Interest in doubling the growth rate of corals?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm trying to gauge commercial interest in a potential new product.

This product would be something that you add to a reef aquarium, frag grow out tank, or coral farm. Suppose for this poll that it doubled (or more) the growth rate of the hard corals in your aquarium (especially SPS). Also suppose that it doubles the growth rate of coralline algae, but does not impact the growth rate of noncalcifying organisms (like green algae, diatoms, etc).

It would be a discrete organic molecule that worked by a mechanism of action identified on the bottle. It would not be a concoction of different organic or inorganic compounds, and it is not a food.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Alright.... I feel like a noob again. What's up, Randy?:D

[SeanT]

Seriously, if such a product is/will be available, what possible detrimental effects would/could it have on other organisms in the reef?
And what time frame for availability?

Thanks,
Sean

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's not ready for prime time yet. I just want to gauge if it is worth pursuing. :D

[Old Yeller Tang]

At the rate that my corals are growing, I would love to them a boost!

[SeanT]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
I just want to gauge if it is worth pursuing. :D
On a global scale...no.
In our hobby...hell yeah!!!


Did you suddenly have an epipheny on something that may work or have you been pondering thi for awhile now?

[3_high_low]

Show me a reefer that wouldn't and I'll show you a liar:D.

Growth = $

[SeanT]

Originally posted by 3_high_low
Show me a reefer that wouldn't and I'll show you a liar:D.

Growth = $
I can email you a list of about 50 companies that wouldn't want to see this.

To them... growth = (-)$

[3_high_low]

Originally posted by SeanT
I can email you a list of about 50 companies that wouldn't want to see this.

To them... growth = (-)$

Who Sean? NoticeI said "reefer". By that I mean aquarist.

[SeanT]

I realize that.
I was commenting that vendors would not like to see this. ;)

[MiddletonMark]

It would very radically affect aquaculture, esp in the states .... which to me would/could radically alter the hobby in a good way.

If you can make it more feasible to grow and sell SPS by aquarists ... that would be a huge benefit to the hobby, hopefully reducing collection of at least some species. :thumbsup:

[justgettinstarted]

i am guessing this substance would basically turn the calcification gene on and into overdrive? Or block the transduction pathway that tells the photosynthetic cells when they have had enough light and its time to turn off???

Randy you want to give everyone's corals on steroids? LOL...

i personaly dont see a problem, as long as use of the product doesnt lead to genetic problems with the coral down the line after extended use.

Just a guess... Because you specification that it had no inorganic components leads me to believe that it is not a fertalizer, at least in the classical sence of the word

[hwynboy]

That is soooo not nice Randy :p

This is worse than that woman I was dating when we went to a drive in movie...bah nevermind this is a family board :D
Give it up! we are ready for it.

[rleechb]

oh cmon randy! it's been done already! I believe there are several marc weiss products that do that! :D

[szwab]

depends.....
does 2x growth = weaker branches that are brittle

[JoeMack]

Originally posted by rleechb
oh cmon randy! it's been done already! I believe there are several marc weiss products that do that! :D

Heh! I'm actually a spectra vital user. Came free with the tank.

Randy, Sounds like one heck of a product. How long do you think it would take to get into the testing of this product? Months, years, or who knows? Keep us informed if you decide to pursue

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

It should not take too long to see if, in fact, it is safe enough for a reef aquarium (as opposed to a frag tank with many fewer organisms to worry about), that it does, in fact, increase calcification and growth rates, and whether there are undesirable effects (like the brittle branches mentioned above).

I'd be quite happy to describe it in detail, and eventually will (even if it fails), but I'm still undecided on whether it is worth patenting, and so do not want to say anything specific about it yet.

[Energy]

Tease!;)

[edsreef]

Didn't have the option to vote this way, but I'd have to say "Definately Maybe" in my case. I'm growing out lotsa frags in my main tank that will eventually become my centerpieces. I'd want to know HOW they grew (ie; how they looked; formed differently) from time-lapsed photos of people who've tried it. I wouldn't want to try it if it caused the growth to appear "freakish" or unnatural or had long-term side effects.

[Trumpet12]

It sounds very interesting to me. :)

[MiddletonMark]

Even if just for frag setups, you could help a lot of us out :D
I'd like to think I can reasonably pay my bills via frags other than softies. But SPS growout time is mightly slow ... meaning expensive.

[mhurley]

I gotta hear what this one is...I hate snake oil and "magic fairy dust" additives...but trust Randy wholeheartedly so this should be interesting.

[Masoch]

Patents are always worth getting!

At least, that's what my wife tells her clients :D

FWIW, I'd try it out. I mean, I'm willing to pour a liquid with a pH of 12 into my tank.

I wonder what Chemical X would do to other critters that use calcium, like snails 'n' clams ...

Good luck!

[sahin]

I wouldnt mind it at all. In fact I think it would really help the environment in terms of less corals collected perhaps (if the product took off in a big way). I mean more poeple would buy frags if growth can be achieved at a faster rate. Even if it didnt double the growth rate, as long as it helps push the growth rate for a given setup, I would be more than willing to buy it.

I say go for it Randy. Just dont sell the product/idea to D£LT£C. ;)

[Habib]

Randy:

:thumbsup:

Sounds interesting. :)

I did not vote because the "if" did not cover my first thoughts.

I'm pretty sure that if it is something novel, works and is safe without side effects on the long term it should be considered to be patented or at least the ingredients kept secret and be masked. :)

There are too many copycats in this business. :(

[Dz99ls]

would be well worth it of course if it were safe

[newty]

i would like to see some rigourous testing though. a lot of products that promote rapid growth are actually detrimental to the overall health and well-being of many organisms. for example, steriods in body builders. they may add on large muscle masses, but he muscle fibres themselves are not as dense as they normally are. as such, the muscles themselves are weaker and can easily be teared. also, you have the secondary physiological effects due to the metabolic breakdown of steriods. i can see how altering a gene to increase its calcium consumption or whatnot can lead to elevated rates of growth, but i would suspect that changes in gene expression would lead to mutations (as mentioned above), dysfuntional metabolism, and (aslo mentioned above) overall growth and long-term development is significantly affected. that saying, there are actually quite a few products out there that would work well, especially for plants. i do not know enough about corals, but if it affects the symbiotic relationship as seen in many corals, then it could have either a positive or negative effect.

in the sense that you are contemplating whether or not that this product is worth the time to patent, i would go ahead. even if this product has been demonstrated to have a low benefits:cost ratio, the basic premise is still there and whoever improves on this would have to pay royalties to you.

just my 2 cents.

[justgettinstarted]

patent everything! lol

Thats a rule my boss learned the hardway... He came up with a synthesis of a drug that is comercially sold as the racemic compound... he made it as purely 1 isomer which was only shown to be 15% more effective so he didnt think it was very important... about 8 months later another company came up with the same thing he did, and if i remember right it was Astra Zenica or Glaxo bought the patent from them for $5,000,000 because they were worried about the competition. hmmmm my boss still gets a little ****y about that one! LOL

[Typhon]

Randy.. I am highly interested!!!

Can't wait for more information!!!

[Dlckwood]

Sounds like a great idea to me, go for it!
DLCKWOOD

[invincible569]

If you're going as far as patenting, I would not give out the ingredients either. If Coca-Cola can keep their secret this long.. then you can too! ;)

Just call it The RHF Secret.

[ssheipel]

Gee, should I hold off on buying a calcium reactor :)

[nanocat]

I can see the hundreds of posts now.......

"Gotta get some Randy's Juice, it rocks" :lol:

"Yeah, but nobody knows what's in it?"

"Who cares, it works" :D

"My snail died the day after I used it"

"I poured it directly on my snails, and they doubled their shells"

Can't wait Randy. Better growth would be very welcome.

[Fantasy Reefer]

Count me in.

[flaunt]

I voted I would use it if it were safe... But I'd be more likely to use it if it didn't cost an arm and a leg :)

[vgibbens]

If it doubles the calcification, imagaine how much kalk you'd have to use daily to keep up demand. Better turn up those reactors too.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, you will need more calcium and alkalinity to keep up, assuming that it works. :)

[prafferty]

Audrey II from Little Shop of Horrors :thumbsup:

[Scleractinian]

Wait 'til he's got the rights secured and starts asking for volunteers to beta it...



Can you say "Stampede"?

:)

[A Reef Scene]

It sounds great, but then everone with a reef tank would or could be a frag farmer, Is this a good thing or a bad thing, olny time will tell.

[John Brancheau]

Will it come in a little blue pill like the last great growth enhancer??

Sorry, couldn't resist.......

[Doppler]

I'll beta test it for you:D

[64Ivy]

Originally posted by Doppler
I'll beta test it for you:D
Us too!

Signed,
Barry Bonds
Sammy Sosa
Jason Giambi
Marion Jones
&
Ninety Nine Percent of WWE Professional Wrestlers

[Agu]

Randy,

I have two nano tanks, at this time there's no interest on my part to have my corals outgrow the tanks;) .

If I had larger tanks my concern would be that health and vigor would be compromised by accelerated growth rates.

fwiw,jmo,

Agu

[Doppler]

64Ivy..LMAO

[DJ88©]

Originally posted by Scleractinian
Wait 'til he's got the rights secured and starts asking for volunteers to beta it...



Can you say "Stampede"?

:)

RC Staff to the head of the line. ;) :p

[carpetride]

sounds interesting

[roricaja]

As long as the LFS doesnt get their hands on it

[kfisc]

I'd be glad to beta-test as well; I'd also be glad to be considered when you start selling shares!

[rahre1]

Where do I sign?

[Sloeber]

will it also kill aiptasia? :p

[flaunt]

Originally posted by A Reef Scene
It sounds great, but then everone with a reef tank would or could be a frag farmer, Is this a good thing or a bad thing, olny time will tell.

How could that be a bad thing? More corals = more trading = more awesome corals for you and me! The only people who wouldn't like that are those who have made a business out of selling corals that are low in supply ;)

[musicsmaker]

If it were safe, yadda yadda. I'd also want to know if it affected coloration (makes the corals brown). If yes, you will have a hard time selling it in the USA. Germany might be a different story. It is my understanding that they are more geared towards good growth rates over there.

[musicsmaker]

PS ~ Patent it for sure.

[Tom Berry]

Renagel for Reefs? :D

Sounds great, I'd use it.

Tom Berry:fish2:

[pi]

Though I am sure it would be accepted into the aquaculture industry with open arms, as a hobbyist I do not want to see my growth rates increase beyond my ability to export.

High growth rates does not equal successful reef (IMO).

[JB NY]

For most of my corals in my main tank I would say no. I've already got many SPS that grow too fast for me to prune and am rapidly running out of room in the tank. In a frag tank where I could target some slow growing corals, I think this would be a great help

[gregt]

I guess my question is why would someone want to use this product in their reef tank? In a healthy display tank the problem is usually territorial disputes from too much growth.

My concern is that this product might be ignorantly used as a panacea to fix other problems that are limiting normal growth instead of fixing the real problems. I guess it's my opinion that the last thing we need on the market is another "magic potion" to make a reef tank work.

Use in a frag or growout tank is obviously a different story.

Just my opinion.

[fuzed]

yes yes yes yes yes
and
patent patent patent patent

randy if this does go ahead please make sure its available to us reefers outside of the US. :D

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I guess my question is why would someone want to use this product in their reef tank? In a healthy display tank the problem is usually territorial disputes from too much growth.

That is an important question, and is why I worded the poll the way I did. I wouldn't want things in my main tank to grow faster, but my tank is full at present. A new aquarium is a different situation, however.

FWIW, the hurdle to make something 'safe' for a reef aquarium is far more difficult than to make it safe for a frag tank, since there are a huge variety of different organisms with different sensitivities to compounds to worry about in a reef aquarium that are not present in a frag tank. Regardless of what I or others might want, it is possible that only the frag tank scenario will be viable.

FWIW, there would be nothing magic about this compound. :D

[gregt]

FWIW, there would be nothing magic about this compound.

Don't take my post wrong Randy. The "magic" I was referring to would be the assumption on the part of the purchaser that it would be a panacea for problems in a reef tank. I don't mean to imply anything about the product, but rather about the likely (IMO) attitude of potential purchasers to think that the product will do magical things to fix other problems in their tank.

[Konadog]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
FWIW, there would be nothing magic about this compound. :D Awwww, and I was hoping for pods the size of crickets. Just think how big your mandarins would get :eek1:
Greg, I agree that to many people are looking for a solution in a bottle to fix most problems, but think also how quick your frags would start to encrust if this was used just after mounting.

[SPC]

I wouldn't be interested in this product for my main tank, Randy, but think it would be great for those who are culturing corals for sale or trade.

Steve

[gregt]

Originally posted by Konadog
Awwww, and I was hoping for pods the size of crickets. Just think how big your mandarins would get :eek1:
Greg, I agree that to many people are looking for a solution in a bottle to fix most problems, but think also how quick your frags would start to encrust if this was used just after mounting.

hmmm. I guess I'm more patient than most. This happens pretty fast naturally, IMO....but I can see the attraction.

[MiddletonMark]

I would think one could have a wise-ly written info with the product

`This will only work if conditions are already ideal, and may stress or kill weakened corals or those in improper water conditions.' Or something to say ... if you have Cyano and HA overtaking your tank, this ain't gonna work / work-right. That this only works to increase healthy coral growth ... but I'd think this point could be made.

But I don't think many here are thinking it's a panacea, going to fix crummy husbandry. I just see a lot of people with a frag tank in the basement, wishing they could make it pay for it's expenses at least.

That's not in the least to say that gregt didn't bring up a vital point. But if just for frag-systems ... it would do a lot to make smaller-scale SPS culturing feasible ... and I wonder about using it to cultivate more easily fragged LPS [branching euphyllia, for one]. If we could grow those faster for aquaculture, ... oh man :D

[Mandoman]

Reef Viagra.

Go for it. Let each reefer decide on its use...

[blgreef]

Yes i would use to speed up growth on a new tank, even if it turned the corals brown.

it would be possible to get the display looking stocked and then ease off the product and let the corals color back up.

Sounds good.

[coralsandbar]

Is it a device or an actual chemical compound?

thx.

Rob

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is it a device or an actual chemical compound?

It is a chemical.

[gregt]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Is it a device or an actual chemical compound?

It is a chemical.

Too bad. The big money is in crappy devices that break with little use and must be replaced. ;) Actually, the real money is in services you can charge for on a monthly basis.

I think you should make a dosing device for this and then also have a service where someone will come and repair and refill the device every month. Then you'll be rolling in the dough. ;)

Any ETA on how long before this "hits the market"? Looking for any beta testers?

[coralsandbar]

thanks Gregt.

Rob

[photobarry]

Originally posted by musicsmaker
I'd also want to know if it affected coloration (makes the corals brown). If yes, you will have a hard time selling it in the USA.

Brown coral coloration comes from an excess level of nutrients in the water. As long as this isn't N&P in a bottle, that shouldn't be a problem.

BTW, I have an idea about what the product might be and/or do. But I could be wrong. If it affects what I think it does then I can't think of any negative impacts.

[magnum420]

Sounds interesting Randy... I'm one of those people that doesnt mind lots of growth. I wouldnt mind seeing better growth in both frag tanks and my display tanks. I wouldnt mind the extra pruning it would create in my main tank. I much prefer to see my corals grow like mad so I can trade them when the time comes. I can see where it might be a problem for people that have completely full tanks, but I bet there is a small % of reefkeepers that have completely full tanks. It would be great for the people that are starting out.

If you need a someone to test it out(discretly) in either frag or display tanks, just let me know. I understand the risks involved.

Good luck! Sounds very interesting!
Keep us posted!
magnum420

[sahin]

Randy, I am hoping that you actually decide to retail the chemical/product. If you decide not to, for whatever reason, will you release details of it to the reefing community as a whole?

[SteveMH]

I wouldn't use it in my display tank. It kinda takes the hobby out of it for me. For the frag tanks, maybe. I would at least take a look at it.

[ghost]

i have seen some bizare drugs out there, military drugs that cure 2x as fast, but as far as this chemical goes, it sounds beneficial for frag growers to help reduce over collection on the reefs and bring the price down so its more affordable to have an sps collection. the problem i see is although price of frags go down, you would need to compensate for the nutrients being used for the organisms. as far as long term use goes, the negative side effects come along with this also. what would happen when one stops using this chemical? don't get me wrong, i am all about faster growth rate for my frags. imagine the price of the oregan blue tort and purple monster bottoming out!

[Jimbo327]

Is this compound available in the ocean? I would love to see how it will work in the ocean, with the rapid rate of the reefs decline after global warming spikes...it would be a breakthrough and scientific contribution to help the real reefs make a faster recovery.

Now that would be something!

As for the poll, I'll use this product because my main tank looks like a frag tank anyways. I think anyone that says they don't want to double growth rate on their prized SPS is crazy.

Jim

[Electrobes]

I am not sure if I would use it based on the grounds that we strive to keep our aquariums as duplicated to nature as possible. I mean if the organisms haven't already developed that manner of growth, I would fear the detrimental effects, especially long term ones. Granted we already manipulate some aspects fopr better growth, like different lighting, higher calcium, etc which are fairly minor changes, but anything that would simply boost growth to two times the normal rate for any coral (lets say the normal growth rate in the ocean) would make me seriously wonder not at the begining effects but definately in the long term. This may sound funny but I would worry about addiction. For instance from what I have been told and what I read companies that supply seeds and fertilizers to farmers also supply everyhting else, and should the farmer not want to pay the higher prices on genetically changed seeds are basically screwed, for nothing else will grow if the seeds are changed. I would worry that once this item you want to pursue is made, and then taken into the household aquarium, etc... then frags are sold to other non-users of your product.. what would happen to the coral afterward???

Just a thought....

[coralsandbar]

As far as sps go, if calcification increases to great the branches become brittle almost too brittle such as in that study that used an electric grid to help the corals precipitate the calcium out of the water faster.

A chemical since as this that helps in a similar fashion would probably have to be used on an alternating basis. One month on, one month off etc.

[carpetride]

Originally posted by Electrobes
This may sound funny but I would worry about addiction. For instance from what I have been told and what I read companies that supply seeds and fertilizers to farmers also supply everyhting else, and should the farmer not want to pay the higher prices on genetically changed seeds are basically screwed, for nothing else will grow if the seeds are changed.
Just a thought....

As a farmer I would say that you have been supplied some mis-information or only partial truths. Now back to the thread...

[allenreef2]

I have an extra reef/frag tang that would not kill me if it crashed, so count me in on the beta teser list :)

[coralsandbar]

I'd definitely be interested to be a beta tester as well. I've got room to experiment with .

Rob

[JOSHUAB]

so what your sayin', it's like Miracle-Grow, just for corals, that would be awesome, everthing should get cheaper then as far as Frags and availability of SPS goes.

[twLoaf]

I'd use it only if I knew that, when I stopped dosing it, the accelerated growth stopped too, and relatively quickly.

To continue with the 20 Questions: would it work on clams?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd use it only if I knew that, when I stopped dosing it, the accelerated growth stopped too, and relatively quickly.

You have visions of them growing out of the water, taking over the living room? :lol:

Don't know about clams, but possibly.

[Scleractinian]

I think all of you prospective beta-testers whould get in lonie behind the person who suggested such a thing...

:D

On second thought... I'll volunteer to try it after a few others have. ;)

[MiddletonMark]

I'm starting to think you're not a chemist, Randy. That there's a psychologist with a really intriguing study behind that molecule icon ;)

[joefish]

I didn't vote because ,
I would use it in my main tank to get my frags into a full out reef look .
Untill there is enough testing without tank crashes or other side effcts , NO!!!!!
By the time testing and any proof is shown , My tank should be where I want it anyway .:D



So no vote for Me.................

[twLoaf]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
You have visions of them growing out of the water, taking over the living room?

Not quite those visions, although that could make the hobby a bit more challenging.

I only meant that I would prefer something that had a short half-like over one that accumulated in a system and took weeks/months to wash out...especially for those of us who don't keep up on their water changes...

[musicsmaker]

Originally posted by photobarry
Brown coral coloration comes from an excess level of nutrients in the water. As long as this isn't N&P in a bottle, that shouldn't be a problem.

BTW, I have an idea about what the product might be and/or do. But I could be wrong. If it affects what I think it does then I can't think of any negative impacts. Cool. I don't know the exact mechanics that cause corals to brown in nutrient rich water. I was thinking that they could respond in similar fashion to whatever this foreign compound is. I hope you're right.

PS ~ I can only guess as to how this might affect corals. Care to enlighten me in a PM? :)

[suver569]

Man, cant think of to many people that wouldnt want to have there tanks grow like crazy. The hardest part for me is the long growth rate of some corals. Doubling the speed of SPS especially would be wonderful.

[kozmo02]

if you made it, and it had guaranteed results, i would buy it for sure.

[Isayso]

Randy I believe that you can do it......
I did use your alkalinity /Calcium mix ( dowflakes)
and its working wonderfully.....
I will use the chemical in my tank,. but only after the tests.......
the thing is that its not common to put chemicals in the tank...unless they are already in the sea water in a small percentage. then ....MAybe...

[jdieck]

For aquariums I will use it for growing frags only as the main tank gets crowded very quickly, but I think the implications will be all positive:

a) for coral farmers will be two fold, higher productivity and profitability.

b) for collectors in the wild better productivity with less environmental impact

c) For the ecologists, better chance on improving reef related damage

d) for the scientific community, ability to increase availability of specimens and raw material for medical research and helth compounds

e) For the aquarium community, more specimen variaty availability including those already listed as endangered.

Overall if it can be made (and patented of course) it will be a great addition not only for the hobby but for helping nature in re-developing. For the developer $$$$

Need a partner Randy?

[Jive Turkey]

I hope it works out. Mainly for the benefit to aquaculture and the availablitity of frags.

Good luck.

[coyoteseven]

... ... and if it cures male pattern baldness, I definitely want some! :lmao:

After reading this thread and noting all the research Randy is putting into this, I would buy a package/bottle/tube/doohickey in a heartbeat. :thumbsup:

[Electrobes]

Carpetride, yes I may have been a little mis informed about farming seed as I am not a farmer, but I was applying it as an analogy of what I would be worried about in Randy's solution.

Just like any type of stress, if a frag were accustomed to functioning normally (like in nature), then was given something to do double of what is normally function at, then was put in an environment where whatever caused it to do double was absent, it would seem normal for the frag to stress like a mofo, and who knows at what point, possibly death, disease, etc.

So if coral farmers were to use this, then sell it on the market to those who do not use this product... that would stink. I would test in longevity these corals after given the growth enhancer for a couple months and then let it sit in a normal tank with the average parameters and see what happens.

[Krusk]

Reagra, sticks enhancer :D Yes, I think this product would bring more benefits then harms.

any ETA for beta testers?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm trying to determine how to best proceed to test it for safety and efficacy, so I don't really have any timetables in mind yet. :)

[musicsmaker]

Just send some to me. I'll set up an experimental tank just for it. If nothing dies we know it didn't kill anything.

[Sloth]

Didn't read the whole post yet, but would halmedia be similarly affected by the chemical? That might make a cheap test subject.

*shrug*

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

but would halmedia be similarly affected by the chemical?

Thanks. I do not know what calcifying organisms are most likely to be effected. It was developed based on how corals calcify, but it might work on other organisms (or not).

[benj2112]

Sounds like a very interesting product.

I don't know if I can do this, but can I put this on a different message board and see what people say?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't mind where it gets posted, but remember that I'm not yet claiming that it works and is safe. :)

[benj2112]

Thanks! I will make that very clear.

[MiddletonMark]

And they need to wait in line here behind all of us to be `beta-testers'. Or so I hope, I've got a frag tank just looking for this sort of experiment :)

[Florida Reefer]

I'd be interested in it for a grow out tank for frags. I don't think I would put it in my main tank though. Actually at times I wish there was something to slow the growth in the main tank to keep things from crowding each other.

[Doppler]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
And they need to wait in line here behind all of us to be `beta-testers'. Or so I hope, I've got a frag tank just looking for this sort of experiment :)

I wanna be the Master-Beta :eek:

[coralsandbar]

Lol!

[sahin]

Originally posted by Doppler
I wanna be the Master-Beta :eek:

:lol:

[cmiannay]

Randy,

As a fairly new reefer, these are my thoughts:

1.) Personally, I would not want my corals to grow faster in my show tank. Half of the fun of our tank is buying things small, and watching them grow. If you accelerate the growth, then my time of "fun" is shortened because a full, finished look is achieved faster. I am usually the one who wants things to happen fast, but not in this case.

2.) On the other hand, when we get to the point of fragging corals to make available for others (either selling or giving away), this would be a great product to use in a separate tank.

3.) Also, due to the increased productivity of home-grown corals, I can see where it would have a very positive impact on the rate of destruction of the natural reefs around the world.

So my final vote would be to say "Go for it!" :D

Cathy

[my2girls]

Randy, I'll buy the first bottle. If it can grow corals, can it re-grow my hair?

[john f]

I for sure want it!!!!!!!!!


To those people who want slower growing corals.......Kudos..........and get a bigger tank!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just put a few frags into my 1000 and let me tell you.....fast growth or not, it's gonna take a few YEARS before they look like much.


John

[Frick-n-Frags]

I actually wouldn't mind more fragile, less dense skeletons, especially on Acros. That would be great if Acros broke like Montis.
Fragging hefty Acros flat out sucks.

Then again, maybe Montis would just fall apart :D

[culdublvd]

Sounds like it would be great. Kinda like fulvic or humic acids on Tomatoe plants.

BTW fulvic and humic acids are supposed to help plants in nutrient uptake. Kinda like Randy's magic product does with corals and calcium and alkh.

[Nolan]

Randy I'm in for sure.

YES! Pursue this for those of us who cannot and you may turn the hobby upside down...Change the industry forever? We could develop a species list reping those corals that are common and collect only those that are new and stop waisting wild specimens once and for all! How would this product work to help rejuvinate the depleted reefs of the world? Too many positive potentials to not pursue this.

Go Bro!

[alanseah]

if it work and safe I dont mind paying for it and ask for shipping over to Asia...

[jaefei]

I will buy for me and all of my friends in my country ?
when you launch it,Randy ????
I wait your PM.

[carpetride]

any updates?

[skireef]

What would be really interesting would be if the "Randy's Lavetra" (I thing that is the growth one) could be targeted to a specific coral or area in the tank, sort of like food. I suspect that as a "chemical" additive, it will just mix in the water column.

[PRC]

I think this would be great to get a new reef tank started and could be of huge benefit to the aquaculture industry. Anything that would reduce the cost of getting frags to salable sizes I'm sure would be a major hit in the business. It would also reduce the necessity to take corals from wild reefs, another major benefit.
I personally would have no problem with doubling growth rates in my show tank since I put everything in as frags and shortening the time it takes for them to get to "show" size from a year or more to six months would certainly not detract from the pleasure of getting to watch them grow. It's not as if I'd come home one night and find a fully matured tank from what was frags that morning. Once the tank is matured then it would obviously be a different story. But then there's always another tank, right...?

[easttn]

So your suggesting that coral are not primarily autotrophic (can produce 100% of its nutritional requirement independently), but rather there is a large untapped possibility of them to recieve energy from non-symbiotic sources, other than light?

Coral are efficient predators capable of capturing and consuming primarily zooplankton prey. Is there a possibility of a greater food source?

You are hinting at the answer to a puzzle (I hope) that has bothered me for a while. If the calcification rate of corals is enhanced by the photosynthetic activity of zooxanthellae, why does the white tip of stony corals (which lack zooxanthellae) grow so quickly? The only answer I can come up with is ATP (ATP is a basic fuel of cellular metabolism), yes? The high concentration of ATP in these white tips provids the coral polyps the vitality to maintain the energy output required to sustain high calcification rates in the absence of photosynthetic activity. The issue is getting the "product" distributed throughout the colony, and not just the tips. If this is in the ballpark, how would the the coral's zooxanthellae chase the tip?

If the above is true, have you been able to determine the active transport mechanisms for movement of products from one polyp to another in our cnidarians?

I'm just guessing Randy, hope to see the results of your tests whichever way it goes.

[newty]

easttn,

in that sense, perhaps he constructed a molecule, compound, synthesized a protein that would go around this inhibition, speed up cellular proliferation, increase regenerative rates, etc. there are a lot of methods, at the molecular scale, to modify genetic development and normal physiology. are you saying that there is a resevour of ATP in the tips? and this product would enhance growth by influencing ATP metabolism? that means that you would need increased energy production (more ATP production), but as you said, to make more ATP it means that corals must intake an alternative energy source. it could very well be that the role of ATP is paramount here, but i have a hard time believing that. however, i know nothing about corals, their development and such (my knowledge base is primarily on molecular factors of mice and salamander development).

i am interested in this hypothesis, and think that it would be a nice experiment to carry out. it may even be publishable in a scientific journal!

newty.

[easttn]

Originally posted by newty
easttn,

are you saying that there is a resevour of ATP in the tips? and this product would enhance growth by influencing ATP metabolism?


I'm only asking.

Originally posted by newty

however, i know nothing about corals, their development and such


Me either.

Originally posted by newty

i am interested in this hypothesis, and think that it would be a nice experiment to carry out. it may even be publishable in a scientific journal!

newty.

Published and patented if Randy"s on the mark.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

any updates?

No, I've been on vacation the past 2 1/2 weeks. :)

Lots of interesting speculation to read, however. :D

[Isayso]

are we there Yet???????

[Reddhaus]

Put me in for the "I will take a couple of gallons as long as it is proven safe and I don't have to remortgage my house to afford it" vote.

:D

[Reddhaus]

Put me in for the "I will take a couple of gallons as long as it is proven safe and I don't have to remortgage my house to afford it" vote.

:D

[Reddhaus]

Sorry about the double post...................I'm dumb..............:rollface:

[Sting]

This is a dumb question- if it will double the growth rates of my corals OF COURSE I would use it! DUH! How could anyone pass up such an opportunity!?

You'd be rollin in the BIG dough, it's a no-brainer! Do it!!! Hey, and even if "serious reefers" avoid it for stuck up, pretentious reasons, you'd appeal to the huge market of amateur reefers who'll do anything to keep their xenia alive for more than 4 days. This product would SELL, and if it is safe, and works like you say it would, there is no reaosn on the face of the earth not to patent it!

[invincible569]

I already know the secret! yea!

[alanseah]

what is the secret..??

[joefish]

Originally posted by alanseah
what is the secret..??

If he tells you , he will have to kill you .......:uzi:

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It will take a fair amount of time to test if it works and to see if it is safe, so don't expect anything for a while yet, even if it does work. :)

[bigzman]

Randy,

I really hope you have this magic solution. This hobby needs to move away from the Marc weiss world and the kent stuff. Also as you know rember to have prof to back it up. You know how harsh people can be on RC if you can't prove it. I would take your word for it. If you need a test subject I am willing on my 90 SPS/LPS.

Regards,
Zuriel

[scubadude]

Randy,
I think its a good idea, and I dont need/want you to spill your secret, however jump down to an average hobbyist mentallity for a second and think if you explained how it worked to the average hobbyist would they understand. My point is that if I cannot understand what it is doing to my tanks I really dont want to put it in my system.

Henry Ford once do not try and sell me something I can add onto my cars to make them run better. Show me something I can take away from my cars to make them run better :D

[Mr_Quality]

Originally posted by SeanT
I realize that.
I was commenting that vendors would not like to see this. ;)

That would be a short-sighted vendor. Any hobbyist who has good success will be more likely to buy more.

Succesful customers = +$

Randy,

Any product that has only upside with no deleterious side effects would be highly desirable. Your poll results indicate that is true.
"I would use it in my main reef tank if it were safe." gets overwhelming support.

As a pharm guy, I'm sure you know that everything has its desired response and some undesired responses. The objective is to make the benefits of the desired response outweigh the consequences or risks of the undesired responses.

A good question/statement might have been

"I would use it in my main reef tank if...

...it slowed soft coral growth
or
...it was harmful to moluscs.
or
...I had to increase flow.

etc.

Of course, not knowing anything about your additive, I am only guessing as to what the undesired affects might actually be. Those are only examples.

But you sure have got my attention!!!!!:mixed:

[Chris Lakies]

Randy,

Hell Yeah I would use it! That is of course it were safe for the rest of the critters....Clams, fish etc. Go for it. A product like this would be an easy sell!;)

[Valab]

Did any1 already ask whether the compound would be removed by skimmers? carbon?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd rather not answer questions like that that right now that might give clues to what the compound is and how it might be administered.

Whatever happens going forward, I'll certainly let people know what the reasoning is in detail so that others might pursue (or scoff at) the idea.

[musicsmaker]

I don't remember anyone asking that before, and it sounds like a good question to me. I suspect that it will take some testing/development before it can be answered.

Randy?

EDIT ~ Randy cut me to the chase! :p

[Jamesurq]

Randy - not sure if it was mentioned, I skated through.

Any potential rammifications of the excess entering the wastewater systems?

IE - Mutant rats in the sewers?

[Genetics]

Sounds great! The fact that you don't want to give it away yet means either its already developed and you are finding a new use for it OR its something simple.... Like some chemical that allows one to boost calcium lvls above normal sea water without precipitation? Like calcitonin in sarcolemmas. I'm going to work and taking home all sorts of chemicals and adding them to my tank tonight.

Will it have any effect on the color of the coral? B/c I think it would be great to use to use in new setups to get a more established look then waiting a year.

[tcarlson]

Patent Question:

If you patent the product you will be the only one that could sell it to hobbiest. It seems like major coral farms would be a very big part of your market. What would stop major coral farms from manufacturing it themselves for there own use?

Ethical question:

We all know that there are many unethical people in this business. What would happen if some of the coral farms in other countries near the reefs with semi-open systems start using this product and it is leaked into the ocean from their systems?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are many complicated questions that go into whether to patent something, and I have not yet decided whether to file a provisional application in the US. One option is to just write a few articles detailing the idea and any testing, and let folks do what they will with it.

On patents, the questions to consider are:

Would it be granted or not?

The costs of patenting relative to payback. Costs come from writing it, and then filing it (with or without the assitance of a patent attorney), and then in keeping the patent in force (which the patent office charges for).

If you do have a valid, issued patent, and Joe coral farmer is violating it, is it worth suing him in court to get $75 of missed royalties? Not very likely. Same on up the line to whatever competition springs up. It might never actually be worth it unless there were lots of sales to protect.

The patent will necessarily reveal the structure(s) in exact detail. Perhaps a proprietary formulation coupled with a detailed explanation of how it worked might be more likely to prevent others from selling and/or using it.

[Masoch]

The other thing about patents is that, a patent filed in the US is only valid in the US. Since there are substantial reefing communities in Europe, Canada, Japan and Australia, Randy would have to go through PCT filings, jump through hoops, pledge allegiance to the demons of reefing, and burn through something like $100,000 (at least) to get patents in all the countries that matter.

And, if anyone / any company violated those patents, the cost of launching a lawsuit in a foreign country can be truly staggering.

But ... there are a couple other things to do. Sell the formulation to a company with deep pockets and let them deal with the headaches of manufacturing, distribution, patenting and enforcement. Or make the formulation publicly available for all to enjoy and gain the adoration of generations of reefing fans to come :D

[Jamesurq]

Or just sell it direct to consumer yourself as something completely unrelated and not make ANY claims as to what it does.

No patent problems.
No lawsuits
No middlemen
No "it didn't work as promised" claims.

[tcarlson]

Originally posted by Masoch
Or make the formulation publicly available for all to enjoy and gain the adoration of generations of reefing fans to come :D

At the same time if you leave it to the public you end up putting your name sake behind it. If people misuse the research that you have done and have negative results then there will be countless threads bemoaning it. I think those that put themselves out there to advance this hobby are always walking a fine line between being a god or goat to the masses.

I personally would not use it in a reef tank. With all the varaibles in a reef tank I would not risk it. Also how could you ever determine if it was safe for a reef? One person may Epson Salt to raise Mg and has sulfate ions floating around, another may have impurities from food grade pickling lime in their tank, another uses these "super" products that we don't what is in them.
What about long term exposure to fish?

Figure everything is safe I would still not use it in my tank because I would not want coraline to grow twice as fast. If I had an acrylic tank I know I would scratch it and with a glass tank I would probally ruin the sylicone with a razor blade.

I wish you the best of luck Randy with this decision.

Don't forget option 3 which is pretend this thread never happened.
:D

-Tom-

[Jamesurq]

Originally posted by tcarlson
Don't forget option 3 which is pretend this thread never happened.
:D

-Tom-

Just like the oil companies will never let alternative fuel sources become viable, the billion dollar industry that is coral farming may be knocking on your door soon.

;)

[Scuba_Dave]

Ve ah going to Pump you ahp

[minireef75]

there was a girl who did this to me in high school....

[agiacosa]

Randy,

Patents are typically a waste of time in the aquarium hobby unless anticipated sales will be very high. Even then, patent infringement lawsuits are very costly.

My recommendation is for you to bottle it up and sell it yourself. That is probably the best way to protect your formulation and get it to us quickly.

Good luck.

[Genetics]

How about patenting it in the US and selling it directly? See how it does within this country. If it does double growth I see a large market out there. Also, in the US I think there is a clause where the original discoverer gets dibs on patenting it over someone else. So you might be able to patent in the EU to test markets and then can bring it to the US from there. And maybe I am wrong about this but don't you only have to file 7 patents to cover the business world?

[bigzman]

Why not trade mark the name to prove you were the frist.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If I just publish a paper that would do the same it terms of priority, but that wouldn't stop anyone who chose to from selling it. Still, that is an option to consider.

[3_high_low]

Originally posted by Mr_Quality
That would be a short-sighted vendor. Any hobbyist who has good success will be more likely to buy more.

Succesful customers = +$

Randy,

Any product that has only upside with no deleterious side effects would be highly desirable. Your poll results indicate that is true.
"I would use it in my main reef tank if it were safe." gets overwhelming support.

As a pharm guy, I'm sure you know that everything has its desired response and some undesired responses. The objective is to make the benefits of the desired response outweigh the consequences or risks of the undesired responses.

A good question/statement might have been

"I would use it in my main reef tank if...

...it slowed soft coral growth
or
...it was harmful to moluscs.
or
...I had to increase flow.

etc.

Of course, not knowing anything about your additive, I am only guessing as to what the undesired affects might actually be. Those are only examples.

But you sure have got my attention!!!!!:mixed:

Mike, shoot me an email if you think you know what Randy is up to. lol

[scott324]

I would use it in a heartbeat.....


To the more important question......


Are you looking for investors???? :D :D

[lduncan]

So, any decisions on what you're going to do with this great idea yet Randy? Sounds very interesting.

Layton

[holeinone1972]

Steroids for corals?

I am in.

LOL

[Genetics]

Is this something that you found from work? If so doesn't work hold the patent unless they pass it up first?

If you find a quantity that last about a year for a 55g tank I bet you could sell a bottle every year to every person in the hobby. That has to be close to a million? a yr or more.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No decisions on how to proceed yet. No need for investors. :D

Thanks for the suggestions and comments, folks. :)

[kansas1051]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
There are many complicated questions that go into whether to patent something, and I have not yet decided whether to file a provisional application in the US.

I dont know how familiar you are with US patent prosecution, but I would consult with a patent attorney before filing a provisional utility application as it may limit your ability to file for protection in foreign countries based on somewhat recent changes in PCT practice.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks. I will look closely at the impact of a provisional application and the subsequent deadlines. I've not used provisionals in the past, but they seem to be useful to avoid a lot of high up front costs before knowing if something will be a commercial success. I'm pretty familiar with the old process, and have many US and worldwide patents, but if the rules have changed, I'll be sure to check it out. :)

[jango]

randy does this have anything to do with the italian posts that have been popping up lately,in one posts mentioned that you were in italy,and visited some italian reefers...
it just struck me funny that this poll came up then the italian threads came out in the sps forum and discussion

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, the mechanism and compounds involved are totally different. :)

[Xx_de_xX]

Still very interested...

[Znut Reefer]

Same here! Any updates?

[Mr_Quality]

Careful Randy, no premature disclosures! :eek1:

[Xx_de_xX]

Well, there's 541 total votes for "yes, I'd use it"

You can sell it to me in a mason jar.. I don't care. Some duct tape with "Dr. Randy's mo betta reef growth dispensah" written on it with a sharpie.

[beemer]

You mean I can actually look in my tank and see growth!. Right now I can only tell from pics month to month. Myabe I should stop looking 300 times per day:)
Randy if you need some testers I am in. Go extra tanks and extra frags.
Let me know
Jerod

[sherm71tank]

The company I work for sells a patented tool. Another company started selling it as well. We notified them of the patent violation and they kept right on selling it. It seems that you also have to be able to prove that the person/entity that is violating your patent is costing you money and how much. They were finally stopped from making the tool. I gather that not only is the actual mechanism for accomplishing a given task important but maybe even more important the end result or task accomplished. What I mean is that there may be more than one way accomplish x growth rate increase that is just slightly different than yours. If its possible to patent the end biological process that causes the increased growth regardless of the magical juice used then that would be the way to go I think.

[lduncan]

How could you possible patent a biological process? I suppose there are all sorts of rediculously vague patents, but i don't think it would be possible to patent a biological process. The only way would be to patent the particular molecule for use in a biological process... come to think of it would that even be possible?

Layton

[sherm71tank]

I was refering to the altered process due to the use of "Randy's Magic Juice" which resulted in the increased growth rate. You would probably be surprised what could be patented though. I know I have been. Take the spary injection priciple that Aqua C uses. Anyone can spray water at water and make bubbles but they still got a patent on it.

[invincible569]

Originally posted by lduncan
How could you possible patent a biological process? I suppose there are all sorts of rediculously vague patents, but i don't think it would be possible to patent a biological process. The only way would be to patent the particular molecule for use in a biological process... come to think of it would that even be possible?

Layton


Same way a pharmacuetical company patents. Such as Viagra. And Randy is right, it doesnt have to be exact.. Viagra is already getting competitors. There's tons of steroids out there anyways that provide different results to animals. GH would be the safest, but most expensive. In humans such as bodybuilders, it actually makes your body regrow again. It regrows your muscles, bones, internal organs (thats why you see big stomach bodybuilders). And also why you see square jaw bodybuilders. Anyhow, there are TONS of steroids out there and new ones being made yearly. Randy doesnt have anything to worry about just as long he does his research and covers his grounds. If im not mistaken, the hardest part would be to legalize this. Thats if this is what he plans on doing.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For a chemical, one can patent the chemical itself (if no one has ever made or used it before) and the use of that chemical for a particular application. I have both sorts of patents on pharmaceuticals. I don't want to give any details on how I might try to patent this invention, but the legality of using it is not an issue as the compounds involved are not restricted.

[bigzman]

Randy,

Have you used this miracle chemical yet to test? If so did it do as you say?

Regards,
ZC

[greenfishies]

one really long drawn out tease...:D
I can't stand it anymore...lol

[ericp351]

I would love to test this chemical...

Eric...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Have you used this miracle chemical yet to test? If so did it do as you say?


It isn't a miracle. :D

I have not tested it on a coral, but in some preliminary tests that I don't want to disclose, it did what I was hoping it would do at less than 1 ppm in the water.

[bigzman]

Randy,

I know you can't disclose in any testing info. When do you plan to test on Coral's? If you do test on coral's will you be posting the results?

Regards,
ZC

[bigzman]

Randy,

Will this wonder product also supply other supplements?

Regards,
ZC

[qwiksilver]

If this increases growth at regular light intensity, would you be able to keep sps at less intense lighting levels and still recieve decent results, or would it only work at elevated lighting levels. (Halides verse NO)

On a side note: anyone ever dumped creatine monohydrate in their reef. If it increases cell size in muscles for humans, what will it do for LPS or softies?:lol:

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Will this wonder product also supply other supplements?


Nope, it doesn't supply anything, unless it is formulated with other compounds (which it may well end up being for commercial sale). :)

I do not believe that it will help corals grow under lower light, although that is a possibility.

[SpicyBalls]

are you taking investments? i want in on this hot stuff! haha... just kidding good luck with it..

[gpajon]

Ok Randy I am drooling here. When more or less can we expect to see this product?

It isn't nice to tease you know!

Gon

[SpicyBalls]

you're a genius! can you focus your next effort on receding hair? there's products out there already, but they dont' seem to work... thanks... hehe.. just kidding, we need your focus more in the aquarium industry.. i dont' mind being a bald aquarist...

[jdieck]

Hey Spicy.. You are not the only one!!

Signed.
Goldielocks

[jdieck]

Yeah. make it not only for receding but also to re-populate

Signed.
Goldielocks

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Actually, I've been busy the past few years developing an antiobesity drug, so hair growth will have to wait. :D It just entered human clinical trials. Here are the press releases:

http://www.peptimmune.com/pep080904.htm

"Peptimmune Announces Start of Phase I Trial for Obesity

August 9, 2004

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. - Peptimmune, Inc. a privately held biotechnology company, announced that physicians have treated the first participant in a clinical trial to evaluate the safety, tolerability and pharmacokinetics of GT389-255, a lipase inhibitor conjugated to a fat binding polymer for the treatment of obesity.

The Phase I single ascending dose (SAD) double blind placebo controlled randomized study will involve 48 healthy male volunteers who will receive the drug in six escalating dose cohorts. Later in 2004, the SAD study will be followed by a multiple ascending dose Phase I study (MAD). If Phase I development is successful, Peptimmune anticipates launching a Phase II trial in patients with obesity in 2005.

GT389-255 is a novel conjugate of a pancreatic lipase inhibitor and a fat binding hydrogel polymer. It acts within the gastro-intestinal tract to prevent fat digestion and is expected to have fewer side-effects than currently marketed therapies. The reduction in caloric intake and lowering of fat absorption may lead to weight loss, with potential concomitant improvement in both diabetic and cardiovascular risk profiles. GT389-255 has been evaluated in a number of preclinical studies, including investigational new drug-enabling toxicology studies. Peptimmune licensed GT389-255 from Genzyme Corporation earlier this year.

"The commencement of this clinical trial is an important milestone for the development of GT389-255 and for the company," stated Thomas Mathers, President of Peptimmune. "The goal for GT389-255 is the development of a lipase inhibitor/fat binder that provides inhibition of fat absorption and associated weight loss, but mitigates the gastrointestinal side effects associated with undigested trigylerides in the colon".

Obesity is nearing epidemic proportions in the developed world. The prevalence of obesity is increasing worldwide, with 2003 World Health Organization estimates that over 300 million people are affected. Since 1980, the number of adults in the US has doubled and the number of obese teens has tripled. Obesity is associated with an increased risk of serious metabolic diseases, including cardiovascular disease, Type 2 diabetes, hypertension, stroke, dyslipidemia, and osteoarthritis. Approximately 300,000 deaths per year are attributed to being overweight or obese. Obesity exerts a significant burden on the health care system.

Diet and exercise alone have failed to treat this growing epidemic. Currently approved pharmacological therapies for weight loss have had limited success due to insufficient efficacy and burdensome, unpleasant side effects and safety concerns. New therapies with improved tolerability and fewer side effects are needed not only to treat obesity, but also to prevent the significant co-morbidities associated with it, such as diabetes, hypertension and cardiovascular disease. "

and

http://www.peptimmune.com/pep051004.htm

"Peptimmune is Granted Exclusive License from Genzyme to Develop and Commercialize Treatment for Metabolic Diseases including Obesity

May 10, 2004

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. - Genzyme Corporation and Peptimmune, Inc. today announced that Genzyme has granted an exclusive worldwide license to Peptimmune to develop and market a Genzyme investigational drug candidate for the treatment of obesity and other metabolic disease indications. Peptimmune plans to file an IND with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to begin clinical trials of the drug later this year.

Under the agreement, Genzyme grants Peptimmune exclusive rights to develop, manufacture and commercialize GT389-255, in exchange for royalties, in addition to shared milestones and payments if the program is partnered further. Financial details were not disclosed.

"The acquisition of a product in the metabolic disease field that could enter the clinic in 2004 broadens and diversifies Peptimmune's pipeline," stated Tom Mathers, president of Peptimmune. "It accelerates our evolution from a research and discovery stage company, to a fully integrated biopharmaceutical company. The prospect of a new treatment for obesity offers hope for the millions of people suffering from this worldwide epidemic."

The investigational drug candidate, GT389-255, has a dual mechanism of action, serving as a pancreatic lipase inhibitor and a fat-binder. It acts within the gastro-intestinal tract to prevent fat digestion and is expected to have fewer side-effects than currently marketed therapies. GT389-255 has been evaluated in a number of preclinical studies, including investigational new drug-enabling toxicology studies.

"We have discovered a very innovative treatment for obesity that has the potential to address a very serious and growing worldwide public health problem," stated Ted Sybertz, Ph.D., senior vice president and general manager of Genzyme Drug Discovery and Development. "However, because of its broad physician call-point, obesity is not a strategic fit for Genzyme. Given Peptimmune's experienced management team, clinical development expertise in both autoimmune and metabolic disease, and their commitment to moving this program forward, we think they are an excellent partner."

The Genzyme drug discovery effort that developed the anti-obesity program has drawn upon the company's extensive expertise in developing compounds to treat metabolic disease and its world-renowned reputation in polymer chemistry. Two polymer products have been brought to market, Renagel® (sevelamer hydrochloride), a calcium-free, metal-free phosphate binder for patients with end-stage renal disease, and WelChol® (colesevelum hydrocholoride), a cholesterol-lowering agent. A third polymer, tolevamer, has recently completed Phase 2 clinical trials for the treatment of C. difficile associated diarrhea. These polymer therapies are not absorbed and all act within the GI tract.

Obesity - An Expanding Epidemic

Obesity is a global healthcare issue that is associated with an increased risk of serious metabolic diseases, including cardiovascular disease, Type 2 diabetes, hypertension, stroke, dyslipidemia, and osteoarthritis. Published prevalence rates indicate that more than 180 million people in the United States and Europe are obese, and the number of obese individuals continues to increase dramatically worldwide. A 1999 article published in the Journal of the American Medical Association estimates that there are some 300,000 deaths per year in the United States that are attributed to overweight and obesity. According to data released by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, the direct medical costs to the U.S. population that were attributed to obesity totaled $117 billion in 2000.

About Genzyme

Genzyme Corporation is a global biotechnology company dedicated to making a major positive impact on the lives of people with serious diseases. The company's broad product portfolio is focused on rare genetic disorders, renal disease, osteoarthritis and immune-mediated diseases, and includes an industry-leading array of diagnostic products and services. Genzyme's commitment to innovation continues today with research into novel approaches to cancer, heart disease, and other areas of unmet medical need. More than 6,300 Genzyme employees in offices around the globe serve patients in over 80 countries.

About Peptimmune

Peptimmune, Inc. is a privately held biotechnology company focused on development of therapeutics for the treatment of autoimmune and metabolic diseases. The company is led by an experienced management team with a track record of building commercial biotechnology companies. Peptimmune has one product in clinical trials for the treatment of pemphigus vulgaris, and a pipeline of late stage preclinical products for the treatment of autoimmune and metabolic diseases including, multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis and obesity. For information, access our website at http://www.peptimmune.com. "

[Hoggn]

Boy if you can get this to pass FDA approval then that will be great... Stinks the company isn't public, if so I would buy up some stock...

[SALTFISHDUDE]

this would be really interesting and I would definitely buy it as long as it was completely safe. Keep us posted!

[beemer]

jerod

[bigzman]

So randy any news on this wonder product? Is it holding up well in tests.

Regards,
Zuriel

[onefin]

Boy i'd give it a shot Randy.

[Ken Sellick]

Hi Randy
This sounds interesting for frag farmers.
Please keep me posted

[Tutmos]

Six months since the poll, anything new?

Kevin

[bigzman]

Randy,

At least let us know if you are still persuing this product. We are waiting on this.

Regards,
ZC

[carpetride]

Thought I would bring this back to the top for any updates??

[thrlride]

Doesn't look good. Randy hasn't posted on it since August...

[bigzman]

thrlride,

I think he gave up. Well don't thru away that CA reactor.

Regards,
ZC

[Aquaguru]

I would be cool if he went thriugh with it and made it a product of his own. Tons of money would be swimming in.

[kevensquint]

I only see one problem,we always get the good stuff here in canada like 3 years after its available to you guys,if it works I'm moving to Boston.

[reefdood]

I'd like to know of any progress as well. Since I've been considering HGH for an additive for my tank, a legal supplement that dosen't cost $300 from a shady screen name would be perfect. ;)

[Stevan]

What's the harm in getting a patent anyway? Even if it's not a commercial success as others following on you patented line of development might be and you'd have prior claim.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What's the harm in getting a patent anyway?

Money, lots of it.

I had a miscommunication with someone that was going to test the idea, and we didn't get the test started. I need to get back to him about what to do now. So the idea has not yet had a good test. :)

[bigzman]

Wow. So it still an Idea? Good. Thanks for keeping hope alive.

[veng68]

Update?

Cheers,
Vic [veng68]

[bigzman]

Randy,

Any luck on frist test?

Regards,
ZC

[woowoodengy]

just found the post and hopeing for updates

[Aquaguru]

So lets hear it whats been going on in the labs there. I really hope that it does work and that he goes keeps trying. It will change the hobby forever and might even lower the cost of corals since they will be fragging quicker and more often.

[DrBDC]

That would be great, get a frag and have a colony twice as fast! It may crash the economy! ;) Actually it would have an impact but all advances do and that's how the markets adapt. Eager to hear!

[Shoestring Reefer]

I would have voted, "no, because I keep softies". But cool stuff, very cool.

[deansreef]

RANDY,

Any updates?

[Travis L. Stevens]

For me, this would be a great addition. I am a person that likes to buy something small to watch it grow. My biggest problem is I have thing knocking stuff over all the time. If the product could be used for a short period of time to get the corals to grow larger quicker to naturally bond itself to a "base" and you can see this happen quickly (mainly for personal enjoyment) and then quit using the product until you have something else new, than it is well worth it. I have refrained from voting until further progress has been made.

[Lunchbucket]

i missed this the 1st time around...so glad it got bumped.

what is up Randy?

Lunchbucket

[LobsterOfJustice]

I'd be very interested in this. I just finished sophomore year in high school, and I know I'll be moving away in two years and every time I think about my tank it's kind of discouraging. I know my tank will get nowhere close to how I want it to look in two years. If I had four though...

[elephen]

I would use it :)

[Turtlesteve]

Looking forward to seeing test results on this mystery compound.

CA?

Steve

[Fliger]

Hi Randy, did anything happen with this?

[JohnS_323]

Wow Fliger, how many pages back did you have to go for this one?!? I'm glad you did. I missed this one earlier.

An update would be great. I'd love to use it my frag tank to boost growth.

[Fliger]

Hi John, it actually came up because of a new product and some folks wondered if there were similarities. Here's a thread but there is more info on other reefing websites.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=703880

[carpetride]

I thought I would dig this one up and see if you have any updates?

[NoSchwag]

Does this product have anything to do with strontium by any chance? I am seeing with my own eyes the effects of it on coralline and sps coral.

[SunnyX]

Anything new?

[thrlride]

The originator hasn't posted in almost a year, I'll bet it is dead in the water.

[ejmeier]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6704961#post6704961 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thrlride
The originator hasn't posted in almost a year, I'll bet it is dead in the water.
I wouldn't say that. He posted only a few months ago and had this to say: (different thread)
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6119961#post6119961 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
FWIW, the compound that I have been considering may be susceptible to being skimmed out faster than would make it useful in some systems, and I'm still considering what to do about that.

[DrBDC]

???? Randy Holmes Farley started this thread.

[carpetride]

What the heck all those post are mis-dated

[abfleck]

updates?

[DrBDC]

This thread is probably just a sociology study to see how many people would bite at the elusive "better tank! :D


That or a drunk bet at how long a thread like this will last and how many times dug up out of the archives. :lol:

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We got bogged down with the likelihood of it being removed by a skimmer in tests on skimming. It still hasn't been tested on coral growth rates. Remember, I'm used to working in drug development, where fast is 7 years from invention to market. :D

[holeinone1972]

Did he say DRUGS????


:smokin: :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:

:D

[RichConley]

Randy, I'm local. If you need any more guinea pigs, just send me a BRS Pm.

[Obi-dad]

Randy, even if it is removed by skimming, it would be worth it to me to just run the skimmer at night or even just once a week to grow out frags, then when the desired growth is achieved go back to full-time skimming. I bet there are a lot of people who would be willing to do it that way. I also would be willing to test this.

[REEF-DADDY]

Hell you could have a skimmerless grow out tank. No fish and light feeding for the corals only. perfect!

[john baker]

Hi Randy I would be very interested in your product if and when it is avaliable, as Iam in Australia we would have to make certyain that it could pass customs. Please keep me posted.

[ejmeier]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6710164#post6710164 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
It still hasn't been tested on coral growth rates.
Wouldn't it have been easier to just quick try it on a test tank first, just to see if your plan would actually work on increasing growth rates in the first place?

:confused:

Or are you just THAT certain that after all of the other testing, that it will perform as expected? :D Seems you could avoid having to go through any of this if it turns out to not do what it was designed to do.

[Shoestring Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6710164#post6710164 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
We got bogged down with the likelihood of it being removed by a skimmer in tests on skimming. It still hasn't been tested on coral growth rates. I run skimmerless, lots of people do. I'm not personally interested in the product, but think it would be great if you could make it happen.

Oh, I didn't vote, the reason why I wouldn't use it is I'm happy with my growth rates.

[LFSmarineguy]

Randy needs to make sure the substance won't have any long term effects on corals such as Polyp redness/ Irritable polyp syndrome/ receding polyp line/ polyp leakage/ or mood swings. I would like to avoid polyp leakage. several thousand polyps leaking at once sounds like a mess. Keep us posted as things progress I'd like to know how this ends up.

[tkeracer619]

I wouldnt use it b/c I like to let mother nature run it's course more or less. It would be like buying tomatoes....were these gassed?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wouldn't it have been easier to just quick try it on a test tank first, just to see if your plan would actually work on increasing growth rates in the first place?

I don't want to go into all the details, but I was coordinating with someone who would run the croal growth tests, and he wanted to do the skimmer test first, perhaps because his setup would have involved skimming. In any case, I'll let folks know when there is anything to report. :)

As to the liklihood of succes, I really don't know. It is an educated hope. :D

[Hoggn]

Your hope is more then most people could dream of doing... Good Luck!

[ChickenCannoneer]

Any updates?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, not yet. Sorry. :D

[newreefbishop]

Its been 5 months....hoping for something I have a new tank and if this would theoretically speed up maturity process....I would definately stash money from the wife to pay for it....

[newreefbishop]

Its been 5 months....hoping for something I have a new tank and if this would theoretically speed up maturity process....I would definately stash money from the wife to pay for it....

[marinelife]

I am skimmerless also so I would not be effected by it being skimmed out

[Genetics]

Not to bring up a dead horse and beat it again....

[sahin]

Hmmm...what happened to this experiment? Was it unsuccessful? Successful???

[plancton]

Randy, even if the product does not work it is still worth patenting because a good deal of people would buy it and that should cover the expenses. I was one of those fools who tried the exotic aquarium sunbrites.

I do have more hope on your product, I would try it.