and no it's not for Tunze.
Cheers!
Aged Salt
05/29/2004, 04:50 PM
Jeff makes a valid point, & there's really enough room for the DIY's in this hobby. Even if I had enough time, my tech skills wouldn't scare Tunze:D Bob
rvitko
05/29/2004, 07:23 PM
I know Premium Aquatics and Champion have already taken a few orders. I see no problem with wait lists- heck I'm on one waiting to get them for the US market. FWIW I was first in line but I know that the first ones will of course be sold in Germany just in case something goes wrong they will be close to home and easy to recall.
melev
05/29/2004, 10:06 PM
I don't quite see the issue with wait-lists either. If we didn't know about this product until it was officially released, we'd still have to wait if there was an immediate rush. First order in is the first order shipped.
rvitko
05/30/2004, 12:11 PM
Today I ran 4 tests in US made aquariums. First was a custom Oceanic 150- 48" long and 30" wide by 24" tall with one oversized corner overflow with 1.5" drain and 3/4" return. The result was a 1/2" wave with no real affect on the overflow and no need to change water level.
I then tested it in a standard Reef Ready Oceanic 120. The result was the same.
I tried a custom Oceanic 75 measuring 36" by 24" by 20" The result was chaos- apparently the tank was too short to get a correct resonance frequency. As a result I cannot advice it's use on a tank less than 1m or 38" long- it was close but no cigar, I could get a 1/4" 1.5 wave pattern. The effect was still useful but not as impressive.
I tried it on a generic custom tank of 8ft long by 18" wide and 20" tall. I got a 1" wave as the Tunze data suggested- this was a non reef ready tank. I was also able to set up a 1/2" double wave.
The conclusion I have drawn is overflowboxes are fine. They do however have the effect of dampening the wave since it is "collected" by the overflow box and doesn't really build up. The effect for the corals though was still similar to the video but without a great surface wave. It is not useful for tanks under 1m in length, barring further tuning of the wavebox or a possible better effect without an overflow box.
technoshaman
05/30/2004, 12:16 PM
Roger, will you get a demo unit for Aquatek? And will you have them on the shelves there or am I better off ordering online and adding to the queue?
rvitko
05/30/2004, 12:25 PM
Just tell Bruce or Aaron and it should be the same wait. I have one I tried out at AquaTek today to get those test results but I need it for IMAC and then after that it will be on my hometank. BTW- you live so close you can just come see it. So you know Bruce and Aaron own AquaTek now.
RGibson
05/30/2004, 12:39 PM
Roger it would have been good if you could show pic of the tanks. RGibson
vapor1
05/30/2004, 12:51 PM
I would love to see the video of the wave box on the 120 Reef Ready .
A 6 foot tank would be nice too .
rvitko
05/30/2004, 12:54 PM
I didn't have much time today but will try to get a video soon. Unfortunately my only 6ft tanks are freshwater.
rvitko
05/30/2004, 12:54 PM
I'll try it on a friends 180.
vapovick
05/30/2004, 01:18 PM
ok, so Tunze makes some super cool stuff, but can someone tell me why they charge soooooo much for everything ? I can remember seeing a magnet for over 200.00 ????? whats up with that, you cant get a small powerhead for under 200.00.. I know that the quality is good, but man ! I can say myself and others would have a lot more quailty gear if the price was REASONABLE !!!
./just a rant...
but the wave box looks killer ...
moonpod
05/30/2004, 01:26 PM
I dunno that magnet (except I think Roger stated that it was deliberately priced really expensive b/c the thing is borderline a weapon--seriously), but if you've ever used Tunze powerheads vs "the rest", then you'll know what you are paying for. The things last forever. Unbelievable electrical effeciency. I was also a skeptic before I started using the stuff.
rvitko
05/30/2004, 01:36 PM
I had posted a thread showing how everything was made- by hand. The markup on Tunze stuff is actually much lower percentage wise than what is on a $30 powerhead. With a 75gal tank you would only need a 220.54 magnet- $25. For a powerhead you would need a 7400/2 and a single controller. The flow is equal to 4 maxijets and with a wavemaker which is at best half the quality because it is only off and on that is a $200 set, the Tunze set is just under $300 and will last twice as long and uses 1/3 the electricity. If you really give it more than a glance over it is very reasonably priced. The $200 magnet is cheaper than a competing magnavore for glass of equal thickness. But again, our products are hand made in a first world country with first world labor prices and standards- we can't torture people in a third world country, making them breathe in toxic adhesives and fumes and send them home with six bucks for a days labor like the cheap competition. We have to meet German occupational standards which means low VOC adhesives, fume hoods, labor laws, minimum wages, paid vacations, pregnancy and sick leave, etc. If you add the quality, the unique features of computerized low voltage control, the pumps and all products are very reasonably priced and you will save money in the long haul on electricity and the life span of the product. We do also make standard synchronous powerheads and they are well under $200, the expensive units are low voltage electronic models.
rvitko
05/30/2004, 01:38 PM
BTW- the really big $500 220.58 magnet was canceled. I insisted that it be canceled after seeing Mr. Tunze get injured by it and realizing that it could have been far more serious if someone was alone or had it in a different position. It was agreed that such a tool wouldn't meet any safety guidelines in any industry and no warning could ever make it safe so it is not going to be made. Back to the drawing board on cleaning really giant tanks.
vapovick
05/30/2004, 01:49 PM
This was never meant as a flame. And I really like the feedback, Thank you.
I think the products look great, and from what I have heard, preform great.
Someday, I might be able to get some streams, until then...
./take care...
scbauer
05/30/2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by vapormd
Looks like my tank during the 1989 earthquake!
Looks like my swimming pool during the '89 earthquake. About half the water went through the garage and into the street.
rvitko
05/30/2004, 02:04 PM
I didn't take it as a flame. I always thought the same thing, and when I started selling it my shop several years ago I never expected it to sell but it is really one of those things that once you see it and hold it you really can feel the quality and understand why it costs what it does. The attention to detail is what makes a really quality product. An example would be for me that I am an avid DIY'er on home improvement projects and my favorite tool was a Hilti hammer drill that I had stolen a few months ago when my house was broken into. They cost twice what the competitors cost but after using one- which was given to me by a friend who upgraded and owed me some money- I couldn't live without it. I took my tax return to go buy another last week and it is worth every penny to be able to bore through concrete in seconds with no discomfort and to be so smooth and precise it can drill tile or ceramic. Again, the $500 vs the $250 of the Bosch is in details, the one touch chuck removal, the smooth control of the speed trigger, the knowledge it will last forever (or until stolen). Bosch is good to but when you have used both you can understand why you pay for it. I also think to my household appliances and buying 3 vacuum cleaners in 6 years- a Eureka and 2 Phantoms- total cost $600. The last time I bought a Miele, $500. For two years all I have to do is bring it in and somebody can fix it for free- after that it is only the cost of parts and a nominal labor fee, it will last forever it seems, and the power beats the others hands down, it also is so quiet you can talk to someone while vacuuming. If it just lasts 6 years I will save $100 over my old way. The dealer showed me one that was being repaired for the USPS to clean out machines after the Anthrax scare mandated a HEPA vacuum. It had 6000 hrs of use or the equivalent of 120 years of household use! It looked like hell but still worked.
matt_rogers
05/30/2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by rvitko
But again, our products are hand made in a first world country with first world labor prices and standards- we can't torture people in a third world country, making them breathe in toxic adhesives and fumes and send them home with six bucks for a days labor like the cheap competition.
Well said. :D
The day this wavebox comes out is the day I am starting a bigger tank.
I must agree on the Tunze products. A bit pricy yes, but if you compare longelivity, electrical efficiency, function and development, it is surely one of the best German brands.
I do not know the many overseas products, but for example, in the mid 80's I managed to get my father to buy a Tunze Turbelle 4000 pump in Germany. That pump is still in use - of course new bearings and new impeller - but the motor and plastic is still OK.
Cody Ray
05/31/2004, 03:49 PM
rvitko, I'm curious if the wavebox will decrease the number of once thought impossible to keep animals. I wounder how anemones, turtle grasses, and filter-feeding animals will fare now. Creating ideal water motion has always been one of the more difficult aspects of marine aquariums, right?
rvitko
05/31/2004, 04:39 PM
We don't know but I suspect it will be a big step forward.
MiddletonMark
05/31/2004, 04:47 PM
Roger, sometimes I gotta just laugh.
You say something smart, and there's Beavis, uh, well he's over there doing his thing :)
Gotta love it :thumbsup:
rvitko
05/31/2004, 04:54 PM
Habib looks like Butthead BTW :lol:
I don't ever want anyone to take me to seriously ;)
vapor1
05/31/2004, 05:14 PM
Thats a good one Roger....:lol: :lol:
RedEyeReef
05/31/2004, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by rvitko
The conclusion I have drawn is overflowboxes are fine. They do however have the effect of dampening the wave since it is "collected" by the overflow box and doesn't really build up. The effect for the corals though was still similar to the video but without a great surface wave. It is not useful for tanks under 1m in length, barring further tuning of the wavebox or a possible better effect without an overflow box.
To make sure I understand this, overflows will lessen the height of the wave, right? So does that mean when a wavebox is used on a tank with overflows it will not (or not as much) lessen the life of the tank by the 10% - 20% stated before?
And even though the wave height is less (good for my tank) is the side to side movement under the water the same or close to the same?
I hope this is the case because as cool as that video of the wavebox in action is, that is to much wave at the ends for my 8' tank. I don't want water splashing out or failed tank in 7 more years.
rvitko
06/01/2004, 07:50 AM
Underwater movement seems the same, the wave height is reduced because it gets caught by the overflow which seems to act as an energy absorber. On a 8' tank expect a 1/2"-3/4" tall wave. As for tank life, I can't say. Tank life isn't likely much different from yours or mine, a baseball could fly through the window at it tomorrow or it could unexpectedly rupture next week. We really have no way of knowing this. In Germany this is a little easier because all manufacturing processes have a standard known as DIN (actually all processes from waitering to return policies and warranty handling), because of this most aquariums are made more or less the same so you have a set of rules you can test against. Still, until we have 20+ years of data we likely won't have an absolute answer though I do want to try the stress sensors that were described by a couple of the engineers on this board.
Frisco
06/01/2004, 08:23 AM
I'm guessing that the 'issue' with the overflows might be reduced if the overflow is located right at the center point of the tank (more importantly, at the centerline of the standing wave pattern where the water height is relatively constant) instead of on one of the ends? Either way, it seems like a bit of a non-issue to me. What I'd like to know is how the concept could be applied to larger tanks with an even more pronounced wave effect (a 6-12" crest would be awesome); I'd certainly build my next tank custom around that as a design point...
rvitko
06/01/2004, 08:28 AM
That is something we are working on for public aquaria. At present you could use two waveboxes and double the wave height on smaller aquaria.
Cody Ray
06/01/2004, 02:03 PM
Have you tested the wavebox on 55-65 gallons yet? I have a 60 gallon sitting in my room, and I have been interested in doing something with it. Would the wavebox work with it? It is 48" long.
rvitko
06/01/2004, 02:10 PM
It will work with 4ft tanks and I was told today it should even work with a 30" tank but the controller I was sent could not pulse any faster than .5 sec intervals and the actual production unit is capable of .3. At .5sec a 4ft tank is the smallest you can set the frequency for.
Cody Ray
06/01/2004, 02:53 PM
Cool thnx.
gucer
06/06/2004, 06:05 PM
Roger
Sorry for asking this but couldn`t find the answer.
Do you think the box will work with external glass overflow and water level just 1" from the top? That`s how I hope my new 250 will work, but is actually on paper and I can change it if I need. Is needed a minimal level distance
And other question, The multicontroller can deal with 2 streams and 1 box?
gucer
06/06/2004, 08:49 PM
I made the question becouse tomorrow will be drilled the back glass so still have time for changes......
rvitko
06/06/2004, 08:59 PM
OK, I save the hard questions for last :lol: especially when i'm tired I avoid anything that requires thought. I would go with 1.5" just to be on the safe side but it should work, maybe 1.25? I think it will be fine but you can more easily run a bit low than add on to the tank. It should give a 1/2" wave but.... The multicontroller can handle up to 8 connections of any combination.
gucer
06/06/2004, 09:09 PM
Thanks!!!!
I think will go with the safer option.
And will go for wait list for 2 streams 6100, one box and one multicontroler.
Thanks again:)
shred5
06/07/2004, 11:30 AM
I saw one of these at Imac this weekend and it is amazing.
Dave
MiddletonMark
06/07/2004, 12:15 PM
Agreed :thumbsup:
Every bit as cool as the video, if not more. Went and gazed at that tank a couple times a day :D
MiddletonMark
06/07/2004, 12:15 PM
crap, double post
worthy of it, though ;)
cwbroden
06/07/2004, 12:55 PM
It definately was an impressive looking display in person. Something to think about for future tanks.
The box is a little big though. Takes up a lot of space. More that I thought it would when I first read about it.
melev
06/07/2004, 12:57 PM
It really is too bad there won't be a demo at Macna, because I am sure many people would have loved to see it in action. Did any of you get a slight sea-sick feeling seeing it in person?
Maybe Roger can send one of his minions to display the latest Tunze goodies? :D
RGibson
06/07/2004, 01:30 PM
cwbroden how large a tank was the wavebox in ? RGibson
shred5
06/07/2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by RGibson
cwbroden how large a tank was the wavebox in ? RGibson
75 GALLON...
RGibson
06/07/2004, 02:37 PM
Thank you. RGibson
Habib
06/07/2004, 02:48 PM
Did any of you get a slight sea-sick feeling seeing it in person?
Roger and I did comfort all the girls at the show which did get sea-sick. ;)
Seriously,
From what I have seen at the show (the world largest pet show) the wavebox was IME the only true innovation and truely an eye-catcher (well besides Roger). :)
rvitko
06/08/2004, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Habib
Roger and I did comfort all the girls at the show which did get sea-sick. ;)
I wish!
RGibson
06/08/2004, 12:53 PM
Habib can i used a bag on your phosphate killer? RGibson
Habib
06/09/2004, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by RGibson
Habib can i used a bag on your phosphate killer? RGibson
You sure can as long as the mesh size is good enough to hold the particles.
HTH
Cody Ray
06/09/2004, 10:00 PM
Hey rvitko, I don't remember if this question was already asked, probably, but will the wavebox work on cube shaped or square aquariums as long as they have a wideth of 4 feet? Would it work on a tank that measured 48"x48"x24"?
Trickman2
06/09/2004, 11:11 PM
Looks cool but What does the actually unit look like? How big is it? Also whats are the insides like. Give us the Rundown Beavis Please. When are you releasing these for sale? Whats the Patent # if you have one?
melev
06/10/2004, 03:13 AM
Roger, I really think you need to send someone out to MACNA to display this gizmo along with a couple of streams, so we can see it in action. IMAC, MACNA, and OMC have got to be important when it comes to selling Tunze products, right?
If you just pay an employee to guard the toys and hand out printed flyers, you're doing a service to the hobby and getting the word out. To simply not make an appearance because of your obligations in Germany seems like a huge mistake.
I've gotta see this in person! Or I may just head down to Austin. :D
rvitko
06/10/2004, 07:07 AM
Melev, we will see. They are out of booths now as I understand it so I couldn't change plans if I wanted too. If one of my vendors will have a tank there I will try to work something out with them. They should be available by that time so likely they will be part of discussion. I am just trade showed out, in the past 6 months I have done 3 of thse shows and when you are standing at a booth all day after stressing for a week about set up they get old real fast.
Trickman 2 - The patent applies to the basic prinicpal of using resonance to generate flow. I don't have the patent number but it is patented and from what I understand locked down air tight. If you go back through this thread it has all been discussed already. The box is a standard comline box measuring about 4.5" square by 11" tall.
FLCL787!- It will work, actually the final production version should work on anything bigger than 30". The unit I was sent had an earlier prototype controller and couldn't be pulsed fast enough for anything shorter than four feet.
Trickman2
06/10/2004, 12:49 PM
Roger I was only asking for the patent number because I wanted to understand how it works.
rvitko
06/10/2004, 12:53 PM
OK, basically inside is a specially modified stream, it is an electronic stream somewhere between models 6100 and 6200 in power and with a special reinforcing and sound dampening structure. This is placed inside a 2L box. The wavebox controller pulses the pump at a speed anywhere between .25 and 1.5seconds. The box empties and fills as the pump turns on and off. Using the principal of resonance as the water pulses bounce off the wall and return if the frequency is just right they build on one another to produce waves.
Cody Ray
06/10/2004, 01:28 PM
That is so cool, reminds me of how me and my friends would jump up and down inside my pool and cause half the water to go shooting out the other side!!! Of course, the pool broke open on one end afterward and flooded the entire back yard! After seeing that, I can see why some people are worried about putting the wavebox inside their aquariums!
Trickman2
06/10/2004, 01:47 PM
Nice sounds awesome. Too bad they are going to cost so much. If they where around 250 I would have to get one. :)
skeets
06/10/2004, 03:23 PM
can we get over the price issues already? Lol...
Trickman2
06/10/2004, 03:39 PM
NO
melev
06/10/2004, 05:13 PM
Roger, where does the water exit? Out some holes along the base? Just wondering if those pulses would displace a DSB directly beneath it?
minimasterflash
06/10/2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by rvitko
OK, basically inside is a specially modified stream, it is an electronic stream somewhere between models 6100 and 6200 in power and with a special reinforcing and sound dampening structure. This is placed inside a 2L box. The wavebox controller pulses the pump at a speed anywhere between .25 and 1.5seconds. The box empties and fills as the pump turns on and off. Using the principal of resonance as the water pulses bounce off the wall and return if the frequency is just right they build on one another to produce waves.
This sounds like a fluid analogy to a Bose "Wave" speaker box, or more specifically a band-pass subwoofer box. Where the "speaker" in the Tunze invention is the stream pump.
If Tunze has a patent on that in America, I cannot find it listed as filed or accepted at the USPTO site.
rvitko
06/10/2004, 06:45 PM
Marc it exits the front of the box, it should cause a dune formation over time with fine sand.
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